Otto Carius expires

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Carius

I am surprised this hasn't been mentioned, yet!!

[Platapus]

To be honest, until reading your post, I had never heard of him before.

Is his death somehow more noteworthy than other WWI vets that are dying pretty much every day?

Did you know him or his family?

[Aktungbby]

Platapus! He was the #2 and highest decorated surviving Tiger tank ace of WWII. Wittmann- "the black baron" gets all the publicity but there were three who out scored him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany)

[Stealhead]

What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther.

Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen.

[CCIP]

:salute:

I have immense respects for aces and honest soldiers on all sides. He was quite badly wounded too.

Far from being "just another veteran", Carius was arguably the last living tank ace, at least certainly the last living man with more than 100 tank kills.

This also reminds me that there is only one submarine ace left alive on this planet today (Reinhardt Hardegen, who is 102 years old) :(

Losing every veteran is equally sad of course - everybody fought and suffered. But I treat figures like this as sort of milestones in our collective memory.

[Jimbuna]

What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther.

Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen.

If you were a Panther mechanic you'd always have the heaviest workload in 'tank for tank' terms. The Panther was a nightmare to keep operational I believe.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

What that list of aces tells me is that superior industrial capacity and logistics are what wins wars. Besides if I'm gonna pick a WWII German tank without doubt I'd choose the Panther.

Actually I'd choose to be a mechanic working on Shermans first because they where easier to maintain and second I'd severe my country best by being a mechanic over a direct combatant. If I was German then I'd be a Panther mechanic only if all Fw190 crew chief solts where filled.Of course if I was German I'd fell conflicted as I'm not a fan of Nazism but I'd still have to serve being a good citizen.

I remember seeing a stat for Sherman vs KV maintenance. The Sherman needed either 4 hours of maintenance for every hour (or day?) of operation, while the KV series required 16 on the same chronometric.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Platapus! He was the #2 and highest decorated surviving Tiger tank ace of WWII. Wittmann- "the black baron" gets all the publicity but there were three who out scored him. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_Panzer_aces_from_Germany)

He's just one of those people I was shocked was still alive. And Hardegan is OLDER and still well!!!

[Aktungbby]

He's just one of those people I was shocked was still alive. And Hardegan is OLDER and still well!!!

Yeah I'm following that with great interest actually and had posted on it . He's still playing golf...way to go Drumbeater!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Fubar2Niner]

An amazing thread. Thank you all for pointing this out, I have spent best part the afternoon on wiki ( thanks Aktungbby :up: ) chasing down the history. Not only of Carius, but of the other lesser knowns and there respective panzer groups. Barbarosa, thru to Normandy, Falaise and beyond. Thank you gents :salute::up:

Best regards.
Fubar2Niner

[Sailor Steve]

Back in 1998 I had the opportunity to talk to a man named Fred Schmid (he emphasized at the time that there was no 't' at the end).

He said at the time that he was then 72, and that he had joined the Wehrmacht at age 17 because his older brother had been killed in a train wreck on his way to start his enlistment. He said he was assigned to a tank on the Russian Front. He said he became a tank commander at age 18 when his commander was killed by a Russian bomber while he was outside the tank relieving himself, and he was the only crew member who could read and write properly, so his fellow tankers elected him leader. They were having a hard time getting replacements in 1944.

Was any of his story true? I don't know, but it was a good story.

[Schroeder]

Back in 1998 I had the opportunity to talk to a man named Fred Schmid (he emphasized at the time that there was no 't' at the end).

He said at the time that he was then 72, and that he had joined the Wehrmacht at age 17 because his older brother had been killed in a train wreck on his way to start his enlistment. He said he was assigned to a tank on the Russian Front. He said he became a tank commander at age 18 when his commander was killed by a Russian bomber while he was outside the tank relieving himself, and he was the only crew member who could read and write properly, so his fellow tankers elected him leader. They were having a hard time getting replacements in 1944.

Was any of his story true? I don't know, but it was a good story.
Never heard of that German troops had difficulties reading and writing. I think that must have been a joke. People still got their basic education before being drafted (at least before 1945 when the Nazis threw everyone to the front who could walk on two legs).

[Stealhead]

I don't see why it isn't when you are in a world war you need troops badly thus you'll take men that in less desperate times might not be allowed entry.

Both my father and uncle who enlisted in the Army and Air Force in the early 60's explained how in basic they asked for those who had at least two years college raise hands. Next they asked for those unable to read to raise hands. Next they said college boys pick one person who can't read and teach them for the duration of basic training as a result both my father and uncle taught a man how to read in less than 90 days.

I highly doubt that Germany or any country for age group who served in WWII had a 100% literacy rate hell no country today dose.

I'd bet during WWII in any beligerants armed force the functional literacy rate was 70~75% lower in the USSR maybe 65%(based on books by Russian soldiers not picking on Russians).

[Schroeder]

My grandfather was drafted in 1943 and went through the normal school system like it was peace time. You only need to go through elementary school to be able to read and write. A soldier who is illiterate is severely handicapped especially in an army that loves forms and bureaucracy. He can't read manuals for his gear (I imagine that was quite important for a Tiger crew), can't take notes in briefings, can't read city names on maps, can't write reports. I highly doubt such people would be allowed to operate a Tiger. They would rather be holding a rifle in their hands or a kitchen knife.

[Stealhead]

Simply because your grandfather was able to read and write just fine dose not mean that every other German solider serving in WWII could as well. All that you say is true yet we also know that no nation has a 100% literacy rate. We also know that every nation has in times of need lowered its requirements in times of need.

Even in a tank one can be trained well enough to understand what needs to be done without having full literacy therefore I find the story told to Sailor Steve to be very plausible.

[Schroeder]

Simply because your grandfather was able to read and write just fine dose not mean that every other German solider serving in WWII could as well. All that you say is true yet we also know that no nation has a 100% literacy rate.

I don't know what exactly was required to become a tanker in Germany but I know that in the air force written tests had to be passed before someone was admitted to flight training. I'm sure tankers had to take tests as well which can't be done by illiterates.
We also know that every nation has in times of need lowered its requirements in times of need.
Were would you assign an illiterate to? A highly complex tank or a rifle squad?

Even in a tank one can be trained well enough to understand what needs to be done without having full literacy therefore I find the story told to Sailor Steve to be very plausible.I believe the Tiger has had a crew of 5 so how likely is it that you have a crew with 3 illiterate people in one tank? Besides tank commanders don't get elected. The next higher in command appoints someone to be the commander unless they have been all alone with no one else around for miles in their Tiger tank with three illiterate crew members.... Doesn't add up to me.:hmm2:
But I guess we'll never know for certain.

[Aktungbby]

I don't know what exactly was required to become a tanker in Germany.

The training was quite extensive and thorough: the theory being that "a good tank crew is worth more than a good tank." The training manual was attention getting and so successful for the elite Tiger crews that was adapted to the Panther crews as well. DAS targets:amply set forth...:dead:THE RIDE OF CHOICE BBY!:up: http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xPy7OtoZgdY/T2wDh0mRnOI/AAAAAAAAAD8/vSBsjqXAEpM/s800/A1.jpg (http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xPy7OtoZgdY/T2wDh0mRnOI/AAAAAAAAAD8/vSBsjqXAEpM/s800/A1.jpg)http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/02/wwii-nazis-tank-manuals-unexpectedly.html (http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/02/wwii-nazis-tank-manuals-unexpectedly.html) Proper target sighting instruction!:rock: http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wv7pLMxzVjs/T2wDrsLF_0I/AAAAAAAAAGI/zT5QgLWx8R0/s800/A8.jpg (http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wv7pLMxzVjs/T2wDrsLF_0I/AAAAAAAAAGI/zT5QgLWx8R0/s800/A8.jpg)