Greek ship in 1939: neutral or not? [Archive]

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Plague

01-19-15, 03:50 AM

BigWalleye

01-19-15, 08:28 AM

Yesterday I was in patrol in Atlantic Ocean near british coast in 1939 October 1st, and I saw a cargo traveling at nighttime with all light off.

I thought she was an enemy ship so I torpedoed her to death before I realized she was greek.
According to flags table, Greece joined Allied force only in 1940, so in 1939 that ship should have been neutral but when I returned to base the patrol's log showed that no neutral ship was sank. :o

How can you explain this?

I'm playing SH3+GWX+Merchant Fleet Mod.

Ship was running dark in enemy coastal waters. That's a "Kick me!" sign. And I'd be really torqued if the game didn't give me credit. (Not that SH3 can be relied upon for historical accuracy.:/\\!!)

BTW, how did you know the ship was Greek? Was she flying a Greek ensign? Or did she just have "I'm Greek" painted on the side? Paint is cheap and easy to get.:) The MFM has lots of these ringers. IIRC, the owner painted the ship, but she flew the flag of (and counted as belonging to) the country she was leased to. So a Greek ship under British lease was British. And should be flying the Red Ensign if you could see it.

Sailor Steve

01-19-15, 09:45 AM

Ship was running dark in enemy coastal waters. That's a "Kick me!" sign. And I'd be really torqued if the game didn't give me credit. (Not that SH3 can be relied upon for historical accuracy.:/\\!!)
The problem there is that the game doesn't have any lit ships. They are all a mod, so it is very easy to find a darkened ship that is neutral. On the other hand unless the situation was obvious U-boat kaleuns didn't usually get into trouble for that. Most of the time they didn't get into trouble for sinking friendly ships.

Plague

01-19-15, 01:01 PM

Thanks for replies.
I supposed that ship was Greek because of the Greek colors and the huge word "Greece" painted on the hull, I'm sure there was no ensign on the mast (nor Greek neither British).

I didn't understand that MFM contains such misleading ships.... now I'm thinking about how many ships in the past I let to go because of this misunderstanding :/\\!!:/\\!!:/\\!!

From now on I will show no mercy. :)

BigWalleye

01-19-15, 01:37 PM

The problem there is that the game doesn't have any lit ships. They are all a mod, so it is very easy to find a darkened ship that is neutral. On the other hand unless the situation was obvious U-boat kaleuns didn't usually get into trouble for that. Most of the time they didn't get into trouble for sinking friendly ships.

In fact, according to Clay Blair, RL commanders who sank neutrals were absolved of any blame and given full tonnage credit by BdU. Neutral tonnage counted toward qualification for a Ritterkreuz even when it was a "friendly" neutral like Spain or Portugal or if it brought the neutral into the war on the Allied side, as happened with Mexico and Brazil. Strict adherence to the Prize Rules was apparently never a serious issue.

BTW, I was unaware that lit ships were from a mod. Never played stock.:O:

Plague

01-19-15, 02:43 PM

BTW, I was unaware that lit ships were from a mod. Never played stock.:O:

Steve is right, illuminated ship is a feature of GWX.

This is a passage from GWX Manual:

Illuminated Ships

Historical background
Germany discussed treating well-lighted merchant ships as neutrals during its World War I unrestricted submarine warfare campaign, as belligerent merchant ships turned their lights off to avoid giving away their location, but this was only an informal convention. Neutral ships usually used red, green, and white navigation lights to reduce the danger of collisions at sea, but the masters of neutral merchant ships sailing alone during World War II would sail darkened if they felt U-boats would attack anyways.

Illuminated ships in GWX
Illuminated ships in GWX represent some (but not all) shipping of currently neutral countries; merchant ships from countries currently at war or allied with Germany will always sail under blackout conditions, while Red Cross hospital ships always sail under illumination. Note: Illuminated ships of neutral that leave port before their nations join the war are legitimate targets once war begins, but will remain lit until they reach port.

BigWalleye

01-19-15, 03:32 PM

Steve is right, illuminated ship is a feature of GWX.

This is a passage from GWX Manual:

Illuminated Ships

Historical background
Germany discussed treating well-lighted merchant ships as neutrals during its World War I unrestricted submarine warfare campaign, as belligerent merchant ships turned their lights off to avoid giving away their location, but this was only an informal convention. Neutral ships usually used red, green, and white navigation lights to reduce the danger of collisions at sea, but the masters of neutral merchant ships sailing alone during World War II would sail darkened if they felt U-boats would attack anyways.

Illuminated ships in GWX
Illuminated ships in GWX represent some (but not all) shipping of currently neutral countries; merchant ships from countries currently at war or allied with Germany will always sail under blackout conditions, while Red Cross hospital ships always sail under illumination. Note: Illuminated ships of neutral that leave port before their nations join the war are legitimate targets once war begins, but will remain lit until they reach port.

I was not disputing Steve's comment. I have played GWX3 and NYGM, and both of them have ships lit up at night, particularly in the early war. As I said, I've never played stock. So I have always seen ships illuminated at night (and some in daylight, too!). I just figured it was built into the game.

Plague

01-19-15, 03:37 PM

incidentally.... I can't remember any illuminated ship in nighttime since I use MFM (even if it is not so long).
Maybe it is a coincidence, but do you know if this feature is mantained in MFM?

CaptBones

01-19-15, 05:22 PM

BigWalleye

01-19-15, 05:55 PM

The lighted neutrals and Red Cross GWX ships are still there after installing MFM. I've seen quite a few, particularly in the North Sea during '39 and '40 (it's really aggravating to pursue interception of an RDF or hydrophone contact for hours, especially in bad weather, and then find those dratted nav lights and spot lights on the flag, shining brightly in the distance!).

Ah...but beware...MFM ships that have neutral hull markings but are not flying a corresponding neutral flag can, in fact, be neutrals and will cost you renown for sinking them. It's happened to me a couple of times...always a Norwegian ship crossing the North Sea heading home from Britain before April '40, (I wonder if IABL scripted them as little "Easter eggs"?) but I'd suspect there are others to challenge the "cruel" Kaleuns and reward the "chivalrous" ones! :arrgh!:

After reading Blair, I edited my Basic.cfg file to give full tonnage credit for sinking neutrals and deductions only for sinking friendlies. There was even a case of a German commander who sank a German commerce raider which was way away from its broadcast course. The skipper was exonerated (although I don't believe he was credited with the tonnage sunk :)). In my reading, I have not found a single example of a German commander who was penalized in any way for sinking a neutral, so IMO the game should reflect this historical fact.

Plague

01-20-15, 04:59 AM

Ah...but beware...MFM ships that have neutral hull markings but are not flying a corresponding neutral flag can, in fact, be neutrals and will cost you renown for sinking them.

What a pity you can't go on board to examine the documents of ships :arrgh!:

In my reading, I have not found a single example of a German commander who was penalized in any way for sinking a neutral, so IMO the game should reflect this historical fact.

I agree with you; what have you edited in the basic.cfg?

BigWalleye

01-20-15, 08:12 AM

I agree with you; what have you edited in the basic.cfg?

Just these 2 lines:

[RENOWN]
RenownReachGridObjCompleted=0; was 500
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=0; was 200
CompletedPatrol=0; was 100
NEUTRAL=1; was -1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-1; was -10

Notepad or any text editor will do.

