subsim censorship

[kranz]

so, how much does ikalugin pay you to cover up his dirty lies about russians?
seriously, tell me. I might offer a bit more so that moderators wouldn't have to secretly delete 'inconvenient' posts.

[Oberon]

https://allthingsvice.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/tin_foil_hat.gif

[Betonov]

kranz, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

You're to agresive. Tone it down, mock, don't attack.
And try to forget the cold war happened. There's too much heating soup no one wanted to eat 30 years ago as it is.

[u crank]

Same old problem. Same solution. If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.:O:

[ikalugin]

A thread in my honour. How nice of you. And just to be clear - I don't pay SubSim, I did not even donate to it.

[Jimbuna]

so, how much does ikalugin pay you to cover up his dirty lies about russians?
seriously, tell me. I might offer a bit more so that moderators wouldn't have to secretly delete 'inconvenient' posts.

I'm not sure who you're referring to but this issue you appear to have is beginning to get a little old and wearing thin.

If you have issues with a certain individual or that of their country then debate the matter in a civil manner without resorting to personal attacks. Better still, take it to PM.

Having a pop at any of the moderators in public will do nothing other than bring about a swift conclusion to any matter.

You may even consider taking some of the advice offered by your peer group.

Your decision, your choice.

[Rockstar]

Maybe I can be of some assistance, I'm ikalugin's handler and customer satisfaction is our guarantee. If you would be so kind as to offer your detailed where abouts I will send someone over right away to help fill out the complaint forms.

[ikalugin]

Maybe I can be of some assistance, I'm ikalugin's handler and customer satisfaction is our guarantee. If you would be so kind as to offer your detailed where abouts I will send someone over right away to help fill out the complaint forms.
I hope that you send the most competent specialists, after all the rapid delivery by Iskander is so 2008 and does not quite satisfy the customers as a human, personal approach our staff provides.
http://polit.ru/media/photolib/2013/03/25/thumbs/kadyriov_1364187831.jpg.600x450_q85.jpg

[Skybird]

First he was after us evil Germans, now he is after those wicked Russians. :doh:

[u crank]

First he was after us evil Germans, now he is after those wicked Russians. :doh:

Well there was that thing back in Sept. '39. :O:

[Skybird]

What do you mean - "back then"...? Its more actual today than ever! :yeah:

:woot:

[Catfish]

Well there was that thing back in Sept. '39. :O:

Ah, but ...
http://www.haaretz.com/news/historian-threatens-to-reveal-polish-atrocities-against-jews-if-tried-for-slander-1.237256 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/historian-threatens-to-reveal-polish-atrocities-against-jews-if-tried-for-slander-1.237256)

And there's also:

Polish Atrocities
Against the German Minority in Poland
Edited and published by order of the Foreign Office,
Volk und Reich Verlag Berlin, 2nd. revised ed., 1940, 311 pp.

:O:


Ok i'd say i am sorry, but isn't it a bit dumb to blame nations for what they did in the past, with generations that have long passed away. While i feel that our country behaved thoroughly wrong and atrocious and we should not forget it to prevent future events like that, i sure do not feel responsible for it personally.
Just like Ikalugin.

B.t.w is there any excuse by England for what the Empire has done for centuries, or does India or China still accuse them for enforced drug trafficking or colonial suppression.

If there is any sensibility, some moderator should close this thread :hmm2:

[CCIP]

If there is any sensibility, some moderator should close this thread :hmm2:


But that would be censorship! :huh:

[Oberon]

B.t.w is there any excuse by England for what the Empire has done for centuries

Tea. :yep:

[Catfish]

^ You win.

[u crank]

Ok i'd say i'd say i am sorry, but isn't it a bit dumb to blame nations for what they did in the past, with generations that have long passed away. While i feel that our country behaved thoroughly wrong and atrocious and we should not forget it to prevent future events like that, i sure do not feel responsible for it personally.
Just like Ikalugin.

Well said. I'm sure if we wanted to any one of us could bring up the past and hold grudges for things that other generations have done. My ancestors were Acadians and there are some of them who can't get over 1755. I'm over it. I was never under it. The future is all we have.

[mapuc]

Sad we didn't lived nearby each other I would have invited you to our nearest pub and the first beer was on me- so we could be friends

Markus

[Aktungbby]

First he was after us evil Germans, now he is after those wicked Russians. :doh:

"black as the pit from pole to pole" -INVICTUS:D :rotfl2:

[August]

First he was after us evil Germans, now he is after those wicked Russians. :doh:

Given what your two countries have done to his over the past 100 years can you blame him?

[Bilge_Rat]

so, how much does ikalugin pay you to cover up his dirty lies about russians?
seriously, tell me. I might offer a bit more so that moderators wouldn't have to secretly delete 'inconvenient' posts.

Kranz,

you are looking at this all wrong. What you have to ask yourself is how many people are gullible enough to believe there are no Russian troops in ukraine. :ping:

[Nippelspanner]

Given what your two countries have done to his over the past 100 years can you blame him?
Yes, absolutely.
Because hating or even criticizing a nations people today for things that happened generations ago is a testimony of stupidity, ignorance and lack of education in that matter.

'The Russians' raped and massacred German civilians in WW2.
So... no one can blame me if I'd hate all 'dem pesky Russkies, right?
Great logic August. But then again... I'm not surprised.:yeah:

Sometimes...

[August]

Yes, absolutely.
Because hating or even criticizing a nations people today for things that happened generations ago is a testimony of stupidity, ignorance and lack of education in that matter.

'The Russians' raped and massacred German civilians in WW2.
So... no one can blame me if I'd hate all 'dem pesky Russkies, right?
Great logic August. But then again... I'm not surprised.:yeah:

Sometimes...

Like I care whether you're surprised or not. Given what your grandfathers did to his I think it's entirely reasonable that they remain suspicious and distrusting of your claims of rehabilitation for a few more generations at least.

[Catfish]

Given what your two countries have done to his over the past 100 years can you blame him?

Oh yes i can.

What, on the other hand, have german relatives of former prussian land owners to do or demand from now polish owners of said property, generations later? Do they really miss "their" country, or isn't that just political bull? Next war?

If i get on a vendetta against any successor or relative (or anyone else) of anyone who has done something wrong against any member of any germanic tribe in the last 2000 years, or at least three generations ago, i will most probably end up like a good motivated citizen in the middle east.

:03:

[CCIP]

Like I care whether you're surprised or not. Given what your grandfathers did to his I think it's entirely reasonable that they remain suspicious and distrusting of your claims of rehabilitation for a few more generations at least.

Rehabilitation from what? Are you suggesting that being born to a particular nationality or family means you have to be "rehabilitated" or apologize for what other people chose to do?

And let's not forget, if you dig far enough, things are not entirely clean on any side of history. Poland - like any other country - has plenty of skeletons in its closet. I'm not suggesting digging any of them up, of course, because that's shallow and petty. Just like attacking someone who offers a perspective that disagrees with yours, but has always been able to rationally discuss it, concede points, look for evidence, and otherwise behave as an exemplary forum member, is shallow and petty.

Likewise, I can't claim to speak for a nation or group in particular, but it strikes me as rather vapid to constantly get on the soapbox and proclaim victimhood for the sake of shutting down everybody else. Who made you the ambassador of all the victims of Russian imperialism, and what are things going to look like if every one of us decides to randomly become the victimhood ambassador of their persecuted group? Being Russian/Ukrainian/German/Finnish in almost equal parts in my heritage, am I, for example, supposed to be in a constant state of demanding apologies from myself to myself? Or maybe we should just shut the forums down before one of our native American members (and I know there's been a few) declares every discussion of US politics to be offensive since it legitimizes the illegal annexation of native lands?

[Nippelspanner]

Like I care whether you're surprised or not. Given what your grandfathers did to his I think it's entirely reasonable that they remain suspicious and distrusting of your claims of rehabilitation for a few more generations at least.
Thank you for supporting my point...:rotfl2:

[Oberon]

Wow...that's all I can say...just wow.

Well...I guess we'd better start with the ancient homo sapien transgressions against neanderthals and work on from there. :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Us Slovenes collaborated with Napoleon.
And the south slavs were a part of the destruction of the Roman empire.
And my noble side of the ancestry, feudalism should be a crime on it's own.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Wow...that's all I can say...just wow.

