Russian ex-PM Nemtsov assassinated

[CCIP]

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31669061

I'm as disturbed by this today as I am saddened by the loss of Nimoy. While I can't proclaim myself as a fan of Nemtsov and am wary of his politics, he was a major surviving anti-Putin opposition figure, and was murdered days before a major protest march - planned to protest, among other things, the efforts to jail and silence the other major opposition figure, Navalny. It also cuts close personally, unfortunately, because a close family friend, opposition politician Galina Starovoitova, was assassinated in a similar manner back in 1998.

The number of Russian public figures who criticized the Kremlin and are now dead by gunshot is beyond disturbing. I hope this gets attention in the West as well, since really it should. The Russian liberal opposition is looking worse by the day. Nemtsov is dead; Novodvorskaya died (from natural causes) last year; Navalny seems destined for jail; Kasparov is in exile. Not looking good.

[Oberon]

I dare say the usual pro-Putin excuses will come out, mafia or the more traditional western anti-Russian agents or the like. Nevertheless, like you say CCIP, the list of anti-Putin figures who have found themselves suddenly not living is rather suspicious.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/37775915.jpg

[vienna]

I wonder how long before Putin pulls a Dubbya and seeks to tie the assassination to pro-Ukraine elements as a justification to step up military action against Kiev. This could be his Reichstag fire...


<O>

[Onkel Neal]

I wonder how long before Putin pulls a Dubbya and seeks to tie the assassination to pro-Ukraine elements as a justification to step up military action against Kiev. This could be his Reichstag fire...


<O>

Ummmm....yeah. Way to go. Bush didn't have opposition Democrats murdered :stare: what a comparison

[Oberon]

I wonder how long before Putin pulls a Dubbya and seeks to tie the assassination to pro-Ukraine elements as a justification to step up military action against Kiev. This could be his Reichstag fire...


<O>

I dunno, I was expecting a bomb attack at the Kremlin while a group of school children are visiting.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Storm_Rising)

[vienna]

Ummmm....yeah. Way to go. Bush didn't have opposition Democrats murdered :stare: what a comparison

I wasn't saying Dubbya killed anyone to get his way. I was merely pointing out this could be another case of a politician manipulating a situation for his own ends...

Like I just said, I'm not saying Dubbya killed anybody...

...unless, of course, one ignores the nearly 4,500 US military personnel killed in Iraq...


<O>

[mapuc]

So this "free speech" in Russia as some one mentioned in another thread is nothing more than a wild...

I have to confess had for a moment the same thought as Vienna.

Markus

Edit
This is a part of an article from a swedish news paper

"Putin: a provocation

Russian President Vladimir Putin believes that the murder has a provocative character. Russian news agency Interfax reports that the president announced through his press secretary to the murder look like a provocation, perfectly suited to the day before a planned opposition demonstration on Sunday.

- Putin is clear that the murder bears all the hallmarks of a contract murder and that it is extremely provocative"

[Onkel Neal]

I wasn't saying Dubbya killed anyone to get his way. I was merely pointing out this could be another case of a politician manipulating a situation for his own ends...

Like I just said, I'm not saying Dubbya killed anybody...

...unless, of course, one ignores the nearly 4,500 US military personnel killed in Iraq...


<O>

I think is a case of a dictator murdering his opponents.

By coincidence, I listened to an interview with some Russian minister who opposes Putin, and he has been banished from Russia. Cannot remember his name, but he says he was the only person in the Duma to vote against the Crimea land grab.

God, Russia, will you ever learn?:-?

[Stealhead]

I think that the typical Russian is busy just making ends meet.

[Onkel Neal]

I have nothing but warm wishes for the typical Russian, God bless him. But if he doesn't get his government under control, he may find himself in a bad situation.

Bush dragged us into a war that was a mistake, with badly underestimated consequences, but there was plenty of opposition and protest here. And no one was murdered. I bet if you ask the typical American, he would like to see Russia secure and prosperous. I keep hearing that Russians are feeling humiliated because of the collapse of the USSR. They were pretty darn triumphant in 1991 when the earned their freedom from the tyranny of totalitarianism, why do they now think there's any humiliation from that?

I will admit, I cannot understand that kind of thinking, at all.

[Aktungbby]

BRING BACK THE CZAR!http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Nicholas_II_by_Boissonnas_%26_Eggler_c1909.jpg/640px-Nicholas_II_by_Boissonnas_%26_Eggler_c1909.jpg http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/images/nicholas1.jpgall executed-including the kids: the start of a consistent modus operendi...:dead::timeout:

[Oberon]

They were pretty darn triumphant in 1991 when the earned their freedom from the tyranny of totalitarianism, why do they now think there's any humiliation from that?

Um...not all of them. A significant portion were quite angry at the collapse of the Soviet Union and the decade of instability, corruption, economic failure and hardship that followed. Russia from the early 1990s until the mid-2000s was a very poor place, pretty much run by the mafia with not even enough money to pay its armed forces, let alone help its people, with this kind of national collapse, from a nation which was the first to send a man into space, is it little wonder that people found this new called 'freedom' and 'democracy' a little underwhelming.
Then along comes Putin, he kicks down the oligarchs, makes a show of dealing with corruption, presides over some of the greatest economic growth in Russia since the fall of the Berlin wall and protects Russia from internal and external concerns. I mean, look at the only other leader that Russia post-communism has had...this guy:

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/quickfix/0/0/9/160009_v1.jpg

And I don't count Medvedev as, try as he might, he was overshadowed by Putin in most, if not all, things he did.
Is it little wonder that Putin has gathered as much support as he has? Between his hard-man image, economic good fortune, removal of opponents and management of internal and external conflicts (Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine) he's been seen as the kind of man who will stand up for Russia.

Of course, he's also completely overplayed his hand, which goes against his otherwise normally careful playing style. I think he may have underestimated the Western Allies resolve on Ukraine and that has cost him pretty dearly at home. His political machinations have also become a lot more public which indicates that he's either so confident in his success that he can afford to be so reckless, or that whoever is pulling his strings is worried, because although Putin may be seen as many to be the leader, he is in turn likely controlled by a group of others, possibly the fabled siloviki or a mixture of those and chekists...either which way likely ex-KGB or military.

So yeah, TLDR, Putin is bad, but he's more effective than any of the other presidents Russia has had (All two of them) and also, in Russian eyes, better than the likes of Gorbachev who turned the throttle up on the Russian economic collapse (Don't get me wrong, I quite like Gorbie, but I'm a westerner, you tend to find when you cross over the border that the opinions on him change somewhat).

[CCIP]

Good post Oberon :yeah:

As for Russian democracy, it was a short-lived affair, two years at best - 1991-1993. It was killed in October of the latter year by none other than Yeltsin, in the name of retaining control and preventing a pro-communist parliament from impeaching him. Technically, they did impeach him, but under a constitution that Yeltsin refused to recognize. They held on to their elected mandate; he sent in the tanks. What resulted was a sad event of immense significance to the course of history ever since, but one that's nearly unknown in the west and no longer talked about in Russia.

This is why I was so up in arms recently about the issue of constitutional values in the Ukraine, where the overthrow of Yanukovich, inevitable as it was, probably did unspeakable damage to Ukrainian democracy. Yes, in October 1993, Yeltsin also saved Russia from a return to communist government. And in the process, he destroyed Russian democracy, by forcing through his own version of the constitution which completely threw out the system of checks and balances by making the executive branch supreme and giving himself the power of decree. Yeltsin, of course, wasn't the man to weild it. But when the right man came along, well, behold Tsar Putin! None of his powers are his invention. They were all inherited from Yeltsin's 1993 constitution, granted by the dozens of tank shells fired into the Duma who were still in emergency session, still busy impeaching him so that they could use their representational mandate to pass constitutional amendments which Yeltsin was vetoing. Now, that representational mandate is left meaningless, and communism was at last vanquished for good - not by representational democracy, but by establishing rule by decree and a regime where both legislative and judicial branches have no meaningful influence on politics.


At one time, Nemtsov seemed to be the man who'd inherit that power. An establishment man and a successful entrepreneur, he was heading for that office. Nemtsov was of no different persuasion from Yeltsin politically then. But he was an economic reformist with radical (by Russian standards) western market ideals. He didn't last in the limelight long as Russia collapsed into default in 1998. His replacement in the hierarchy seemed dull by comparison to the articulate, outspoken Nemtsov, and likely to last even less. His name was Vladimir Putin, and boy how wrong we were...

In the opposition too, Nemtsov always seemed an ill-fit, unpopular outsider. He was significant, more than anything, for being among the last notable anti-Putin figures standing. His death isn't politically significant - but very symbolic.

[Catfish]

Convenient for Putin somehow..
Murdered "as a provocation against Putin", or what Putin said?

Of course, what else could it be :nope:

[Jimbuna]

Some good debate here but my own opinion is that this event leads us all a step closer to a renewal of the cold war.

[Oberon]

Thanks CCIP.

I want to just reiterate, as I am sure that there will be those who will take my stance as condoning this affair. I am not pro-Putin.
Just going to put that right out there, straight off the bat. I like Russia, I like the people, the music, the designs of their military equipment, but I don't like where Putin and his masters are taking the Russian people, in particular the treatment of the press, homosexuals and political opposition and protests.

Having said that, I can understand why many would view Putin in a favourable light, Russia has always had a respect for strong leadership and Putin has the image of being a strong leader (as well as the fact that he has been seen to take on corruption and 'fat-cat' oligarchs, 'fighting the side of the little man' so to speak). Now how much of that image is real and how much is carefully crafted PR is open to debate, the economic sanctions and the slump in oil prices has exposed a soft underbelly to Russia that I think many in the west had been distracted from by Putins hardline image. I think that there is real concern in Russia at the highest level for the long term stability of the country and the possibility of another coup and/or civil war. This could be part of the reason for the current increase in funding to the Russian armed forces, helping to keep them on the side of the Kremlin whilst at the same time fixing some glaring issues that were exposed in Russian military maneuvers post-Cold War.
It's also a good PR move when you're banging the drum about NATO expansion and fascism on the rise in Western Europe (with the fascist elements in the Ukrainian uprising, and the likes of Golden Dawn in Greece) you can help keep the people divided in their opinion of you. So long as they are not united in anger then any protests can be dealt with by state security services and...well, means that have begun this thread. :nope:

It's no real surprise to say that this sort of political murder has been going on in Putins Russia for some time, those who don't die wind up either exiled (and dying) or in prison (and possibly dying). One only has to look at Litvinenko to see how far Putins masters are willing to go to keep their power secure. Ordinarily though it doesn't make the mainstream news, with the exception of Litvinenko, obviously, because of the location and nature of his demise. However, the fact that this has happened so overtly means that it's very hard for it to be demoted to the lower pages of the newspapers, and it does make me wonder just why whoever it is that is securing Putins power (be it Putin himself or those who have a vested interest to keep Putin where he is) is suddenly becoming a lot more overt in their methods. Is there a concern about Putins grip on power in the light of recent sanctions? Or is it more a disregard for the consequences? :hmmm: It is quite unusual. Certainly Putin has gone from a restrained figure from the shadows, using a scalpel to cut his way through problems, to jumping out into the spotlight with a sledgehammer. Is it a desire to flex Russias muscles, a show of force to the west that Russia is not to be messed with? Or is it designed for the Russian people, to help keep them and most importantly the Russian military, on Putins side?

Let's not forget, the Russian military is the key factor in any form of power in Russia. When the Tsar (I always want to write Czar...) was overthrown in 1917, it was because he'd lost the support of his military. The 1991 coup failed, partly because the soldiers who the Gang of Eight controlled, refused orders to fire on the crowd outside the White House (No, not that one, the other one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_%28Moscow%29)), and Yeltsin coup succeeded because he had control of the military and thus could fire tank shells into the White House.

http://www.mrc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/1993_Russia_WhiteHouse_fire.JPG

It is strange, I had heard snippets of the firing on the White House, but I had always associated it with the 1991 coup rather than anything after. I honestly did not realise there had been a crisis in 1993, and this helps fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge of modern Russia, so thank you CCIP for bringing that to my attention.

I wonder where it will all end, there's definitely an underground movement against Putin, as weakened as it is by the constant deaths or imprisonment of its various figureheads, but eventually that discontent is going to come onto the streets as violence, however since the military remains loyal to Putin, I suspect that it will be rather akin to Tiananmen square. :nope:

[Dmitry Markov]

CCIP, Nemtsov wasn't our PM - first vice-PM would be more correct.

Honestly speaking, I didn't follow his career since then. Just read a couple of interviews in GQ and somwhere else where he reveals himself as a bonvivant and a playboy.
Those people ( Young Reformers I mean) had their chance to demonstrate if they can do something worth speaking of in 90-s. That time they didn't achieve anything.

All I can see about him and his partners now are numerous meetings with a lot of speeches like "Everything is bad! We must take the power from Them!". But how can I know if they are better? They never did anything useful throughout their life.
There's a plenty of ways to do useful things to show people they can trust you. Look it's a much stronger position to say " I have done this and that and it was successful - I can do it better than the guys at power" than just to criticize and strike a heroical poses on camera being arrested by the police. But Nemtsov, Navalny and all their lot prefer the latter and thus would gather very little sympathy from people with rational common sence.

To provide you a sample of my views on what an oppositioner should really be, here is the right person:

Evgeny Roisman is an oppositioner too - but he shows a lot of constructive activity - he created a fund "The City without Drugs" - and for decades he and his men led the most active struggle against that evil in Ekaterinburg for decades. He has earned respect of people and has won elections despite of what local authorities were doing to prevent it - now he's a mayor of Ekaterinburg.

I never like professional politics and would never support any opposition whose aim is just taking a power - and there are not very much really deedful people in modern Russian opposition. Boris Nemtsov wasn't the one whom I can call a worthy man. I would never vote for him or his party.
Nevertheless a man was killed and it is sad.

I see a strange chain of coincidences:

We have Olympics - there is coup in Kiev.
We have a May Day - they burn antifascists in Odessa.
When western media show neutral position towards Donetsk and Lugansk and EU is hesitating on whether to impose sanctions or not - there's a plane being downed.
When a ceasefire agreement is signed and EU is hesitating on imposing new sanctions - there are bomb in Harkov and Nemtsov is being killed.

"cui bono" ?

[Dmitry Markov]

Oberon, in October 1993 me and my friends in school had a strong intention to go and see how the White House would be taken with the tanks and specnaz. We were even standing at the metro station. But after short discussion we agreed that it would be very dangerous ( we were only 13 those days). Later we knew about all those spectators and passersby killed by snipers just like in Kiev and we were happy we made a decision not to go.

I remember that at that age seeing tanks and APC's on our streets, military men in uniform with all their guns and stuff - that was exciting and very interesting... How stupid we were...

Hate revolutions and don't like revolutioners.

[Onkel Neal]

Um...not all of them. A significant portion were quite angry at the collapse of the Sovie).

Good post, Oberon, thanks. Not at all TL: DR

[Oberon]

Oberon, in October 1993 me and my friends in school had a strong intention to go and see how the White House would be taken with the tanks and specnaz. We were even standing at the metro station. But after short discussion we agreed that it would be very dangerous ( we were only 13 those days). Later we knew about all those spectators and passersby killed by snipers just like in Kiev and we were happy we made a decision not to go.

I remember that at that age seeing tanks and APC's on our streets, military men in uniform with all their guns and stuff - that was exciting and very interesting... How stupid we were...

Hate revolutions and don't like revolutioners.

Ah, youth. An urge to see something exciting, but thankfully tempered by common sense.
Yes, I was once a revolutionary, someone who desired to overthrow the system, but then I came to the realisation that most times this has happened in history the system that has replaced it has been as bad as or even worse than the original. The only example where this has not been the case that I can think of, really, is the USA although one could argue that aside from its lack of a constitionual monarch it has developed upon similar political lines to the United Kingdom in broad terms (underlining this for my American friends who are scrambling to their keyboards to mount a robust defence on how different the UK and US political systems are). Both are democratic nations with an elected government, although our figurehead is technically the Queen, practically it's the Prime Minister.
But I digress...yes, revolutions are often well meaning in nature but full of ideas and less of actual proper plans. It's like Sun Tzu said 'The victorious warrior wins first and then goes to war'. So my revolutionary streak has tempered somewhat by the fires of reality, although I still stand for bridging the divide between the general populace and those that rule over them, which is not an easy task when the distance between the two sides keeps growing. :/\\!!
It must have indeed been an exciting thing to watch on television at such an age, but in hindsight we realise the greater implications of such images, if I were to see tanks rolling on Whitehall on the news tonight I would be more scared than I would excited, despite my contempt for our current Prime Minister. The grass is not always greener on the other side so the saying goes.

I would disagree with your alluding to connections between events, the Olympics and the Ukraine...I think that these events are just that, events which have occurred, MH-17 can certainly be linked to the Ukrainian war, but as to who, what, and when, those links cannot really be drawn without running into some form of pro or anti-bias. Which is probably one of the reasons why the investigation into its shootdown has been taking so long.
I do agree with your wish for a better form of opposition, and in a manner of speaking we have a similar-ish situation in the UK with UKIP. There are matters which UKIP want to address that do need addressing, but the way they've gone about campaigning, their viewpoint and their powerbase undermines their attempts to do so, plus it doesn't help that their ideas are too radical in nature and quite honestly if they did get into power they'd have absolutely no idea what to do with it. So as it was with Nemtsov perhaps? Many words, but no practical solutions.
I can sympathise. I have many words about the inequality of the capitalistic system, but I am aware that this same system is what allows me to type these words onto this board, and I am also all too aware that whilst I can see the problems, I cannot see the solutions, any ideas that may pass through my mind are oft too fantastic to be feasible, or would splatter aimlessly against the cold hard brick wall of reality. :/\\!!
Either which way, I hope that however things do settle out in Russia that they transition in as bloodless a manner as possible, they do say that the 'tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants' but it's of little consolation with the blood is that of your son, daughter, mother, father, brother or sister. :nope:

Good post, Oberon, thanks. Not at all TL:DR

Ah, good good. I do tend to waffle sometimes, as when I'm typing I tend to think of answers to my questions and question to my answers and write my thoughts down accordingly. :)

[Onkel Neal]

Let's not forget, the Russian military is the key factor in any form of power in Russia. When the Tsar (I always want to write Czar...) was overthrown in 1917, it was because he'd lost the support of his military. The 1991 coup failed, partly because the soldiers who the Gang of Eight controlled, refused orders to fire on the crowd outside the White House (No, not that one, the other one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House_%28Moscow%29)), and Yeltsin coup succeeded because he had control of the military and thus could fire tank shells into the White House.

http://www.mrc.org/sites/default/files/uploads/1993_Russia_WhiteHouse_fire.JPG

It is strange, I had heard snippets of the firing on the White House, but I had always associated it with the 1991 coup rather than anything after. I honestly did not realise there had been a crisis in 1993, and this helps fill in some of the gaps in my knowledge of modern Russia, so thank you CCIP for bringing that to my attention.

I wonder where it will all end, there's definitely an underground movement against Putin, as weakened as it is by the constant deaths or imprisonment of its various figureheads, but eventually that discontent is going to come onto the streets as violence, however since the military remains loyal to Putin, I suspect that it will be rather akin to Tiananmen square. :nope:


:) I was in Moscow during this incident. Was staying in Prospekt Zhukova. The TV went off the air, and we thought, uh-oh, revolution.:dead:

[soopaman2]

This government is getting more Stalinesque by the day.

Not my problem, have fun with that crap Europe.

[CCIP]

Just to clarify, the PM thing was a typo in the heat of the moment - couldn't edit it, sorry about that :dead:

[Oberon]

This government is getting more Stalinesque by the day.

Not my problem, have fun with that crap Europe.


You've heard of this little thing called ICBMs, haven't you? :hmmm:

[soopaman2]

You've heard of this little thing called ICBMs, haven't you? :hmmm:



We got as many as they do if not more, and if we both launch the entire world goes into nuclear winter, therefore neither side will launch.

He will just terrorize his neighbors like he has been.

[CCIP]

The ICBMs may be a one-time-only deal, but the other problem is that we now live in a global economy, and a hostile Russia affects the life of everyone in America whether they like it or not, and although not as significantly as it might, I think it's too early to say "phew, glad I'm not dealing with that!" You are, unfortunately, even if you don't know it.

As for Nemtsov, two points to raise

-Firstly, I think it's safe to say that most Russians in fact did not care for him and, as I said before, he was politically largely irrelevant. For most people, it's a story of a leopard and his spots - no matter how hard he tried, Nemtsov was destined to be seen as an establishment figure, a former governor and vice-PM, someone who got extremely powerful and wealthy during the 1990s (and there was no 'clean' way of getting powerful and wealthy in the 1990s). Just as the average Russian didn't feel any sympathy for Khodorkovsky, most feel no real sympathy for Nemtsov. Likewise, most of the liberal intelligentsia would view him with suspicion. Much of Nemtsov's later organizational activity was actually pretty admirable, and he acted both sincerely and fearlessly, that I don't doubt - but I don't think he ever had any hope of having political power again. I don't think Russians would ever trust him again.

-Secondly, the more I look at it, the more I see it as plausible that neither Putin nor anybody in his circle had anything to do with this assassination. It's not politically convenient to them, even. But I don't think it absolves them of responsibility - indirectly, Putin's regime is very centrally responsible for this. The current Russian regime has cultivated an atmosphere of "patriotism", of a hysterical nationalist paranoia, bolstering and supporting its various "loyalists" and heaping on propaganda against the "fifth column", giving impressions of a conspiracy against Russia at every corner. Meanwhile, opposition figures are often the whipping boys of this new culture, while having absolutely no protection from the government - even if Nemtsov's case is actually pursued to the end (which I doubt), most cases are never pursued; some are taken to a "token" conclusion (for example, the various assassinations by "some angry Chechens" who are then jailed, disregarding the puppet strings leading directly back to "Hero of Russia" Ramzan Kadyrov), and others are simply dismissed. Nemtsov himself reported threats against him to the police, to no avail - while the prosecution seems to have ample time and investigative resources for bringing dubious cases against opposition figures, bloggers, dancing feminists, and other "enemies of the state". The Russian state today is a paranoid entity that feeds off this climate. Its propaganda funnels hatred towards ideological scapegoats. And the regime, even if it didn't order the killing of Nemtsov, is very much culpable in what happened to him, no matter who did the deed.

[Betonov]

How do we really know it was an assasination by Putin.

Gambling problems or loan shark default, age long vendetta, extra marital affair gone wrong, hell, this is Russia, he could have been gunned down on the orders of Putins opposition to make a martyr out of him.

People die for less in the east. A lot less.

[mapuc]

How do we really know it was an assasination by Putin.

Gambling problems or loan shark default, age long vendetta, extra marital affair gone wrong, hell, this is Russia, he could have been gunned down on the orders of Putins opposition to make a martyr out of him.

People die for less in the east. A lot less.

Earlier today I heard a Danish expert on Russia saying-when he was asked if Putin could have been behind this-This is not the way Putin use to "Silence" his opponent.

He use to send them to jail and some years in eksile

Markus

[CCIP]

How do we really know it was an assasination by Putin.

Gambling problems or loan shark default, age long vendetta, extra marital affair gone wrong, hell, this is Russia, he could have been gunned down on the orders of Putins opposition to make a martyr out of him.

People die for less in the east. A lot less.

Well, see my post as I noted.

I have 0 doubt that it is political, and quite directly related to Putin's course of policy, though it doesn't mean Putin ordered it.

As far as martyrdom, he's an unlikely martyr. Although shocking, his death is not going to galvanize the opposition or change anything - rather, the reaction so far is a very depressed, "this again..." one. The Russian liberal opposition is so beaten-down at this point that the only thing this will bring to them is more despair. So in that sense, despite the claims of "provocation" - this isn't necessarily a good thing for Putin, but it's certainly not a completely inconvenient one.

But then it's just another twist in the downward spiral, as the opposition is now enjoying more than 20 years of being choked and systematically dismantled by the current regime. Nearly exactly a year ago, there was a far more significant twist, when the remaining independent media in Russia was decimated, with multiple shutdowns, state takeovers, and regulatory changes over the course of March 2014. Again, it's one of those things that barely registered in the West and is barely discussed in Russia.

[nikimcbee]

:) I was in Moscow during this incident. Was staying in Prospekt Zhukova. The TV went off the air, and we thought, uh-oh, revolution.:dead:

I was there shortly after that! ...on study a broad, oops I mean study abroad, wait answer C "all of the above.":D:rock:

[Onkel Neal]

You've heard of this little thing called ICBMs, haven't you? :hmmm:

You've heard of this little thing called SDI, haven't you? :D

[Oberon]

You've heard of this little thing called SDI, haven't you? :D

Indeed, Russian invention wasn't it? The ABM side at least. :03:

http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/42/9c60fbe20ea9e22e457dd89f15168442.jpg

Still, Russia is Americas neighbour too. :03: Just ask Sarah Palin. :dead:

[CCIP]

http://i.imgur.com/x3EmdxM.jpg

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

CCIP, Here in Finland scholars have argued that Kremlin is unlikely culprit in this murder. They said, that its against Mr. Putin's interest to terminate Mr. Nemtsov in so public way. In their opinion this is more likely to be result of Mr. Nemtsov's participation in anti-corruption actions. What you think about this?

[CCIP]

CCIP, Here in Finland scholars have argued that Kremlin is unlikely culprit in this murder. They said, that its against Mr. Putin's interest to terminate Mr. Nemtsov in so public way. In their opinion this is more likely to be result of Mr. Nemtsov's participation in anti-corruption actions. What you think about this?

Probably true - I'm sure he had enemies that way. It's also just as likely to be angry nationalists seeking to make an example out of someone who tries to expose and criticize Russian involvement in the Ukraine.

Nevertheless, it's Putin's regime that fosters both criminal officials and extreme "patriots", giving them relative safety to operate as they do, and no safety to those who are in their crosshairs, so to speak.

Nemtsov's hands were far from clean too, of course. I'm sure there were reasons other than his opposition to Putin that he'd become a target.

[CCIP]

Some interesting details emerged today, since Russia's TV Center channel got a hold of traffic camera footage of the killing, which are not much to look at since the camera is very far from the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqFdS332BQg

In a nutshell though: it seems likely that the killer was alone, and had ambushed Nemtsov by waiting on a flight of stairs leading down below the bridge, which Nemtsov was walking on with his girlfriend, probably on his way home which was known and tracked by the killers. He seems to have jumped out after Nemtsov passed and shot him in the back from close range. The shooting took place as a snow-clearing truck was passing by, partially obscuring the scene from the camera. The drivers of the truck witnessed it, and the killer spent a short while behind the truck, before a car sped by and picked him up.

For the next few minutes, the scene was far from sanitary and secured. The truck remained stopped and the girl who was with Nemtsov went to seek help from the driver. Multiple pedestrians passed by, most walking past without doing anything, only a few stopping. Nobody seemed to provide medical help to Nemtsov, although one assumes that they would've quickly realized that he was shot in the head. Two cars then stopped and left the scene. One abruptly stopped, and two men who were on the scene among the passers-by seemed to talk to the driver, then suddenly ran down the staircase from which the killer is assumed to have ambushed Nemtsov. The car and the snow-clearing vehicle then left the scene. Police arrived about 2 minutes later, and the men who ran down the stairs re-emerged and approached the police.

Lots of things will emerge, I'm sure, but it's going to be a confusing investigation. It's very possible that the crime scene would've been tampered with in the 12 or so minutes between Nemtsov's killing and the arrival of police on the scene. Most of the witnesses appear to also have left the scene and may not come forward. It also seems puzzling to me that it took police more than 12 minutes to arrive on the scene, despite the killing taking place less than 500m from Red Square and on a major bridge landmark, with multiple witnesses and immediately next to a city services vehicle. Imagine someone getting shot at Freedom Plaza in DC, and there's no police or Secret Service on the scene for 12 minutes - seems odd, huh? Even assuming that the two guys that ran to the stairs were plainclothes officers, that's still 8 or 9 minutes, and on their initial approach to the scene they don't seem to be acting like security officers would be expected to. What took them so long is one of my questions for sure!

Another question mark pops up over this: the next morning, police have searched Nemtsov's apartment and confiscated "all documents relating to Nemtsov's political and business activities". While one can't argue about the legitimate need for those in the investigation, you do have to wonder about it at least a little - shortly before his death, Nemtsov was promising to release documents proving Russia's involvement in the Ukraine. I would not be surprised if they don't see the light of day. And that wouldn't be the first time - back in the early 2000s, there was a spate of "sudden deaths" among MPs from a parliamentary commission set up to investigate the 1999 apartment bombings. Soon after the commission began raising alarm about possible FSB involvement (loudly denied by Putin), its members started dying...

Police, however, have already characterized the killing as "obviously planned" but "likely unprofessional", because professional killers would not have chosen such a public place full of witnesses and cameras.

[CCIP]

OH BOY

So, the day after the assassination, I wrote:

even if Nemtsov's case is actually pursued to the end (which I doubt), most cases are never pursued; some are taken to a "token" conclusion (for example, the various assassinations by "some angry Chechens" who are then jailed, disregarding the puppet strings leading directly back to "Hero of Russia" Ramzan Kadyrov), and others are simply dismissed.

Take a guess as to how long it took to lead back to this? :dead:

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31788073

The prime suspect, Zaur Dadayev, died yesterday in the Chechen capital Grozny, reportedly after being surrounded by police - being armed with two hand grenades, he allegedly threw one towards the police (of whom none were hurt) and used the second to kill himself. Two other suspects, both also Chechen nationals, were arrested in Ingushetia. (correction: I later found out that Dadaev was not the man killed, but one of the two captured - my bad, confusing early reports)

Here's the catch: Dadayev os not an angry nobody, but a deputy commander of the MVD (Interior Ministry) special battalion "North", essentially an armed police special unit, who participated in numerous operations in Chechnya. Chechnya's president, Ramzan Kadyrov, immediately issued vociferous denials that "a Chechen hero could've done something like this". Kadyrov personally issued numerous awards and honours to Dadayev for his military service before.

Some background on Kadyrov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzan_Kadyrov

Ramzan Kadyrov, the president of the Chechen People's Republic, which is a federal part of Russia, is the son of Ahmad Kadyrov, a former Chechen separatist warlord who later changed sides and was key to ending the Chechen conflict, becoming its first pro-Russian president - largely by killing, terrorizing, and silencing all the other warlords around. After he was assassinated in 2004, his son Ramzan embarked on a ruthless campaign to avenge his father's death and secure his grip on Chechnya. Fiercely loyal to Putin, he's received numerous awards from him, including the country's highest honour, "Hero of Russia". He oversaw the transformation of Chechnya from a war-destroyed ruin to a stable state, with its capital rebuilt as one of Russia's modern cities. Less known is the means he's used accomplished this in the highly unstable region - by conducting and maintaining what's effectively a reign of terror. Widespread of assassination, torture, and "disappearing" of people (and their families) continue in and around Chechnya. Among the victims of Kadyrov's terror are dozens of human rights activists, journalists, and rival politicians.

I can now say with absolute certainty that Nemtsov's murder was ordered by Kadyrov. It's effectively case closed for me - and case closed for Russia, because I now know that nothing will happen. Kadyrov will never be officially accused of it, not only because he's Putin's favourite sycophant and choir boy, but he's also THE guarantor of stability in Russia's North Caucasus. I've also gained a bit more respect for Nemtsov - if he was knowingly crossing Kadyrov, he was indeed a brave man.

I can already guess as to what happened. Nemtsov alleged that he had documents proving Russia's involvement in the Ukraine. Of all Russian figures, Kadyrov was one who had actually openly admitted that he'd sent his men to fight in the Ukraine (until toning it down later, probably on orders from Putin). There have been numerous reports of large numbers of Kadyrovite Chechens fighting on the Donetsk separatist side in the Ukraine. It is likely that this was Nemtsov's primary lead - and it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to think that a man like Dadaev, a high-ranking and experienced commander in a special Chechen interior forces unit, might've even been personally involved in that. Note that Nemtsov's supposed documents were, conveniently, seized as part of the subsequent search of his apartment by police, and nothing is known of them now. Note that, conveniently, the main suspect is now dead. Note that the "some angry Chechens" story is playing out almost identically to Anna Politkovskaya's, veteran Russian investigative journalist and the previous most notable person to cross Kadyrov with some compromising documents. She was a fierce critic of Russia's (and, by extension, Kadyrov's) human rights record in Chechnya and was in the process of compiling a significant report on Kadyrov's repressive campaign of intimidation, torture, and assassination in the wake of his father's death - when she, too, was assassinated by gunshots in Moscow. Yes, by "some angry Chechens" who are now in jail, and who are probably quite comfortable there - cause if you're a Kadyrovite, nobody will mess with you in a Russian jail (if they like all their body parts where they are). As for the "Hero of Russia" Kadyrov, he's as untouchable as Putin himself.

RIP Nemtsov. At this point, I've no doubt either about who is responsible for his killing and why, and no doubt that he will never receive justice :(

[Rockstar]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_03/RubyOswaldAP_468x407.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

Just in:
They released photos of the suspects.

http://i.imgur.com/N6uBSmJ.jpg

[Stealhead]

Grocho Marks and Abe Lincoln. I knew it all along.

[Rockstar]

Think someone brought up a question in another thread why the western business didnt help Russia after collapse of Soviet Union and why Germany doesnt do more business with Russia today.

Thing is, western business probably jumped in feet first but found out there is way too much risk, instability, mobbed up economy and corruption. On top of that what does Russia have to offer besides oil, timber and assassins for hire? Not alot of diversity in that portfolio.

[Betonov]

Damn you Russia

http://intelisoftbd.net/user-post/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/facepalm,.jpg

I tried to be the voice of reason on this forum but was sabotaged by the same people I defended :/\\!!

[Rockstar]

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/c29aac3cb802ca1867316d4dd75f2414.jpg

[CCIP]

Interesting side note - the day after the arrests, Russia awarded Kadyrov yet another of its highest awards, the "Order of Honour". Afterwards, Putin's spokesman Peskov for some reason felt compelled to go on air and proclaim the timing "a coincidence".

Totally not suspicious, right? :hmmm:


Meanwhile, as per BBC, Nemtsov evidently was a direct critic of Kadyrov:

"Everybody is already sick and tired of Ramzan's threats, but he is certain that [President] Putin will not let anyone touch him, so he is growing increasingly brazen every day,"

The two last clashed over Charlie Hebdo, where Nemtsov was one of those who spoke out over freedom of press, while Kadyrov was loudly incensed over "insults to the prophet" and declared those who called for Charlie Hebdo cartoons to be republished "his personal enemies" (he threatened the now-exiled Khodorkovsky in particular).
The angle being spun now is that the killers were devout Muslims, and attacked Nemtsov for religious reasons after becoming radicalized by some external force. (Correction, by the way - the senior Chechen security officer Dadaev was not the man killed, but one of the two arrested, having supposedly already confessed to the killing and his motives). However, Nemtsov was never a loud voice in that debate, and most of his criticism of Kadyrov was over other issues. It's especially sickening that the "Doctor of Islamic Studies" (honourary degree given to him by the Islamic university he had himself founded) and self-proclaimed "defender of Russia's Muslims" Kadyrov seems to suddenly have no trouble blaming religion to hide his own responsibility.

Otherwise, I would go as far as to say that the bombshell dropped by Putin today about Russia's role in Crimea is likely a strategic feint to distract public debate away from this. They're bungling the attempted cover-up badly. I'll be ashamed of the Russian public if they don't stand up collectively calling for Kadyrov's head after all this. Enough is enough.

[CCIP]

Thing is, western business probably jumped in feet first but found out there is way too much risk, instability, mobbed up economy and corruption. On top of that what does Russia have to offer besides oil, timber and assassins for hire? Not alot of diversity in that portfolio.

Here you're quite wrong. Both then and now, Russia's had a lot to offer - no less than Germany, to be sure. The lack of diversity now is actually a mistake made by Putin's regime, for which he's yet to pay. Other than the natural resources you mentioned, Russia still has an immense secondary manufacturing capacity and a lot of concentrated heavy industry, and let's not forget a lot of the more complex industries that have unfortunately sagged for many years. In the early 1990s though, Russia had a tremendously efficient aerospace industry and was at the time still in the exclusive Russia-US club when it came to heavy space exploration. They were in fact leaders in automation and computer science, and many computing and robotics inventions made in the USSR during the 1980s still seem to be underappreciated by the general public. It's not incidental that the 90s saw a huge "brain drain" from the USSR, and I challenge you to find a computer science or engineering department in the US today (in academics or industry) where there isn't a relatively senior researcher from the former USSR.

There was huge potential and a lot of value there. The West really dropped the ball there, and allowed that value to be bought up in a rigged auction by establishment figures (i.e. people either in Yeltsin's immediate circle, or people who effectively leveraged their connections to organized crime). It should be noted that Nemtsov was one of these people.

[soopaman2]

I read something today in the paper, they are blaming Chechens.

Sounds like justification for Putin get a double win, A political opponent is dead, and he can roll in tanks and kill people with a thin veil of Casus Belli.

Putin would win the Republican Primary in the US....Sadly.

[CCIP]

As I said, at this point it's pretty clear to me that it's not Putin, but nonetheless someone who's closely tied to him and has the freedom to act as he does because Putin's state has granted him immunity.

***

Meanwhile, an excellent article I came across today:

http://worldaffairsjournal.org/article/downward-spiral-putin%E2%80%99s-garrison-state

I don't find it 100% accurate nor do I agree with its main conclusion, but there are a lot of great points raised in it. In essence:

This Janus-faced KGB-mafia elite, enthroned in the Kremlin and controlling Russia’s political and economic life, is certainly unprecedented. So is the severity of the conflict with the West into which it is dragging the Russian people.

[mapuc]

I have a favorite radio show I listen to every day or try to..its a Danish talk show where the agenda is what's have happen in Denmark and the world

Yesterday they had a half hour about this murder and every one could send message, mails og phone what they thought could behind this..

It seem that almost everyone had CIA in their belief and the rest of them had Putin as the "criminal"..

Markus

[August]

I have a favorite radio show I listen to every day or try to..its a Danish talk show where the agenda is what's have happen in Denmark and the world

Yesterday they had a half hour about this murder and every one could send message, mails og phone what they thought could behind this..

It seem that almost everyone had CIA in their belief and the rest of them had Putin as the "criminal"..

Markus

Just curious what did those who believed it was the CIA give as a motive?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Just curious what did those who believed it was the CIA give as a motive?I would guess it has something to do with justifying American intervention in [insert-your-location-of-choice-here] by making Putin look evil-tyrant-dictator who will strike if we don't act first...

[Oberon]

Putin critic Alexander Shchentin found dead in apparent 'suicide' in Ukraine.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/28/russian-journalist-critical-of-vladimir-putin-found-dead-in-ukraine-6095243/

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4658962/clap-clap-putin-crab-o.gif

[Catfish]

"He had a gunshot wound to the head and there was also a suicide note, with a weapon found nearby.

MORE: Price of tuna could rocket due to demand and restrictions on fishing"

:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

The door to the apartment was locked so should make it easier to come to an obvious conclusion.

[Moonlight]

What conclusion would that be then, suicide?.
I wouldn't be so sure about that, it would be pretty easy for a trained professional to lock a door from the outside, here's a video of a non professional locking a door with just a carrier bag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGrll3NATNM

[Jimbuna]

The conclusion that is of most convenience to those who are pro or anti Putin.

[Aktungbby]

"He had a gunshot wound to the head

:hmmm: Well nuthin goes outta style in Mother Russia http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03451/romanov3_3451430b.jpgCzar Nicholas und Fraü