Then you can SINK 'EM ALL!:D

Plague

01-20-15, 09:03 AM

Then you can SINK 'EM ALL!:D

:rock::rock::rock::rock:

thanks

Sailor Steve

01-20-15, 12:07 PM

After reading Blair, I edited my Basic.cfg file to give full tonnage credit for sinking neutrals and deductions only for sinking friendlies. There was even a case of a German commander who sank a German commerce raider which was way away from its broadcast course. The skipper was exonerated (although I don't believe he was credited with the tonnage sunk :)). In my reading, I have not found a single example of a German commander who was penalized in any way for sinking a neutral, so IMO the game should reflect this historical fact.
I did the same years ago, the only difference is that I gave the neutrals a value of '0'. While I agree that there shouldn't be a penalty for sinking them I also believe that I shouldn't be rewarded, and that they shouldn't indiscriminately be fair game. That makes it too easy for me to just sink anything I feel like.

Just my personal foible. :sunny:

BigWalleye

01-20-15, 03:27 PM

I did the same years ago, the only difference is that I gave the neutrals a value of '0'. While I agree that there shouldn't be a penalty for sinking them I also believe that I shouldn't be rewarded, and that they shouldn't indiscriminately be fair game. That makes it too easy for me to just sink anything I feel like.

Just my personal foible. :sunny:

Steve, your comment inspired me again. I set up the Randomized_events.cgf file in SH3C to randomly set the neutral renown multuplier to either 0 or 1. I vary the percentages with time. Early war, there is a 60% chance of no credit, going down to a 10% chance by 1942. So there is always a disincentive to sink neutrals. Most of the time, I will get full credit, but I won't know for sure at the time of the attack.

SH3C is DA BOMB!

Sailor Steve

01-20-15, 04:36 PM

Genius! :rock:

Ummm, how do I do that? :88) :oops:

BigWalleye

01-20-15, 08:29 PM

Genius! :rock:

Ummm, how do I do that? :88) :oops:

Easy! Just copy the file Cfg\Randomized events.cfg from your SH3C folder to your desktop. Open it in Notepad and add the following lines at the end:

;--------------------BdU REVIEWS NEUTRAL SINKING
[NEU0:Data\Cfg\Basic.cfg]
ApplyToPeriod=19390101|19400131
ChooseFrom=5
RndMidPat=1
0_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=-1
1_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=0
2_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=0
;-------------------------
[NEU1:Data\Cfg\Basic.cfg]
ApplyToPeriod=19400201|19401231
ChooseFrom=5
RndMidPat=1
0_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=0
1_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=0
;------------------------------
[NEU2:Data\Cfg\Basic.cfg]
ApplyToPeriod=19410101|19411231
ChooseFrom=5
RndMidPat=1
0_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=0
;------------------------------------
[NEU3:Data\Cfg\Basic.cfg]
ApplyToPeriod=19420101|19451231
ChooseFrom=10
RndMidPat=1
0_RENOWN|NEUTRAL=0
;--------------------end BdU REVIEWS NEUTRAL SINKING

[/QUOTE] Make the file into a JSGME-compatible mod for SH3C and activate it. Or just drop the file into the \Cfg folder of your SH3C.

Oh, and don't forget to set NEUTRAL=1 in the Data\Cfg\Basic.cfg file of your SH3 folder.

EDIT: For Heaven's sake, the "smart" software puts a :D in every time I want to put in a <colon>D! How do I make it stop? Anyway Steve, that's a : followed by a D.

EDIT 1/22/2015: LGN1 posted a similar version about 3 years ago. Full credit to him.

Sailor Steve

01-20-15, 10:19 PM

EDIT: For Heaven's sake, the "smart" software puts a :D in every time I want to put in a <colon>D! How do I make it stop? Anyway Steve, that's a : followed by a D.
I don't think you can.

:+D - got it.

Thanks.

[edit] Here's a funny part: When I copied and pasted the whole column into a new text file, it didn't recognize the symbol and dropped the colon and the 'D' altogether. I had to manually type each one back in.

BigWalleye

01-21-15, 05:15 PM

I don't think you can.

:+D - got it.

Thanks.

[edit] Here's a funny part: When I copied and pasted the whole column into a new text file, it didn't recognize the symbol and dropped the colon and the 'D' altogether. I had to manually type each one back in.