Well...I guess we'd better start with the ancient homo sapien transgressions against neanderthals and work on from there. :hmmm:

Yes this :dead::dead:

[Tango589]

Rehabilitation?
No, no, no.


Being Russian/Ukrainian/German/Finnish in almost equal parts in my heritage, am I, for example, supposed to be in a constant state of demanding apologies from myself to myself?
Yes, just as I have had to have long reconciliatory talks between my English and Irish ancestry, where we thrashed out peace talks, reached agreements and promised to stop letting off violent explosions in my underpants.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Wow...that's all I can say...just wow.

Well...I guess we'd better start with the ancient homo sapien transgressions against neanderthals and work on from there. :hmmm:If we go that route, I predict overcrowding in the Brig... :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

kranz, Subsim will let you have your say, will let you voice your opinion, within a pretty wide set of limits. If you begin to think that you can settle world affairs by attacking other members here, then you need to stop and re-think.

[Wolferz]

Just do what I do and blame everything on that harlot, Jodie Foster.:O::yep:

[nikimcbee]

When Germans suck,
and Russians suck too.
Do what I do
and love a Finn true.

http://darbylt.tripod.com/images/Blackierose.jpg
**No ferrets were actually loved in this post. Just a figure of speech.

[Oberon]

**No ferrets were actually loved in this post. Just a figure of speech.

No pictures shown either. :03:

[August]

Rehabilitation from what? Are you suggesting that being born to a particular nationality or family means you have to be "rehabilitated" or apologize for what other people chose to do?

Not at all. What I am suggesting is that societies do not shake memories of the past as easily and quickly as some here would have it and that some understanding of that is in order.

And let's not forget, if you dig far enough, things are not entirely clean on any side of history. Poland - like any other country - has plenty of skeletons in its closet. I'm not suggesting digging any of them up, of course, because that's shallow and petty. Just like attacking someone who offers a perspective that disagrees with yours, but has always been able to rationally discuss it, concede points, look for evidence, and otherwise behave as an exemplary forum member, is shallow and petty.

So you think what I wrote was an attack? Since when is a willingness to understand someone elses point of view an attack?

Likewise, I can't claim to speak for a nation or group in particular, but it strikes me as rather vapid to constantly get on the soapbox and proclaim victimhood for the sake of shutting down everybody else. Who made you the ambassador of all the victims of Russian imperialism and what are things going to look like if every one of us decides to randomly become the victimhood ambassador of their persecuted group?

Hyperbole much CCIP? Are you trying to tell me that we should not be allowed to even sympathize with a (formally) persecuted group? Certainly sounds like it to me. How tired are your arms from stretching my simple statement into such a grandiose statement as that?

Being Russian/Ukrainian/German/Finnish in almost equal parts in my heritage, am I, for example, supposed to be in a constant state of demanding apologies from myself to myself? Or maybe we should just shut the forums down before one of our native American members (and I know there's been a few) declares every discussion of US politics to be offensive since it legitimizes the illegal annexation of native lands?

I'm not going to be bullied by you or anyone else CCIP. There's a lot about Kranzes posts that I don't agree with but I'm not going to criticize a Poles wariness of Germans or Russians. FWIW neither would I criticize a Dakota or Apaches wariness of making treaties with the US Federal government either even though it's been many generations since Wounded Knee. If I read your opinion right though you'd say that's shallow and petty right?

[Aktungbby]

Wow...that's all I can say...just wow.

Well...I guess we'd better start with the ancient homo sapien transgressions against neanderthals and work on from there. :hmmm:

NOW NOW! let's not generalize and be truly offensive here! It's Cro-Magnon transgressions against shortlegged Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis so as to not offend our Sino-American(who also nibbled captives), Peking and African homo erectus types inadvertently... the real no-class is making necklaces out of their teeth!:nope:http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/30/article-0-0BC017E6000005DC-295_634x585.jpgOL' Kranz is just indulging in some :subsim: parrhesia IMHO. The Socratic form of fearless, plain and unintimidated speech:88) as described in Plato's Apology :smug: line 24A; you probably missed it on your first reading!:oops:

[nikimcbee]

Who ya calling "short-legged?"

[Aktungbby]

Who ya calling "short-legged?"
Wolferz: Just do what I do and blame everything on that harlot, Jodie Foster. Hopefully I'll se ya in San D. Never mind the Hamm's; I'm bringn' a little Chianti and a hot date...Clarice :woot::haha: https://www.sagrona.com/static/photos/wine/2009_upright.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Le_Moustier.jpg/400px-Le_Moustier.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Le_Moustier.jpg)Hey are those Cro Magnons lurkin' over there? Set the table; we're din-din BBY!

[Sailor Steve]

OL' Kranz is just indulging in some :subsim: parrhesia IMHO. The Socratic form of fearless, plain and unintimidated speech:88) as described in Plato's Apology :smug: line 24A; you probably missed it on your first reading!:oops:
Which is within accepted policy, if done properly. He is also indulging in simple name-calling, which is unquestionably against Subsim policy. Either make a case and prove it, or don't. If it's the latter, don't say anything or be prepared to take the consequences.

[ikalugin]

I see that this thread was derailed.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Ridicule and derailment are the only way to deal with threads like this. Oberon got it right first time.

[Betonov]

Ridicule and derailment are the only way to deal with threads like this. Oberon got it right first time.

We should have knocked over the Mallard in York and use that as an official Subsim ''thread derailed'' image

[Catfish]

Hopefully I'll se ya in San D. Never mind the Hamm's; I'm bringn' a little Chianti and a hot date...Clarice :woot::haha:


You sure meant Claret ? :D

[Aktungbby]

I see that this thread was derailed.

Ridicule and derailment are the only way to deal with threads like this. Oberon got it right first time.

:sign_yeah:

[Aktungbby]

You sure meant Claret ? :D

Oh no! a Napa man knows his Chianti from his Claret...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Ptctl5_qQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99Ptctl5_qQ) :haha:

[Herr-Berbunch]

We should have knocked over the Mallard in York and use that as an official Subsim ''thread derailed'' image

I think the trustees of the National Railway Museum may have had something to say about that. And even with Hodor on our side I doubt we'd have shifted over 100 tons of deadweight.

[kranz]

I'm not sure who you're referring to but this issue you appear to have is beginning to get a little old and wearing thin.

quite the opposite. the censorship here is getting worse. I'm here since 2007 and I can't recall my posts being secretly deleted.
Yes - I've been infracted a few times but I would never call that censorship.
And I'm referring to the person who deletes my posts.

If you have issues with a certain individual or that of their country then debate the matter in a civil manner without resorting to personal attacks. Better still, take it to PM.

no idea why you think I'm attacking anyone's country. you might have also confused 'personal attacks' with disproving someone's lies. 'You choice'.


Having a pop at any of the moderators in public will do nothing other than bring about a swift conclusion to any matter.

right. the ukraine thread has already had one moderator with a 'tl;dr' attitude.
but now it appears that when I pinpoint my claim and one's fallacies because someone didn't take time to read the thread, it's called 'having a pop at moderators'.

Given what your two countries have done to his over the past 100 years can you blame him?
Skybird came here with his silly remark about 'being after Germany and Russia', u_crank followed him with another silly remark about September 39. Our forum doctorate-to-be, CCIP, drew conclusions from what was said earlier and called me a russophobe and started all this 'hes against russia'.
So basically we are neither going to discuss who is deleting posts nor why lies are allowed. But we are going to lynch me for being a russophobe.
Thank God Tribesman has been brigged - I'm pretty sure he would add a 'Jew-eater' title.

Kranz,
you are looking at this all wrong. What you have to ask yourself is how many people are gullible enough to believe there are no Russian troops in ukraine. :ping:
well, judging from this thread - a LOT.
One or two people being gullible - no problem.
10 people - no problem.
the whole forum - no problem.
deleting 'inconvenient' posts revealing lies of gullible people - a huge problem.

You proved him wrong, I did the same - he didn't care. He keeps posting his 'maps, facts and whatnot' and tries to fit his narration into what he currently needs. He is an 'exemplary' forum member and I'm a russophobe. :yeah:

kranz, Subsim will let you have your say, will let you voice your opinion, within a pretty wide set of limits. If you begin to think that you can settle world affairs by attacking other members here, then you need to stop and re-think.

