The AC-130J Ghostrider Will Get A Big Ass Gun Afterall

[Jimbuna]

I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one of these!! :o

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-ac-130j-ghostrider-will-get-a-big-ass-gun-afterall-1682493641

[Stealhead]

Well the 105 is not new the Vietnam are Specters had them and they had them in the early 2000s as well. So in my book its a new old gun. In Vietnam the 105 was the primary killing weapon. There's footage from Afghanistan of the old 105 in use.

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that, reminds me a little of 'Puff The Magic Dragon'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKOrpyO0z48

[Platapus]

The AC-130 is a very effective weapon in today's combat environment.

[Stealhead]

As I recall the original Specter had four 20mm vulcans and two 40mm Bofors. Experience quickly lead them to favor the 40mm as these had better standoff range. So they removed two of the vulcans and placed a 105mm cannon in the rear.

My uncle served as the TV\FLIR operator in the reserves for a time. He said that the 40mm rounds being WWII and Korea vintage often where duds and they had to unjam them often. I think they where thinking of using a single barrel cannon in 25 or 30mm range similar to the Bushmaster used on Bradleys and several USMC AFVs. These would replace the Vulcan and bofors. Some had the two 20mm vulcans replaced with a single 25mm.

I would say with modern technology a single chain type cannon like the bushmaster and a 105mm would be very effective. Now even 25 and 30mm rounds can have proximity burst capacity. Just imagine air burst 30mm shells and spot on 105mm raining down on you. Pretty much you're wasted.

I guess an Apache comes close except an Apache can't loiter and its 30mm is not as accurate. Flechette tipped rockets are very deadly but loadout is limited. Same issue with the hellfire. A Specter can loiter and drop 105 rounds all night and its gun is only covering you while arty at a FB also has to cover other areas. You can simply wait for the Apache to run out of fuel or munitions with a Specter you can't wait him out.

[Oberon]

What would be more fuel efficient though, a Spooky loitering or an Apache hovering? Also, does the Spooky have the laser lock ability of the Apache? I imagine it does, most modern ground attack aircraft do. I imagine the stand-off distance is greater in the Apache coupled with the Hellfire and Longbow systems...but, that being said, I ponder if a Spooky could use a targetting computer to fire a shell from stand-off distance and have it hit a target lasered by a forward observer.
I mean, Spooky usually needs to loiter at altitude and within visual (camera) distance of the target, the Apache can hide behind a hill and fire its Hellfires out of enemy AAA and SAM range and those Hellfires can hit their targets as required. Also, I'm not sure about the on board electronics of the Spooky, but I know the Apache can use its Longbow radar and peek over hilltops and tree lines to paint the enemy (as can the Kiowa IIRC, only that can also use its camera and lase targets whilst hiding behind hills and trees) and then send a multitude of Hellfires over the hill top to meet them. Admittedly though, the cost per Hellfire versus the cost of an artillery shell, it's a completely different magnitude.

I guess, really, what it boils down to is different applications for each platform, the Spooky is, quite literally the artillery, an area affect weapon, whereas the Apache is more like a sniper, a precise long range killing machine. Honestly, for the kind of warfare we're in now, a Spooky will do just fine, an Apache is a bit like the F-35, overkill and overpriced for desert counter-insurgency operations. But the Apache has her role, and as we drift into Cold War II: Cold Harder, she'll be back in Europe where she belongs. :03:


(Note: All statements are the written confessions of an Apache fanboy and as such may contain trace elements of bias and AGM-114)

[Stealhead]

Well the Hellfire has a limited range about 6 miles the 105mm of course exceeds that. An Apache is typically only going to have ten to fifteen of loiter before its bingo fuel or when its Winchester (out of ammo). Then it'll have to fly back and get rearmed and refuled. Therefore an enemy can simply choose to disengage when they know the Apache is present and then reengage when it leaves. The Taliban became very skilled at this.

Not sure what the Specter has but surely it is on par and more than likely superior to the Apaches optics and guidance. Of course the Apache is really designed to fight a technicaly equal enemy force originally being destined to destroy Soviet AFVs get rearmed rinse wash repeat. The Specter is more focused on support of special forces. So it brings the pain when a smaller force is in trouble. Though a single Specter back in 2004 pretty much by itself kept enemy forces in Fullujah from over running Marine positions.

I'd say that the Apache is a scapel the AC-130 is a sledge hammer. As you said. Hellfire is a good tank\AFV killer and they did make thermoberic versions though not ideal for antipersonnel.

A change for the Apache is soon it will have to scout and hunt as the Kiowa will be retired it had a better optics system. The D and new E (which is a D with improved power or in effect the American version of the Westland Apache) the D was unable to carry the mast mounted radar in Iraq or Afghanistan while the Westland version did UK and NL).

[Oberon]

Well the Hellfire has a limited range about 6 miles the 105mm of course exceeds that. An Apache is typically only going to have ten to fifteen of loiter before its bingo fuel or when its Winchester (out of ammo). Then it'll have to fly back and get rearmed and refuled. Therefore an enemy can simply choose to disengage when they know the Apache is present and then reengage when it leaves. The Taliban became very skilled at this.

Not sure what the Specter has but surely it is on par and more than likely superior to the Apaches optics and guidance. Of course the Apache is really designed to fight a technicaly equal enemy force originally being destined to destroy Soviet AFVs get rearmed rinse wash repeat. The Specter is more focused on support of special forces. So it brings the pain when a smaller force is in trouble. Though a single Specter back in 2004 pretty much by itself kept enemy forces in Fullujah from over running Marine positions.

I'd say that the Apache is a scapel the AC-130 is a sledge hammer. As you said. Hellfire is a good tank\AFV killer and they did make thermoberic versions though not ideal for antipersonnel.

A change for the Apache is soon it will have to scout and hunt as the Kiowa will be retired it had a better optics system. The D and new E (which is a D with improved power or in effect the American version of the Westland Apache) the D was unable to carry the mast mounted radar in Iraq or Afghanistan while the Westland version did UK and NL).

Fully agree, especially when it comes to the scalpel vs sledgehammer comparison. In something like actions in Afghanistan and Iraq you don't really need scalpels, you need sledgehammers, using scalpels is not cost effective and the Apache, as good as it is, is not in an area that it was designed for. The Spectre, being a descendent of Spooky (which I misidentified in my last post, saying Spooky instead of Spectre...sorry about that) is ideal for operations in Afghanistan, as the Spooky was in Vietnam.
I didn't realise that the Kiowa was being retired though, that's going to make things difficult for the Apache, the Kiowa/Apache team was ideal in the sort of warfare we face now, just as the Littlebird/Cobra team did well in Vietnam. So that's not good, although at least the Apache is getting some upgrades in the near future, and it's nice to see that the engine upgrade we put in is going to be rolled out to the US Apaches too. Reminds me of the P-51. :up: But the Kiowa had a damn good optics system that was well placed like the Longbow radar, and unless the E includes something like that, it's going to force the Apache to rely solely on the radar which is useful against armour and the like, but pretty useless against infantry. :/\\!!

[Stealhead]

I recon that the argument to retire the Kiowa is largely due to the advanced Longbow radar. It is highly capable to put it mildly. Of course your still forcing one airframe to perform two jobs which is not always ideal. Multi-role can be good at the same time sometimes you still want a weapon that is designed to do one thing very well.

I'm guessing that each Apache unit will have the Longbow Radome equipped birds serve as scouts. In fact Longbow can datalink with any other Apache allowing it to provide targeting data to any linked Apache and if a radar guided Hellfire is used one Longbow radome equipped Apache can send the data to one without the radome and have it fire its missile and the other Apache does the guidance. Allowing only one bird to expose itself to fire while the other only need expose its radome and with radar you don't need the laser. Though there are tricks with the laser as well that allow pop up attacks if the crew is skilled the missile only need lasing for launch and terminal phase. Meaning if you're good at mathematics you can only lase for 10 or 20% of the flight.

I think the planned ratio is one of every four has the complete Longbow package with radome. And now with the E models more powerful engines they don't have to remove the radomes in certain environments.

A book written by a British Apache pilot I'd strongly recommend is Apache: Inside the Cockpit of the Worlds Most Deadly Flying Machine. I've read it twice its that good and informative. It gives you an idea just what a Longbow Apache can do.

By the way you mentioned Spooky I'm guessing that may not have known that there where two other converted gunships used during Vietnam the AC-119 and the AC-123 there where also experiments run at Eglin AFB in FL using a modified B-57 Canberra which had a downwards firing Vulcan gun it was slewed into position for firing. The B-57 gunship never went past the testing stage partly because they had a better idea of converting it to carry the original Pave Way I and some FLIR equipment allowing it to night prowl without the need of cannon.

[Oberon]

I recon that the argument to retire the Kiowa is largely due to the advanced Longbow radar. It is highly capable to put it mildly. Of course your still forcing one airframe to perform two jobs which is not always ideal. Multi-role can be good at the same time sometimes you still want a weapon that is designed to do one thing very well.

I'm guessing that each Apache unit will have the Longbow Radome equipped birds serve as scouts. In fact Longbow can datalink with any other Apache allowing it to provide targeting data to any linked Apache and if a radar guided Hellfire is used one Longbow radome equipped Apache can send the data to one without the radome and have it fire its missile and the other Apache does the guidance. Allowing only one bird to expose itself to fire while the other only need expose its radome and with radar you don't need the laser. Though there are tricks with the laser as well that allow pop up attacks if the crew is skilled the missile only need lasing for launch and terminal phase. Meaning if you're good at mathematics you can only lase for 10 or 20% of the flight.

I think the planned ratio is one of every four has the complete Longbow package with radome. And now with the E models more powerful engines they don't have to remove the radomes in certain environments.

A book written by a British Apache pilot I'd strongly recommend is Apache: Inside the Cockpit of the Worlds Most Deadly Flying Machine. I've read it twice its that good and informative. It gives you an idea just what a Longbow Apache can do.

Ah, Ed Macy, yes...I do believe I've read that one, IIRC he details the rescue of L/Cpl Fords body from Jugroom fort? It's the multi-tasking that makes me a bit concerned, I have no doubt that the Longbow radar can paint a good target, but in an environment with the potential for collateral damage surely it's better to get the good old Mark 1 eyeball on the target just to be sure the area is clear before you drop a Hellfire on it? :hmmm:
I suppose though, you could probably loiter at maximum distance and use the optics, the Apache is pretty damn quiet at long ranges and the optics are very good. :hmmm: