What is your stance on Port Raiding?

[depthtok33l]

As the title says, do you consider it cheating/dishonorable (:rotfl2:) or otherwise?

[Hambone307]

If you are desperate for tonnage, I think it is a viable tactic. Although, after a few (failed) attempts to raid a couple of harbors, I will leave that maneuver to the more "bold" captains. I am perfectly content sitting outside a harbor at the sea shelf where I have room to maneuver!:arrgh!:

[Crannogman]

It's called unrestricted submarine warfare for a reason. If you can get in, get 'em. Your conscience will tell you when it's time to head for deeper waters. That said, I prefer to catch a merchant on the high seas and sink him (and his cargo) in a thousand fathoms without a trace. There's plenty of ships been sunk in harbor that have been raised and put back in the fight.

As far as cheating, well, it's probably not fair. But neither is knowing where to find and sink the Yamato every day of the war. So do what you want, it's your game

[Cybermat47]

BMA.

[TorpX]

As the title says, do you consider it cheating/dishonorable (:rotfl2:) or otherwise?

Cheating is probably too strong a word, but to me it is like going from 100% difficulty level, where you need to have a high order of skill (this is the theory anyway), to 10%, where you're shooting fish in a barrel.

It would be different if port/base defenses were at all realistic.

[Armistead]

I think we all did our share of port raiding in the beginning, but without the proper mods, it's no challenge. Heck, one can sneak into Truk and sink half the IJN fleet...and leave with no response...

[Jolierouge]

Depends on the port....

Is it guarded?

Would it be a challenge to sneak in?

Are there warships docked?

And......history has Scapa Flow.

Definitely not cheating, if you can answer all three questions with yes.

greetings

Jolie

[Sailor Steve]

And......history has Scapa Flow.
Which was planned in advance by Admiral Dönitz with the aid of aerial photographs and conducted by his hand-picked "golden boy", the best he had. Were there any others like that? If not, then it is indeed cheating as far as history as concerned. But, as was said earlier, it's just a game, so we can do what we want.

[Sniper297]

"Others like that" off the top of my head, USS WAHOO, Wewak harbor. Haven't researched to find if there were others, but I found the jackpot in Kobe from a Pearl Harbor career mission ordering a photo recon of Osaka.

Cheating? Not to me, to me cheating is never operating in less than 300 feet of water. The thermal layers in the stock game are always there, always between 150-250 feet, and always so strong they act like a Klingon cloaking device. Trying to evade a depth charge attack in 100 feet of water without using external camera is much more challenging.

I agree it should be a LOT more challenging - if you're sighted by a merchant while sneaking through the narrows any sub hunter/aircraft within 10 miles will make a beeline for you, but the enemy forgets you exist within 30 minutes of the radio report and you can continue penetrating the harbor as if you were never detected. Sink a gunboat or subchaser patrolling the entrance to Tokyo Bay and it never gets replaced, let alone alerting any of the other defenses. The AI in game sucks, plain and simple, but spending several days creeping around in shallow water to destroy stationary targets isn't exactly like shooting fish in a barrel - since you're a fish in the same barrel.

[merc4ulfate]

I find it boring a hell.

The only time harbor raiding was actually fun was when I was in a u-boat going up Churchill's behind somewhere and these two DD hedgehoged my derrière right out of the water with the concussion from the explosions.

They literally lifted the boat to the surface, then they deck gunned me right back to the bottom. Yeah I was dead but it was a challenge to get in and they made it don right hard to get out.

I have been sunk by subnets and mines before in harbors. I would really enjoy seeing more mods place nets and mines at entrances to ports to make it harder for the american side to get into ports. It isn't realistic for this game to make it so easy to get in. Yes it happened in WW2 but it was never an easy or safe thing to do.

Do not forget the U.S.S. Tirante during the first war patrol of that vessel against enemy Japanese surface forces in the harbor of Quelpart Island, off the coast of Korea, on 14 April 1945. USS Tirante (http://www.ussnautilus.org/undersea/street.html)

[suitednate]

Port raiding does seem to be a little too easy. I've tried to raid Truk, Rabaul, Kavieng, and some port on an island between Okinawa and Japan.....or maybe it was a port on the west side of Okinawa....I forget.....anyways I'm playing with RFB and I figured both Truk and Rabaul especially would be much more heavily defended. Well I snuck into Truk one time in early '42 and sank a carrier (the Soryu I think) and a Takao class cruiser. Also sank a couple merchants. Most of this was during the day as well. I had to sneak around in water that was only about 60-70 ft deep. The heaviest response was a few of patrol boats with no sonar or even hydrophones I think came searching around. Wasn't hard at all to get in or out undetected.

The most realistic seeming response was more interesting in a trip to Kavieng in mid-late '42. I approached the shallows on the surface from the North at dawn and the visibility was poor, seas were calm. I think anything over 1000 yards away wasn't visible. I picked up 6 stationary radar contact in the shallows. These contacts were parked in 2 columns of 3. I then dove to close to visual range which was about 1000 yards on this day. First contact I cam upon was a Kuma class CL. Let it be then moved on to the next one another 1500 yes away. This turned out to be a Furutaka class CA. Didn't hesitate to fire 2 fish at her. When the fish got close she started to move but both hit and she sank by the stern. No activity from the other boats yet though. Went to see what the next boat was and it was another Furutaka. Fired 2 fish at her. 1 hit barely and another missed because when they got close she sped up as fast as possible. I snap shot a 3rd that hit and she sunk. By this time, all the other 4 warships woke up as well and they fled the area at high speed. There were no destroyers with them apparently. I would later find out that the total composition of the group was 4 Furutakas and 2 Kumas.

They seemed to then head west around the island and loop around back east towards Rabaul. They were running at about 12-14 knots. Before they could totally loop around the island I had end arounded them after tracking them by radar at night and set up for another submerged attack where I bagged another Furutaka and a Kuma. The other two got away and I think I might have been out of torpedos at that point so I headed home.

[Sailor Steve]

"Others like that" off the top of my head, USS WAHOO, Wewak harbor.
Where they found a destroyer and several submarines. Going into an undefended harbor with a merchant or two, or a destroyer and some submarines, is not unreasonable.

The game allows you to sail right into Tokyo bay and sink battleships at anchor. Not what I call realistic.

[THEBERBSTER]

In regards to your Port raiding.

If there is no Lemonade then I give it a miss. :D

[aanker]

I don't do 'Port Raiding' and haven't since the SH1 - SHCE days, mostly because it was against the RoE's - 'Rules of Engagement' that we used in the 'Pacific Thunder Campaign'.

It is an old habit that makes SH4 more enjoyable for me.

Happy Hunting - whatever you do : )

[TorpX]

"Others like that" off the top of my head, USS WAHOO, Wewak harbor.

Where they found a destroyer and several submarines. Going into an undefended harbor with a merchant or two, or a destroyer and some submarines, is not unreasonable.

The game allows you to sail right into Tokyo bay and sink battleships at anchor. Not what I call realistic.

This cuts to the heart of the question, doesn't it?

In this game, you find harbors that have capitol ships stacked up like Tokyo Bay on a busy day, but with defenses like sleepy Wewak on a slow night.

I can see being able to penetrate a weakly defended anchorage like Wewak, or even better, a recently captured area, where defenses would be incomplete, but to be able to get into Truk, Rabaul or the like, seems very gamey.

[Armistead]

This cuts to the heart of the question, doesn't it?

In this game, you find harbors that have capitol ships stacked up like Tokyo Bay on a busy day, but with defenses like sleepy Wewak on a slow night.

I can see being able to penetrate a weakly defended anchorage like Wewak, or even better, a recently captured area, where defenses would be incomplete, but to be able to get into Truk, Rabaul or the like, seems very gamey.







I get my files loaded up soon, I'll let you try my version of RSRD....try Truk harbor then......