I'm not trying to settle world affairs. I'm just trying to prevent 'revisionism' taking place in one of the threads.
Besides, the limits you mentioned are apparently set to more than one scale when it comes to applying them.

[Oberon]

http://www.urbanwoot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/dig1.jpg

[Jeff-Groves]

Uh Oh! I can see this out the back door!

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/226/504/ban-hammer.jpg

[CCIP]

One thing to add to myself - I'm sorry if I come off attacking, because I don't mean to label anyone or bully them or chase them out, and that certainly applies to both of you, kranz and August. Sorry if I came off that way. I only mean to call out speaking points and behaviour, and I mean no offense towards anyone's personality. Despite all I might disagree on, I have lots of respect for both of you and am not trying to offend you - sorry if I did.

Another thing: I don't hold a monopoly on truth, and I don't think anyone else should either. One thing that I (being very much anti-Putin, anti-crimean-annexation, anti-current-Russian-policy in general) have always done is checked and cross-checked, and you'll see that even in the Ukraine thread, I've repeatedly pointed out caveats, bias, etc. when I saw them, in ikalugin's posts and elsewhere. I've never once seen him react badly or fail to acknowledge information bias. Believe me, since I frequent Russian discussion media, and I know what a paid pro-govenment shill sounds like and behaves like. Ikalugin is nowhere near that, and I think it's unfair to single him out, especially since even if his information does come from particular sources, he never overclaims anything about it and is amenable to polemics.

The notion of distortion presumes an objective truth about the situation. I'm sorry to say, but I think we're about as far as we can be from having an objective picture of what's going on in the Ukraine. There's very little independent reporting, and there are mass campaigns - on both sides - to spin the situation to political advantage. I'm sorry to say, but anyone right now who claims to have some kind of true understanding of it (and thus fights distortion) is a bit misled. I'd rather see things from both sides right now, and I don't see how ikalugin's posts are not helping in that. Don't like his maps? Find other maps. You might say he has a "Russian media machine" behind him, but actually there's easily-found resources from the Ukrainian side doing the same thing. There's a whole community of pro-Ukrainian blogs out there compiling information, videos, evidence, maps, etc. It's very easy to find some backup to help your cause, and nobody will stop you from that here.

[Cybermat47]

Like I care whether you're surprised or not. Given what your grandfathers did to his I think it's entirely reasonable that they remain suspicious and distrusting of your claims of rehabilitation for a few more generations at least.

How can we trust you?

After all, all Americans these days are rapist mass-murderers, by your logic. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)

All of you should apologise for something you have no responsibility for, right away :yep:

[Oberon]

Can I apologise for our future conduct against alien races? :hmmm:

[Jeff-Groves]

Can I apologise for our future conduct against alien races? :hmmm:

By Alien do you mean 'off World'?
:har:

[Oberon]

By Alien do you mean 'off World'?
:har:

In before our resident squirrel:

http://images.cdbaby.name/n/i/nicksiegel.jpg

[Jeff-Groves]

According to the Foil Hat crowd?
We have already sliced and diced them, Autopsy, stolen downed craft and hidden them and more.
:haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Okay, this is where I fall into my bad habit of actually discussing the subject rather than just handing out infractions.
quite the opposite. the censorship here is getting worse. I'm here since 2007 and I can't recall my posts being secretly deleted.
Yes - I've been infracted a few times but I would never call that censorship.
And I'm referring to the person who deletes my posts.
I believe the moderator who deleted your post did so rather than just brig you for the obviously hostile attack.

no idea why you think I'm attacking anyone's country. you might have also confused 'personal attacks' with disproving someone's lies. 'You choice'.
So far I don't see that you have "disproved" anything. In the deleted post you simply called someone a "dirty liar". Can you show where you have proven that to be true?

right. the ukraine thread has already had one moderator with a 'tl;dr' attitude.
but now it appears that when I pinpoint my claim and one's fallacies because someone didn't take time to read the thread, it's called 'having a pop at moderators'.
First, where exactly did you pinpoint your claim? Did you show the subject of your attacks that he was wrong? Did you prove that he was lying? Please explain.

Second, your opening post of this thread says so, how much does ikalugin pay you to cover up his dirty lies about russians?
seriously, tell me. I might offer a bit more so that moderators wouldn't have to secretly delete 'inconvenient' posts.
You accuse the staff here of taking bribes to side with one person or another. That is definitely "having a pop at moderators".

Skybird came here with his silly remark about 'being after Germany and Russia', u_crank followed him with another silly remark about September 39. Our forum doctorate-to-be, CCIP, drew conclusions from what was said earlier and called me a russophobe and started all this 'hes against russia'.
So basically we are neither going to discuss who is deleting posts nor why lies are allowed. But we are going to lynch me for being a russophobe.;
Who is trying to lynch you? "Lynch" means to execute someone, usually by hanging, without a trial. I assume you mean metaphorically, as in convicting you unfairly. Nobody is doing anything because they believe you have something against Russia, or any other country. People will argue with you for saying all Russians are liars, but that's just arguing. But when you call another member a liar you should be ready to prove it. Couple that with the fact that name-calling in general is not allowed at Subsim.

Thank God Tribesman has been brigged - I'm pretty sure he would add a 'Jew-eater' title.
That's pretty funny, considering that Tribesman was brigged for repeatedly calling somebody a liar.

You proved him wrong, I did the same - he didn't care. He keeps posting his 'maps, facts and whatnot' and tries to fit his narration into what he currently needs. He is an 'exemplary' forum member and I'm a russophobe. :yeah:
I see where people have argued against him. I fail to see where you or anyone has "proved" him wrong. He is an exemplary forum member because he has backed up his argument with facts (whether right or wrong) and hasn't attacked anyone or called them names as a means of so-called "argument". I don't know whether you are a Russophobe or not. Other members have suggested that. You have not gotten into trouble for that. You have gotten into trouble for violating forum rules by attacking other members and stooping to making accusations you haven't proven.

I'm not trying to settle world affairs. I'm just trying to prevent 'revisionism' taking place in one of the threads.
But the threads you're posting in are devoted to world affairs, and world affairs are what the discussions are about. Are you concerned with the affairs being discussed, or are you interested in attacking members who disagree with you?

Besides, the limits you mentioned are apparently set to more than one scale when it comes to applying them.
You now accuse the staff of applying double standards. You have also said as much to me privately. Can you show and prove that this is so, or is this just another accusation because we don't agree with your assessment?

[mapuc]

According to the Foil Hat crowd?
We have already sliced and diced them, Autopsy, stolen downed craft and hidden them and more.
:haha:


It is true. Fox Mulder told it to me throug my toilet.

Markus

[Betonov]

How can we trust you?

After all, all Americans these days are rapist mass-murderers, by your logic. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre)

All of you should apologise for something you have no responsibility for, right away :yep:

It has to be quantity, not just quality. One town does not qualify it [sarcasm]

[Jeff-Groves]

OK. Anyone from a guiltless country raise your hands.
:o

[Betonov]

OK. Anyone from a guiltless country raise your hands.
:o

:oops:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Pit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C4%8Devski_Rog_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foibe_killings

[Jeff-Groves]

Face it. We, as a species, engage in killing one another as a top priority.
You don't like my religion? I kill you.
You don't like I'm on the other side of the river? I guess I'll kill you.
Over on the other side of the World? Oh Damn!! I gotta kill you!
:o
It' the major insane driver Humans are subject to.
:haha:

[ikalugin]

CCIP, indeed there is a sad lack of an objective picture from Ukrainian crisis. Thus one has to live with a subjective view of it, and with both sides conducting an informational offensive it is hard to stay impartial.

[HunterICX]

OK. Anyone from a guiltless country raise your hands.
:o

http://i.imgur.com/dnVjnQM.jpg

:D

[StdDev]

OK. Anyone from a guiltless country raise your hands.
:o
I'm pretty sure Neal is from Gondwanaland, but I still apologize for him!

[Onkel Neal]

I can't find that on the map, if it's north of Dallas, it's a lie :arrgh!: