Terrorist attack in Paris on French magazine

[Onkel Neal]

I'm starting a new thread on this horrific event, since the original one got off to a bad start. Try to keep the ideology to a minimum. Discuss the news, add your opinion, but try not to ruin this into the ground

[Betonov]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883

One thing I love about satirical media, they won't let themselves be bullied like this, no matter how tragical.

[Tchocky]

http://www.gizmodo.fr/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/je-suis-charlie.jpg


Doing the rounds on Twitter. Heartening to see.

I wonder how the police response will stack up against the Boston Marathon manhunt, seeing as the gunmen are still at large.

[Jimbuna]

A terrible senseless act of barbarism....I was especially moved when I saw the police officer who had been wounded being executed with a single shot to the head whilst holding his hands up in surrender :nope:

Where next?

[Oberon]

Could be anywhere Jim, we are at war after all. The enemy will grow stronger or weaker depending partially on our actions, but make no mistake we must not give in to extremism, nor answer it with extremism of our own.
I hope the French police catch these terrorists alive and they are denied the chance to martyr themselves.

[Betonov]

They should all understand (wishfull thinking) that the less they behave like barbarians, the less their prophet would be mocked.

[Armistead]

Gonna see more and more of this. The world is at war with radical Islam and we can't figure how to deal with so called moderate Islam without offense to war with the radicals. It's gonna continue to worsen and eventually a major showdown....

[Oberon]

That is exactly the thing, it is how we treat moderate Islam, either we drive them into the arms of the extremists and make more work for ourselves, or we work at driving a wedge between them and the extremists and cut off the extremists manpower base. It's not foolproof, you are going to get incidents like this, but if you take the national population of Muslims of a country and the number of extremists in that country and compare the two it is hardly an overwhelming majority, unlike some people would have you believe, for their own political and ideological causes.

[Armistead]

That is exactly the thing, it is how we treat moderate Islam, either we drive them into the arms of the extremists and make more work for ourselves, or we work at driving a wedge between them and the extremists and cut off the extremists manpower base. It's not foolproof, you are going to get incidents like this, but if you take the national population of Muslims of a country and the number of extremists in that country and compare the two it is hardly an overwhelming majority, unlike some people would have you believe, for their own political and ideological causes.

Well, just look at the numbers of so called moderates that want to ban free speech against Muhammad and are OK for those that offend their religion to be killed.

The only ones that can drive a true wedge are moderate Muslims, which mean they have to go to war in mass against radical, in principle and law. The fact is Islam run states won't do this.

In nations like France large radical populations are growing, you have possible 1000's joining ISIS and other radical groups and they seem to have free roam back and forth....It's eventually going to turn into a civil war or clash of civilizations. Radicals only want to grow and terror so much as they keep gaining power, but eventually we'll all be involved in another major ME war..

The only thing that can reform Islam is Islam....

[Skybird]

Oh yeah, there it shows up again: this dream of a "moderate Islam". Not even six hours from first calling the news to mentioning moderate Islam - not bad, but it could be mentioned even faster!

Its not in the scripture it bases on, but still - even if the dream lived just one week, one day - it nevertheless has LIVED ! :yeah:

Islam is as totalitarian by its ideological fundament as communism or fascism are. Supremacist to the core and bone, unforgiving towards anybody refusing it, nobody's friend except to itself, all world's enemy. A world it says it has the divine obligation to claim all, and where peace only can be had on your knees, under the sword of Muhammad, in voluntary or enforced submission, the green flag flying in the wind above you. You either love green - or you are to be dead.

This and nothing else is the teaching of Islam, and always has been. The Arabic root of the word Islam means submission.

[Tchocky]

Still no word on the gunmen. Getting some heartbreaking texts from a friend in Paris.

[Schroeder]

Still no word on the gunmen. Getting some heartbreaking texts from a friend in Paris.
If these guys get away I'm sure they'll strike again eventually.

[Silent Steel]

People like this have no reason for existence and will not prevail.

They should think of this;

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

by Evelyn Beatrice Hall

If they can think at all

[Tchocky]

If these guys get away I'm sure they'll strike again eventually.

That's the weirdest thing about this.

No martyrdom. No hostages. No public statements by the attackers. Makes you expect more.

Ugh.

[ikalugin]

Well how about we derail this into the Kosovo direction, ahh, I forgot, Serbians are blamed by the West for everything that ever happened there.

[Mr Quatro]

Well planed attack out of what, jealousy?

Did you see one of the shooters coming back to the car and bending down to pick up something on the ground?

Looked like a clip for his gun empty or not I do not know.

They had this on some kind of vengeance list a long time ago.

Odd that Egypt has declared war on religion the day before the attack. Not on Catholics or Christians, but on radical extremist.

Keep the jokes down for sure :yep:

[Penguin]

Having worked for a satire show for years, this hits damned close.
Satire is one of my personal holy pillars.

The german Titanic magazine reacted properly and put an elder cover on their website (http://www.titanic-magazin.de/) (don't click if drawn penises offend you).
Translation: comparative religion

Their editor in chief and MEP, Martin Sonneborn gave an appropriate statement on facebook (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=817340461661080&id=178442508884215).

"Das ist nicht komisch. Mit Anzeigen, Abokündigungen oder Kalaschnikow-Geballer auf Satire zu reagieren, gilt in der Szene als unfein. Unser Mitleid gilt den Franz. Kollegen. Bei Titanic könnte so etwas nicht passieren, wir haben nur 6 Redakteure."

"That's not funny. Reacting to satire with police reports, quitting subscribtions or shooting Kalashnikovs is seen as ungentlemanly in the scene. Our compassion is with the French colleagues. This could not happen at our magazine, as we have only 6 editors."

[Skybird]

The german Titanic magazine reacted properly and put an elder cover on their website (http://www.titanic-magazin.de/)
(...)
"That's not funny. Reacting to satire with police reports, quitting subscribtions or shooting Kalashnikovs is seen as ungentlemanly in the scene. Our compassion is with the French colleagues. This could not happen at our magazine, as we have only 6 editors."


:haha: That's the spirit! :yeah:

I assume they are no vegetarians... (for the sensible of hearts: that is called an insider joke :D )

[Oberon]

Well, just look at the numbers of so called moderates that want to ban free speech against Muhammad and are OK for those that offend their religion to be killed.

Against a global population of 1.8bn how many Muslims have called for those who offend Islam to be killed? As with any religion, ideology or political group, the ones who speak the loudest get all the attention.

The only ones that can drive a true wedge are moderate Muslims, which mean they have to go to war in mass against radical, in principle and law. The fact is Islam run states won't do this.

Sadly you are correct, I think many Islam run states are scared of the changing of the status quo. There are moderates who want to change things, but they are...oddly enough, mostly in the west, where they can speak out about changing things without worrying about being arrested like the poor sods who put a youtube video of them dancing on the internet.
How much of this is politics and how much is religion is debatable, but the two do play a big part in it.

In nations like France large radical populations are growing,

Not just France, across Europe...and not just in Islam too, the rise of parties like the NF, the UKIP coalition with far-right Polish political groups and the ease in which Europeans heap all the ills of the world upon either illegal or legal immigrants and Muslims is rather disturbing and yet a strange sense of deja vu...

you have possible 1000's joining ISIS and other radical groups and they seem to have free roam back and forth....

That's the trouble with Europe, as you chaps in the States have found with Mexico...it's hard to maintain and defend a land border against people who are determined to leak through them.

It's eventually going to turn into a civil war or clash of civilizations. Radicals only want to grow and terror so much as they keep gaining power,

I think that clash has been happening since 2001 really, they bomb us, we get terrified of Muslims, which alienates more Muslims who go to the extremists who recruit these Muslims to bomb us, which makes us get terrified of Muslims...and so on and so forth.
People from both sides of the political spectrum then jump in to add their fuel to the fire, and stoke the flames even higher which just pushes more people into extremism, and so on and so forth.

but eventually we'll all be involved in another major ME war..

It is quite likely, I can't see this cycle breaking any time soon.

The only thing that can reform Islam is Islam....
This is true, and there are those who are trying, and in a way the actions of the extremists and our reactions will encourage them to try harder, but you can't turn a supertanker on a dime. I mean, look how long it took to reform Christianity. Our role, really, should be rather than to make the jobs of those trying to reform Islam harder by doing exactly what the extremists want (classify all Muslims as a threat), we should help the reformers by combatting the extremists without stooping to their level.

[Betonov]

The satirical media responded well. More satire means less fear.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6wb6lzIYAAWia1.png

I fear what the mainstreams will do. They'll overanalyse, overblow, overcomment and sell another few truckloads of fear to a population (not just France) that could do without.
Let's not mention the politicians.

[Penguin]

https://twitter.com/MANJULtoons/status/552880028103352320/photo/1

https://twitter.com/MicheleLaroque/status/552861159746179072/photo/1

[Skybird]

Against a global population of 1.8bn how many Muslims have called for those who offend Islam to be killed? As with any religion, ideology or political group, the ones who speak the loudest get all the attention.

Most Germans did not kill a Jew or abused or dealt with a Jew themselves during the Nazi tyranny, seen that way they were "innocent" and peaceful. To say that the rise of the regime and Nazism had nothing to do with the Germans, nevertheless would be wrong. The Third Reich was not just anybody or nobody, it was the Germans.

[Tchocky]

This is beautiful

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2pKCbjKbm0tROQCdY9vvNWaC_LM=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/2912884/461129950.0.jpg

[Oberon]

The satirical media responded well. More satire means less fear.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6wb6lzIYAAWia1.png

I fear what the mainstreams will do. They'll overanalyse, overblow, overcomment and sell another few truckloads of fear to a population (not just France) that could do without.
Let's not mention the politicians.

That cartoon is spot on, as indeed many cartoonists and comics are.

Most Germans did not kill a Jew or abused or dealt with a Jew themselves during the Nazi tyranny, seen that way they were "innocent" and peaceful. To say that the rise of the regime and Nazism had nothing to do with the Germans, nevertheless would be wrong. The Third Reich was not just anybody or nobody, it was the Germans.

Does this mean that it is acceptable to call all Germans Nazis and that there was no resistance against the Third Reich?

Let me answer that, no it is not acceptable to call all Germans Nazis because not all of them were, many of them just wanted to survive without being noticed by the state, and some of them thought that some of the things that the Nazis said about the Jews and Communists was not necessarily incorrect. Did they want the Jews exterminated? Most likely not, but they were happy to see Hitler take the power back from the fat cat Jews and tackle the threat of international communism.
So...does that mean that all Muslims are radicals? According to more than a couple on here, yes...and so therefore, one must conclude that all Germans were Nazis.

There was also resistance against the Third Reich, from within Germany itself, the much publicised attempts on Hitlers lives, as well as the attempts of the White Rose movement, as doomed as they were. There is also resistance against Radical Islam from within Islam, as well as attempts at reformation, attempts that frighten and scare the radicals and the old Imams who hate change in any manner. Therefore these brave men and women who lead these movements often find themselves imprisoned, tortured and killed, and yet others continue in their place. So rather than push Muslims towards extremism by treating them all as extremists, we should encourage them away from extremists and towards reformists, of course our good friends in Riyadh probably wouldn't approve of us doing that... :/\\!!

[vanjast]

Before you go off marching to war.. a different thought.

Could this be the work of non-muslims.. who want to escalate the religeous war which is currently simmering ? If you think of this.. there have been a few attempts at this already but it has not led to to any conclusion. !!

Has anybody claimed their 'fame' for this dirty work, yet

[Sailor Steve]

Oh yeah, there it shows up again: this dream of a "moderate Islam". Not even six hours from first calling the news to mentioning moderate Islam - not bad, but it could be mentioned even faster!

Try to keep the ideology to a minimum. Discuss the news, add your opinion, but try not to ruin this into the ground
The original version of this was locked for a reason. Please try to keep that from happening a second time.

[Oberon]

Before you go off marching to war.. a different thought.

Could this be the work of non-muslims.. who want to escalate the religeous war which is currently simmering ? If you think of this.. there have been a few attempts at this already but it has not led to to any conclusion. !!

Has anybody claimed their 'fame' for this dirty work, yet

I imagine many Muslims in France are probably praying to Allah for this to be the case, but I don't think it'll pan out that way. I think, like the Australian siege, it's a small group of ideologists who have become radicalised. Although their equipment is something that the French investigation team is going to be looking at deeply, how they managed to get such explosive weaponry, that is a big question.
Unfortunately this sort of attack is something to be expected in this new type of warfare, we take the drones and the planes to them, and the people in their streets, they radicalise people in our backyard who equip themselves and take the fight to us in the streets.
Perhaps one day something will happen and things will simmer down again for a few centuries, but until then we'll just have to wearily accept the occasional attack that leaks through.

[Schroeder]

Against a global population of 1.8bn how many Muslims have called for those who offend Islam to be killed? As with any religion, ideology or political group, the ones who speak the loudest get all the attention.

My problem with that is that it happens every day. Al Kaida, Boko Haram, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, Hamas, IS, ...the list seems endless. Almost every day we hear about another extremist atrocity commited in the name of Allah and then the the standard appeasement phrase that that has nothing to do with Islam. I don't buy it anymore it happens too often for that and it's always the same religion that's supposed to be the scape goat.
Maybe if we see a demonstration of 15.000 Muslims in Paris against those extremists I get some hope again.

[Skybird]

My problem with that is that it happens every day. Al Kaida, Boko Haram, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, Hamas, IS, ...the list seems endless. Almost every day we hear about another extremist atrocity commited in the name of Allah and then the the standard appeasement phrase that that has nothing to do with Islam. I don't buy it anymore it happens too often for that and it's always the same religion that's supposed to be the scape goat.
Maybe if we see a demonstration of 15.000 Muslims in Paris against those extremists I get some hope again.

Add to this the simple and undeniable statistical fact that for the x-th year in a row, Christians are the most prosecuted religious group worldwide. China and the Muslim world lead the list of prosecutors.

[Penguin]

Could this be the work of non-muslims.. who want to escalate the religeous war which is currently simmering ?

Did you think the same about the attacks on Theo van Goch, Lars Vilks or Kurt Westergaard?

I think extremist muslims are the ones who'd gain the most from this attack. First by making the statement "Don't screw with us" plus the eventual repercussions are a top recruitment tool for the nutters. If "The West" had any interest in a war against muslims, they might have made some efforts before the withdrawls in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Oberon]

My problem with that is that it happens every day. Al Kaida, Boko Haram, Al Nusra, Al Shabab, Hamas, IS, ...the list seems endless. Almost every day we hear about another extremist atrocity commited in the name of Allah and then the the standard appeasement phrase that that has nothing to do with Islam. I don't buy it anymore it happens too often for that and it's always the same religion that's supposed to be the scape goat.
Maybe if we see a demonstration of 15.000 Muslims in Paris against those extremists I get some hope again.

How about 12,000?
http://www.dawn.com/news/661434/uk-muslims-hold-rally-against-extremism

Or the Imams of 2000 Mosques?
http://www.thelocal.de/20140919/german-muslims-rally-against-extremism


Let me put it to you this way, if two Muslims had firebombed a church in the US (with no casualties), I'd imagine that a thread would have been made about it already.
Yet earlier today, two white Neo-Nazis firebombed the Colorado Springs outpost of NAACP, and there is nary a whisper. :hmmm:

Still, if you guys want to believe that all Muslims are extremists, exactly as the extremists want you to, then I guess I can't change your minds, just as I wouldn't be able to change the minds of the men who committed this act of terrorism today. :dead:

[Schroeder]

Still, if you guys want to believe that all Muslims are extremists, exactly as the extremists want you to, then I guess I can't change your minds, just as I wouldn't be able to change the minds of the men who committed this act of terrorism today. :dead:
I never said that I just say that the problem is rooted in the religion itself and that we should stop sugarcoating that. We should take more steps against radical Islam and make sure that radicals get deported to where they came from (if foreign). If there not foreign then I really don't know what to do with them but we can't just keep our eyes closed denying that there are any problems, they won't go away that way. Well, I don't know if they go away if we do anything either but just sitting around and waiting for the next strike isn't an option anymore in my opinion.

Or in short:
I don't have answers but I think it's time we accept that there is a question.

[Bilge_Rat]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6wcXWdIgAA_Lbr.jpg:large

[Oberon]

Or in short:
I don't have answers but I think it's time we accept that there is a question.

Unfortunately, we seem to be...or at least, on GT, unable to ask what that question is without loading it with a tone which contains what we think to be the answer.
Yes, there is a problem, the problem is radical Islam.
Now either you kill 1.8b people, or you work to keep the balance between the number of extremists and the number of non-extremists in the way you want it. That's about the long and the short of it really. It doesn't mean we need to bend to their every whim, but it also doesn't mean that we need to treat them all as guilty until proven innocent.

[mapuc]

I keep asking myself this question

So much surveillance and still we ain't safe.

Do we need more surveillance ? or

Markus

[ikalugin]

I keep asking myself this question

So much surveillance and still we ain't safe.

Do we need more surveillance ? or

Markus
No security system is perfect, so one should not dismantle the entire system just because there were a number of instances where it did not work.

A review however would be warranted.

[eddie]

I don't know when this magazine published the cartoon that offended these people, but it might be interesting to find out who ordered a fatwa at the time of this offensive publication, (offensive to the Muslims that is).

This seems like a very professional hit to me, well organized for escape with switching cars and all. Doesn't seem like the work of a few locals with a grudge to settle.

[August]

I keep asking myself this question

So much surveillance and still we ain't safe.

Do we need more surveillance ? or

Markus

Surveillance isn't really intended to stop crimes from happening but rather aid in identifying the perpetrators afterwards.

[ikalugin]

Surveillance isn't really intended to stop crimes from happening but rather aid in identifying the perpetrators afterwards.
It does help crime prevention though in the sense that you could crack down on a terrorist cell before they actually blow stuff up.

[eddie]

They have identified the gunman! Good for the police!! I wish them all the best in hunting these cowards down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/gunmen-storm-paris-satirical-newspaper-killing-at-least-11/2015/01/07/f358b17a-9660-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html

[Oberon]

Safety vs Personal Freedoms is...yeah, a hard one, no two ways about it. The road to hell being paved with good intentions and that. Ben Franklin came out with quite a few good quotes, one of them being:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Still, what they achieved here, aside from further staining the name of Islam (which, whilst they'll never admit it, is truly their aim in order to make non-Muslims discriminate more against Muslims and push them into extremism) is just to make people more determined to keep that freedom of press and speach alive.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6w_bICIQAAzHH7.jpg

[Mr Quatro]

This seems like a very professional hit to me, well organized for escape with switching cars and all. Doesn't seem like the work of a few locals with a grudge to settle.

It's not who did it, but what the Muslim world will think of how these brazen hit men did them a favor.

They say that Paris itself has whole communities of Muslim that even the French police stay out of. One whole city is 40% Muslim.

They have not blended into the communities well in France, like they have in the USA.

This could cause a division in the liberal policies of France as a nation even to the point of civil strife.

Whoever it is (****) is trying to draw all the Muslim world into their way of thinking.

The real problem is who's next on the hit list?
What if they were backed into a corner?
Will they try something big to go out with a bang
or will they take the easy way out with a peace treaty?

[August]

It does help crime prevention though in the sense that you could crack down on a terrorist cell before they actually blow stuff up.

How? At the airport that I work at there are several thousand cameras alone. They would need a literal army to monitor all of them 24/7. Now there's a lot that can be done with facial recognition systems and other filtering technology to narrow down what has to be looked at by a human but as far as I can tell it's not quite there yet.

[Skybird]

Anyone interested in Michel Houllebecq's new novel, "Soumission" (Submission)? :88)

It seems to tell the story of the socialists and Muslims in France unifying their attempts to stop the rolling Front National by making a Muslim fundamentalist president of France in 2022, who immediately starts to turn it into an Islamic god-state. Sexual slavery and the oppression of women also play some role.

The perfect book for the day, it seems. It got released in France yesterday- on the same day the terrorists struck.

Up to 90% of Muslim migrants in Germany have voted left in the past couple of elections of the past 20 years.

One word of warning to all socialists sympathising with this idea, though. When Khomenei after his return to Iran with support of the Iranian Communist Party had secured his power, he opened the hunt for the communists and most of them ended up hanging at lightpoles and telephone masts. Could happen to you if you unite with somebody for whom phrases like coexistence and mutual tolerance are foreign vocabularies.

[ikalugin]

How? At the airport that I work at there are several thousand cameras alone. They would need a literal army to monitor all of them 24/7. Now there's a lot that can be done with facial recognition systems and other filtering technology to narrow down what has to be looked at by a human but as far as I can tell it's not quite there yet.
As far as I know the technical side is there already, but it is not feasable money wise so far (judging from a Russian project of providing 24/7 constant total automatic surveillance in Moscow)

[August]

As far as I know the technical side is there already, but it is not feasable money wise so far (judging from a Russian project of providing 24/7 constant total automatic surveillance in Moscow)

Not knowing the Russian project I cannot say but in general the bigger or more intricate the area the more difficult it is to keep under constant active surveillance.

[Onkel Neal]

As far as I know the technical side is there already, but it is not feasable money wise so far (judging from a Russian project of providing 24/7 constant total automatic surveillance in Moscow)

One aspect of surveillance that does produce results is Prism. As Oberon pointed out, it does come at a price, but I imagine they are able to intercept a lot of important data before an attack occurs.

[Skybird]

Comment from the Times:


Decency towards Muslims – laced with a certain fear – has made Britain reluctant to satirise their religion openly

Yesterday in Paris we in the west crossed a boundary that cannot be recrossed. For the first time since the defeat of fascism a group of citizens were massacred because of what they had drawn, said and published…

In the week when thousands of Germans in Dresden and elsewhere marched again in vague opposition to the Muslim presence among them, the Charlie Hebdo massacre seems like a gigantic placard held above them reading: “See? Told you!” This, a buoyant Marine Le Pen will remind French people, is what you get. And even some liberals who loathe the National Front will agree, in sadness.

The problem is, you may think, that even though the vast majority of Muslims would no more kill a cartoonist than a Methodist would, they still don’t quite get our commitment to freedom of speech. When they complain about insults and say they’re angry about this or that being published and want it banned, then they create the permissive fluid in which the violent zealot swims.

So we need to be clear, for everyone’s sake, and at the moment we are anything but. This is the deal for living together. The same tolerance that allows Muslims or Methodists freedom to practise and espouse their religion is the same tolerance that allows their religion or any aspect of it to be depicted, criticised or even ridiculed. Take away one part of the deal and the other part falls too. You live here, that’s what you agree to. You don'T like it, go somewhere else.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/article4316868.ece

Its not the first time since WWII, however, that people in the West get murdered by Islamic terrorists for what they had written, said or turned into a film. The author forgot to think about Dutch Theo van Gogh, or the Danish cartoon writer who almost fell victim to a Muslim axe-swinger, and was so intimidated that he now has publicly apologised for his unforgivable deed. Also, the violent antisemitism to be seen growing in countries like France, Netherlands, and Sweden, is very strongly and for the main projected from Arab migrants and Muslims, not Neonazis. That Jews get hunted and beaten up on Western streets, has become a sad routine since years already.

And some 15 years ago I helped in a local grassroot movement to prevent the enlargment of a local mosque over here that was tried to be enforced by means of betrayal and fraud. We tried to mobilise the local residents by going from door to door, and filded charges for fraud at court, the resulting court battle was won by us. The chairman of our group was beaten up on open street, at daytime, his wife got harassed and beaten, later they got death threats by mail. They have left the city long time ago. Me, I received a written death sentence in my papermail, too.

But any rumours that I complied with it, are strongly exaggerated.

The comment in the Times is good. Its just not fully up to date.

[Cybermat47]

I think when this sort of debate comes up about Islam, people forget something vital: a lot of Muslims don't actually follow Islam to the letter.

After all, Islam is a violent religion, but a lot of Muslims aren't violent people. If terrorists represented the majority of Muslims, wouldn't every Muslim be trying to kill as many non-Muslims as possible?

This is true of a lot of religions. Christianity says that Homosexuality is an abomination, yet a lot of Christians support Gay equality. And I'd say that the people who believe in Islam and are Gay also support Gay equality.

[em2nought]

Yes, there is a problem, the problem is radical Islam.
Now either you kill 1.8b people

Works for me! Plus it should be earth friendly, much less natural resources needed for a reduced population. I don't think you'd have to kill "all" of them to get them to start playing the game by the rules though. Japan only took two atom bombs, and now we are best of friends(sorta). Time to go old school. :D

[Otto Harkaman]

I'm sure as these things tend to go that its going to get much worse before it gets any better.

[Cybermat47]

Works for me! Plus it should be earth friendly, much less natural resources needed for a reduced population. I don't think you'd have to kill "all" of them to get them to start playing the game by the rules though. Japan only took two atom bombs, and now we are best of friends(sorta). Time to go old school. :D

http://f.ptcdn.info/785/006/000/1372676563-36050165-o.jpg

(I assume this is permitted because 'dafuq' isn't censored by the autocensor software.)

[MH]

Unfortunately, we seem to be...or at least, on GT, unable to ask what that question is without loading it with a tone which contains what we think to be the answer.
Yes, there is a problem, the problem is radical Islam.
Now either you kill 1.8b people, or you work to keep the balance between the number of extremists and the number of non-extremists in the way you want it. That's about the long and the short of it really. It doesn't mean we need to bend to their every whim, but it also doesn't mean that we need to treat them all as guilty until proven innocent.

The issue is not final solution , please don't jump to extreme here.
It is about the apologetic narrative people are fed up with as it seem.
Look at the Stockholm Syndrome thread and so on...maybe this is exactly the reason why many vote UKIP you fear so much.

When it comes to extremism you should realize that for religious or brought up in ME tradition un -Muslims:O: often going to extremism is mentally easer than embracing western liberal values.
It is closer to home...so don't blame yourself.
Europe has added another problem to the list and is learning to to deal with it....

[Armistead]

Unfortunately, we seem to be...or at least, on GT, unable to ask what that question is without loading it with a tone which contains what we think to be the answer.
Yes, there is a problem, the problem is radical Islam.
Now either you kill 1.8b people, or you work to keep the balance between the number of extremists and the number of non-extremists in the way you want it. That's about the long and the short of it really. It doesn't mean we need to bend to their every whim, but it also doesn't mean that we need to treat them all as guilty until proven innocent.

That's the problem, radical and so called moderates still have much in common and it's laughable that we refer to them as moderates, because the majority of moderates still support a religion that is biased towards gays, women, free speech, apostasy, etc....The larger Islam gets the more radical groups we get. We're too scared to face Islam and walk on our tiptoes out of fear. We treat no other religion like this....because we fear moderates will go radical. The fact we fear so much moderates will go radical only proves how moderate they are....not so much.

Yes, it will take Islam to reform Islam itself, but that isn't happening. Europe has all but bowed to Allah to appease moderate and radical alike and got nothing but mass numbers of radicals they will have to deal with.

Because Islam won't deal with it's issues within itself, the world continues to piecemeal wars every decade, not solving much, because we give up. We'll have many more big acts or terror coming and more wars because no one wants to deal with Islam....

[Betonov]

A terrible senseless act of barbarism....I was especially moved when I saw the police officer who had been wounded being executed with a single shot to the head whilst holding his hands up in surrender :nope:



Slovene media just wrote, that the murdered policeman was a muslim

[Oberon]

Works for me! Plus it should be earth friendly, much less natural resources needed for a reduced population. I don't think you'd have to kill "all" of them to get them to start playing the game by the rules though. Japan only took two atom bombs, and now we are best of friends(sorta). Time to go old school. :D

I believe that Tribesman was brigged a few weeks back for suggesting that there were members of this board who would support the wholesale massacre of women and children.
Well, there's one of them.

I guess that since I do not believe in answering extremism with extremism or violence with violence that I am weak, socialist, communist, European, reasonophobic, Errr...have I missed any of the usual terms treated as derogatory around here? Gun-hating perhaps?
That's fine, I've spent just as long as Skybird defending my beliefs and trying, trying to teach tolerance, understanding and love to a crowd which doesn't believe in any of that. That's fine, if people want to live in fear and hated, and become as bitter and angry as the people they claim to be fighting, then I guess that is their choice. With any luck I'll be long dead before the consequences of such limited thought come into play.

[Oberon]

Slovene media just wrote, that the murdered policeman was a muslim

In before suggestions of collusion.

[Cybermat47]

I wish these threads would stop getting so screwed up.

Part of me wants the GT forum to be deleted, so we can focus on talking about submarines. That's why we're here, right?

[MH]

I wish these threads would stop getting so screwed up.

Part of me wants the GT forum to be deleted, so we can focus on talking about submarines. That's why we're here, right?

All is well....
Just open thread about submarines No?

[Cybermat47]

All is well....
Just open thread about submarines No?

...

Stop using logic :)

[Oberon]

I wish these threads would stop getting so screwed up.

Part of me wants the GT forum to be deleted, so we can focus on talking about submarines. That's why we're here, right?

Once, maybe, back when they were still making Silent Hunters, GT has always been screwed up though, it's gotten a bit more twisted now because everyone is entrenched in their respective positions and won't budge, so it just comes down to sniping, the odd personal attack and the occasional mass charge against the machine guns.

There is little new ideas to discuss, events that trigger discussions usually boil down to Muslims, the Economy, Obama, and guns, and the same old people come out with the same old links, the same old jokes, and the same old tirades of paragraphs, myself included. One could almost code a bot to conduct the whole thread before it's even posted. Occasionally a thread might not go down the traditional route, but these are exceptions to the rule rather than a trend.

[Cybermat47]

I just saw a great post from PewDiePie (the most subscribed person on YouTube).

My thoughts go out to the people of France tonight.
Hopefully one day we'll all realize that we live on the same planet.

[Cybermat47]

Once, maybe, back when they were still making Silent Hunters,

So... we blame Ubisoft?

I doubt anyone will object :D

[MH]

I guess that since I do not believe in answering extremism with extremism or violence with violence that I am weak, socialist, communist, European, reasonophobic, Errr...have I missed any of the usual terms treated as derogatory around here? Gun-hating perhaps?


Ok... so what is your idea?
How do you think EU should deal with the issue?

[Oberon]

So... we blame Ubisoft?

I doubt anyone will object :D

I think we can work with that.

Ok... so what is your idea?
How do you think EU should deal with the issue?

Same way we've always dealt with terrorism, punish those who undertake it, be wary of those who profit from it, and help those who suffer from it.

[MH]

Same way we've always dealt with terrorism, punish those who undertake it, be wary of those who profit from it, and help those who suffer from it.

Good ...I suppose that how it will be with some minor adjustments.

Here are some thoughts from Ha'aretz cartoonist....


Paris attack shows that the bad guys have won

Haaretz's cartoonist Amos Biderman is afraid after the attack on French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo that killed 12.


Let’s not try to whitewash things. The bad guys have won — those guys from the Islamic Jihad, Al-Qaida, the Islamic State, whatever you want to call them. They’ve beaten us big time in the battle for freedom of expression.
All of Europe is shaking and so is America. Now there is no cartoonist or publisher who would dare start up with them. They’re all trembling in fear. Personally, I’ve felt threatened ever since the storm over the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed in 2005. I don’t go near the subject. The ramifications are clear.
The French government had in the past asked the people at Charlie Hebdo to stop publishing illustrations that ignored the sensitivities of radical Islam. No similar requests were made regarding cartoons lampooning the rabbinate or the Vatican, and there certainly were such cartoons.
Islamic extremists in Europe trumped freedom of expression back when they slaughtered Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam over his documentary film about female genital mutilation among Muslim women in Holland. Against Salman Rushdie they issued a fatwa sentencing him to death because of his book “The Satanic Verses” and he was forced to hire personal bodyguards and go into hiding for many years.
Not long ago, I saw television reporter Zvi Yehezkeli walking around London (http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.634366) in the company of a Muslim preacher, who was explaining, on camera, how lovely life would be in Britain under sharia law. Marriage to 12-year-old girls, cutting off hands, and decapitations – great fun. La dolce vita. Ah, but he forgot the most important thing – they will kill all the infidels. That’s exactly what they did to my French colleagues, whose only sin was to draw pictures. That’s what I call multiculturalism.
Everyone’s afraid, but there will always be those kamikazes, like the journalists at Charlie Hebdo. They are few and far between, and truly courageous. I’d been following their editions, and I knew it would end badly. It couldn’t have been otherwise. The French government also knew, and did nothing to stop it.
Now the leaders of France, Britain and Germany will speak, babble, and prattle. The bitter truth is that there isn’t much more they can do. The bad guys have already won.
Perhaps we should start studying sharia law.
Amos Biderman is a cartoonist at Haaretz.

[Rhodes]

The following picture is from a portuguese cartoonist, about the attacks!
http://4.fotos.web.sapo.io/i/of91104d7/17903629_2PMGA.jpeg
He says that humour is a profoundly effective weapon against all that promote terror and tragedy and it will prevail against all evil that attacks liberty.

It is a core of the text he wrote with the cartoon.

[Betonov]

Same way we've always dealt with terrorism, punish those who undertake it, be wary of those who profit from it, and help those who suffer from it.

And deport those that are filled with hate speech.
I don't mind Ahmed coming in with his wife and 3 children and then work as a janitor or engineer, sending his kids trough college to become the next generation of engineers and doctors.

But c'mon, we really need to send a lot of the bad eggs back home.

[Cybermat47]

But c'mon, we really need to send a lot of the bad eggs back home.

Or better yet, lock them up so they can't stir up trouble back home.

[Betonov]

Or better yet, lock them up so they can't stir up trouble back home.

I hear China has a lot of rare earth deposits.
We supply the workforce and keep 3/4 of the ore :hmmm:

[Schroeder]

I guess that since I do not believe in answering extremism with extremism or violence with violence that I am weak, socialist, communist, European, reasonophobic, Errr...have I missed any of the usual terms treated as derogatory around here? Gun-hating perhaps?
That's fine, I've spent just as long as Skybird defending my beliefs and trying, trying to teach tolerance, understanding and love to a crowd which doesn't believe in any of that. That's fine, if people want to live in fear and hated, and become as bitter and angry as the people they claim to be fighting, then I guess that is their choice. With any luck I'll be long dead before the consequences of such limited thought come into play.
Wasn't there a guy in the UK who once thought the same way? I guess his name was Chamberlain and we know how the story ended. Sometimes the peaceful way doesn't work as it requires your opponent to accept logic and reasoning. Both are lacking in hate filled ideologies and religions. Just waiting and appeasing doesn't always work.

I wish these threads would stop getting so screwed up.

Part of me wants the GT forum to be deleted, so we can focus on talking about submarines. That's why we're here, right?
That's why we have submarine simulation forums and a separated GT. You don't like GT you stay out of it and discuss submarines in the submarine forums. No GT topics there.:yep:

And deport those that are filled with hate speech.
I don't mind Ahmed coming in with his wife and 3 children and then work as a janitor or engineer, sending his kids trough college to become the next generation of engineers and doctors.

But c'mon, we really need to send a lot of the bad eggs back home.
I fully agree with your post.

[Cybermat47]

That's why we have submarine simulation forums and a separated GT. You don't like GT you stay out of it and discuss submarines in the submarine forums. No GT topics there.:yep:


Dammit guys, I told you to stop using logic :O:

[Tchocky]

Suspects spotted in northern France, apparently.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30721677

Hope they're not coming my way :-?

[Skybird]

A German commentator rightfully remarked this: that Europe only has overcome and fought down censorship and oppression of free thought and opinion, to import it once again, needlessly, from the outside. He also reminds of the fact that already since years and decades many courageous writers and publicists iin the West live in fear and hiding due to having offended the big religion that claims that it must be given special rights and treatments and exclusions from the general law. Hundreds and thousands of such brave people are out there, and still refuse to fall silent, while all too often not just being ignored by the public, but even being ridiculed and demonized by those stupids whose rights and freedoms they defend. Around the globe several editors and publishers of Rushdie's Satanic Verses were assaulted, sometimes injured, even killed. Especially saddening it is to see with what vigor any demand for a critical analysis of the failed integration of Muslim migrants and the meaning of that disaster is being suppressed by the political establishments responsible for having started the needless import of this problem, which mainly is the political left, but not only. The debate about Islam in the West is based on sill,y catchphrases, and almost complete lack of knowledge about its real ideology, its fundament int eh written canon, and its history by which it added truth to the archaic goals of the ideology. One does not deal with Islam as what it is, but what one dreams it to be, if only... if only... reality would not come in its way so often. One has opened door and gate for the beast, and now it is in house and one cannot control it and has to constantly improvise workarounds not to meet it, not to disturb it, not to annoy it. Meanwhile, Jews in many countries including Sweden, Germany, Nethelands, France, are declared subjects of free hunts by Arab and Muslim mobs, and newslines about another Jewish couple here, a Rabbi there being beaten up on the streets do not even cause a medial uproar anymore. Its just another of those singular events, isn't it - go on, nothing to see, nothing to watch out for, mind your own business. The fleeing of Jews from several European countries currently is on the highest peak since WWII.

Europe has bitten off a much bigger chunk of hostile ideology than it can chew and digest. And it will cost it dearly.

Of course, eurocrats will continue to deny that as well. Already now the cost to openly confront Islam instead of endlessly appeasing it with ever more special deals agreed for its demands, is seen by many as too high.

It can only become worse if this attitude does not change.

What angers me personally a lot, also is this: that all those well-meaning good-doers trying to be so kind and thoughtful about Islamic sentiments, betray and ignore all those many thousands of people from muslim countries that were born as Muslim property, suffered miserably from that, and took the great risk of fleeing from there, often under biggest costs and losses in family relations and friendships, careers and material wealth, to live in freedom here in bigmouthed Europe - only to see this Europe since years and years falling silent about their persecutors taking more and more land and influence in this place, too, and being once again exposed to the threat they tried to escape from. I am not talking about Syrian wear efugees, but family dramas of individuals and couples claiming the right to decide themselves about whom they marry and what treatment by their tyrannic family they accept or not, individuals that want to break with Islam, and for their apostacy are being threatened with death, and then the many young women for the most who are in danger to be murdered by their brothers because the father claimed their unwillingness to follow his commands whom to marry and how to live, is violating his precious honour he thinks he holds in his tiny testicles. This is so cowardish, cynical and underhanded a treason by Westerners that it really makes my blood boil, because I knew several such people, most of them Iranians.

Currently, Europe mourns, and sheds tears, and holds motivating speeches. Now that there is not any risk at all involved and no courage needed to hold up a sign in a crowd reading "I am Charlie", people follow the popular trends and follow the rite that is expected of them. Betroffenheitskultur, the German word would be. But I am not like that. I am not sad, and I do not cry - I am angry, and I want to see Europeans finally setting up a fight to Islam - finally. Those people now flocking through the streets, the same people that just a day before maybe still said - and already now say again - that one has to see the good in Islam as well and that it all is relative and a question of interpretation, I spit them my despise on their feet, and all they can get in applaus from me for their civilian "courage" by which they "mark a sign", is a slap in their stupid, ignorant face. They should be lambs, not humans, hopping on a meadow and in time being led to the slaughterhouse to contribute to the meal of somebody else.

Europe mourns. It would be more helpful if it would clearly express signs of enragement, and start to dictate Islam its conditions for being condoned in the West. Islam is no part of the Christian-influenced Western world. It always has been its bitter enemy which it repeatedly attacked and tried to submit. Muslim armies stood ion the heart of France, and at Vienna. Their claim back then is the same goal that megalomaniac insanes like Erdoghan eye today. But europeans cry instead of shouting out their anger, and willingness to fight. Poor, sweet little lambs.

Those cartoonists murdered, understood that, and many of those people living in hiding from Islam currently, those many many thousands in all of Europe, understand that as well. That now people who become passionate when it is about defending Islam, say how concerned they feel and how sad it is, to me is nothing else but lacking honesty to themselves, and underhanded hypocrisy. I don't applaud their display of sadness - I want to spank them.

Stop crying, you weak victims. Victim-status does not enoble you, and it does not save your lives, nor does it make those being murdered alive again. Start fighting. It all starts with determination to mark that red line in the sand and tell Islam any any Muslims challenging it: not one further step, or we will give you hell to live in on this our continent. We are the rulers of this place not you. Our will is law in our homes, not yours. Accept that, or leave. We owe your totalitarian, racist, supremacist, intolerant, hate-dripping, underhanded, inconsistent, women-suppressing primitive archaic ideology NOTHING.

That includes fighting your own governments who impose this unfolding disaster onto you, against what I dare to declare the majorty of the people. Most people do not want this massive Muslim migration, and they do not want Islam being given special treatment again and again. They just do not care or do not dare to speak out. The threat of witch hunts that lobbies, media and politicans immediately would launch against them, has done its work. We see it currently happening in Germany again. The intimidation has been deeply internalised. This has to be understood - and then overcome. I did the door-to-door-walking job myself longer time ago, I still recall how limited the willingness to get engaged was in most people, even if they were sympathic with our intentions. So nobody tell me anything on that. If I could do that, and often start fights in arguments with foreigners to challenge their distorted views of Islamic ideology, and got engaged in assisting people struggling to escape Islam, then you and all others can do something like that, too. Hiding in a crowd and using that safety to hold up a sign "I am Charlie", may make you feel comfortable and satisfied with yourself, but it does nothing. Your courage shows when you set up challenges under conditions that are against you. Your character shows when you resist with the odds against you. Running with the mob is easy. Resisting the direction the stream of cattle moves to - that is the trick.

Bringing Islam into the West and anchoring it here, is the work of a minority, and influential and noisy minority, but still: a minority. It is not the whole people.

[STEED]

Not 10 days into the new year, evil is rampant and will get worst. :nope:

[Skybird]

Not 10 days into the new year, evil is rampant and will get worst. :nope:
We are still in just the middle of the first third of the new Islamic attempt to spread into the remaining world.

Two and a half thirds still to be played for the coming two generations or so.

[Onkel Neal]

I wish these threads would stop getting so screwed up.

Part of me wants the GT forum to be deleted, so we can focus on talking about submarines. That's why we're here, right?

GT is only a mirror of the people who post here. If that bothers you, simply do not click on the forum link.

I think when this sort of debate comes up about Islam, people forget something vital: a lot of Muslims don't actually follow Islam to the letter.

After all, Islam is a violent religion, but a lot of Muslims aren't violent people. If terrorists represented the majority of Muslims, wouldn't every Muslim be trying to kill as many non-Muslims as possible?


Most people know this, but many get emotional in these situations and overlook that many Muslims, like many Jews and Christians, do not subscribe to the more violent aspects of their religion. It's a good thing to remind them frequently. But then again:

We're too scared to face Islam and walk on our tiptoes out of fear. We treat no other religion like this....because we fear moderates will go radical. The fact we fear so much moderates will go radical only proves how moderate they are....not so much.

That makes a lot of sense. It would be really helpful if Good Muslims would lead the fight against the Evil Muslims, instead of waiting for the US & Europe to do it. Of course, they fight when the bad guys show up in their village, but maybe we need to draft a Muslim anti-fascist army from the US and Europe, all Muslim men, and send them over to jihad the extremists....;)



I guess that since I do not believe in answering extremism with extremism or violence with violence that I am weak, socialist, communist, European, reasonophobic, Errr...have I missed any of the usual terms treated as derogatory around here? Gun-hating perhaps?
That's fine, I've spent just as long as Skybird defending my beliefs and trying, trying to teach tolerance, understanding and love to a crowd which doesn't believe in any of that. That's fine, if people want to live in fear and hated, and become as bitter and angry as the people they claim to be fighting, then I guess that is their choice. With any luck I'll be long dead before the consequences of such limited thought come into play.

No one here is living in fear and hatred, don't go overboard with the hyperbole. But we do see a widespread problem that needs to be addressed.

[Armistead]

That sounds like Catholicism.
Come to think of it if you take the writings of that person on the hate site Rockstar linked to yesterday its his arguement why Episcopalians should shift to eastern orthodoxy due to the liberalisation of the Anglican church leadership.:hmmm:

It was interesting to see yesterday the arab league, all the muslim governments and the top theology school of sunni islam condemn the attackers...while the conservative US based catholic league condemned the cartoonists.

I don't see Catholics or any religion much better, but least they reformed themselves enough they fit in with the modern age. Reformed religions will follow the rule of law through govt. over their religion. I don't fear being murdered in mass by common religions, a nut may arise, but not entire nations of terrorist..

The big question for Islam is reformation. The religion itself keeps people in mass poverty in Islamic ran states, thus they are easily indoctrinated. It's a religion with a poor economic model. If the people advance in science, world literature, industry and technology in mass, they would join the rest of modern humanity eventually. Any state run by religion, worse, one religion, will always result in failure.

France will soon look like Turkey as Turkey looks more like Iran. France allows Sharia courts, does everything to appease the Muslims at the expense of freedom and equality. With possibly 1000's joining ISIS from Europe, that tells you their mindset, murder of children, ethic slaughter, heads off, and they are coming back home...Enjoy your cameras on every corner, they will only show you the aftermath. Soon you'll see why we in America refuse to give up our guns..

[Tchocky]

France will soon look like Turkey as Turkey looks more like Iran. France allows Sharia courts, does everything to appease the Muslims at the expense of freedom and equality.

Stop being wrong.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/france-burqa-ban-upheld-human-rights-court

Soon you'll see why we in America refuse to give up our guns..Let's try to keep the cesspool threads to one grotty topic at a time.

[Onkel Neal]

Let's try to keep the cesspool threads to one grotty topic at a time.

Hey hey, that kind of verbage makes things better? :cool:

[Betonov]

Love the French flag at the top of the page, nice one Neal

[Rockstar]

That's fine, I've spent just as long as Skybird defending my beliefs and trying, trying to teach tolerance, understanding and love to a crowd which doesn't believe in any of that. That's fine, if people want to live in fear and hated, and become as bitter and angry as the people they claim to be fighting, then I guess that is their choice. With any luck I'll be long dead before the consequences of such limited thought come into play.

I will speak for myself only.

When I hear about terrorists attacking and killing innocents I dont become filled with hatred towards a whole group of people. However I do become angry, frustrated ,coupled with a touch of helplessness over the particular incident. And I most certainly do not live in fear because of it either taking no extra precaution. I simply continue to lead a sensible productive life. If you must know what I really fear it's high tides, skyrocketing price of a good steak and gettting overun by tree rats.

But, if what happened in France happened in my neigbhorhood I can assure everyone here I will not be taking a video of murders killing innocents. Given the chance I will without hesitation splatter their brains all over creation and not lose a bit of sleep. Thats how pissed off I am right now.

Not 'pissed' but 'pissed off' big difference you know:)

[Skybird]

aIf its true what I read - that the police officer shot today was a Muslim female - then this most likely is a terror attack motivated by religion as well, for that woman deserved death for having put herself above the rule and role that Muhammad's teachings have forseen for females. Also, she would be seen as being guilty of cooperating with then enemy. Her duty would have been to stay at home, hidden from the world, and giving birth to new generations of future jihadist warrior.

Some weeks ago, I thin k I mentioned it in some thread somewhere, there was a report about German attempts to get closer to Muslim communities by having more Muslim migrants joining the police. The thing backfires all too often, however, especially in the big cities with huge Muslim communities. There Muslims policeman give feedback that they are hated even more by their likes than native German police officers, because as Muslims with migration background their communities all too often expect them to put their Muslim being above their loyalty to the law and the state (something that Islam absolutely demands: that the loyalty to Islam ranks higher than laws and state membership and nationalities). Many of these migrant police officer live in fear for their own spouses, because they get threatened as well, and in their work on the street when being confronted by Muslim crowds the take even more fire and anger, than native German police officers.

So much for politician's claims that having more Muslim police officers would contribute to the mediating effort towards 'Muslims.

Needless to say: no other religious group and no other migrant group gets this special consideration.

Somebody above again mentions not all Muslims are terrorists. How often again this dud of an argument? I insist on declaring Islam a totalitarian, barbaric, hostile ideology, and if somebody doe snot follow it to the letter, then he is not really a follower of it. Or he only pays lip-confessions when saying he is loyal to Western standards and the secular fundament of our society, which also is a very popular hobby in Muslim communities (taqquiya and all that). The real Muslim is who follows the teachings of Muhammad, and these are such that they leave nothing to be desired to point out their draconic content and intention. Like the real Christian is not necessarily the one attending a church mass on December 24th, but the one who indeed follows the teachings of Christ as told in the New Gospels. And as I already told before: the Germans for the most did not intend or committed themselves to killing Jews with their own individual hands, nevertheless it were the Germans who had this thing called Nazism and Third Reich, and there is no excuse to say that the disaster unfolding were not one of German responsibility. Not every German killed a Jew. Still, the holocaust happened, and it was Germany.

It often makes little sense if some Muslim says he were Muslim if he does not follow basic, elementary principles that define Islam to actually be "Islam". He is an apostate then who does not want to confess his apostacy, or is not aware of it (because full understanding of the full range of Islam is far less spread amongst Muslims than you may take for granted). However: the "apostate" talking ncie of Islam nevertheless paves the way for Islam itself by helping to give it a better reputation, and by that he eases the oath for the real Musalims - that are the ones that Westerners suually think os Islamists and radicals (as if there could have been a difference between Nazis and "Nazissis"). The Western self-deceptions know no limits here, it seems, everything gets desperately believed if it promises an option to think nicer of Islam in an attempt to maintain the illusion that Islam is not at war with all other cultures in the world. But it is, and always has been. A long chain of crushed cultures and submitted kingdoms and empires that it destroyed in the past 13 centuries, speak volumes. The drastic persecution and mass killings of infidels in many M;uslim countries gives further evidence for the relevance of these ideological implications and their motivational effects. Or one asks Muslim clerics and lobbyists about whether Islam is good or bad - what does one expect a Muslim cleric will say, eh? Do you expect an objective answer when asking the Vatikan about the disputable role of a corrupt church in the centuries of the past?

You cannot ignore the ideology and claim that what remains still is Islam. It is something different. Call it anything, but not Islam.

And btw, I said that on earlier occasions, too, it makes no sense if yo meet a man claiming to be a Nazi, and you see him supporting multiculturalism and helping Jews, engaging himself for libertarianism and humanism and defending the right of free speech and speaking out against censorship. Such man may insist on being seen as a Nazi. Nevertheless, he is somebody with an intellectual problem, and a Nazi he certainly is not, no matter his desire to be seen as one. But if you take his misled claim about himself for the truth, when you take his example in deeds as being representative for Nazism because he claims he is a Nazi, then you have a big problem: you legitimise Nazism on the ground of totally wrong and inappropriate assumptions about what Nazism is and wants: you then start to defend Nazism, thinking it were about free speech, multiculturalism, humanism and libertarianism. Now tell me - how clever is that...???

Stop being disgusted by criticism and critics of Islam - you better should start to be disgusted by Islam.

Stop being worried about the self-victimization of Muslims - better be worried about the fate of tens and hundreds of thousands and millions of non-Muslims every year who get persecuted, killed, moved, deported, driven away by Muslim wars of aggression, harassed, discriminated, disadvantaged by Muslim law, and who are withheld from freedom of speech, freedom of practicng religion, freedom to live their lives in liberty, as they want it. There are many infidelks and Muslims alike who flee from the Muslim world into the infidel West. But how many atheists and Christians flee from the West into the Muslim world...?

Stop being foolish, and submissive.

[ikalugin]

I see so you do differentiate between various groups of Muslim people. Muslim as by self identification.

Now, which percent of the Muslims (by self identification) would you view as "true" Muslims (ie conservatives)?

[Skybird]

I see so you do differentiate between various groups of Muslim people. Muslim as by self identification.
I differentiate on the grounds of the Quran, Sira, Shariah, Sunna. This - and only this - defines what "Muslim" is and what not. Anything else is a mistaking of names and labels. And that is why much of the atrocities committed by socalled radicals is more representative for Islam, than the soft-talking and adaptation to Western rules proclaimed by speakers of Western Muslim communities. If these would live in truly Islamic societies and countries - they would be at risk of loosing their lives for their blasphemic words. Two centuries ago, or even less, they just would be stoned in place. And in countries like Iran, this still could happen to you. Here you also have the answer to why many of the atrocities of "radical Muslims" against "ordinary Muslims" - often be given as an example of that the Islamists are not Islamic at all - are nothing controversial from ol' dude Muhammad'S point of view (he did like that himself already). Of course, this can be abused indeed, and it has been abused for sure. The slaves Muslim slave traders hunted in Africa, not rarely belonged to people and tribes that got opportunistically accused of being heretics and apostates who had fallen of the true faith. In the end, Muhammad founded this wholke rleiugous mumbojumbo only as a tool of justifying his warcrimes and predatoryx raids, and to easdily get rid of oppoosition to him be declaring the critic a heretic. And only few things could get you tortured and killed as easily in those times like a charges over claims of heresy. Well, try to bring a bible into Saudi Arabia and wonder whether the old times really are gone...


Thats why usually I attack the ideology, not a group formed of people. The self-proclaimed "Muslim" may or may not be a real Muslim by Quranic standards, I cannot know that,m and for the purpose of these disucssions it is not interesting anyway. The ideology is the problem from which all Muslim evil emits.

If i would see it differently, then I indeed would be nothing else than just a racist. But i do not attack the Arab world for being Arabic. I attack the Arab world for being Muslim. The first is about race, the second is about ideology. That makes me probably an anti-ideologist of some kind.

[Tchocky]

Hey hey, that kind of verbage makes things better? :cool:

Almost certainly not.

Apologies for tone.

[Aktungbby]

NEAL STEVENS: That makes a lot of sense. It would be really helpful if Good Muslims would lead the fight against the Evil Muslims, instead of waiting for the US & Europe to do it. Of course, they fight when the bad guys show up in their village, but maybe we need to draft a Muslim anti-fascist army from the US and Europe, all Muslim men, and send them over to jihad the extremists....;)
Precisely! OUT OF THE FRIGID WASTELAND...A RAY OF HOPE STANDS FORTH!!:up: http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repositoryThumbs/2015-01/averagemohamedjeff-baenen.jpg (http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/2015-01/averagemohamedjeff-baenen.jpg)"A Minneapolis man is waging a war for young Muslims' hearts and minds from a studio thousands of miles from the Middle East.

Mohamed Ahmed has launched AverageMohamed.com (http://averagemohamed.com/). The website offers cartoon videos aimed at countering the messages terrorists use to lure disaffected youths into extremism.

Ahmed says he started his videos out of frustration. He uses bright, simple cartoons aimed at kids ages 8 to 16 and featuring an easy-to-understand message.

The 39-year-old father of four says he doesn't want his children "fighting this war."

[Mr Quatro]

That's the problem, radical and so called moderates still have much in common and it's laughable that we refer to them as moderates ...

Because Islam won't deal with it's issues within itself, the world continues to piecemeal wars every decade, not solving much, because we give up. We'll have many more big acts or terror coming and more wars because no one wants to deal with Islam....

As a group they are fragmented they are not as strong as it would seem. The radicals use fear to fuel the masses to follow their teachings to the extremes of murder and mayhem.

Those men were paid and trained to spread respect for you know who (I'm not going to say his name).

Let them stay fragmented, let them duke it out ... no doubt in my mind who the innocent victims in Israel would be if they were no longer fragmented, but wanted a capital for their (****) religion.

A new Mecca for instance, but that's another subject ... :oops:

Fear generates fear ... they want respect.

[Nippelspanner]

I think when this sort of debate comes up about Islam, people forget something vital: a lot of Muslims don't actually follow Islam to the letter.
Then they aren't Muslims.
It is as simple as that.

That is one common excuse when it is about Islam.
"Most Muslims aren't radicals."

I think most Muslims are simply not Muslims.
Believing in Allah and maybe praying to him doesn't make you a Muslim.
Following the Qur'an as accurate as possible, does.

"We are what we do."

[Oberon]

Good ...I suppose that how it will be with some minor adjustments.

Here are some thoughts from Ha'aretz cartoonist....

I hope that's how it will be. But they say when you fight monsters for long enough you become one...but I guess time will tell.

And deport those that are filled with hate speech.
I don't mind Ahmed coming in with his wife and 3 children and then work as a janitor or engineer, sending his kids trough college to become the next generation of engineers and doctors.

But c'mon, we really need to send a lot of the bad eggs back home.

Not a bad idea, in theory, but giving a government the power to decide what is a good or bad thing to say is a dangerous thing, but certainly the worst of them should be either imprisoned, or expelled...although to be fair, in Europe, they would probably be able to find their way back into the country fairly easily... :/\\!!

I hear China has a lot of rare earth deposits.
We supply the workforce and keep 3/4 of the ore :hmmm:

That's one way to get the Chinese on side I suppose... :haha:

What's the Chinese for Rura Penthe? :hmmm:

Wasn't there a guy in the UK who once thought the same way? I guess his name was Chamberlain and we know how the story ended. Sometimes the peaceful way doesn't work as it requires your opponent to accept logic and reasoning. Both are lacking in hate filled ideologies and religions. Just waiting and appeasing doesn't always work.

Oi, don't you knock my mate Neville! He said there would be peace in our time...he didn't say exactly when!

http://i.imgur.com/w6xOpD9.jpg?1

Joking aside, it's a shame that Chamberlain has become remembered only for one thing. As peace-time Prime Ministers go, he wasn't that bad so they say.

Besides, let's look at the term appeasement.

"The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain peace."

I have not once suggested that concessions be made to anyone. So your parallels don't really work out that well. What I am striving to prevent is the creation of a European Frame-of-mind which views the whole of Islam as the enemy, that views every single follower of Islam, or every person that calls themselves a Muslim as a potential target. That's a dangerous road to go down, as I am sure that you know, that when you start viewing people as a thing rather than a person, it becomes a lot easier to dehumanise them, and once you dehumanise them, you can do all sorts of things to them with little impact on the general public conscience.
I'm sure that this is something that's been hammered into the German conscience for the same reasons that the name Chamberlain has been hammered into the European conscience as a term for appeasement.
In short, we must not view all Muslims as radical Muslims view all non-Muslims.

Don't get me wrong, I have never, and will never call for the ending of our campaign against ISIL, we should ground them into the dirt and destroy every radical violent Muslim terrorist that we find in a manner which ultimately humiliates their cause, but that does not drag us down into the dirt with them. I believe that we need to cut off their greatest strength, their ability to convert disaffected Muslim youths by doing all that we can to make sure that they convert as few as possible. Fight their ideology with ideology of our own, but treating all Muslims as a threat is going to have the complete opposite effect, and just jack up the conversion rate and consequently the attack rate.

Someone on here, I think it might be eddie, has a quote from Al Capone which I like to think would apply to my train of thought:
"Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me."

No, I was specific, I wasn't on about the nuke them all crowd I referred to those couple of individuals on this forum who had specificly "justified" the murder of children in pursuit of their own ideology.
The examples were taken from topics on Iraq Lebanon Palestine and Norway.
Please be accurate Oberon, it was you who included the "nuke them all" crowd into the equation.

Anyway back to the comedy.
WARNING.... adult language....not safe for those with delicate sensibilities.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-paris-attack-cartoon-bell

D'oh! My bad, well I retract that part, but the sentiment remains.
Steve Bell is a legend. :salute:

No one here is living in fear and hatred, don't go overboard with the hyperbole. But we do see a widespread problem that needs to be addressed.

You're probably right about the fear and hatred, in my defence it had been a long morning and for reasons I cannot legally go into at the moment, I've had a busy few days.
There is a problem, I think everyone sees that, what is different is what people believe the problem to be, either the whole of Islam, or just part of it. Furthermore, the other difference is what people believe the solution to be, drastic violent action against the whole of Islam, or concerted long time efforts against the radicals.

I will speak for myself only.

When I hear about terrorists attacking and killing innocents I dont become filled with hatred towards a whole group of people. However I do become angry, frustrated ,coupled with a touch of helplessness over the particular incident. And I most certainly do not live in fear because of it either taking no extra precaution. I simply continue to lead a sensible productive life. If you must know what I really fear it's high tides, skyrocketing price of a good steak and gettting overun by tree rats.

But, if what happened in France happened in my neigbhorhood I can assure everyone here I will not be taking a video of murders killing innocents. Given the chance I will without hesitation splatter their brains all over creation and not lose a bit of sleep. Thats how pissed off I am right now.

Not 'pissed' but 'pissed off' big difference you know:)


Well said, very well said indeed. If I had the means and opportunity to have killed the three terrorists involved in this attack then I would not lose a minutes sleep in doing so. If there was a button on a board which said "Remove radicals" I would press it, whilst singing a happy song...and then probably find out to my detriment that I'm classified as a radical. :haha:
It does piss me off that this sort of thing happens, and it pisses me off that some people generalise so much when they respond to it. That some people become radical in the response to the radicals. :dead:

Perhaps we can all just agree on our hopes that the French police are able to catch these terrorists as soon as possible. I think we can all agree on that at the very least. :yep:

[Betonov]

Not a bad idea, in theory, but giving a government the power to decide what is a good or bad thing to say is a dangerous thing, but certainly the worst of them should be either imprisoned, or expelled...although to be fair, in Europe, they would probably be able to find their way back into the country fairly easily... :/\\!!




You don't have to give government the power. Just pass a law that replaces certain prison sentences with exile for certain individuals. And let the courts handle it like they handled it until now. Chicken thieves still get a fine/cooler, hate mongers and hate bringers get the boot.

[Jeff-Groves]

What if one hates chickens?
:hmmm:

[Betonov]

I don't think that's a crime.
Especially the chicken my mother cooks :nope:
Always too much fat on the outside, dry as sahara on the inside.

[Oberon]

Always tricky to get chicken that isn't too greasy and yet isn't too dry. :hmmm:

Getting back to the matter at hand, it's defining what a hate-monger and hate-bringer is which is the slightly harder bit without infringing on the right to freedom of speech. :dead:

[Jeff-Groves]

It gets tricky on defining.
So I hate liers.
I know a bunch of so called 'christians' that lie and cheat as if it's thier divine right.
Do I also hate 'christians'?
:hmmm:

I do hate chickens. Little peckers running around the neighborhood!

[Oberon]

I do hate chickens. Little peckers running around the neighborhood!

Ah, but what about chickens that don't run around the neighbourhood? :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Little peckers running around the neighborhood! I really want to make a joke about a midget nude community.
When humorists get murdered for their humor, is it appropriate or not appropriate to make fun of it :hmmm:

[Jeff-Groves]

Ah, but what about chickens that don't run around the neighbourhood? :hmmm:

I don't have the evidence, but I suspect they are the Master Minds of those that do!
Time to buy a few drones?
:haha:

Cows are involved also!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

[Betonov]

http://assets.goodstatic.com/s3/magazine/assets/540809/original/Screen_Shot_2015-01-08_at_11.20.48_AM.png=s900x1300

[Oberon]

Cows are involved also!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

I thought it was the Cows and Chickens that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Or has the American media been lying to me? :hmmm:

[Jeff-Groves]

Nah. Stan provided that doctored photo to stop the Hate mongering of Whales and Dolphins.
I suspect the CIA is behind it.
(Chickens Inslave All)

See. You have to remember the evolution of stuff.
Chickens are just dinosaurs that got puny so have a longer linage then humans.
They've been laying in wait to rise again!
I think crossing the roads we built started it.

[Dan D]

I don't think that's a crime.
Especially the chicken my mother cooks :nope:
Always too much fat on the outside, dry as sahara on the inside.

Come on, that is easy. You open a can of beer , you stick the chicken on the can of beer with its behind, put the chicken in the oven, and when the beer can is almost empty, the chicken is ready to be served.

[Jeff-Groves]

Shades of Dracul!!
:o
I hate chickens but impaling them?
:haha:

[Tchocky]

https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/553469523945590784?s=09

Shots fired, possible hostage situation.

Morning all.

[Oberon]

Damn, typical cowards to go for taking hostages, not surprising. The French police are damn good though so hopefully they'll be able to get these sods, dead or alive.

[Skybird]

Hope the hostage gets freed unharmed, but the murderers I hope get killed. I hate the idea that immense amounts of time, personnel resources and money get wasted on formalities and bureaucratic time consuming procedures, court instances, proceedings, and finally a stay in prison where they can convert more prisoners for Islam. Not mentioning the endless and repetitive media coverage it would get over the months if not years. Lets shoot them, clean up the mess, and then move on with life. Much more economic solution. That might not be for the sensible of hearts. But it would be the clever thing to do.

[Betonov]

I really don't mind wiping them off the planet. It's like taking out the trash.
Problem is that they live to die as martyrs. And martyrdom is not something we want to give them. it's like a beacon to the rest of the maniacs

[Tchocky]

We're having to reroute Paris arrivals, as the standoff is close to the inbound runway.

Funny how these things can reach out and affect your life.

[Jimbuna]

Another report of shooting and hostage situation in Paris Kosher grocery store:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2903380/Another-gunman-takes-hostage-kosher-grocery-Paris-police-fear-gunman-shot-dead-policewoman-yesterday.html

There are also reports on tv of racist graffiti being found on the gates of a mosque so the escalation may get out of hand if the government can't keep a lid on matters.

Cool heads everyone.

[Rockstar]

I'm tired of the circus, behave like sick animals then get treated as sick animals. Put them down.

[Dowly]

This is not good. :nope:

Hopefully, the goat shackers will get their slow, painful, messy due very soon. :yep:

[Betonov]

Maybe we could make homosexuality a crime so if they are sent to prison, they'll have ample company.

[Skybird]

The pig yesterday shooting a policewomen shared prison cell with one of the murderous brothers.

Now a hostage and kill situation in a Jewish store.

:shifty:

Meanwhile the speaker of the Muslim council in Germany has called for and helped to arrange a demonstration for the weekend, together with Christians and Jews, against the terror in Paris. However, it was too much demanded of him ONCE AGAIN to leave it to protest against Muslim terrorism - he nevertheless must took the opportunity to mourn about the discrimination of Muslims in Germany, telling the Germans once again that they must be more tolerant. Once again the self-victimization of Muslims makes it into the leading points of the daily.

To simply demonstrate against Muslim terror is not his thing. When a couple of weeks ago demonstrations by Palestinians against Israel escalated in Germany, hate speech was delivered and demands for assassinating Jews and killing all Israel were voiced in public, he also stepped before the cameras and "condemned" these events - but not without relativizing them immediately and lecturing Germans once again about how badly they do in integrating Muslims (as if that would not be the thing the migrants would need to care of).

And yesterday I saw some leading French Imam appearing on the scene of the crime in Paris, and immediately when the TV spot started to show him I mentally started a stopwatch in my head: he needed less than one minute before he came to that part of his program where with all resoluteness and probably also not for the first time he made it clear that "Islam had nothing to do with this, nothing".

As long as Islamic people are allowed to get away with this, they will never start to critically reflect about the violent and intolerant content of ol' Muhammad's orders and demands. And why should they? We let them getting away with it.

I have a different message to them, than what they want to hear, and it goes like this: fly with the crows - get shot with the crows. Basta. I am too sick and tired of their notorious bloody eggdance.

BTW, Muslim militia Boko Haram yesterday stormed a town in Nigeria and killed over 2000 people. They seem to have been Christians, I read. Just saying, to put the events in France a bit into perspective. In the great picture of Muslim global terror, Paris is just a little story. They wanted media attention - and our media is so kind to provide them with it en masse. That is what terrorism as about. Those brothers may get killed. But they nevertheless have achieved their objective. Their "scene" will celebrate them, their example will motivate others.

And we will indeed be made to beleive that it is our fauilt for not haviung integrated them. Its not their job, its our job, this integration.

The mnost obvious question almost never gets asked. Why is it that so many people do not wish to have anything to do with Islam? Religious motivations it cannot be, we are not the Europoe of 300 years ago anymore. Racism it also cannot just be, because too many non-Muslim migrant groups get lived together so problemless and peacefully, and them often becoming so well integrated and successful. The problems always is with Muslim migrant groups.

The answer is: they always want special deals, special treatment, special exceptions from the rules, in the name of their precious religious this, religious that. It is powerpolitics dressed in religious clothes to make them untouchable and to abuse the constitutional guarantee for the right of free religious practice.

Down the street where I live, there lives a Muslim man, from Syria, since over twenty years. I have collided with him before repeatedly, he is a real piece of dirt, really: righteous, zealous, and knowing with great precision what PC-buttons to push to talk Germans into retreat. This morning when leaving the house I ran into him, and he lectured me en passant: "See what you got there! That happens when you (he meant Western people in general) do think deprecatingly of Islam!"

Who said that all Muslims denying the link between terror and ideology, are stupid? This Penner was stupid enough not to deny it.

That azz has five children, all born in Germany, and lives by social wellfare. He does not work. I also do not work anymore, but I do not let the state or others pay for me, and I do not f#ck around like a rabbit and create more social wellfare receivers. What I take, I pay for, what is mine, was not paid for by the taxpayer, but by me and/or my family.

Last comment by me on this whole damn issue. The anger about all this Islam-waste kills me otherwise.

[Nippelspanner]

Once again the self-victimization of Muslims makes it into the leading points of the daily.
I noticed this trend too. :shifty:

[Tchocky]

Cheers.


That will brighten up the thread considerably.

If the revenge pornographers would can it as well that would be nice, but that's more of a short-term emotional reaction rather than a deeply disturbing and deeply held one.


Sunny days ahead.

[Armistead]

Looks like they went in or a fight breaking out....may the terrorist rest in pieces....

[Tchocky]

Looks like we lost one from the thread and gained another. At least this rubbish is a shorter read.

For God's sake, people.


I think we should electronically tag all Muslims and make an iPhone app available so that we can be alerted when there might be ONE OF THEM near MY CHILDREN.


Mods, mods mods mods.


EDIT - Looks like the two holed up on the printworks may be dead. Good job gendarmes and GIGN. May their names be swiftly forgotten and may France emerge stronger.

[Betonov]

I think we should electronically tag all Muslims and make an iPhone app available so that we can be alerted when there might be ONE OF THEM near MY CHILDREN.




Given the level of paranoia in the air, one could make millions with such an app.

[CCIP]

Personally the more attacks are made by Jewish zionists the less I am inclined to want any integration. I think I would vote for an 1800s style Indian reservation for Jews in some remote barren area where everything about their community can be monitored and controlled. I guess this is what the Nazis had to do with the Jews.

Listen to yourself.



I'm boycotting this forum until this madness stops :down:

[Tchocky]

Given the level of paranoia in the air, one could make millions with such an app.

Blech. Don't even start :) I'd forgotten how fast the fascists come out of the woodwork.


Seems like the supermarket hostage taker is also dead. Seeing as he was threatening to kill unless the two brothers were released, the necessity for simultaneous operations must have been high.

Well done to the French security guys.

[Skybird]

All bad guys dead, nobody escaped, hostages alive. Under the messy circumstances existing at the end: best possible outcome. Congrats to French police.

[Betonov]

...the necessity for simultaneous operations must have been high.

Well done to the French security guys.

The French were always good at that. Remember Austerlitz. He had 4 armies in support to be force marched if needed, the Austrians and Russians couldn't even get the same date together

[Skybird]

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/15_gennaio_09/how-to-respond-to-the-attack-paris-e84f7e24-97e3-11e4-bb9d-b2ffcea2bbd2.shtml

[Tchocky]

Reports of four hostages dead at the supermarket. Very sad.

[Nippelspanner]

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/15_gennaio_09/how-to-respond-to-the-attack-paris-e84f7e24-97e3-11e4-bb9d-b2ffcea2bbd2.shtml
What do we get in return? Kalashnikovs in the heart of Paris. The more we oblige, the more we self-censor, the more we appease, the bolder the enemy gets.
:up:

[Dowly]

Sad indeed. :-?

[Skybird]

Police says four hostages were killed prior to the start of police action.


In Malik’s analysis of Quranic strategy, the human soul — and not any physical battlefield — is the center of conflict. The key to victory, taught by Allah through the military campaigns of the Prophet Muhammad, is to strike at the soul of your enemy. And the best way to strike at your enemy’s soul is through terror. Terror, Malik writes, is “the point where the means and the end meet.” Terror, he adds, “is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose.”
(...)
How we respond to this attack is of great consequence. If we take the position that we are dealing with a handful of murderous thugs with no connection to what they so vocally claim, then we are not answering them. We have to acknowledge that today’s Islamists are driven by a political ideology, an ideology embedded in the foundational texts of Islam. We can no longer pretend that it is possible to divorce actions from the ideals that inspire them.

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/15_gennaio_09/how-to-respond-to-the-attack-paris-e84f7e24-97e3-11e4-bb9d-b2ffcea2bbd2.shtml

[Dowly]

The French were always good at that. Remember Austerlitz. He had 4 armies in support to be force marched if needed, the Austrians and Russians couldn't even get the same date together
When thinking about French operations, especially hostage crisis, I always think of the Air France 8969 operation.

[Tchocky]

There's an echo in here.

[Nippelspanner]

The following article is, unfortunately, in German, but those interested may try Google translate.
It is about the ongoing hypocrisy with the "Je suis Charlie!" banners, made and held up by the press who dare to talk about freedom of speech/opinion/expression.

"You are not Charlie!" (http://www.schweizmagazin.ch/panorama/21859-Ihr-seid-nicht-Charlie.html)

[Betonov]

When thinking about French operations, especially hostage crisis, I always think of the Air France 8969 operation.

The Airbus A300B2-1C, tail number F-GBEC, had first flown on 28 February 1980.

That airplane has the same birthday as me, only 6 years older.

Sorry, couldn't help noticing

[Skybird]

The following article is, unfortunately, in German, but those interested may try Google translate.
It is about the ongoing hypocrisy with the "Je suis Charlie!" banners, made and held up by the press who dare to talk about freedom of speech/opinion/expression.