One thing I didn't get is why Lurker and Duci for TMO didn't take time to set up proper harbor defenses, just a few random patrols for the bases like Truk.

It can put a lil load on a weak PC, but subs often had to deal with numerous fishing boats. I found by putting in numerous armed fishing boat really helped..because they will call you in if they spot you. Subnets can be tricky, but easy to put them in front of docks and I certainly used them around the west harbor where all the capital ships are docked. Adding a few minefields, lots of searchlights, heavy machine guns and shore guns to cover, you're basically forced to dive trying to come into Truk......and once in, lot's of surprises...

[TorpX]

I get my files loaded up soon, I'll let you try my version of RSRD....try Truk harbor then......



Ha.. Thanks, but no thanks.

I am not one to take big risks with a career. I've felt that way ever since I made the fatal mistake of trying to do a recon in SHCE in my first career. Now I think, don't be a hero!

One thing I didn't get is why Lurker and Duci for TMO didn't take time to set up proper harbor defenses, just a few random patrols for the bases like Truk.

They were probably worn out before they got to it. Sometimes I think it would be interesting to try to set up a alternate campaign, but then I realize how much work it would be .... too many details to manage.

[Armistead]

Well. , my goal was to keep people out of capital ports, but put a few very risky special missions inside a few of them. You don't have to do it.

What made the mission hard, you do a photo recon o carriers in Truk. Once you trigger the zone sub nets spawn at the north and south entry basically trapping you. They're numerous lil exits through the reefs, but you must surface and those have guns that will end you fast. Truk is filled with armed fishing boat you would have to avoid... and seems I have 3 elite Matsu De's in there and one killer group outside the reef... Also a few DE's that may appear docked, but the speed is just set to zero, so they will wake up if they sense you and come looking...and the contact hunt time is much longer than TMO... The key to escape is a message a convoy is headed to Truk. The sub nets despawn to pretend to let them in and do have a small convoy that comes in....that's your chance to escape submerged through a small deeper minefield...Now, if the weather is bad, you might can escape through the west entry....

[TorpX]

Once you trigger the zone sub nets spawn at the north and south entry basically trapping you...

Clever. I didn't know you could do that.

Definitely not for the faint of heart.

[Spraug]

Well, I guess the overall feeling is: if it were a challenge, it would be OK, but now you can walk into Truk/ Rabaul/ Inland Sea/ Tokyo Bay and sink ships like you do your shopping. And I have to say I concur. In the beginning I did it a couple of times until I noticed that even the subchasers in port don't start chasing you once the explosions start and then it really didn't feel like a simulation anymore.

[tomoose]

....if the game lets you do it. ;)

That being said I think it's a matter of personal choice in how you play the game.

If you play for 100% realism then you would consider the risk (in real life) of entering an enemy harbor. There are, as pointed out, historical examples of submarine skippers successfully raiding a harbor. The "limitation" is that the actual risk in the game may not be as great given the AI reaction in certain circumstances.
For my part, despite the AI probably allowing me to get away with it, I don't venture into harbors unless ordered. I personally add the artificiality of giving the enemy credit for being smarter than the AI displays. ;)
I consider myself a cautious skipper and "realistically" don't risk my boat or crew unless it's really worth it.

If you are not a 100% realism player then go for it. No reason not to do it. Take your chance with the AI defence whether it's lame or not.

[suitednate]

....if the game lets you do it. ;)

That being said I think it's a matter of personal choice in how you play the game.

If you play for 100% realism then you would consider the risk (in real life) of entering an enemy harbor. There are, as pointed out, historical examples of submarine skippers successfully raiding a harbor. The "limitation" is that the actual risk in the game may not be as great given the AI reaction in certain circumstances.
For my part, despite the AI probably allowing me to get away with it, I don't venture into harbors unless ordered. I personally add the artificiality of giving the enemy credit for being smarter than the AI displays. ;)
I consider myself a cautious skipper and "realistically" don't risk my boat or crew unless it's really worth it.

If you are not a 100% realism player then go for it. No reason not to do it. Take your chance with the AI defence whether it's lame or not.

Is there ever an order to actually raid a port? I haven't seen one yet. I also may not have played long enough yet to see one. I play RFB + RSRD.

[merc4ulfate]

Well. , my goal was to keep people out of capital ports, but put a few very risky special missions inside a few of them. You don't have to do it.

So you have a tweaked version of RSRD with better harbor defenses? Nets, mines and escorts? I want this.

One question ... will it still be compatible running my current mod list?


Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Improved Ship Physics 2.6_TMO_RSRDC
TMO_Visuals_for_RSRDC
Fixed_CD_sonar_RSRDC
Classe_Balao_CamoTri
Pacific Sound Mod
Nav Map Make-Over v2.1
NMMO Airbase Add-on
NMMO v2.1 Patch 1 with AB
NMMO Maps Add-on
NMMO Pre Pearl Harbor Career Start Add-on
NMMO Reverse Ocean Colors Add-on
Less Plankton 1.2

[Sniper297]

"Is there ever an order to actually raid a port?" I've had three with stock game, photograph docked ships. One at Osaka, one in Formosa, and one in Manila Bay. The Manila Bay is the stupidest one, some escort carriers in extremely shallow water at the far north end, and there is a net but you can run over the top of it on the surface with extreme noise but no damage. Ridiculous part is whoever designed that mission failed to make sure the earliest starting date was Feb 42 or later. Since career missions are assigned at random it's possible to get that mission as the first one in an Asiatic career, and since Manila is still occupied by US forces about half the time you get up there and there's nothing to photograph since the targets were already sunk by friendly forces.

"subchasers in port don't start chasing you once the explosions start" When you fool around with the mission editor that becomes obvious - there's a checkbox for "Docked Ship", and if that's on it won't move ever. You can cruise past the front of an anchored destroyer and it will ping you, shoot at the periscope if you're close enough for them to see it, and drop depth charges (usually blowing themselves up) if you cruise past the stern close enough - but they won't get underway no matter what as long as the "Docked Ship" box is checked on in the mission editor. I'm not sure why that's even there, there's no manual for the mission editor, but it's one possible way to fix that particular problem.

[Webster]

for me I see no reason not to if you are in the area, I wouldn't make a point of targeting them though but if you are near a port, then its a target of opportunity like anything else so its perfectly realistic to do it.

the problem is that the game makes it unrealistically easy to do it so it just feels wrong.

if im down to a few fish i'll pop into a nearby port and send a few down before heading in to refit, I see no reason to return to port with fish still onboard.

[Riccardo1975]

Halifax and St Helena are two of my favourites. The only thing I cant stand is hitting large troop ships etc. alongside a harbour wall with keel shots, and they dont even think about sinking. Its a lot easier with acoustic torpedoes as well....

[Armistead]

"Is there ever an order to actually raid a port?" I've had three with stock game, photograph docked ships. One at Osaka, one in Formosa, and one in Manila Bay. The Manila Bay is the stupidest one, some escort carriers in extremely shallow water at the far north end, and there is a net but you can run over the top of it on the surface with extreme noise but no damage. Ridiculous part is whoever designed that mission failed to make sure the earliest starting date was Feb 42 or later. Since career missions are assigned at random it's possible to get that mission as the first one in an Asiatic career, and since Manila is still occupied by US forces about half the time you get up there and there's nothing to photograph since the targets were already sunk by friendly forces.

"subchasers in port don't start chasing you once the explosions start" When you fool around with the mission editor that becomes obvious - there's a checkbox for "Docked Ship", and if that's on it won't move ever. You can cruise past the front of an anchored destroyer and it will ping you, shoot at the periscope if you're close enough for them to see it, and drop depth charges (usually blowing themselves up) if you cruise past the stern close enough - but they won't get underway no matter what as long as the "Docked Ship" box is checked on in the mission editor. I'm not sure why that's even there, there's no manual for the mission editor, but it's one possible way to fix that particular problem.

Undock them, set speed to 0, proper waypoints and parameters....