Jane Fonda: ‘Hanoi Jane’ Moment Was A ‘Huge Mistake’

[Onkel Neal]

Well, interesting, after 50 years or so,
Actress Jane Fonda issued an apology late Friday for her infamous visit to North Vietnam in 1972, a moment that earned her the dubious nickname “Hanoi Jane.”

Fonda called it a “huge mistake” during a speech given at an arts center in Frederick, Maryland, the Associated Press reports. She made her comments in response to protests against her appearance.

“But those people out there… I’m a lightning rod,” Fonda told the audience, according to The Frederick News-Post. “This famous person goes and does something that looks like I’m against the troops, which wasn’t true, but it looked that way, and I’m a convenient target. So I understand.”

However, Fonda still considered her trip to the communist state at war with the U.S. a “great experience.” While on the trip, she took publicity shots manning an anti-aircraft gun used to shoot down American planes and publicly criticized the war effort against North Vietnam.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/18/fonda-hanoi-jane-moment-was-a-huge-mistake/

I never understood how she got away with that, it really seemed like a black and white case of aiding the enemy...:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Taken her a long time to come to her senses...an ulterior motive perhaps :hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

I never understood how she got away with that, it really seemed like a black and white case of aiding the enemy...:hmmm:

Clear cut, and dry case. she should still be in prison for it if you ask me.

I'm sure it made her Father, Henry Fonda, a Navy Veteran, sick to his stomach to see his daughter do such a thing

[AVGWarhawk]

Huge mistake....zero apology. She still has no idea what she did. That simple.

What a tool.

[Rockstar]

I never understood how she got away with that, ...



http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b9/9a/2b/b99a2bbe1e517e3b38b095fbeb5f831a.jpg

[U-15]

Taken her a long time to come to her senses...an ulterior motive perhaps :hmmm:

Probably got a book coming out :yep:

[Mr Quatro]

This is the first time I have heard her say she made a mistake.

Probably a spur of the moment true confession blurted out of her mouth due to the protest by veterans outside the meeting place.

It was reported several years ago that Jane Fonda had been converted to Christianity by her chauffer while she was still married to the founder of CNN, who by the way is still mad at God for his sister dying of lupus years ago.

So if she has confessed it and changed her mind we should forgive also and move on. :yep:

However this last line in Neal's link reads like this:


Fonda focused most of her talk on gender politics and encouraged the crowd to not raise boys to become “emotionally illiterate” by emphasizing masculinity.
Now she wants us to raise our boys to be gay boys ... spells war!

[VipertheSniper]

I have to ask, because it could be either way: Are you serious about that last point? Because that's a non-sequitur, or you were just being sarcastic.

[Mr Quatro]

I thought she was being serious so I was being serious about raising my boy anyway I want to, but not a sissy.

Did I read it wrong?

[U-15]

Don't think Jane Fonda has heard of The Sacred Band of Thebes, who were all male lovers within the same unit, and were well known for their ferocity in battle

[Betonov]

I think she meant raising children to hold everything inside them which ferments over the years and finally blows open with alcohol abuse and/or violence.

[Catfish]

I did not quite understand then, what the US were doing or wanting in Vietnam. But at least there was no public information possible, like nowadays. But to defend this today ?

"If he's dead he was a viet cong."

" .. before i came to Saigon, i had heard and read, that Napalm melts flesh, and i thought this was bs, because when i shove a roast into the oven the fat melts, but the flesh stays.
I went over and saw children burnt by napalm, and it was just true. The chemical reaction melts the flesh and it flows down their face on the chest, and there it stays and keeps growing.
those children could not move their head [...] and when inflammation set in, they cut off their hands, or the feet. The only thing they could not cut off, was their head ..."

Not to speak of the deformation still taking place with newly born, due to genetically active agent orange and other nice stuff.