BTW, Steve, I have similar little randomized blocks for the esrly-war torpedo depth problem (You know they generally run deep, but you can't be sure how much.) and boat trim (Does your LI have her trimmed heavy or light today? Need to make a trim dive to know for sure.). Just short blocks that copy and paste into SH3C Randomized events.cfg. I can post them if anyone is interested.

iambecomelife

01-21-15, 05:35 PM

Just FYI for those playing the Merchant Fleet Mod - the neutral paint schemes can be deliberately deceptive. This was intended to represent neutral ships that sailed in convoy with British escorts or traded with the enemy. Under maritime law they were legitimate targets. It is up to you to pay attention to factors like a ship's location, reaction to your submarine, deck cargo, and presence in a convoy.

Jeff-Groves

01-21-15, 05:37 PM

Here's a funny part: When I copied and pasted the whole column into a new text file, it didn't recognize the symbol and dropped the colon and the 'D' altogether. I had to manually type each one back in.

Are you open to a faster way to do this?
:)
On small files the time saved is not much but on big files?
It can save you major headaches!
:D

:hmmm:
This could be another blithering genius post!!
:har:

Sailor Steve

01-21-15, 09:04 PM

BTW, Steve, I have similar little randomized blocks for the esrly-war torpedo depth problem (You know they generally run deep, but you can't be sure how much.) and boat trim (Does your LI have her trimmed heavy or light today? Need to make a trim dive to know for sure.). Just short blocks that copy and paste into SH3C Randomized events.cfg. I can post them if anyone is interested.
I hope you're familiar with the term "Yes, please".

Jeff-Groves

01-21-15, 09:13 PM

Do a big post for Steve so I can show him an easy trick.
:D

BigWalleye

01-21-15, 10:38 PM

LGN1

01-22-15, 02:17 PM

Genius! :rock:

Ummm, how do I do that? :88) :oops:

Old stuff.... been anwered already long ago, see here (2012 discussion):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showpost.php?p=1872087&postcount=17

:D

BigWalleye

01-22-15, 02:28 PM

Old stuff.... been anwered already long ago, see here (2012 discussion):

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//showpost.php?p=1872087&postcount=17

:D

Apologies, LGN1. I was not aware of your post. I didn't mean to poach.

LGN1

01-22-15, 02:36 PM

Hi BigWalleye,

no problem at all! I didn't want to 'claim' this idea for me. Chances are high that someone else did it even earlier!

I just read the conversation and it reminded me of the old conversation. And because it was so similar, I thought it's funny.

I'm happy for everyone who shares his ideas here! That's what a forum is for :yep:

Regards, LGN1

@Sailor Steve: I hope you don't feel offended by my post.

Sailor Steve

01-22-15, 02:42 PM

Old stuff.... been anwered already long ago, see here (2012 discussion):
And I see that I was the one who asked the question. :oops:

I think the problem was that while I was always on Subsim I wasn't actually playing at all. I probably have it written down somewhere I'll never find it again. :dead:

BigWalleye

01-22-15, 02:45 PM

Jeff-Groves

01-22-15, 02:51 PM

What's that Jimbuna always says?
I need another Beer!
:haha:
NO! Not that one!
None of us is as smart as all of us.
Or something like that.
:yep:

Plague

01-22-15, 04:11 PM

It is up to you to pay attention to factors like a ship's location, reaction to your submarine, deck cargo, and presence in a convoy.

maybe it's a stupid question, but I really don't know.
how do neutral ships react to my sub? Do they try to evade or do they go straight ahead?

Jeff-Groves

01-22-15, 05:01 PM

maybe it's a stupid question, but I really don't know.
how do neutral ships react to my sub? Do they try to evade or do they go straight ahead?
Surface near them once and you'll have your answer.
:D

BigWalleye

01-22-15, 05:58 PM

Surface near them once and you'll have your answer.
:D

Empirical data are always better than someone else's opinion. Yes, test it for yourself.