A CALL TO UBISOFT GUYS !

[tonibamestre]

Hey Srs from Ubisoft ! We entered into the 2015 and the lack of any updated naval simulator is ABSOLUTELY TOTAL. Thats why I think something new could be studied from scratch, its time to. Would be nice a Silent Hunter sequel, SH6 Cold War or so, first nukes + attack subs, more playability, more detail and technical items + ultimate effects.

Here is my disertation.

Toni B.

[captziggy]

Yes we need to have a sub game on the level of COD.Better graphics and a new theater of operations.

[Sailor Steve]

As I've said many times in the past, they have yet to give us a truly great WW2 simulator.

As many others have said, better graphics without any kind of decent gameplay is a waste of everybody's time. Just look at SH5.

As still others have said, it's no use asking Ubisoft for anything. They don't care about anything but grabbing the easy money.

[TorpX]

As I've said many times in the past, they have yet to give us a truly great WW2 simulator.

As many others have said, better graphics without any kind of decent gameplay is a waste of everybody's time. Just look at SH5.

As still others have said, it's no use asking Ubisoft for anything. They don't care about anything but grabbing the easy money.

Ditto!

[captziggy]

I agree that Ubisoft is the worst game maker out there.They start with a good idea then botch it up.If not for modders than they would be out of business.They did a horrible job on SH5 and what comes next we need to have SOME input.But I don't hold my breath that they will listen. SAD!

[ReallyDedPoet]

We have some other games in the works, WOTA that is one being made for mobile but plans are also for the PC. Same for Crash Dive. I think UBI had it's day.

[tonibamestre]

Oh guys, we really need a dedicated team developing something new ! What s up with Sonalyst Combat Simulations ?

:hmmm:

[Nippelspanner]

As I've said many times in the past, they have yet to give us a truly great WW2 simulator.

As many others have said, better graphics without any kind of decent gameplay is a waste of everybody's time. Just look at SH5.

As still others have said, it's no use asking Ubisoft for anything. They don't care about anything but grabbing the easy money.
True words, unfortunately.
I rather have the SH series to rest at the bottom of the ocean then to resurface under Ubisoft's flag once again - just to be disappointed again.

[turnerg]

Allow me to clear my throat:

DESTROYER COMMAND 2 OR CRUISER/BATTLESHIP/FLEET COMMAND


We've had enough U-Boats for now. What we need is a blend of Total War on the strategic map, and Destroyer Command on the battle map. Full "what if" or historical campaigns, Full fleet control, ship control, etc. Include all the Plan Z ships, the Montanas, maybe even edge into the Cold War. Use a simplified mechanic to manage the land/air war but still allow the player to manage the strategy. Will it ever happen?

NO. Ubisoft has zero interest, and there are no small studios who have the resources to make it happen. The ship modeling alone will require a full team of pros to build.

It doesn't help the "Indie" case when a studio like Storm Eagle (Distant Guns/Jutland) walks off with well over $100 of my hard earned money with no updates since 2013.

[ikalugin]

Can I get my Soviet pr23 ships? Pretty please?

[captziggy]

If only we could interest another developer into making a quality game.Maybe a call to all members for a write in to Microsoft.Could'nt hurt.

[Nippelspanner]

If only we could interest another developer into making a quality game.Maybe a call to all members for a write in to Microsoft.Could'nt hurt.
I do consider wasting my time as "hurtful" to be honest.

[GoldenRivet]

Hey Srs from Ubisoft ! We entered into the 2015 and the lack of any updated naval simulator is ABSOLUTELY TOTAL. Thats why I think something new could be studied from scratch, its time to. Would be nice a Silent Hunter sequel, SH6 Cold War or so, first nukes + attack subs, more playability, more detail and technical items + ultimate effects.

Here is my disertation.

Toni B.

If you are looking to ubisoft to fix the fact that there is no major naval game title in the works - you are barking up the wrong tree. They barfed up the last two additions to the series. Its time we gave someone else a shot :salute:

[GoldenRivet]

If only we could interest another developer into making a quality game.Maybe a call to all members for a write in to Microsoft.Could'nt hurt.

They recently pulled the plug and sold the rights to the Microsoft flight simulator series after the abysmal failure that was the "Pay as you go" modeled Microsoft Flight.

Microsoft Flight, with its new "world" only simulating a small area of the globe, and "pay as you play" business model that so many developers are so fond of these days they only managed to alienate literally about 99% of the fan base and ultimately killed the series that had been Microsoft's bread and butter simulator for about a quarter of a century... what makes you think they would be interested in jumping into the submarine market? and if they were interested, why would we want their hands on it?

EDIT:

the thing that bothers me about what few upcoming naval combat sims that do exist is that they are geared toward portable gaming (ipad, iphone, android) and this cell phone game feel carries over when they move the game to a PC format. what you end up with feels less like a simulation... or less like an in depth game... and more like something you would waste time playing while waiting for your flight to board at the airport.

Take pacific fleet for example. turn based strategy game at its finest. but it isnt even in the same ball park as the silent hunter series. Move. Aim. Shoot. your turn. compared to the silent hunter series where solutions must be plotted, crews managed, hunting grounds carefully selected... Pacific Fleet, while a fun game within its genre, by comparison is just tic tac toe with ships.

[Onkel Neal]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.

[GoldenRivet]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.

I would agree with you on SH3... i felt like they developed SH4 anticipating that SH3 folks would buy it just because.

but your quote about business is on the money (no pun intended)

The next big submarine Sim that will meet the demands of users wish lists... likely will be crowd funded

[TorpX]

I think most of us understand these game are not going to be perfect, and we can't have everything on our wish lists.

However, an acceptable sub sim should have, at a minimum, all the features that SH1 had, and be an improvement over that which preceded it. SH4 failed in these respects. For example, it lacks SD radar (SH1 had it), and was little improved over SH3 (weather problems and AI just as bad).

[GoldenRivet]

the bottom line is though, and i think this is a point neal was trying to make:

Simulations in general, and more specifically submarine simulations are a really niche market. With scores of people diving into massively multiplayer games, first person shooters and real time strategy games... its easy to develop success with a good product in those markets. So when you put a quality product into the FPS market like the call of duty franchise, lots of people buy it, and your budget for call of duty 2 gets bigger, call of duty 2 sells like hot cakes you get a massive budget for the 3rd edition... before you know it, the latest entry to the series has a budget, advertising campaign and all the hype and anticipation of a summer blockbuster hollywood action film.

Submarine sims, even a REALLY good one just does not generate the same kind of return. so while the hottest FPS game in development gets all the support it needs, the developer generally puts the dev team for Silent Hunter 6 in the back storage closet and says "Deliver something playable before xxx deadline" and thats as good as it will get.

Subsimmers are a different breed. and im not telling you guys anything yuo dont know.

my stepson was watching me play SH3 and he is a hard core gamer. XBOX, Playstation and PC... he plays various types of games from first person shooters to sports games to real time strategy.

he watched me for a good 30 minutes with my little circle racing across the map screen. finally i spotted a convoy, lined up in ambush position, plotted out an attack plot on the map screen, entered the parameters into the TDC, took my final readings though the scope, tweaked a couple of TDC entries and let a spread of 2 torpedoes go. The fish found their mark with a spectacular series of explosions following. the ship split in half and slipped beneath the waves. the escorts gave chase and the pinging, depth charging, cat and mouse game ensued.

he watched in silence through the whole ordeal. I escaped the escorts and returned to base course, back to the map screen and the little circle heading across its blue expanse.

"This game is like watching paint dry... i really just dont know how you play it."

then it was off to Madden 15, with farcry 4 for dessert.

see... for every 1 of us patient, calculative types... there are 20 of him paying top dollar for constant, white knuckle, palm sweating action.

and if you want to know what games will get priority all you have to do is follow the money.

Its like the young man who quit his low paying job and struck off down the road..

"Where are you going?" people asked him

"I'm going where the money is." he said

well, ubisoft... has gone where the money is

http://www.gamewallpapers.com/previews_480x300/wallpaper_far_cry_4_01.jpg

and its nothing personal against subsimmers, its just good business. I mean lets be perfectly honest, if suddenly 95% of the worlds population ditched burgers and fries in favor of burritos and tacos as a fast food choice... McDonalds would jump through their own asses to bring you the McTaco and the McBurrito

[Sailor Steve]

i felt like they developed SH4 anticipating that SH3 folks would buy it just because.
I think SH4 was being planned before SH3 was released, hence the complaints people made about the voices in English not having German accents. They knew what they wanted to do next right from the start. :sunny:

[Phrixus]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.

It's the "best" WW2 subsim because it's basically the only one around. There are nothing out there that you can compare with SH other than another SH.

And it is speaking volume when next to nobody compares the newer SHs favorably to the older ones.

[TorpX]

the bottom line is though, and i think this is a point neal was trying to make:

Simulations in general, and more specifically submarine simulations are a really niche market. ...
Ok, niche market, I get it. I've heard that phrase a thousand times since I've visited this site. I can understand fewer companies making sub sims. I can understand a longer development cycle in sub sims. I just don't consider it to be a blanket excuse for poor products/support.


my stepson was watching me play SH3 ...
"This game is like watching paint dry... i really just dont know how you play it."

Ok, but how old is your stepson? Young boys often do not naturally take to activities that are slower paced, and require strategy and patience. Many consider chess to be boring, but the game has managed to survive somehow.

A understand the argument about more people eat hamburgers, than eat filet mignon, but those who do, don't have to settle for rotten, parasite infested cuts.

Btw, I think there is a vein of complacency that runs through the software industry in general. [Yes, you too Microsoft.] They don't seem to want to put out a first-rate product; as if they don't really need to.



And it is speaking volume when next to nobody compares the newer SHs favorably to the older ones.
Well put, Phrixus. :up:

[Downunderjock]

As GoldenRivet quoted the other day.

Look at Steam. For example.

Esp. When they or gamers, tag games as "Simulators" in their Stores section.

Most Sims now are games, not Sims, now days.
Look at the amount of First Shooter Games, not just from Steam, either.

Some, are not about, planning, or plotting, or weather (or in the case of space one's, solar weather etc.) affecting you or your character or vehicle.

But to be fair, some point and click games, like other types, aren't all about point and shoot.

I also, like some that don't require you to kill a target, all the time.

Like: Take on Mars, Julia beyond the stars. Ship Sim and Train Sim and even that is changing to a more arcade type game. See their forum and they will tell you similar.

But getting back to the point, as GoldenRivet and others, have pointed out. It's sad that Sunsims, are going by the way side.
And Fleet type, is going in a FPS only direction that not even they, like how you all play SH series, where you have to locate plot, courses, make ready your sub, for your target. Noting that weather and even ocean currents subs movements can affect your eel, making it's mark.

But, that seems, to be the thing, with games out there, now.

[Erdem]

Ubisoft is having way more success focusing on its AAA franchises like Assasins Creed and Far Cry. Why would they bother making sequels to a franchise of a dead genre? How many hardcore subsimmers are out there to justify millions of dollars of development costs? They're out of the simulation market for good.

They'll put the IP to sleep for sure. The only salvation is if an indie developer decides to develop its own submarine simulator.

[GoldenRivet]

I just don't consider it to be a blanket excuse for poor products/support.

Its not, We had a great "vanilla" out of the box product with SH3. But, we were going from SH2... to a product far superior to its predecessor.

We have not had a subsim far superior to its predecessor in SH4, SH5 or SHO


Ok, but how old is your stepson? Young boys often do not naturally take to activities that are slower paced, and require strategy and patience. Many consider chess to be boring, but the game has managed to survive somehow.

19 years old, and a lover of mathematics - someone you think would enjoy the idea of plotting an attack solution, mashing the fire button, and seeing the fruits of his strategy laden labors in the explosion of an ammunition ship.

Yet alas he doesnt seem to enjoy it

we have to accept that we are the minority, and there are few in the industry that cater to the minority

A understand the argument about more people eat hamburgers, than eat filet mignon, but those who do, don't have to settle for rotten, parasite infested cuts.

Well in that scenario you are comparing apples to oranges... or more precisely fast food burgers to a premium cut of steak

quality aside... companies like ubisoft arent looking at what Goldenrivet, or TorpX or SailorSteve wants. they have a business to run. Ubisoft is looking at a LOT of sales data telling them what types of games most buyers are buying. I dont know where Submarine Simulations sit on the list... but im betting its not in the top 10... probably not even in the top 20

so their efforts focus on those types of games which is why we end up with garbage


I think there is a vein of complacency that runs through the software industry in general. [Yes, you too Microsoft.] They don't seem to want to put out a first-rate product; as if they don't really need to.

and you're absolutely right, but the vein of complacency doesn't stop with the software / gaming industry. Complacency affecting the bottom line and the end product can literally be found in almost ANY industry these days.

I hate for my posts to come across that im defending Ubisoft, because really... im not... im just telling it how it is.

Sooner or later, a company is going to have to specialize in making and selling to the simulation crowd exclusively OR we are going to have to crowd fund serious capable designers to create an easily modifiable easily supported subsim for us.

the alternative is the death of the simulation game genre... a genre on its last leg

want proof?

lets just look at what a simulation gameis: as simulation game attempts to copy some facet of real life via game software that the user plays in order to recreate a real life interaction or function.

Go to steam and look under the "simulation game genre"

an overwhelming majority of those simulators are dumbed down to the point of being ridiculous - or dont even belong in the category at all.

most of them are as realistic a representation of their respective activities as the old arcade game "Burgertime" is a realistic representation of working at a fast food joint.

why are these games in the sim genre this way?

game manufacturers are trying to appeal to a wider audience by making the game more approachable and easier to pick up and run with. Simulation games when i was a kid required a lot of reading, studying and learning before achieving any skill capable of making the simulation perform as it should.

we live in the instant gratification era and folks like you and I are surrounded by instant-gratification-zombies... as long as there are more of them than there are us the kinds of games that are dominating the market right now will continue to do so indefinitely

[TorpX]

Why would they bother making sequels to a franchise of a dead genre?


Indeed, they are the ones who killed it.

People here have often said a good sub sim doesn't bring in enough players. But how do they know? There hasn't been a good one since SHCE.

[GoldenRivet]

Others will tell you there hasnt been a good subsim since SH4... others will say everything since Aces of the Deep was garbage and a waste of time

the problem with statements like.....

There hasn't been a good one since SHCE.

.... is that they are opinion and conjecture

but when it comes to Ubisoft and the like...

But how do they know?


they have sales data that we dont

simplified as the below example might be, i think its a good one

GOLDENRIVET'S SODA STAND SALES ANALYSIS

BEVERAGE EARNINGS UNITS SHIPPED
Vanilla Soda................... $26.50................... 106 (sold out)
Cherry Soda................... $18.25................... 73
Grape Soda.................... $13.75................... 55
Root Beer.......................$12.25................. .. 49
U-Boat Special Cocktail....... $3.50 ................ 14

based on the above information we have decided that it makes better sense to cease production of the U-Boat special cocktail and take the personnel responsible for making it and transfer them to making vanilla and cherry soda

this is exactly whats happening to subsims at places like UBI and i think calling on them for help is not our best shot

[Julhelm]

the thing that bothers me about what few upcoming naval combat sims that do exist is that they are geared toward portable gaming (ipad, iphone, android) and this cell phone game feel carries over when they move the game to a PC format. what you end up with feels less like a simulation... or less like an in depth game... and more like something you would waste time playing while waiting for your flight to board at the airport.

Take pacific fleet for example. turn based strategy game at its finest. but it isnt even in the same ball park as the silent hunter series. Move. Aim. Shoot. your turn. compared to the silent hunter series where solutions must be plotted, crews managed, hunting grounds carefully selected... Pacific Fleet, while a fun game within its genre, by comparison is just tic tac toe with ships.
To be fair, Pacific Fleet was never intended as an ultra-hardcore simulation. However the majority of the feedback we got was that customers want more realism, not less. That's why in Atlantic Fleet we've focused on taking what simulation we had and making it more realistic, with higher fidelity systems damage, better ballistics and armor penetration, simulated firecontrol table and so on.

I don't necessarily agree that portable gaming has to be bad or less than on the PC. You should remember that before we released Pacific Fleet, there was pretty much no serious naval games outside of Battleship clones on the platforms. It is very hard for a small self-funded team to compete on PC with the demands for realism and graphics fidelity that platform has. And with WOTA the mobiles will have what will probably be the most realistic Type VII simulation ever.

[GoldenRivet]

To be fair, Pacific Fleet was never intended as an ultra-hardcore simulation.

No certainly not and I'm by no means knocking a product that i myself have purchased and had countless hours of fun playing. Pacific Fleet rocks, its fun, it looks good, it plays well and i literally have nothing bad to say about it at all in the least

the majority of the feedback we got was that customers want more realism, not less. That's why in Atlantic Fleet we've focused on taking what simulation we had and making it more realistic, with higher fidelity systems damage, better ballistics and armor penetration, simulated firecontrol table and so on.

Im foaming at the mouth to get my hands on Atlantic fleet


I don't necessarily agree that portable gaming has to be bad or less than on the PC. You should remember that before we released Pacific Fleet, there was pretty much no serious naval games outside of Battleship clones on the platforms. It is very hard for a small self-funded team to compete on PC with the demands for realism and graphics fidelity that platform has. And with WOTA the mobiles will have what will probably be the most realistic Type VII simulation ever.

I agree, and comparing something like pacific fleet to an in depth silent hunter type game is really apples to oranges.

but for those looking for something in depth and hard core, currently some of the naval games available aren't filling the void (not that they are intended to)

for those of you who have iphone or ipad etc and have not tried Pacific Fleet

you are missing out:rock:

[Bilge_Rat]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.


:agree:

exactly, game development is a business. At the end of the day, the company has to make a profit.

And as to expecting anything from Ubisoft, I still remember 2010 when a large and vocal part of the community did everything they could to scuttle SH5 and hoped Ubisoft would drop the franchise so that other developpers would rush in.

well you got your wish...but 5 years on, I still don't see anyone rushing in to fill the void....

:Kaleun_Binocular:

[makman94]

do a search in this site and have a look at W.O.T.A.

[Jimbuna]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.

Pretty much agree :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.

I concur.

[Vonross]

:sunny:do a search in this site and have a look at W.O.T.A.

[Devin Seay]

I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm pretty sure the Silent Hunter 5 was the last Silent Hunter game they'll ever be. I mean, Silent Hunter 5 was just embarrassment all around. Grant it, it had pretty good graphics and I loved the crew and walk around implementation. However, SH5 just didn't deliver at all.



Silent Hunter 5 was rushed and unfinished and that's why it failed.

[THEBERBSTER]

Hi DS

It's 2015 things have moved on a lot over the years.

We have vecko with his The Wolves Of Steel Mega Mod.

I would say that is success not failure.

Let's look forward for once from a dismal past to a bright future.

Peter

[Kessner]

I always thought it would have been cool if they did a advanced version of SH3. kind of like this...

>you still get your navel academy...

>Like sh5 you can move about the boat in full, also you can interact with the crew members just the same, but more and different dialog as the time goes on. The type 2, type 7, type 9, and type 21 would be available with this ability. They also be able to dive to the depths and work in this manner like in SH3. You also will be able to Port for re-fuel, and re-stock like in SH5 as well at sea the same with a re-supply type 9.

>better models for better actions, like when you dive, the NPC react like they should at stations and turning and throwing levers to dive. Since during a dive you have a pause point anyway which will let it be possible for the tower to be cleared seeing the men come down the ladder.
Crash dive will be the same but you see the NPC move faster, sliding down the ladder going to station or crew moving to the front of the boat.
During operations or depth charge attacks crew members may appear to see what's up, or gather in the control room having different reactions.

>You can move into a better boat, but not by buying it. Your game performance will move you up into it. For example, lets say your putting in a type 2, you did well and now you get to port and meet a guy who offers you a choice to move up into a newer type 2, and if you did really good, also type 7 or 9. You would choose the one you want and in a build time you will get it lets say after a few more patrols, because it is getting built. Something like that. You can also go to a crew selection section like in SH3, Enlist, give awards and so forth. You still be able to upgrade the boat.