If the military had had their way, we would never have heard of My Lai, according to them this massacre was a "military success".
The people who researched this and made it public, were simple soldiers, photographers and an investigative journalist. The soldier who spoke first of it was called a traitor, a dirty swine, a Hanoi agent [sic!], a communist, a jew, and a disgrace for society, by most of the US media, and the military. Are we there again, or still?

If Mrs Fonda regrets what she thought or said against the Vietnam war at the time (and b.t.w. the link does not look like it), she'd be probably suffering from dementia.

[Bilge_Rat]

I dont think the issue was protesting the war, that was very widespread in '72, you often had anti-war rallies with hundred of thousands participating.

The issue was visiting North Vietnam in time of war, that was pretty much over the top, not to mention this picture:

http://thehollowearthinsider.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Hanoi-Jane-Fonda-sets-on-an-Enemy-ainti-aircraft-gun-SOURCE-Unknown.jpg

[Catfish]

^ :hmm2:

I see, i did not know that. I just thought she protested against the whole war, not just for the other side.

Will have to get some more information on that. Sorry :-?

[MH]

I did not quite understand then, what the US were doing or wanting in Vietnam. But at least there was no public information possible, like nowadays. But to defend this today ?.

USA was fighting communism and communist insurgency as global policy.
It made sense at that time.
Problem was that this war dragged on for too long and due to geopolitical circumstances decisive victory turned out to be impossible.
America rightly left Vietnam due to pressure at home and generally horrifying nature of the war that could not be won.
Eventually it turned out the communism did not took over the world ( portably it never could ) while the conflicts continued elsewhere.

At the end what happened after N. Vietnamese took over?
Millions executed , disappeared.

While criticizing American policy during cold war , interesting question is what would happen if USA had been passive during whole cold war.
How world would look today , if lives would had been saved or worth living.
Shortly would world be better place.?
...not that im against criticism . I don't like the trendy ones.

[VipertheSniper]

I think she meant raising children to hold everything inside them which ferments over the years and finally blows open with alcohol abuse and/or violence.

That's how I read it too... maybe not quite as drastic, but yeah...

[Mr Quatro]

USA was fighting communism and communist insurgency as global policy.
It made sense at that time.
Problem was that this war dragged on for too long and due to geopolitical circumstances decisive victory turned out to be impossible.
America rightly left Vietnam due to pressure at home and generally horrifying nature of the war that could not be won.
Eventually it turned out the communism did not took over the world ( portably it never could ) while the conflicts continued elsewhere.

At the end what happened after N. Vietnamese took over?
Millions executed , disappeared.

While criticizing American policy during cold war , interesting question is what would happen if USA had been passive during whole cold war.
How world would look today , if lives would had been saved or worth living.
Shortly would world be better place.?
...not that im against criticism . I don't like the trendy ones.

Give this man a lighthouse :yep:

Plus the lessons learned may have kept us out of other world conflicts.

Plus led to an all volunteer fighting force of men and women that serve today.

[fred8615]

This is not her first so called "apology." Some years back she also "apologized" while filming some movie, after vets started protesting while they were shooting. I think she also wrote in a book or in an interview the AA gun picture was a "mistake." :roll:

My question is, has she ever apologized for calling the POWs "liars and hypocrites" for saying when they got home they were being tortured by the North Vietnamese, when she publicly proclaimed they were being well treated during her trip?

[Platapus]

Did she use the words "I am sorry" and "I made a made a mistake/I was wrong"?

This sterile "it was a mistake" kinda distances her from what she said and what she did. This an issue about what SHE did and what SHE said. Not some intellectual impersonal mistake.

Those are the words I would like to hear.

[Stealhead]

Probably got a book coming out :yep:

As I recall she did write a book a few years ago where she wrote about the whole Vietnam trip and how she was wrong. Apparently at signings there where a surprising number of Vietnam Vets buying the book. I guess maybe to see her in person.

Honestly seems like it depends on who you ask some Nam Vets knew she was young and being duped and where not that upset about it. My father for example never was bothered and he was very much a direct combatant. He is not the only Nam Vet that I know personally that feels that way.

I knew another guy that did talk about her a lot he ended up shooting himself in the head so I think he had other issues and would have these post war problems regardless of anything Jane Fonda did or did not do.

I think she made a poor choice at young age which is the point where most of us make bad decisions only hers was more public and pretty bad.

[Onkel Neal]

The protesting I can understand. Vietnam was a difficult time, and since we are a democracy, the right to oppose government actions is part of the game. But visiting an enemy nation and helping them with propaganda... well, I guess it surprises me that she could reenter the country easily.

[August]

Huge mistake....zero apology. She still has no idea what she did. That simple.

What a tool.

Exactly. To her "a huge mistake" only means what being a traitor to her country cost her professionally, not that what she did was morally wrong.

[Stealhead]

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

The book was published in 2005 she got tobacco spit on by a man claiming to be a vet at one signing. Its in there way at the bottom. As well as three quoted direct apologies for Platpus .

Not saying I'm a fan of Fonda but I am a fan of the truth.

[GoldenRivet]

I dont think the issue was protesting the war, that was very widespread in '72, you often had anti-war rallies with hundred of thousands participating.

The issue was visiting North Vietnam in time of war, that was pretty much over the top, not to mention this picture:

http://thehollowearthinsider.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Hanoi-Jane-Fonda-sets-on-an-Enemy-ainti-aircraft-gun-SOURCE-Unknown.jpg

I see Jane Fonda crewing an anti aircraft gun in participation with enemy combatants

[Jeff-Groves]

To A huge Star with a lot of Money?
It's always a 'mistake' that we should pat them on the back for and say 'there there' all is forgiven.
I vote to burn the Wench every chance we get!
:stare:

[nikimcbee]

Exactly. To her "a huge mistake" only means what being a traitor to her country cost her professionally, not that what she did was morally wrong.

I see Jane Fonda crewing an anti aircraft gun in participation with enemy combatants


Too late Jane!
Tell it to the air crew's that survived and the pilot's families who lost loved ones.

You'll always be Hanoi Jane.

[AVGWarhawk]

Exactly. To her "a huge mistake" only means what being a traitor to her country cost her professionally, not that what she did was morally wrong.

Yes but urinal stickers have sold like mad!!! She got none of the proceeds. :up:

[CCIP]

On the other hand, she's not someone who was ever in military service. Unless there's proof that she actually fired a weapon at an American or participated in illegally arming or supplying an enemy, I don't really see what crime she committed, besides the crime of horribly bad taste and stupidity. I thought freedom to travel and speak where one pleases was one of fundamentally American rights, and I did not think that American citizens who are not in military service have any obligation to prohibit themselves from traveling wherever they like and associating with whomever they want. Last I checked, being an idiot on camera does not constitute an act of armed aggression. And if it does, why aren't Romney and Cheney and co. not in prison for being buddy-buddy with Saddam?

[Jeff-Groves]

And if it does, why aren't Romney and Cheney and co. not in prison for being buddy-buddy with Saddam?
I don't think there is a Law about fraternizing with the enemy except for the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
It still boils down to the Golden Rule.
He who has the Gold Rules.
She has money so expects/demands us to forgive her.
I'll forgive her when hell freezes over and not before.

If one were to pull that same stunt with say ISIS? I could see a fast trip to Gitmo on their agenda.

[Mr Quatro]

I hated Jane Fonda for the story about giving the prisoners social security numbers they had carefully written down on small pieces of paper and handed to her which in turn it was said that she then handed to a Vietnam general standing nearby, but all lies.

Now I am the one that has to change my mind about her and where do all those lies come from anyway?

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

I have spoken with all the parties named: Carrigan, Driscoll, et al. They all state that this particular internet story is a hoax and they wish to disassociate their names from the false story.

Let's set the record straight. It has been reported on the Internet in recent years that POWs surreptitiously slipped Fonda messages which she turned over to the North Vietnamese. That story is false. Also untrue is that any POW died for refusing to meet with Fonda.

[Oberon]

where do all those lies come from anyway?

Most likely those who were never there. :03:

[Stealhead]

I hated Jane Fonda for the story about giving the prisoners social security numbers they had carefully written down on small pieces of paper and handed to her which in turn it was said that she then handed to a Vietnam general standing nearby, but all lies.

Now I am the one that has to change my mind about her and where do all those lies come from anyway?

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

I linked that already I recon that no one noticed.

[Sailor Steve]

I never understood how she got away with that, it really seemed like a black and white case of aiding the enemy...:hmmm:
What enemy would that be? The one we went overseas to try to overthrow? It wasn't even a "war".

Clear cut, and dry case. she should still be in prison for it if you ask me.
Is it? How many "cut-and-dried" beliefs here are actually based on lies?

Huge mistake....zero apology.
"I would like to say something, not just to Vietnam veterans in New England, but to men who were in Vietnam, who I hurt, or whose pain I caused to deepen because of things that I said or did. I was trying to help end the killing and the war, but there were times when I was thoughtless and careless about it and I'm very sorry that I hurt them. And I want to apologize to them and their families."
-Jane Fonda, 1988 interview with Barbara Walters


The issue was visiting North Vietnam in time of war
And yet while she was there she did indeed visit a group of POWs, bringing them letters from home and returning with letters to their families.

Did she use the words "I am sorry" and "I made a made a mistake/I was wrong"?

This sterile "it was a mistake" kinda distances her from what she said and what she did. This an issue about what SHE did and what SHE said. Not some intellectual impersonal mistake.

Those are the words I would like to hear.
"I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless."
-Jane Fonda, 2000


I see Jane Fonda crewing an anti aircraft gun in participation with enemy combatants
I see her sitting in one of the gunners' chairs, looking through the sight, while chatting with reporters holding a microphone to her face. In another photograph she is laughing with those same reporters. What I don't see is her helping to shoot the gun.

Too late Jane!
Tell it to the air crew's that survived and the pilot's families who lost loved ones.

You'll always be Hanoi Jane.
She thought she was helping to stop the war. I think it is fairly plain that the United States was the aggressor, and that we should never have been there in the first place. Was she wrong to go there? Probably. This is one veteran who believes she was trying, however mistakenly, to point out the real villains in that conflict.

Most likely those who were never there. :03:
To me that includes most of the people posting their hate in this thread.

[nikimcbee]

If you want to see someone get really wound up, bring up Hanoi Jane or John Kerry (if you're brave) with the Swift Boat vets that moor next to us at fleet week.:woot:
(spoiler alert) They go from good mood to really pissed off in about 2 seconds.

[Sailor Steve]

I have no respect for Kerry at all, but not for that reason. He served on the boats and was wounded. Some people belittle the Purple Hearts, but though at least one of them may have been minor the simple fact is that anyone who served in the freshwater navy risked his life every day.

That he threw his medals over the wall was neither here nor there. I came back disillusioned myself and took part in the Veterans Against The War movement. What bugs me about Kerry is that after being strongly anti-war he turned around and tried to run on his war record, and tried to sweep his anti-war record under the rug. I consider him to be two-faced to say the least.

I'm the same way about Clinton. I was indifferent to him until someone brought up his protest record and he tried to deny it. If he had just said "You're damned right I protested against that war! It was a bad deal and we never should have been there in the first place!", he would have gotten my vote. It's not the being for or against something for me, it's the waffling and the trying to deny it when it might hurt him politically.

I guess I just don't like politicians. Or lawyers.

[GoldenRivet]

I never said anything about "hating" Jane Fonda, i dont think the majority if the posters in the thread did either.

Hell... As Barbarella she played a major role in destroying a number of my socks when i was a pre-teen

That said... what if Angelena Jolie went to Iraq in 2003 or 2004 and posed with Jihadis who held a number of captives? how popular do you think that decision would have been? would she be right to tote along a camera crew and meet up, shake hands and trade jokes with known accomplices of Bin Laden? would that stigma follow her around for the next 40-50 years? more?

I liken the two scenarios. difference is one happened the other is hypothetical but is more "in our present time".

but like you said Steve... waffling on the issue.

In the same sentence she says it was a regrettable thing to do... then turns around and says poor me im only picked on over it because im an easy target.

[Sailor Steve]

Clear cut, and dry case. she should still be in prison for it if you ask me.

I'm sure it made her Father, Henry Fonda, a Navy Veteran, sick to his stomach to see his daughter do such a thing

I never said anything about "hating" Jane Fonda, i dont think the majority if the posters in the thread did either.
Most people don't say they "hate" anybody, but the vitriol is still there.

That said... what if Angelena Jolie went to Iraq in 2003 or 2004 and posed with Jihadis who held a number of captives? how popular do you think that decision would have been? would she be right to tote along a camera crew and meet up, shake hands and trade jokes with known accomplices of Bin Laden? would that stigma follow her around for the next 40-50 years? more?
I think I made a decent case for North Vietnam not being the bad guys in that case. Yes, they held prisoners, but only ones who were captured making war on them and their country. Yes, many of those prisoners were mistreated, and they shouldn't have been. That said, if we hadn't been in their country making war on them none of those men would have been prisoners.

You're comparing that to a group of people who have come to our country and killed thousands; a group of people who are currently in the business of capturing innocent civilians and brutally murdering them on camera; a group of people who seem to enjoy giving that treatment to anybody who disagrees with their religion.

I liken the two scenarios. difference is one happened the other is hypothetical but is more "in our present time".
And I see a huge difference, not just in the era during which it happened, but in pretty much everything.

In the same sentence she says it was a regrettable thing to do... then turns around and says poor me im only picked on over it because im an easy target.
As I once said: "I used to be young and stupid. Things have changed. I got older."

She also said that she regretted posing for those photographs, but not for going there in the first place. Sorry, but I agree with her.

[GoldenRivet]

Sorry, but I agree with her.

Well Steve, i'm going to have to disagree with her without apology - i feel like what she did was wrong. But we have two different opinions and thats ok.

[Onkel Neal]

If it wasn't a war, there was an awful lot of killing and death to call it a picnic :)

Anyway, police action or military engagement, Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam to cheer on the people we were fighting. Whether the "war" was right, wrong, or something in the middle, when you have 400,000 men fighting and one woman decides to support the enemy, it seems bizarre that she was not called in to see the State Dept when she returned.

[Sailor Steve]

But was she supporting the enemy? If the "war" is indeed wrong then is it not right to oppose it? Was she misguided? I'd say so. Stupid? Probably, but so am I. But a traitor? To what?

I've always been a big fan of the paraphrase by Walt Kelly in his comic strip Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

[Wolferz]

With knowledge comes wisdom.

Jane was young and dumb and not very wise but, more than a little idealistic at the time.
Viet Nam wasn't a war per se. So, no they couldn't exactly throw her in Leavenworth over her actions. The blowback would've rivaled a tsunami if they had.
We only know the frontline story as to why our government felt the need to get involved on that peninsula in the first place.
I could speculate that it was more about keeping a viable land route into China for the Opium barons, rather than protecting the free people in the south. Logically, it would have required a full tilt effort to conquer the North Vietnamese which would have fomented a whole new set of problems with their backers in China.:down:
We didn't lose but, were prevented from winning.
Jane's escapade did nothing to cause harm to anyone other than herself.

[CCIP]

Three issues come up here also:

1) What exactly would the legal and constitutional basis for prosecuting/jailing someone like that would be? As I said, it sounds to me like for all its worth, and an idiot though she may be, it seems to me like Fonda was within both her constitutional rights and was not breaking any international laws either when she made her visit.

2) The parallel being brought up to modern jihadists is faulty - the Ho Chi Minh government might not have been the nicest people in the world, but they're an entirely different thing from what ISIS or Al Quaeda might be and were not an illegal entity, and certainly not in Hanoi.

3) The biggest logical fallacy here, which I think is a dangerous one, is the imposition of military discipline / military codes on independent civilians, especially in (what by all legal norms was) peacetime. She did not make a pledge of service and she owes no duty to the State Department, Pentagon, or anybody else like that - just like any other private American citizen. She's free to exercise her constitutional freedoms, and be considered an idiot for it for all we care. The moment that the American government starts penalizing its private citizens under military codes in peacetime is the moment the country will, by definition, become a military dictatorship.
So please, for the love of all that's good, don't ask why your government didn't jail Fonda - be glad that she wasn't, and hope that idiots like her never will be!

[Onkel Neal]

On point 2, CCIP, I didn't make a comparison to the jihadists. :salute: I could see where the North Vietnamese were coming from, and if the US had stayed out of the aftermath of the French's bid to regain control of their colony, Vietnam, communist or not, would have been much better for it. Even after the North Vietnamese took over the country, it didn't take long for them to realize that their communist dream was a bust and start edging towards capitalism.

Why does everyone keep calling Jane Fonda an idiot?

[nikimcbee]

Why does everyone keep calling Jane Fonda an idiot?

I think you are still under Barbarella's spell. :D:haha:

[Sailor Steve]

On point 2, CCIP, I didn't make a comparison to the jihadists.
But others did.

Why does everyone keep calling Jane Fonda an idiot?Even she admits the AA-gun photos were a stupid idea. I agree that her visit was a bad idea. I just don't agree that she should have been imprisoned for it, or suffered any official consequences.

I think you are still under Barbarella's spell. :D:haha:
Who wouldn't be?

The first movie I remember seeing her in was The Tall Story, with Anthony Perkins and Ray Walston.

[Bilge_Rat]

sort of semi-related, but Sean Penn visited Iraq in december 2002 a few months before the invasion protesting the U.S. government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2577981.stm

There is a parallel, but his visit has been completely forgotten. Why does the "Hanoi Jane" story still resonate?

[Bilge_Rat]

OTOH, Iva D'Aquino, a U.S. citizen, better known as "Tokyo Rose" was convicted of treason and spent 6 years in jail, even though a DOJ investigation had concluded her broadcasts were "innocuous".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iva_Toguri_D'Aquino

[Platapus]

Perhaps it is time to let the Jane Fonda episode fade away. It is not like she is any type of politically influential person today.

I would never vote for Jane for any political position, but then again, she does not seem interested in running. She does seem to regret what she did when she was in her 30's. According to her, and there is no conflicting evidence, she was set up during that photograph.

Even today we teach our military to be on the look out for how "innocent" pictures can be used against us and our country.

Continuing to vilify her does not really help anything.

But on the other hand, everyone has the right to dislike her and that's a personal choice.

Life is too short to stress over Jane Fonda.

[Jeff-Groves]

As for the success of anti-democracy protests by radical protagonists like Fonda, John Kerry and others, Hanoi could not have been more pleased.
General Vo Nguyen Giap, supreme leader of the North Vietnamese Army, told CBS in a 1989 interview: "We paid a high price [during the Tet offensive] but so did you [Americans] ... not only in lives and materiel. Do not forget the war was brought into the living rooms of the American people. ... The most important result of the Tet offensive was it made you de-escalate the bombing, and it brought you to the negotiation table. It was, therefore, a victory.... The war was fought on many fronts. At that time the most important one was American public opinion. "
More to the point, in a 1995 interview with The Wall Street Journal, Bui Tin, a communist contemporary of Giap and Ho Chi Minh, who was serving as an NVA colonel assigned to the general staff at the time Saigon fell, had this to say about the Leftmedia and Soviet puppets like "Hanoi" Jane Fonda and John Kerry: "[They were] essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

Tells me all I need to know.

[Platapus]

Jeff, Any particular reason why you would believe what a former enemy would say? Don't you think it would be in their best interest to say what they said?

[Jeff-Groves]

The whole thing was over and done with. Any reason you think they would lie?
Sounds a lot like bragging to me.

I have my stance, you have yours. We will never agree but I respect your right to believe what you believe.

[August]

Motivation for ones actions might be a partially mitigating factor but it's certainly not an excuse. There is a vast difference between protesting a war on a college campus and hanging out with the enemy just down the street from where ones countrymen are being held captive in horrific conditions. I think the Islamic terrorist comparisons are quite apt. Nothing they have done is any worse than what the VC and NVA did routinely yet were an American actress to pose with ISIL fighters on weapons used to kill her countrymen the nation would be outraged and justifiably so.

[Jeff-Groves]

I just hope Jane goes to her grave being hounded by her actions everyday.
If that makes me a bad Guy? I'm pretty sure I can live with that.
I live with a whole hell of a lot worse things.

[Cybermat47]

I only just heard about this.

Wow. Just wow.

Please, save the visits to enemy countries for when the war is over and we aren't enemies any more.

That's just common sense.

I just hope Jane goes to her grave being hounded by her actions everyday.


Apparently she is.

[Cybermat47]

Don't think Jane Fonda has heard of The Sacred Band of Thebes, who were all male lovers within the same unit, and were well known for their ferocity in battle

Hey, I love the Sacred Band of Thebes :D

Not that they were unique with the male lovers bit. Pederastic relationships were a major part of Spartan training.

[vanjast]

You pro-USA-War people seem to forget.. that every war you've started.. you've lost, at a high price. Some people were brave enough to know this and protested... coz your politicians, then and as today, are leading you down the road to destruction and massive loss of life... under the pretext of patriotism. So when are you going to stand up and be counted.. or are you going to be a lemming and run blindly into another lost battle - there are other ways to 'skin a cat'. :)

[Jimbuna]

Didn't America win the war of independance? :hmmm:

[Jeff-Groves]

Didn't America win the war of independance? :hmmm:

You say that like it was a good thing.
Some of us are starting to wonder.
:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

You say that like it was a good thing.
Some of us are starting to wonder.
:hmmm:

LOL :)

[Sailor Steve]

Didn't America win the war of independance? :hmmm:
We didn't start it.

[Sailor Steve]

Please, save the visits to enemy countries for when the war is over and we aren't enemies any more.

That's just common sense.
Good advice, but we're talking about something that happened more than 40 years ago.

[Platapus]

We started the Mexican American war and we ended up getting stuck with Texas! :o:stare:

[Jeff-Groves]

We started the Mexican American war and we ended up getting stuck with Texas! :o:stare:

QUICK!! Somebody throw something shiny in the air before Neal see this!!
:o
:haha:

[August]

We didn't start it.


We didn't start the war in Vietnam either.

[Jeff-Groves]

We didn't start the war in Vietnam either.

Now, Now! You and I both know that wasn't a war.
It was a Police Action.
:doh:
What was Operation Urgent Fury?
(it was criticized by the United Kingdom and Canada. Those Hosers!)

[Sailor Steve]

We didn't start the war in Vietnam either.
When the British and the Americans supported the French

No, we didn't start the war between the Viet Minh and the so-called Republic of Vietnam. We did, however, side with "our" bloody dictator against "their" bloody dictator for the sole reason that "their" guy was a Godless Communist, and 58,000 of our boys died in what was essentially a civil war. The cause was wrong, our involvement was wrong, and as I've said before we should never have been there in the first place. Our government lied to us and sent us there for reasons most of us still don't understand, and I'm guessing they didn't either.

[Cybermat47]

Good advice, but we're talking about something that happened more than 40 years ago.

Oh, I know. I was just thinking out loud.





No, we didn't start the war between the Viet Minh and the so-called Republic of Vietnam. We did, however, side with "our" bloody dictator against "their" bloody dictator for the sole reason that "their" guy was a Godless Communist, and 58,000 of our boys died in what was essentially a civil war. The cause was wrong, our involvement was wrong, and as I've said before we should never have been there in the first place. Our government lied to us and sent us there for reasons most of us still don't understand, and I'm guessing they didn't either.

I don't really know that much about the politics of the Vietnam war. But I do know that as well as the deaths of 58,000 A,ericans, 500 Australians died, and 3,129 were wounded or fell ill, and all we got was a new emblem for the RAAF. So it's clear to me that the war was just a huge waste of lives.

By the way, and sorry if I'm getting this wrong, Steve, but didn't you mention something once about being in the Navy in the Vietnam War?

[Jimbuna]

By the way, and sorry if I'm getting this wrong, Steve, but didn't you mention something once about being in the Navy in the Vietnam War?

Radio man, USS Brinkley Bass (DD-887)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Brinkley_Bass_%28DD-887%29

[Oberon]

Radio man, USS Wrinkley Ass (DD-887)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Brinkley_Bass_%28DD-887%29

Fixed that for you. :up:

[Jimbuna]

Fixed that for you. :up:

:har:

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, I know. I was just thinking out loud.
I tried that once. Got my face slapped.

So it's clear to me that the war was just a huge waste of lives. It's not that clear to me, but yeah, that's been my opinion for a very long time.

By the way, and sorry if I'm getting this wrong, Steve, but didn't you mention something once about being in the Navy in the Vietnam War? That's what the patch in my sig means.

It was for a very short time, a very long time ago. I still have this

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/SteveStuff/Navy%20Pics/Turret%20Steve_zpsfmxnibjq.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/SteveStuff/Navy%20Pics/Turret%20Steve_zpsfmxnibjq.jpg.html)


and this

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/SteveStuff/Navy%20Pics/Medal20Front_zpsngwuyju1.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/SteveStuff/Navy%20Pics/Medal20Front_zpsngwuyju1.jpg.html)


Fixed that for you. :up:
Yep. That's what we called her.

[Wolferz]

I think you are still under Barbarella's spell. :D:haha:

Socks !!!

[STEED]

Who is this Jane? :hmmm:

[nikimcbee]

Hint, the first name is not Mary.:D

[STEED]

Hint, the first name is not Mary.:D

Red? :hmmm:

[August]

When the British and the Americans supported the French

No, we didn't start the war between the Viet Minh and the so-called Republic of Vietnam. We did, however, side with "our" bloody dictator against "their" bloody dictator for the sole reason that "their" guy was a Godless Communist, and 58,000 of our boys died in what was essentially a civil war. The cause was wrong, our involvement was wrong, and as I've said before we should never have been there in the first place. Our government lied to us and sent us there for reasons most of us still don't understand, and I'm guessing they didn't either.

No argument Steve but then again hindsight is always 20-20. In the late 50's when we first started sending troops over there Communism was something that had to be fought. You're right that Vietnam was essentially a civil war but it was one that both sides had outside support. The Russians and Chinese weren't going to stop supporting Ho Chi Minh if we had refused to support Diem.

[Sailor Steve]

No argument Steve but then again hindsight is always 20-20. In the late 50's when we first started sending troops over there Communism was something that had to be fought. You're right that Vietnam was essentially a civil war but it was one that both sides had outside support. The Russians and Chinese weren't going to stop supporting Ho Chi Minh if we had refused to support Diem.
That's true too. The problem I have is that there can be a fine line between having a good cause, a good reason, and a good excuse. My personal opinion is that we crossed that line and then some. On the other hand so did they, which quickly brings up the same question all over again.

As usual I don't have any answers. I tend to react strongly to people whose expressed opinions seem to me to indicate that they think they do have the answers.

"I know I don't know anything, but I think you only think you do."
-Me, from a song I wrote a few years back called 'Menace to Society'

[August]

That's true too. The problem I have is that there can be a fine line between having a good cause, a good reason, and a good excuse.

Agreed. What was that quote about the road to hell being paved with good intentions?