ATR-72 crash in Taiwan - terrifying footage

[CCIP]

TransAsia's aircraft crashes on departure - same type of same airline crashed with 53 fatalities last year.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/feb/04/taiwan-plane-crash-bridge-crashes-river

Those poor people :(

Shockingly, the reports so far say that most on board have in fact survived the crash. Fingers crossed that this is really true!

[GoldenRivet]

Thats pretty intense. I have heard few good things about the ATR really. I very nearly bid the aircraft out of DFW several years ago but ultimately decided not to.

I miss flying for the airlines, sometimes i really want to go back, but then i see my paycheck compared to what it used to be and it makes me laugh

The aircraft suddenly rolled sharply to the left, in the video it looked to have plenty of speed but its hard to know exactly how fast the plane was traveling and if there was any ice accumulation on the wings.

Some of you will recall that the ATRs had to have their leading edge de-ice boots modified following the American Eagle Airlines Roselawn Crash years ago. The ice accumulation on the wings at specific airspeeds and flap configurations caused the aircraft to experience a sharp and sudden rolling motion, almost exactly like in the video... straight and level one moment, knife edge the next. Following the recommendation of the National Transportation Safety Board, American Eagle Airlines relocated its entire fleet of ATR aircraft to routes in the Caribbean where icing might be less frequently encountered.

I would be surprised to hear of survivors, striking the planet earth at such an attitude is rarely survivable, especially when the aircraft immediately makes its best impression of a submarine following impact.

EDIT: It would appear there are as many as 28 survivors who have been rescued from the aircraft at this point

[CCIP]

Actually, I found out what the roll to the left was. If you go to the other article linked at the bottom of that page, there is another video, from a car further back, and you can clearly see the plane hitting high-tension power lines that are not visible in this video. That's what caused that roll.

[GoldenRivet]

ohhhh that sucks... yeah i couldnt see power lines in that video.

[BossMark]

Just seen this on sky news and its a miracle that anybody as got out alive.

[Jimbuna]

Just seen this on sky news and its a miracle that anybody as got out alive.

Rgr that :yep:

[Oberon]

That is quite horrifying. It looks like the taxi in front of the leading video car got hit as well. Trying to work out in Google Maps whereabouts the crash happened, looks like it might have been trying to turn back when it came down, apparently the pilots were signalling an engine flame-out before the crash.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@25.065422,121.613702,3a,75y,74.92h,90.15t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVR7n2i4qkIFYOpfxToWppw!2e0

Possibly the freeway seen in the video? :hmmm:

[CCIP]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@25.065422,121.613702,3a,75y,74.92h,90.15t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sVR7n2i4qkIFYOpfxToWppw!2e0

Possibly the freeway seen in the video? :hmmm:

It is - you can even see the power lines.

I've been looking at more videos and it's sort of hard to tell - it's looking more like the power lines didn't cause the sudden roll, but the pilot actually tried to turn at the last moment to avoid them.

[Oberon]

It is - you can even see the power lines.

I've been looking at more videos and it's sort of hard to tell - it's looking more like the power lines didn't cause the sudden roll, but the pilot actually tried to turn at the last moment to avoid them.

The local news is reporting that the plane rolled to avoid buildings and presumably the power lines. There was a high school nearby there, so for the aircraft to come down in the river, all things considered, was probably the outcome with the least amount of fatalities. Sadly I doubt the pilot(s) survived.

[Onkel Neal]

Good lord. Not that I need anything else to put me off flying but, wow.:dead:

[Wolferz]

It looked like a definite engine failure on the port side.
One prop just doesn't cut it during takeoff.:huh: The portside prop also appears fully feathered, creating too much drag to recover from the roll.

At least the pilots put it in the river.:up:

I bet those last few seconds were butt puckered exciting for all involved.

[GoldenRivet]

Failure of the left engine is possible... the aircraft was in its initial climbout after takeoff, its trajectory certainly appears to be more of an approach to landing which initially on my first view of the video what i thought it was doing, but this is apparently right after takeoff.

like i said - amazing anyone came out of this event alive.

I've done hundreds of V1 cuts in the Level D Simulators... but i often wondered just how comparable that would be to reality - in the hot August sunshine in Texas with a full loadout at high density altitude... :shifty:

[Oberon]

A flight instructor I follow on Twitter (where I get my nice Hawk videos and photos from) said: "Looks like high alpha into a stall with wing-drop (engine failure)" and apparently some still images indicate that the port engine was feathered. :hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

and apparently some still images indicate that the port engine was feathered. :hmmm:

As it should be if the engine had failed. unfortunately depending on things like speed, weight, temperature, skill of the pilot etc. even if the prop was feathered it is possible the airplane would still experience uncontrollable roll and yaw

Immediately after takeoff is pretty much the end all be all of worst times to experience an engine failure, and fully laden, even a turbo-prop aircraft with shaft-horse-power-o-plenty might not have the push it needs to continue it's climb out to a reasonably safe altitude.

Jet engines pumping out thousands on thousands of pounds of thrust on the other hand is a different story as seen here in this thompsonfly video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

often times the yawing and rolling motion in such aircraft is negligible.

[Jimbuna]

Thanks for the explanation and accompanying video John....made it easier for me to understand :up:

[CCIP]

Fantastic video GR, thank you for sharing! :up: I've seen the bird strike itself before, but not the whole story, so to speak.

The 757 is a particularly outstanding aircraft in this regard of course - it's got a lot of reserve thrust (or as some would put it, it's one overpowered plane! They don't build em like that anymore).

[Oberon]

Indeed, thanks for posting that GR, nice work by the crew on that 757, steady smooth and a good swift action by the ground crews too.
But yeah, a prop or turbo-prop wouldn't recover as well, I agree, and with all the evidence that's come out so far it does lean heavily towards a catastrophic port engine failure.

[GoldenRivet]

Fantastic video GR, thank you for sharing! :up: I've seen the bird strike itself before, but not the whole story, so to speak.

The 757 is a particularly outstanding aircraft in this regard of course - it's got a lot of reserve thrust (or as some would put it, it's one overpowered plane! They don't build em like that anymore).

Agreed

In speaking with 757 pilots... The aircraft is unanimously regarded as having "gobs of power"

A windmilling prop on a dead engine produces so much drag... Might as well be a brick wall.

[Oberon]

According to the FDR, both engines failed shortly after take-off, producing insufficient power. The pilots attempted to restart one engine, but it was just too late. It's hard to tell what could have caused such a dramatic failure of both engines, an electrical fault perhaps?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31162351

[GoldenRivet]

Seems pretty unreal that both engines would fail. Possible but not probable. But if the FDR points to both engines then that's the case.

I recall sim training on the King Air. Sim instructor introduced us to something called a torque runaway. In this case the fuel sending unit or needle valve or some such contraption jams full open on say the right engine pushing the torque up to like 115% this results in a yawning and rolling motion toward the left engine that's behaving normally. In reality, the aircraft normally rolls and yaws toward the dead engine. This can cause the pilot to shut down the good engine erroneously. Unfortunately the error is generally discovered about the time the runaway engine is thrashing itself apart or catching fire.

[CCIP]

Yeah, I'm wondering if it is something like that under the hood. Other than the feathering, there doesn't look to be anything unusual about the props in the videos, so it certainly doesn't look like prop failure. No signs of smoke or fire either. If it is some sort of complex fuel system or FADEC failure, that certainly doesn't have good implications for ATR.

[CCIP]

And hmm, the preliminary transcript:


10:51:13 — Crew receives take-off clearance
10:52:34 — Tower asks crew to contact Taipei Departure
10:52:38 — Master warning sounds
10:53:04 — Crew reduces power to the left engine
10:53:12–18 — Stall warning sounds
10:53:24 — Crew cuts power to the left engine
10:53:34 — Crew declares emergency: "Mayday! Mayday! Engine flameout"
10:54:09 — Crew calls for restarting the left engine multiple times
10:54:20 — Left engine is restarted
10:54:34 — Master warning sounds again
10:54:34 — An unidentified sound is heard
10:54:36 — Recordings end


Doesn't even sound like a dual engine failure from that. It's also interesting to note that it had a cockpit crew of three, with the engineer being by far the most experienced.

[GoldenRivet]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/both-transasia-plane-engines-lost-power-taiwan-crash-090357131.html

Hmmm

I'm reminded of another sim session while training on the SAAB 340

I was pilot flying, captain was performing duties of non flying pilot

Right side engine failure during an ILS approach just inside the outer marker passing through about 1200 AGL

PF: (me) "confirm engine failure"
PNF: "failure of the right engine confirmed"
PF: "right power lever retard"
PNF: (correctly grabs right power level and reduces to flight idle)
PF: "right condition lever fuel cut off"
PNF: (grabs the left condition lever in the heat of the moment and reduces it instantly to fuel cut off)
Warning bell: ding ding ding
PF: "identify warning and cancel" at this point I'm noticing an increased sink rate
Warning voice: "glide slope. Glide slope"
PNF: "warning bell is left generator failure light... ****, I pulled the wrong condition lever!"
PF: "left ignition to normal!"
PNF: (click) "set!"
PF: "left condition lever to start and start switch left!"
The engine began it's startup but impact occurred before ignition could be obtained

From that moment on, in the sim and in the real aircraft - I took a peek at what the other pilots hands touched in regards to such processes every time I instructed him to do something regardless of what his experience level may be

Turns out the sim instructor had told the other pilot to do that so I would develop just that habit.

It's possible a similar problem occurred on that ATR?

[GoldenRivet]

Just noticed your post CCIP

Eerily similar to my post above. I would be very interested in reading the cockpit voice recorder transcript

[CCIP]

Eerie indeed!

There also seems to be the implication that the FDR wasn't showing anything wrong with the left engine before it was shut down. Could this be something like BMI flight 92, where the crew became disoriented by a warning and shut down the wrong engine, losing power from both as a result?

[GoldenRivet]

Maybe. One has to be very careful about just grabbing levers and t-handles and flipping switches to address a problem.

A break down of communication between left and right seat I suppose. Also... I think I read somewhere that they had a pilot in the jump seat.

Almost wonder if too many people were "flying" the airplane.

One thing is certain... Asia has not had fantastic luck with keeping it's planes in the sky lately.

[CCIP]

A break down of communication between left and right seat I suppose. Also... I think I read somewhere that they had a pilot in the jump seat.


Yeah, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there was a crew of 3 in the cockpit, with the third being classed as Flight Engineer (it might be that they have some regulation forcing them to retain that position), who was actually the most senior of them by a long shot (the pilots had 4.5k hours a piece, the engineer had over 16k hours).

[GoldenRivet]

https://gma.yahoo.com/both-engines-lost-power-transasia-crash-aviation-official-095150422--abc-news-topstories.html

:(

[Oberon]

Wonder what made them shut down the wrong engine, if it was over-revving like the aforementioned example I could understand. An honest mistake possibly...the airline company involved is apparently putting all its pilots on a training course, perhaps to instill in them the same habit that GRs instructor put into him. :hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

Wonder what made them shut down the wrong engine

by complete mistake would be my guess

If i have one engine turning out thrust - even if it is surging or has a minor malfunction, and the other engine has totally crapped the bed... i can promise you between one failed and one acting funny, the engine cranking out the most thrust will run until it falls to pieces or we are back safely on the ground if it were my call.

according to the FDR the right engine was failed, and the power lever for the left engine was gradually reduced to idle followed by the fuel being cut off. I dont claim to know everything, Im certainly not typed on the ATR series, and i hate to "Monday morning quarter back" with incomplete information - but i cannot think of a single good reason to have shut down the left engine when the right had failed. especially during the ever critical phase of initial climb out.

Now - that said - it is based on translated information coming from the other side of the planet.

I dont give up the possibility that both engines failed simultaneously or nearly so... but as i said in previous posts, while possible, it is highly improbable that both engines would just check out at roughly the same time like that short of fuel exhaustion or something common to both engines not working properly

all indications - preliminary as they may be - are that the crew shut down the wrong engine by mistake.:nope:

[CCIP]

As I mentioned earlier, to me the most obvious parallel is the Kegworth air disaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegworth_air_disaster#Causes

While the causes there are probably quite different, it basically boiled down to the crew interpreting signals incorrectly. Disconnecting the autothrottle and reducing power to the engines also temporarily alleviated vibration and other warnings from the damaged engine, making them think that the engine they shut down was the right one and the problem was gone, which of course cost them precious time.

It seems that in this case, it took the crew no more than 30 seconds to realize their mistake, but unfortunately by the time they could do anything about it they were already running out of altitude.

In situations like that, my guess is one of the first things that will be looked at is their training. In situations like that, you generally don't have time to think and your reflexes developed in training kick in. This could be a mistake, but it could also be an oversight in the company's procedures.