>The game layout is still a open campaign war map like SH3 were you have patrol grids, except sometimes you can get orders to have you relocate to do other operations if you choose to do it once your patrol is finished. You start at port similar to SH5, except you can get assigned to either a grid patrol or choose to take a OP mission with out the hard luck story. For Example lets say you choose OPs, based on your boat you will get a OPs assignment, like if you have a type 7 may have to go take pics in Norway ports or something, or if your in the type 9 you have to deliver agents into Canada or the US. Or if you do a typical patrol, well it is just a ride to a patrol grid for 24 hours. You complete it and send in a patrol report before you go in. get a probability % for a new patrol grid, OPs assignment or wolf pack support, or a return to base...you can see were I am going with this..

>Patrol grid locations are assigned based on the boats anyway, so your assigned patrol grids will be based on that. Type 2 is a local costal U-boat, so charts will be based on its distance for that. Type 7 is a medium attack boat, so grid charts will be based on its distance, and the type 9 is ocean going, so it will get its grid charts based on that, and so forth. The charts will also be effective based on the Model as well, such as type 7 b may not end up using the same charts for the C because the newer ones could go farther.

>if your boat is badly damaged or something in a manner were you can't do anything except dive to hide and unable to get to a near German port. You can send a help message for this and get someone sent to you. Pending how bad will decide that repairs to get to the nearest port or a tow to the main port. But on the same take the allies also progress during the war, a help message could also bring trouble.

>Once at port, hull damage could be repaired as well as the boat itself. There is a time period against you for this. The more damage it is, the longer the port time.

>You can request a transfer to a different flotilla, or if the flotilla is disbanded, instead like in SH3 were your at the bottom of the map some place. instead, under a probability % and the flotilla is going to be disbanded you will get distributed to other flotillas. If you are out at sea, you will get a message to direct you to go. If not a flotilla then a port of location doing operations under Kriegsmarine.

Something like this...:06:

[Skytracker]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.



It has become obvious when you analyze their later products that at a certain point Ubisoft decided to put alot of engineering into making their games not replayable. There's all kinds of ways they can do that.

In other words, a subsim like a good tactical shooter, have alot of replayability to them. The very essence of these types is conductive for the Players to be invested in them, mostly due to their communities as observed here. Why would they make a game for the next five years when they can sale you five games every year? Giving a little of what you want every time yet being extremelly carfull not to offer the full package to endup with a corporate disaster like GhostRecon or RvS, where Players still play those to this day.

They are not into making or publishing video games. They are into making money for them and the shareholders. No solution will ever come form Ubisoft unless they crash first. Then maybe things will change for a short period.

[THEBERBSTER]

A Warm Welcome To The Subsim Community > Skytracker :subsim:
You Will Always Find Someone Here To Help You :sunny:
New To Silent Hunter <> Need Help <> Click On My Thread Link. :salute:
Subsim <> How To Donate <> See The Benefits <> Support The Community (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2033119%23post2033119) :yeah:
Tonnage Bar Fix For Those Not Using TWOS In My Tutorial Post #188 :/\\!!

[BigBANGtheory]

My 2 cents: Ubisoft put their backs into SH3 and SH4, and were on the way with SH5 before their resources were exhausted before completion. Say what you will about them, they gave us the best WWII submarine simulations, really the only WWII subsims, since 1997.

Making a high fidelity simulation that will please just a fraction of the high demands and expectations of the customers is resource intensive, and that means expensive. When the sales don't add up to a profit, well, there's no business in losing money.

Eagle Dynamics with DCS managed it :know:

Ubisoft showed us some immense skill in software/games development in many areas then totally ballzd up the customer care, you can't sell an unfinished product, drop all support and expect people to be happy about it. The ammount of reputation damage they got from Cliffs of Dover and SH must be pretty costly. Ubisoft is anti-consumer imho

[Aktungbby]

Devin Seay!:Kaleun_Salute:A bit belatedly; pardon our poor manners! :k_confused:

[makman94]

Eagle Dynamics with DCS managed it :know:

Ubisoft showed us some immense skill in software/games development in many areas then totally ballzd up the customer care, you can't sell an unfinished product, drop all support and expect people to be happy about it. The ammount of reputation damage they got from Cliffs of Dover and SH must be pretty costly. Ubisoft is anti-consumer imho

Pretty much agree :yep:

[deicide]

Well I hate to be the turd in the punch bowl....but...

I really don't see where SH5 has hurt UBI at all.

They have one of the top 3 selling titles for the PS4 right now with Far Cry, which is also still in the top 10 for PS3.
Their Rainbow series still sells and plays very well, Assasins Creed is still a #1 seller for all systems.
Watch Dogs was something totally different and has a replay value that very few games have.
The Might and Magic series has a very dedicated group of followers, I don't know to many younger people who don't (or at least at one time did) have at least one version of Rocksmith. Splinter Cell was also another top selling franchise.

So to think that botching one very niche release or even 2 or 3 really hurt them is absolutely ridiculous.
UbiSoft is a business and even if they made the best Subsim ever known it's sales would be maybe...maybe 1/100th
of their other major titles. So in reality I think about 3/4th through SH5 the people with the money put the
big red X on the development of the game. It's not the dev's fault!!!
If you were at work working on a project and your supervisor came to you and said "Stop wasting time on this project, we're
scrapping it" my guess would be you would move on to whatever they told you the next project was.
Yet the people with the money wanted some return so they released it! Once again not the dev's fault!!!

I see some people mentioning DCS. While I do think it's a great platform lets not forget the scandal with DCS WWII: Europe 1944.
I was one of the donators that was supposed to be at a level to receive several free aircraft modules, then the project was "sold"
to Eagle Dynamics. After EG took over they cut the originally promised rewards by 50%+ and claimed they were not responsible for refunds
or rewards originally made by RRG Development. Even though EG now owns RRG and used it's kickstarter funds for development of said title.

If anyone really wants to put out a good Subsim I would suggest looking at the way Kerbal Space Program was developed.
Years and years of beta's and listening to the end consumer with tweaks and upgrades along the way and those of us who
sprang the $30 for the early release got the final release as an update (just this week). I would also hazard a guess that
the guys at Squad made very little if anything and did it more for the love of the project!


Sorry for the rambling, Been off work on disabilty for quite a few weeks and half a bottle of Glen Livet's will do that
to a guy!!!!

-deicide


Edit: Sorry for the spacing, wrote this in notepad and didn't realize it would look like that!! heh

[Sailor Steve]

Sorry for the rambling
Really? It seemed quite concise and direct to me. Of course I don't know anything about it, but what you said makes sense to me.

[BigBANGtheory]

I really don't see where SH5 has hurt UBI at all.


Ok so where it has hurt them is reputation damage, Ubisoft are known to abandon projects and products at the cost to their customers to protect their own interests. They are incapable of releasing and supporting a simulation game because it seems at odds with their business model.

Commercially of course they have invested in the high value cross platform titles and IP and basically going where the money is. They are a console 1st now....

DCS 1944 thing was a joint venture that went wrong RRG seemed to under estimate the effort to deliver it imho. Here is the important bit Eagle Dynamics took it over and also will shortly be giving away their Nevada Terrain free to beta A10-C owners who expected it in the vanilla product. The point there is Eagle Dynamics have a sustainable business model that works for sims and when something goes wrong (i.e. 1944 and NTTR) they do something about it. Where DCS excels imho is the devs understand you have to achieve a certain lvl of quality above all else.

Sims need a means for the developer to profit by their continued support and updates over many years. Ubisoft don't want that they want to push a product out as cheaply as possible, rake in the cash and move on with zero customer interaction.

So imho a commercial software/games developer should look at a naval DCS style model. The Kerbal SP example could work, you would need a passion for the genre to make it work.

[Silentfreak]

yeah could be funny a new SH!

[deicide]

Ok so where it has hurt them is reputation damage, Ubisoft are known to abandon projects and products at the cost to their customers to protect their own interests. They are incapable of releasing and supporting a simulation game because it seems at odds with their business model.

Commercially of course they have invested in the high value cross platform titles and IP and basically going where the money is. They are a console 1st now....

DCS 1944 thing was a joint venture that went wrong RRG seemed to under estimate the effort to deliver it imho. Here is the important bit Eagle Dynamics took it over and also will shortly be giving away their Nevada Terrain free to beta A10-C owners who expected it in the vanilla product. The point there is Eagle Dynamics have a sustainable business model that works for sims and when something goes wrong (i.e. 1944 and NTTR) they do something about it. Where DCS excels imho is the devs understand you have to achieve a certain lvl of quality above all else.

Sims need a means for the developer to profit by their continued support and updates over many years. Ubisoft don't want that they want to push a product out as cheaply as possible, rake in the cash and move on with zero customer interaction.

So imho a commercial software/games developer should look at a naval DCS style model. The Kerbal SP example could work, you would need a passion for the genre to make it work.

So a person (me) who pledged over $1700 and got less than 1/3rd of what was promised to me is supposed to now support a DCS style model..... ummmmm no thanks. DCS will never be on ANY hard drive or remote drive or network drive I ever own!!! They ripped me off for well over $1000 and NEVER delivered what they promised!!

As far as the Squad guys with Kerbal they always gave me more than what I paid for. So yeah I will support people who are passionate over people who are just looking to make a profit anyday!!!! And that is what DCS has become.. I mean really $200 plus for some of the modules they offer. lol
I can get a flight in a real F18 here in Madison, Wi at Truax Airport for that price.

The fact that it has been shown they ripped people off for thousands of dollars yet fanboy/girls still keep singing the praises is beyond my comprehension! However I am glad some people are getting enjoyment off MY $$$ because I never will.

-deicide

[sshellokitty]

Although I don't know the details and probably never will, SH5 seems like the perfect example of a publisher forcing their developer to put out a game before it is completed. All of the bugs that are in the game just make it so apparent that the build is more like an alpha or beta build - mostly feature complete but in need of testing. This happens so much with Ubisoft that I don't know how they are still a company. I really wish they would go out of business and sell off all of their licenses. Then again EA would probably buy up all of their studios and licenses and EA isn't all that great either.

Of course all of this is terrible because a developer, game designer, artist, or anyone actually working on the project wants it to be the best that it can be and have players enjoy the experience and have fun. I think if you read any comment section of a developer site like Gamasutra you will see that people are in the video game industry because they love making games and don't want to be forced to put out buggy crap that player's don't like.

I still think that if there is a strong enough will to do a WW2 subsim game than it could be made independently through crowd funding. As a game designer, military veteran, and WW2 armchair historian I would sprint at the chance to work on this type of project (as I've said in many posts). It would just be an immense undertaking that couldn't be done alone.

[BigBANGtheory]

So a person (me) who pledged over $1700 and got less than 1/3rd of what was promised to me is supposed to now support a DCS style model..... ummmmm no thanks. DCS will never be on ANY hard drive or remote drive or network drive I ever own!!! They ripped me off for well over $1000 and NEVER delivered what they promised!!

As far as the Squad guys with Kerbal they always gave me more than what I paid for. So yeah I will support people who are passionate over people who are just looking to make a profit anyday!!!! And that is what DCS has become.. I mean really $200 plus for some of the modules they offer. lol
I can get a flight in a real F18 here in Madison, Wi at Truax Airport for that price.

The fact that it has been shown they ripped people off for thousands of dollars yet fanboy/girls still keep singing the praises is beyond my comprehension! However I am glad some people are getting enjoyment off MY $$$ because I never will.

-deicide

You paid for nothing, what you did was risk your money on a Kickstarter campaign rather than waiting for a released product that would have cost a fraction of that. I've never paid more than $40 for any module, hell their premier A10-C, FC3 and BS2 products are $16 each atm so who is getting ripped off exactly and where are these $200 modules?

[JU_88]

Its 2015 now and its plain that Ubisoft are done with Silent Hunter, (And likewise many Silent Hunter fans are pretty much done with Ubisoft.)
Ubisoft killed it just by being Ubisoft - impatient and stubborn with customers and even with their own developers, of course if you asked them, I'm sure they would give you a politicians speech with lots of finger pointing to external market forces. Because at Ubisoft "Its everyone elses fault" is virtually the company motto.

I hope for a new Subsim too, but from another developer, its high time for someone else to take shot at it. Silent hunter kind of needed to die to make that more likely.
I'm quietly hopeful as WWII themed games seem to be making a bit of a come back at the moment. The market for a good Subsim might be too modest in size for the likes of Ubisoft, but its certainly isn't for other developers who know how to work it.
The main problem is perhaps dealing with the slow pacing that comes with submarine warfare, that puts a spanner in works for having submarines included in a fast paced brawler MMO like WT or WOW, but something with two layers like Heroes and Generals could be make to work possibly.
Its probably just a matter of time, i'd expect we would see something before the end of this decade, but its just impossible to say where/who it would come from.

WOTA looks good, but its still a Mobile platform / Indy game with just one (very passionate) guy working on it, I wouldn't hold huge expectations, it looks like it will be a very nice addition to sub sims - but its probably not going to be the game that single handedly replaces the Silent Hunter franchise.

[Nippelspanner]

Because at Ubisoft "Its everyone elses fault" is virtually the company motto.
FINALLY I can use this! :D


http://i.imgur.com/GsMc8sd.png

[JU_88]

:haha::haha:

[swdw]

If you want a better subsim, you need to put a group together similar to the ATAG group for Il-2 Cliffs of Dover and the BDG group with BOBII: Wings of Victory.

They were given access to the code to make improvements, squash bugs, add more realistic physics. etc.

The work those 2 groups are doing is amazing.

I was involved in putting a group together that was modding Fighter Squadron:SDOE and we wound up with the same arrangement with ParSoft. Some of the work we did was reviewed in PC Pilot and our aircraft flight characteristics were called the most realistic of any sim at the time. We had access to the game and physics code and made some great improvements. We were however, not given access to do more than minor modifications to the graphic engine or we could have taken the game much farther. (yes, RFB was not the first time I'd put a team together, but not having access to fix problems in the game code did limit what people were capable of)

So if you want a better subsim, this is what you'll need. Talk ubisoft into letting a team work on the code from SH4 and SH5 and turn the modders loose by giving them a better physics engine, graphics engine, and ships to work with that have been created for the community by members of the community.

[jimislander]

I would rather see you tech guys produce DVD's for GWX and LSH3 with all the bugs removed. I would gladly buy one or both

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim jimislander :sunny:

[Aktungbby]

jimislander!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Rockin Robbins]

I would rather see you tech guys produce DVD's for GWX and LSH3 with all the bugs removed. I would gladly buy one or both
That isn't possible, as swdw just laid out in non-specific detail.

One thing about SH3/GWX that drove me to SH4 was that in that game, if you dare save submerged, within range of any contacts, within x miles of shore, not facing Mecca, whatever, you would get a corrupted save and lose your entire career. The longer you go never forgetting this, the more certain that your next save is going to be done in a hurry and there goes your three earth month long career.

You can fix GWX till the cows come home (the original crew did just that) and you can never touch the deal killer bug. It is contained within the untouchable executable files of the game. Unless and until Ubi releases the game code itself for modification, a fix is impossible.

As the Krazyfrenchman revolt days over at Ubi forums showed, Ubi is not a company which allows the wishes of its customers get in the way of doing whatever it wants. The things they do well, and which make them obscene amounts of money are not simulations. They have what they consider are larger fish to fry but still have no advantage to surrendering control of their intellectual property in releasing SH3 and SH4 game code.

With Ubi it's all about the money. The reason they produce games is money, not the love of games, not the creative release, not pride of accomplishment, just the inflow of lots of cash. What produces the cash they will do. What doesn't (simulations) they will walk away from without regard for the people who play it.

[swdw]

RR, check your PM inbox :03:

[Rockin Robbins]

Done, thank you, and correction to my first post, Ubi has released some game code to modding teams for their IL2 franchise so maybe they can be persuaded here too. Best of fortune to swdw and Neal. I'm willing to help in any way I can.

[Thresher]

I look at SHO Beta ... and I just don't know... after buying SH 2,3 and 5... and being left hanging, I'm not sure I want to support any more of their ventures/products... :shifty:

I especially can't believe they are using flash, when major computing companies are calling for it's demise. And then, I look at the micro-transaction model they are using and to me it seems awful expensive for a rather poor looking GUI, and to some extent the implementation of their real-time model. I guess they figure that is cheaper than a thin client. :-?

If I was a betting sailor, I'd say SHO will be SHOffline within the year.

Ubisoft, it looks like a lot of submariners have a long memory. You should have never impaled us (to put it nicely) in the first place. :down:

I wish someone, somewhere, would make a decent sub sim but I guess there is just no money in it. :wah:


I just don't know... :hmm2:

[cherbert]

I look at SHO Beta ... and I just don't know... after buying SH 2,3 and 5... and being left hanging, I'm not sure I want to support any more of their ventures/products... :shifty:

I especially can't believe they are using flash, when major computing companies are calling for it's demise. And then, I look at the micro-transaction model they are using and to me it seems awful expensive for a rather poor looking GUI, and to some extent the implementation of their real-time model. I guess they figure that is cheaper than a thin client. :-?

If I was a betting sailor, I'd say SHO will be SHOffline within the year.

Ubisoft, it looks like a lot of submariners have a long memory. You should have never impaled us (to put it nicely) in the first place. :down:

I wish someone, somewhere, would make a decent sub sim but I guess there is just no money in it. :wah:


I just don't know... :hmm2:

Silent Hunter Online is more of an offshoot. I wouldn't confuse it nor associate it with the games that have come before it.

Silent Hunter Online was pretty much cancelled and its funding halted few years back. Its not been developed since and is probably still online only to give Ubisoft a bit of pocket money from those who still spend money playing it. I guess they need to try and recoup as much money back as they can. I think they realised early in the beta that the potential audience for the game was not going to bring them a return in money and so cut their losses and pulled the plug.

[PHIRDAWS]

coz in wwII there are no women in subs...cmon its the current year!!:cool:

[Red Devil]

I have been watching people compalin about Ubisoft for over a decade now. They are damn useless.

THey make a great idea for a game, rush it through development, try it for maybe 5 minutes, and package it out.

Rarely do they make patches - Far Cry 2 is a perfect example; I cant even guess how many bugs are in that, and SH series is riddled. Ubisoft do not CARE.

IN FC2, I was in that forum which was 'monitored' by Ubi men - so they say - like hell.

My advice is dont buy Ubisoft but try and persuade a top company to make sub sims etc. If the make the right ones, especially like SH4, they are on a winner.

[BigBANGtheory]

imho the problem is mostly about developers and publishers understanding the sim audience and then finding a business model to support both parties.

There are a number of positive factors playing into this right now:
1. Re-invention of VR plays nicely into Subsim gameplay
2. Game engines like UE4 and CryEngine have never been so easily accesible for startups
3. Crowdfunding has produced some decent titles
4. Lock On Modern Air Combat (developed by ED, published by Ubisoft) went on basically to become DCS

What you need is someone like KillHouse Games to do what Eagle Dynamics did, have some licensing agreement with Ubisoft for a set number of years but essentially go it alone with a team imparting their experience and passion into a new product. Ubisoft would possibly give up some of the IP, rights and source code if there is a commercial interest for them I doubt they would do it out of kindness to a community.

Simmers want quality and virtual freedom
Developers want to be appreciated and rewarded for their efforts
Publishers want a large return on investment with as little risk as possible

[Red Devil]

I was pleased to see SH4 appear in Steam, but hope Steam can build in mods and/or patches to make it even better. At present it is picking up my disc based game saves, it should be separate; it is on sep drive under steam library.

I have Age of Empires 2 HD via steam, its an excellent example of steam providing patches that auto intergrate into game, when available, on start up.

I hope steam can do the same with SH4 :arrgh!:

[jimislander]

Even for a Beta version its terrible. Items that dont load, actions that dont function, UBI have gone down the SH5 road. I'll stick to SH3 commander and try and join a game old style LAN

[THEBERBSTER]

A Warm Welcome Back To The Subsim Community > jimislander
Highly Recommended SH5 > The Wolves Of Steel Mega Mod (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2165720&postcount=1)
Highly Recommended > LIVING SILENT HUNTER III EDITION 2015 Mega Mod (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=220285) > Full Tutorials And Much More In My Signature

[Red Devil]

I tried the steam version and it sucks, to be blunt. It kept freezing and crashing, so I asked for, and got, a refund.