"You are not Charlie!" (http://www.schweizmagazin.ch/panorama/21859-Ihr-seid-nicht-Charlie.html)

People are lazy, so make it as easy for them as possible :D :

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.schweizmagazin.ch%2Fpanorama%2F 21859-Ihr-seid-nicht-Charlie.html&edit-text=
Just hbit the button there.

And compare it with my own post:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2275993&postcount=78

Currently, Europe mourns, and sheds tears, and holds motivating speeches. Now that there is not any risk at all involved and no courage needed to hold up a sign in a crowd reading "I am Charlie", people follow the popular trends and follow the rite that is expected of them. Betroffenheitskultur, the German word would be. But I am not like that. I am not sad, and I do not cry - I am angry, and I want to see Europeans finally setting up a fight to Islam - finally. Those people now flocking through the streets, the same people that just a day before maybe still said - and already now say again - that one has to see the good in Islam as well and that it all is relative and a question of interpretation, I spit them my despise on their feet, and all they can get in applause from me for their civilian "courage" by which they "mark a sign", is a slap in their stupid, ignorant face. They should be lambs, not humans, hopping on a meadow and in time being led to the slaughterhouse to contribute to the meal of somebody else.

[Tchocky]

Skybird is apparently not satisfied with labelling every Muslim (fake or not) a threat.

All of you who said anything in support of Charlie Hebdo or anything in commiseration with those who lost their lives. You're all jerks too and deserve a slap in your stupid ignorant faces.

And apparently you should be eaten afterwards. Or something.


It's going to get lonely when there's nobody left to hate and you're standing in the street screaming at corpses.

[Armistead]

With these dirtbags today, you may as well fight from the start, rather than let them get any control over you for torture and death anyway...

I suspect this is the beginning. I can see a future where these acts keep major cities in crisis for a long time to go....massive closings, highways shutdown, etc....

But still we want to appease Islam.....It's just we know moderates in most places aren't moderates....

[Tchocky]

But still we want to appease Islam.....It's just we know moderates in most places aren't moderates....

I thought I told you to stop being wrong about "appeasing Islam" in France.

Whatever the hell that's supposed to mean anyway.

[Tchocky]

:rotfl2:That's a cutting comment.
But really Tchocky, you are better than that, you shouldn't mock the afflicted.

I'm nowhere close to mocking, I'm ashamed to be on the same forum as this decrepit excuse for an opinionated blowhard.


People deserve physical violence and death for not hating the same thing as he does.

Death for speaking out after barbarism instead of before.

Death for not sharing his opinion.

I pity the mod who has to claw through that. That kind of thinking belongs on the ash heap.

[Tchocky]

I don't really want to further derail it, man.


Seems the young lady hostage taker survived the supermarket assault. I wonder what we'll find out from her.

[Oberon]

It's getting a little confusing, but then I've been locked away in a court room all day so I've been only able to scan the news from time to time on my phone on the way there and back. So, is this woman a friend of one of the guys who shot up the magazine building, and the other two guys at the warehouse are the remainder of the three original attackers?

Either which way, a very professional response to the situation by the French police, they were very quick to close down the scenes, I recall one eyewitness saying that within five minutes of shots being fired the police had helicopters in the area.

So good work to the police, a job well done, would have been better to have got them alive and oubliette them, but the longer it went on the more likely that more people would have been killed, so it just wasn't plausible.

[Penguin]

I've been locked away in a court room all day

Finally! :D


So, is this woman a friend of one of the guys who shot up the magazine building, and the other two guys at the warehouse are the remainder of the three original attackers?


The reports are still a bit uncertain, whether there were 2 or one attackers in the supermarket - the girl said to be the fiancée of the perp shot in Paris. She is on the run now.
The third guy wanted in connection with Charlie Hebro apparently has an alibi for the time of the attack, it is said that one of the Hebro killers was his bro-in-law.

[Penguin]

The following article is, unfortunately, in German, but those interested may try Google translate.
It is about the ongoing hypocrisy with the "Je suis Charlie!" banners, made and held up by the press who dare to talk about freedom of speech/opinion/expression.

"You are not Charlie!" (http://www.schweizmagazin.ch/panorama/21859-Ihr-seid-nicht-Charlie.html)

I see your right-wing opinion piece and raise you yesterday's comment by Yücel from the Taz (http://taz.de/Kommentar-Je-suis-Charlie-Hebdo/!152463/).

Here's a link to the Google translation for the barbarians who don't understand German (https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftaz.de%2FKommentar-Je-suis-Charlie-Hebdo%2F%21152463%2F&edit-text=) as I'm too lazy to translate it.

Some additions for the non-Germans:
First paragraph's last sentence: "These people are a few left-liberal cartoonists ****" means they are crap to them.
Pegida is an anti-Islam(ization) movement, AfD is a Euro-sceptical party, NPD a Nazi party.

Second paragraph: "Titanic" and "Postillion" are satire mags - "nüscht" is Berlin slang for nothing.

The rest should hopefully be understandable.

[Jeff-Groves]

Here's a link to the Google translation for the barbarians who don't understand German (https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Ftaz.de%2FKommentar-Je-suis-Charlie-Hebdo%2F%21152463%2F&edit-text=) as I'm too lazy to translate it.


:o
WTH? I'm a Barbarian for not reading German?
:haha:

I wanted to learn German in High School but all they offered was French or Spanish.

[Rockstar]

http://www.ambarb.com/comics/2010-06-08ambarb.jpg

[Schroeder]

@Penguin

Awesome stuff. That is exactly what I'm thinking and it's good to hear it from a guy who is of Turkish decent.
Not all Muslims are evil but there is a need for Islam to look at itself and do something about radicals.

[Penguin]

:o
WTH? I'm a Barbarian for not reading German?
:haha:

I wanted to learn German in High School but all they offered was French or Spanish.

Don't worry, you guys can still become our vassals once Paukenschlag 2.0 works out. :arrgh!:

I don't think you missed much. I have a friend who had 2 years of German in HS, when she came to Germany she noticed we speak totally different here - after a year here, she learned it - good ole practice vs theory :)!

[Jeff-Groves]

Well. To be honest? Being called a barbarian is probably the best thing I was called all day!
:har:
When Monday rolls around and the Wife gets home?
It will get worse!

[Catfish]

Thanks Penguin, good article.

And thanks to Neal, good Subsim Logo :up:

[Penguin]

@Penguin

Awesome stuff. That is exactly what I'm thinking and it's good to hear it from a guy who is of Turkish decent.
Not all Muslims are evil but there is a need for Islam to look at itself and do something about radicals.

I forget to mention, he also pretty much reflected my opinion - I especially like his "no freaking buts" attitude. I noticed this guy for the first time during the Gaza operation last summer, where he was one of most levbel-headed commentators.

The biggest question to us here is how prevalent those voices are among the people with a muslim background. I can only tell anectdotical evidence, but more than once my chin dropped when talking with immigrants about "Abschiebung". Basically I noticed they have a very strong opinion how their criminal countrymen should be deported, for the reason how those bad seeds reflect on their whole community.

[danasan]

[QUOTE=Jeff-Groves;2276414]:o
WTH? I'm a Barbarian for not reading German?
:haha:

- SNIP - \QUOTE

It could have been worse. Think of those Barbarians who actually CAN read German...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?pictureid=7807&albumid=916&dl=1420829518&thumb=1

Fill in your favourite ehmmm ... whatever...

@ Penguin:

You are doing a good job here again :yep:, IIRC, you are a journalist?

EDIT: PLEASE note, I really do mean those chickens and all the German - Reading Barbarian Birds here around...

[Bubblehead1980]

With these dirtbags today, you may as well fight from the start, rather than let them get any control over you for torture and death anyway...

I suspect this is the beginning. I can see a future where these acts keep major cities in crisis for a long time to go....massive closings, highways shutdown, etc....

But still we want to appease Islam.....It's just we know moderates in most places aren't moderates....

Exactly. The appeasers, PC crowd who refuse to see and tell the truth about Islam are just as if not more dangerous than the "radical" muslims themselves.Bill Maher is one liberal who tells the truth about Islam.France is suffering the end result of mindless unchecked immigration from the muslim world, chickens are coming home to roost so to speak. Really is sad, beautiful country(I visited this past summer) and people overall.

The US has suffered but will suffer even more if we do not take a real and strong stance soon. Just a quote I saw somewhere "A radical muslim wants to cut your head off.A "moderate muslim" wants to watch the radical muslim cut your head off."

BTW, to curb the faux outrage from the usual suspects, I am not saying all followers of Islam are terrorists or support such barbaric attacks as those in Paris recently.However, there is a large percentage who conduct the violence and perpetuate the violence and an even larger percentage who hide under the cloak of the "moderate" label yet tacitly support the radicals who carry out the attacks.

This also speaks to the big picture.The clash of civilizations, we simply can not coexist.Western values and Islamic values just do not mesh, never have and never will.One is modern and has improved the human condition for the most part, values liberty and individual freedom(not as much as once did but a different argument) while the other is stuck in the dark ages.Unfortunately that means over a billion people are stuck in the dark ages, well most of them.Some on here will try to say that's not true blah blah, just look at facts and the history, ignore them you will, I am sure but honestly.The Paris attack should be a wake up call for EVERYONE.

What is the answer? Well certainly not something like a massive war to try and wipe it out, that is just as barbaric and perpetuating the cycle of violence.Outlawing the religion in our lands? No, that is against out values and violates our rights.What should be done?

Honestly, it's complicated and will not pretend to know the answer.One thing is not check our tolerance, make sure we are not so tolerant and our leaders, culture, media etc does not appease these enemies of humanity/I nearly puked when of course on MSNBC, not long after news of the attacks broke, some loon on there was faulting "Islamophobia" in France as the cause of the attacks.People like this are part of the problem and just as dangerous as the enemy.SMH

Nice to be back, been too long since I have signed in here lol.

[Jeff-Groves]

IIRC, you are a journalist?
Hold on! :timeout:
I thought media people were the bad guys?
Did I miss something?
:har:

[Rockstar]

Hold on! :timeout:
I thought media people were the bad guys?
Did I miss something?
:har:

Just wait a few moments someone will come in here label it a hate site, then go on about how even though they carry the banner of the great chicken, cluck like a chicken, peck like a chicken and publically claim to be chickens. Will still try to convince me and others they really are not chickens. But as I said before dont waste your time trying to convince me, go convince the chickens.

[Jeff-Groves]

http://fsb.zedge.net/scale.php?img=Mi84LzAvMS8xLTk4MDQzMjktMjgwMTcyMC5q cGc&ctype=1&v=4&q=81&xs=620&ys=383&sig=3cbb605e78fee901f0a0f65bb2806ee62eb71b20

[Penguin]

IIRC, you are a journalist?

Nah, I am a tv tech. Although I had a press card for some time, I mainly worked for satire - unfortunately the DJW sees it similar and tightened the rules for their membership, excluding folks who mostly work at producing fictional content.

That's why I wrote earlier that the CH attack felt hittinng pretty close to home to me - and that's why I understand the "Screw y'all - now more than ever!"-attitude by satire editors.

[Skybird]

24 hours ago, Saudi Arabia paid lip-confessions and "condemened" the terror strike in France as "unislamic". Today, regime- and Islam-critical blogger Raif Badawi was given 50 beats with the whip after the Friday "prayer", which is the beginning of his penalty to which he was sentenced for "offending Islam". Every 8 days from now on he will be whipped again, because the total penalty to which he was sentenced, is for 1000 beats with the whip.

He hardly will survive that until the end.

Saudi Arabia further supports Islamic terrorism and radicalisation centres across the whole West with several hundred Million dollars per year.

Thank Allah all that has nothing to do with Islam. What a relief. And they thankfully expressed their condemnation of the attack in Paris, which really is not easy to achieve and is quite an investment.

Good friends are precious in times like these! :yeah:

[em2nought]

Good friends are precious in times like these! :yeah:

I agree, lets put import duties on their frickin' oil just to show them that we don't "need" them anymore at all. People that aren't "needed" should learn to play nice lest they get a visit from Bockscar or Enola Gay. :up:

Ok, I've got ulterior motives for the "oil" bit. Don't think I like seeing us stack out. Going to hurt my pocketbook if rigs aren't moving. :nope:

[Tchocky]

Edited to remove just about everything.

[Skybird]

...

Tchocky, your demands mean nothing to me. Nor does your split-tongued thinking. And now come back to your senses and some basic behavioral rules in this forum. Or stay away. That we two cannot stand each other we know since many years, but we must not bother the whole board with it on and on. And I certainly have no interest to start trading PMs with you. You can chat with Tribesman. I think his company will suit you well.

So again, stay way.

You start to sound like a 12 year old heading for puberty.

[Rockstar]

http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa408/jky242/66e37001d56904f00b04fe507e68f220.jpg

[Tchocky]

Tchocky, your demands mean nothing to me.

I'm not exactly surprised.

Nor does your split-tongued thinking.Split-tongued? Hardly. I've been perfectly clear that I find your ideas execrable, loathsome and worthy of nothing but derision and abuse. If I've been less then forthright in this regard please let me know and I'd be happy to elaborate.

I can do so with only the rubbish you've posted today. It's not difficult.

By the way, any evidence you have of me being split-tongued would be appreciated. Since it's so obvious to you it shouldn't be hard to find. Either back it up or keep your mouth shut.

And now come back to your senses and some basic behavioral rules in this forum. Or stay away.Don't even consider taking this line of argument with me again.

Don't even consider bringing the idea of "basic behaviour" to your side of this argument.

It doesn't suit you. You wouldn't like it.

I repeat your words back to you. You think those who supported Charlie Hebdo after the massacre deserve nothing but pain and death. I say get that off these boards. There are plenty of places online where these views will be welcomed with open arms. I'd point you to them but I like these shoes.

Don't hide your ideas from criticism behind forum rules. You don't believe in human decency so...

Do not wish pain and misery upon good people because they don't share your opinions. Perhaps I'm asking too much. Time may tell. It may not.

That we two cannot stand each other we know since many years, but we must not bother the whole board with it on and on. That's a curious way of looking at things. The boards can handle a little conflict.

And I certainly have no interest to start trading PMs with you. You can chat with Tribesman. I think his company will suit you well.What in God's name makes you think I want a PM from you. You said these things on the forum, you get called out on it on the forum. I have no interest in making this less public.

The feeling is mutual regarding a private message. Deletion upon arrival is the policy for people like you.

Tribesman has absolutely nothing to do with this.

I'm sick of your hatred and fascism clogging up a place that I actually like. There are plenty of forums that would love to have you. Go there and say these things. You might find someone who agrees with you, I hate to say it.


Get it off my screen.

Don't ask for the protection of the rules of civilised interaction when you are fundamentally uncivilised. It doesn't suit you and you wouldn't like it.


You start to sound like a 12 year old heading for puberty.That's classy.

Go. Away.

edit - words in the wrong order.Happens to the best of us.

[nikimcbee]

Time for a commercial break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8Isw6CzHc

[CCIP]

Thocky, I totally sympathise with your frustration, but don't waste your time trying to discredit Skybird, because Skybird isn't going to budge and is completely incorgible. The fortunate thing, of course, is that his obtuseness guarantees that he's not likely to influence anyone likely to be influenced by that sort of thing - and anyone intelligent enough will always be able to see through the textwall tactics.

That said, I find veiling calls for genocide, concentration, institutional discrimination and international war on ideological grounds to be abhorrent and unacceptable and, as I said, I really don't know if I can stay on Subsim much - for all my love for this site, I also (like Tchocky) don't want to be in the same room as people who think saying that kind of thing is fine, let alone right. It's abhorrent, infuriating and dehumanizing.

[Stealhead]

Time for a commercial break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8Isw6CzHc
Finland is awesome.

[Rockstar]

Thocky, I totally sympathise with your frustration, but don't waste your time trying to discredit Skybird, because Skybird isn't going to budge and is completely incorgible. The fortunate thing, of course, is that his obtuseness guarantees that he's not likely to influence anyone likely to be influenced by that sort of thing - and anyone intelligent enough will always be able to see through the textwall tactics.

That said, I find veiling calls for genocide, concentration, institutional discrimination and international war on ideological grounds to be abhorrent and unacceptable and, as I said, I really don't know if I can stay on Subsim much - for all my love for this site, I also (like Tchocky) don't want to be in the same room as people who think saying that kind of thing is fine, let alone right. It's abhorrent, infuriating and dehumanizing.

I think your anger here is in my humble opinion projected upon the wrong people.

Just in case you didnt know there are well funded organizations and individuals out there right now, who have on a daily basis actually carried out those things you stated as being abhorrent unacceptable to you. They have instilled fear and terror upon the world.

Just in the last few days they have murdered two thousand, gunning down elderly men, women because they couldn't flee fast enough, kidnapped young girls and boys and murdered the innocent because of a cartoon. These animals have murdered my true neighbor and allies, commited genocide, instigated regional warfare, kidnapped, destroyed villages. Disfigured others, cut off hands and heads, and tortured men and women for simply speaking words against their precious religion.

While you direct your anger at someone who has simply spoke his mind and pointed out the obvious.

What you read here simply various opinions and thoughts about a certain evil in this world most likely stemming from our anger, frustration and helplessness as we watch innocent people die.

Don't let the door hit you in the hindend on the way out.

[Sailor Steve]

Don't let the door hit you in the hindend on the way out.
I think your post was quite good right up until that last sentiment. You are also addressing a member who did nothing more than voice his own opinion. I agree with your opinion more than his in this case, but there is still no reason for that kind of comment.

[CCIP]

And that right there is the problem, the insistence on dividing everything into "us and them", the "good guys vs. bad guys", "black and white". I have no sympathy and a lot of anger at the terrorists. I despise those who support them and argue for them, and I have a lot of ideological concerns, even with their religion. But you can't start dehumanizing and you can't rely on emotional language and bright examples to make arguments that boil down to, well, what do they boil down to? All I've done is extended the logical conclusion of "othering" arguments and their sociopolitical implications. At the very least, those need to be addressed. And when they're stated out in the open, I think I rightly abhor them.

I'm not opposed to hunting down and neutralizing actual terrorists, and I applaud the French police for doing so. I'm all for critically questioning and satirically testing religion and everything else. I unequivocally support actual victims of terrorism, and believe me, I've more than enough personal experience with them.

There's a million logical and rhetorical fallacies in this argument, but the most prominent one is the one that I brought up a couple of days back in the "Stockhold Syndrome" thread - the fallacious and unfair claim to victimization and persecution. What gives with the siege mentality? Why are you speaking on behalf of the victims - real, imagined, or projected? A lot of this is vain, detached from reality, and politically exploitable to some very deplorable ends. At least earlier, someone was kind enough to explicitly state them.

Again: I'm not defending terrorists and extremists and they can go to whatever version of hell their beliefs dictate. What I don't want to live in is a society with an "us vs. them" mentality that starts painting people in broad [whatever]-phobic strokes.

And yes, to echo Steve, to say that to a member with nearly 10k posts and a history of being at least reasonable is a bit unfair and upsetting. I don't want to leave Subsim and I care a lot about the site and the community. I just really deplore what's being said here, and have every right to do so.

[Silent Steel]

Personally the more attacks are made by Muslim terrorist the less I am inclined to want any integration. I think I would vote for an 1800s style Indian reservation for Muslims in some remote barren area where everything about their community can be monitored and controlled. I guess this is what the Israelis had to do with the Palestinians.

You gotta be joking man. Or do you actually mean what you're saying?

The state Israel was created after WWII in 1947 after a resolution by the UN Nations General Assembly (resolution 181, 1947) supported by several western states. Right?

Many western countries as we know them today are acquired territory during wars, of course. Not in peacetime.

But, to create a state in the UN supported by some western countries... was that really wise? In peacetime.

If that happened to, let's say, the US and some of it's territory of today was given back to the native Americans, wouldn't that result in a conflict do you think?

Or, why don't the UN and it's buddies reconise the annexation of the Crimea by the Russians? In peacetime.
After all, Crimea was captured at war by the the Russian Empire in 1783 so it's been Russian for a considerable period of time.

You should do your history homework again.

I do hope you actually don't mean what you're saying. Or am I getting you wrong here?

I'd like to make clear that I mean that these unacceptable, cruel, shameful attacks being made today, carried out by criminals not supported by an absolute majority of the Muslim community, on free speech and innocent civilians can be justified.

Just expressing so called 'politically correct' opinions without thinking of the past won't make this world a better place.

[Cybermat47]

Personally the more attacks are made by Muslim terrorist the less I am inclined to want any integration. I think I would vote for an 1800s style Indian reservation for Muslims in some remote barren area where everything about their community can be monitored and controlled. I guess this is what the Israelis had to do with the Palestinians.

Surely that would just make more Muslims hate Western society, and therefore create more terrorists?

[Cybermat47]

I just saw some pictures from France, and realised something.

The Terrorists have done nothing but to make France an enemy of Islamic terrorist groups.

They really didn't think this through, did they? :har:

[Otto Harkaman]

I was trying to be funny, but I've learn now not to comment on this threads.

[Cybermat47]

I was trying to be funny, but I've learn now not to comment on this threads.

Oh. Well if that's the case, you have my apologies for losing my sense of humour :)

[Silent Steel]

I was trying to be funny, but I've learn now not to comment on this threads.


OK, good man.

Hope I didn't offend you. If I did - please accept my humble excuses.

[CCIP]

For my part, if I also misunderstood someone's intentions or came off like I was attacking your personal opinion - I also apologize. And particularly sorry if it came off like I was trying to label someone, definitely not what I was trying to do!

[CCIP]

You do realise that those 2000 killed in the latest massacre happen to be muslims.

As were at least 2 of those killed in Paris, including Ahmed Merabet, the policeman on duty whose execution-style killing was caught on camera outside the Charlie Hebdo office.

[Betonov]

As were at least 2 of those killed in Paris, including Ahmed Merabet, the policeman on duty whose execution-style killing was caught on camera outside the Charlie Hebdo office.

And the policewoman later on.

[Sailor Steve]

Did this person join neo Nazi protests against religious groups?:yep:
Can you produce evidence of this? If so, please do.

Does the long list of hate sites he regularly posts read like a whos who from Anders Breiviks loony manifesto(a crazy hate filled extremist mass murderer who he describes a sane and rational)?:yep:
Please cite chapter and verse. You repeatedly saying something doesn't make it so. If you can produce direct evidence then something can be done about it. If not then it's just talk.

Remember that the person you are defending has this ideology which he has repeatedly clearly stated that such abhorrent actions are perfectly acceptable and even desirable.:hmmm:
So you keep saying. I have read his same statements and am still not seeing what you are talking about. Are you actually trying to accomplish something or are you just having fun making trouble? If the former, please be more helpful. If the latter, please stop.

[Sailor Steve]

Already done many times.
Where? I've never seen it. You repeatedly say that, but you never actually show where it was done. This is why I always ask for links. I wonder why I never see them.

So when the forum owners reponse to posting terrorist supporting hate sites is, I thought n*****s was on the forum filter, is there any point?
when the forum owners respone is I thought you was a crazy 'liberal' but now I like your posts, is there any point?
You were calling people names and not providing links long before the incident you cite. If you would provide actual proof maybe you would see the action you say you desire. The onus is on you to back up your claims.

[Skybird]

Oh je, isses mal wieder so weit...

If only people would care to actually focus on what I said (and leave it in its embedding contexts), instead of trying to interpret something into it for which they can attack me, because they already take offence from knowing that I am against something.

The problem is not me or my determination. The problem is the indifference in many people, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, to recognize that the ideology they try to let appear as so harmless, since one and a half millenium has caused nothing but trouble for mankind, where ever it raised its its ugly head, causing stagnation, monoculturalism, intimidation, discrimination, persecution and war of attack. To say that this is not what Muhammad has preached, has caused to be pout down in writing, and has doine himself in his life, compares to rewarding Hitler the peace Nobel award. It means to totally and completely refusing reality. To turn a warlord and desert bandit into a holy and peace-loving saint. Attaturk, now almost forgotten in the new (or shall i say: old?) Turkey, did not call Muhammad a murderous desert bandit for no reason.

To still argue that all this is not true, means to sit in a locked, darkened room, with eyelids shut and tackered.

One can do like all this, sadly it is all too obvious that one can do that. When it becomes offending to the victims is here: when one nevertheless sheds crocodile tears about said victims while one actively defends the ideology that has caused and wanted their suffering. And that pisses me big time. Refusing to recognize reality, necessarily leads to intellectual problems, and these I may want to prefer to declare in these people, a case of cognitive dissonance also, or a kind of collective Stockholm syndrome.

The alternative would be much less polite: I would need to conclude that people defending the reasons and ideological basis (so open to be read and studied, btw) that made dead victims of once living people and made victims of their now mourning families and friends, are mean, man-hating, cynical and dastard.

These two things do not play well together: to express how concerned one feels and how sad it all is and how tragic for the victims, and hiding in a crowd that gives you the warmth of a hearthfire and doing symbolical things to feel gay - and at the same time, and before, and afterwards, helping to defend the ideological basis causing and motivating and demanding such barbaric deeds, helping it to get away with it, finding another hideout in politi8cal correctness and distorted tolerance once again. This I do not accept to happen, and that is why I challenge people over doing so. The ideology stands as it is. You can become a better being by ignoring its demands. But you do not become a better being by ignoring its nature - and let it rampaging in the world nevertheless. That only makes you an accomplice of crime. Confronting it, challenging it - that is what is to be done. Evasion is no option .

Such clearness is considered to be unpolite. In a time of following the mainstream and not daring to take any stands outside the collective's wanted thinking, when mandatory consensus is demanded even over the most absurd things, violating this rule raises anger.

I don't care.

I once united with other people over these issues, and we went as far as to the courts, and we won. So better nobody assumes I only opportunistically abuse the internet alone when criticising Islam. I mean it bitterly serious.

[Sailor Steve]

And do you wonder why I describe you as an habitual liar?
Name-calling is easy. Talk is cheap. Show us a link.

Yeah right, on a forum where a moderator posts links to white supremacist propaganda, gets called out for it by numerous people and absolutely nothing is done:haha:
Link, please?

BTW you do realise your second part of the post bears out what I say don't you.
Since I'm not even sure what you're talking about, not really.

You show you can remember, so why do you make the false claims yet again?
All you have to do is show a link.

[Oberon]

Not this again... :/\\!!

See you in a week Tribesman.

[Oberon]

People that aren't "needed" should learn to play nice lest they get a visit from Bockscar or Enola Gay. :up:

That's number two on the genocide list.
Stay classy people. :rock:

And that right there is the problem, the insistence on dividing everything into "us and them", the "good guys vs. bad guys", "black and white". I have no sympathy and a lot of anger at the terrorists. I despise those who support them and argue for them, and I have a lot of ideological concerns, even with their religion. But you can't start dehumanizing and you can't rely on emotional language and bright examples to make arguments that boil down to, well, what do they boil down to? All I've done is extended the logical conclusion of "othering" arguments and their sociopolitical implications. At the very least, those need to be addressed. And when they're stated out in the open, I think I rightly abhor them.

I'm not opposed to hunting down and neutralizing actual terrorists, and I applaud the French police for doing so. I'm all for critically questioning and satirically testing religion and everything else. I unequivocally support actual victims of terrorism, and believe me, I've more than enough personal experience with them.

There's a million logical and rhetorical fallacies in this argument, but the most prominent one is the one that I brought up a couple of days back in the "Stockhold Syndrome" thread - the fallacious and unfair claim to victimization and persecution. What gives with the siege mentality? Why are you speaking on behalf of the victims - real, imagined, or projected? A lot of this is vain, detached from reality, and politically exploitable to some very deplorable ends. At least earlier, someone was kind enough to explicitly state them.

Again: I'm not defending terrorists and extremists and they can go to whatever version of hell their beliefs dictate. What I don't want to live in is a society with an "us vs. them" mentality that starts painting people in broad [whatever]-phobic strokes.

And yes, to echo Steve, to say that to a member with nearly 10k posts and a history of being at least reasonable is a bit unfair and upsetting. I don't want to leave Subsim and I care a lot about the site and the community. I just really deplore what's being said here, and have every right to do so.

Well said, and I hope you don't leave, we've lost too many good people because of this, and I'd hate for you to join them.

[Schroeder]

I think this thread has run it's inevitable course. We only got name calling and hate over the last couple of pages and everybody has stated his opinion so I vote for locking the thing.

And for all people considering to leave: Think about with how many people you have a problem with here and with how many you get along just fine. I think it doesn't matter on which side of the spectrum you are but you'll see that you usually have a lot more people you get along with than you have people who you can't stand. So don't let yourself be pushed out over a few guys you don't like in a topic that was set to self destruction from the get go.

[MH]

And that right there is the problem, the insistence on dividing everything into "us and them", the "good guys vs. bad guys", "black and white".
No it is about diminishing certain shades really....that is also used for political reasons.

Someone mentioned Palestinian reservations...the casino is closed sorry...

Not this again... :/\\!!

See you in a week Tribesman I don't think he should be banned but he is being real dick nevertheless...lol

[Oberon]

I think this thread has run it's inevitable course. We only got name calling and hate over the last couple of pages and everybody has stated his opinion so I vote for locking the thing.

And for all people considering to leave: Think about with how many people you have a problem here and with how many you get along just fine. I think it doesn't matter on which side of the spectrum you are but you'll see that you usually have a lot more people you get along with than you have people who you can't stand. So don't let yourself be pushed out over a few guys you don't like in a topic that was set to self destruction from the get go.

When I suggest this I get accused of pushing for censorship! :O:


I don't think he should be banned but he is being real dick nevertheless...lol

He'll be brigged for a week after the tail-chasing has finished, it's what usually happens.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm not exactly surprised.

Split-tongued? Hardly. I've been perfectly clear that I find your ideas execrable, loathsome and worthy of nothing but derision and abuse. If I've been less then forthright in this regard please let me know and I'd be happy to elaborate.

I can do so with only the rubbish you've posted today. It's not difficult.

By the way, any evidence you have of me being split-tongued would be appreciated. Since it's so obvious to you it shouldn't be hard to find. Either back it up or keep your mouth shut.

Don't even consider taking this line of argument with me again.

Don't even consider bringing the idea of "basic behaviour" to your side of this argument.

It doesn't suit you. You wouldn't like it.

I repeat your words back to you. You think those who supported Charlie Hebdo after the massacre deserve nothing but pain and death. I say get that off these boards. There are plenty of places online where these views will be welcomed with open arms. I'd point you to them but I like these shoes.

Don't hide your ideas from criticism behind forum rules. You don't believe in human decency so...

Do not wish pain and misery upon good people because they don't share your opinions. Perhaps I'm asking too much. Time may tell. It may not.

That's a curious way of looking at things. The boards can handle a little conflict.

What in God's name makes you think I want a PM from you. You said these things on the forum, you get called out on it on the forum. I have no interest in making this less public.

The feeling is mutual regarding a private message. Deletion upon arrival is the policy for people like you.

Tribesman has absolutely nothing to do with this.

I'm sick of your hatred and fascism clogging up a place that I actually like. There are plenty of forums that would love to have you. Go there and say these things. You might find someone who agrees with you, I hate to say it.


Get it off my screen.

Don't ask for the protection of the rules of civilised interaction when you are fundamentally uncivilised. It doesn't suit you and you wouldn't like it.


That's classy.

Go. Away.

edit - words in the wrong order.Happens to the best of us.

Damn, if he upsets you this much, just put him on ignore, Tchocky. That's a useful tool, use it it

[MH]

Unless of course its keelhauled , which would be quite funny in a topic about an assault by people "offended" by freedom of speech:03:



It is more of how you say what ever you say , or actually.... how you not say anything really.
When I read your post it seems that you are more focused on pissing others than actually saying something of value...and you like it.
Very disappointing....too bad it is not other way around.
Have fun anyway...mr freedom of speech.:03:

Cheers.

[Oberon]

After which I will write exactly the same thing the next time the "its the muslims" topic comes up, for no other reason than the content of the posts in question are accurate and such despicable views should always be countered and shown for what they are

Unless of course its keelhauled , which would be quite funny in a topic about an assault by people "offended" by freedom of speech:03:

The thing is though, Tribesman, you're your own worst enemy, really.

Think about it this way, I've spent the past week in the local county court, three days of which was spent in a case involving a suspected drug dealer. It was not up to the defence to prove the man innocent, but to the prosecution to prove him guilty, the presumption of innocence as it is legally known as. As such, the prosecution called two people to the stand and brought forward evidence to the jury so that we may judge whether he is innocent or guilty, and likewise the defence brought forward the defendant himself so that the same process can be undertaken.
If the prosecution had turned to the jury and said "Well, go and look for the evidence yourself" the case, and the prosecution would have been dismissed.
Likewise, if you are writing an essay for an academic institution and you quote from a book or another essay, you are asked to provide a source for this quote in the bibliography or reference section at the rear of the paper. If you were to simply write in that section "Go and look for it yourself" then you would likely receive a lot of red ink and a stern lecture from whoever you're writing the essay for.
Using the search function in Subsim isn't that hard, for example you referred to:

So when the forum owners reponse to posting terrorist supporting hate sites is, I thought n*****s was on the forum filter, is there any point?

So, you go into the search function and do this:

http://i.imgur.com/hl0VGq2.jpg

which gives you this:

http://i.imgur.com/Anz4TfJ.jpg

And then when you click on the one you want, you can just click on the post number and then copy and paste the link directly into your post, like this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2243157&postcount=16

It really is not that difficult, and when you are the first to pull apart the links provided by other people and yet so reluctant to provide them yourself, it does rather create an air of hypocrisy.
So, surely it's better to provide links to your claims, using the search function, or even google if you wish, and add that extra bit of legitimacy and authenticity to your post rather than just mocking the other poster for not searching for it themselves.

[Silent Steel]

It's sad to see what this topic has come to.

Seems like it could be useful to say it again;
'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it'


Onkel Neal - shut this down, please.

[Oberon]

Well that's handy, while checking there was plenty of materials available relating to a certain someones views on Kosher in general and in Europe in particular I came across this good post.

I believe that is the basis of bigotry and prejudice.

Characterizing the many by observation of the few is not only statistically illogical but morally repugnant.

It sort of reminds me of Tarjaks statements before he left the forum

Who said that and where? :hmmm:

[Skybird]

I'm currently sitting here and typing with a friend on brief visit by my side. I told him of the recent clash I had in this forum, and showed him the past couple of pages, and while he read, I was in the kitchen preparing some tea and coffee.

And what he said afterwards, is this: "Many of those guys don't argue with you to have an analytical examination over this ideology. They argue with you because they want to prevent any critical examination of that ideology. That's why they put things in your mouth and ignore everything you point out if they do not like it."

I must agree, considering the tactics used here.

Anyhow, we now will have a good time in Assetto Corsa. You guys could give me a call when the ideology of peace has motivated another strike somehwere, somehow.

BTW: His name is Elyar. If now you conclude by the sound of that name that he is Iranian (and former Muslim), you are right. :D And if you think that I ridicule precious Western or Muslim sentiments on Islam, then you should invite him for a beer or two one evening and have a talk with him over these things. After that you will have fallen out of your belief in life itself, I tell you. :lol:

[Schroeder]

When I suggest this I get accused of pushing for censorship! :O:

But you're a softy lefty pinko commie Eurogirl so that's normal.:O:

[Oberon]

But this isn't a court of law.

But in a way, it is, when you are trying to make a point against someone or something, if you don't properly back that point up then you don't have any substance to your argument. Now you can take a quote from someone, but if you don't specifically say WHO that someone is, then it's pretty pointless, likewise if you don't take that quote in its context then, again, it undermines the point you're trying to make. I mean, I can take a quote from you, put it out of context and try and argue that you have the same viewpoint as Skybird, when in fact, the quote is from you stating what you believe to be Skybirds viewpoint.
Again, it undermines your point when you take apart other peoples links in detail and yet refuse to cite your own. It makes you look hypocritical.

[Oberon]

But you're a softy lefty pinko commie Eurogirl so that's normal.:O:

Gonna tell my Mum on you.... :wah::wah: :O:

[Rockstar]

I think your post was quite good right up until that last sentiment. You are also addressing a member who did nothing more than voice his own opinion. I agree with your opinion more than his in this case, but there is still no reason for that kind of comment.


Im sorry, to you, CCIP and the community here. please accept my most humble apology.

[Sailor Steve]

Always. I've apologized to so many people so many times it would be wrong of me to do otherwise to someone else. As someone once said to me, it shows real class. It also helps us get to know one another, which to me is the real reason we're here. :sunny:

[nikimcbee]

Im sorry, to you, CCIP and the community here. please accept my most humble apology.

:salute:

[Silent Steel]

Always. I've apologized to so many people so many times it would be wrong of me to do otherwise to someone else. As someone once said to me, it shows real class. It also helps us get to know one another, which to me is the real reason we're here. :sunny:

:up: :salute:

[Onkel Neal]

The thing is though, Tribesman, you're your own worst enemy, really.

Think about it this way, I've spent the past week in the local county court, three days of which was spent in a case involving a suspected drug dealer. It was not up to the defence to prove the man innocent, but to the prosecution to prove him guilty, the presumption of innocence as it is legally known as. As such, the prosecution called two people to the stand and brought forward evidence to the jury so that we may judge whether he is innocent or guilty, and likewise the defence brought forward the defendant himself so that the same process can be undertaken.
If the prosecution had turned to the jury and said "Well, go and look for the evidence yourself" the case, and the prosecution would have been dismissed.
Likewise, if you are writing an essay for an academic institution and you quote from a book or another essay, you are asked to provide a source for this quote in the bibliography or reference section at the rear of the paper. If you were to simply write in that section "Go and look for it yourself" then you would likely receive a lot of red ink and a stern lecture from whoever you're writing the essay for.
Using the search function in Subsim isn't that hard, for example you referred to:



So, you go into the search function and do this:

http://i.imgur.com/hl0VGq2.jpg

which gives you this:

http://i.imgur.com/Anz4TfJ.jpg

And then when you click on the one you want, you can just click on the post number and then copy and paste the link directly into your post, like this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2243157&postcount=16

It really is not that difficult, and when you are the first to pull apart the links provided by other people and yet so reluctant to provide them yourself, it does rather create an air of hypocrisy.
So, surely it's better to provide links to your claims, using the search function, or even google if you wish, and add that extra bit of legitimacy and authenticity to your post rather than just mocking the other poster for not searching for it themselves.



Uh, ok, for the record, the first link is me replying to someone... :cool:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1092998#post1092998

[Oberon]

Uh, ok, for the record, the first link is me replying to someone... :cool:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1092998#post1092998

Exactly, this is what I mean about taking things out of context. :salute:

[mapuc]

Respect this is what it's all about

I respect Skybirds standpoint

I respect Tribesmans standpoint

I respect the other debaters standpoint

This is not necessary the same as I should have the same standpoint as they have.

And try not to convinced a debater to change his or her mind, debate with this person or just ignore him or her.


Just my thought

Markus

[em2nought]

That's number two on the genocide list.
Stay classy people. :rock:

I didn't call for genocide, just winning. We are the ones that can decide if we win or lose. I'd rather win, if we're not in it to win it what are we doing involved in the first place. Hopefully not just lining someones pockets. :hmm2:

[Oberon]

I didn't call for genocide, just winning. We are the ones that can decide if we win or lose. I'd rather win, if we're not in it to win it what are we doing involved in the first place. Hopefully not just lining someones pockets. :hmm2:

No, you said:

People that aren't "needed" should learn to play nice lest they get a visit from Bockscar or Enola Gay.

Which calls for a nuclear attack on the nation who is not playing 'nice'. So, taking your analogy, let's drop a 'Fat man' on Mosul, which will kill an estimated 95,000 people, men, women, children, the young and the old.
And you really think that will make Muslim extremists go "Oh...I guess I'd better not attack the Westerners anymore", these are not people guided by logic, this is not the Empire of Japan, there is no logical leadership, no rational Emperor. You could nuke every major city in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all you would accomplish is to make the United States even more hated than North Korea, and increase the recruitment rate for radical Islam by about 1000%.

Great Success! :dead:

[Rockstar]

And that right there is the problem, the insistence on dividing everything into "us and them", the "good guys vs. bad guys", "black and white". I have no sympathy and a lot of anger at the terrorists. I despise those who support them and argue for them, and I have a lot of ideological concerns, even with their religion. But you can't start dehumanizing and you can't rely on emotional language and bright examples to make arguments that boil down to, well, what do they boil down to? All I've done is extended the logical conclusion of "othering" arguments and their sociopolitical implications. At the very least, those need to be addressed. And when they're stated out in the open, I think I rightly abhor them.

I'm not opposed to hunting down and neutralizing actual terrorists, and I applaud the French police for doing so. I'm all for critically questioning and satirically testing religion and everything else. I unequivocally support actual victims of terrorism, and believe me, I've more than enough personal experience with them.

Good, I agree with you 100% I dont much like what is going on either.

There's a million logical and rhetorical fallacies in this argument, but the most prominent one is the one that I brought up a couple of days back in the "Stockhold Syndrome" thread - the fallacious and unfair claim to victimization and persecution. What gives with the siege mentality? Why are you speaking on behalf of the victims - real, imagined, or projected? A lot of this is vain, detached from reality, and politically exploitable to some very deplorable ends. At least earlier, someone was kind enough to explicitly state them.

Let me ask do you think I was claiming to be a victim or somehow implying we can all now claim to be victims? I'll admit an arguement could be made that I did not provide enough of my own personal thoughts as to why I did that, questions could have been asked, answers easily given. To be honest I simply posted it as food for thought, they were excerpts from several listed sources that indicated the Syndrome may not be linked soley to people in active hostage situations. But may also be a cause why some do nothing in other types of stressful events, that was my take on it. I never expected anyone would leap right in fangs out hair on fire and start diagnosing mental illness from behind a computer screen and quoting DSM Manual.

Again: I'm not defending terrorists and extremists and they can go to whatever version of hell their beliefs dictate. What I don't want to live in is a society with an "us vs. them" mentality that starts painting people in broad [whatever]-phobic strokes.

I never said you were defending anyone, I mentioned you were angry though. But arent we all.

And yes, to echo Steve, to say that to a member with nearly 10k posts and a history of being at least reasonable is a bit unfair and upsetting. I don't want to leave Subsim and I care a lot about the site and the community. I just really deplore what's being said here, and have every right to do so.

Well, to that I again say I apologize for my previous statement. I dont want you to go anywhere either.

[mapuc]

I say it's OK to drop the bomb...the day they have developed it, so it only kills these brain dead radical people, whether it's religious or political.

.....Not before.

Markus

[em2nought]

No, you said:



Which calls for a nuclear attack on the nation who is not playing 'nice'. So, taking your analogy, let's drop a 'Fat man' on Mosul, which will kill an estimated 95,000 people, men, women, children, the young and the old.
And you really think that will make Muslim extremists go "Oh...I guess I'd better not attack the Westerners anymore", these are not people guided by logic, this is not the Empire of Japan, there is no logical leadership, no rational Emperor. You could nuke every major city in Afghanistan and Iraq, and all you would accomplish is to make the United States even more hated than North Korea, and increase the recruitment rate for radical Islam by about 1000%.

Great Success! :dead:

So, you're saying there is no way to beat them unless we get rid of "all" of them? I don't buy that. It might take more than two, but at some number they're going to rethink their position. I'd probably give them advanced warning dropping cartoon leaflets of what's coming if that softens your opinion of me. :hmm2:

[Schroeder]

I say it's OK to drop the bomb...the day they have developed it, so it only kills these brain dead radical people, whether it's religious or political.

.....Not before.

Markus
On whom? Do you want to wipe out entire cities because their idiot leaders developed something they were not supposed to have? They've got to be stopped before that (knowledge would leak before that thing was actually build anyway so it would be too late) and without nuking someone. Nukes are the very last resort and in my opinion unsuitable to deal with radicals. Too much fallout, too much collateral damage.

[mapuc]

On whom? Do you want to wipe out entire cities because their idiot leaders developed something they were not supposed to have? They've got to be stopped before that (knowledge would leak before that thing was actually build anyway so it would be too late) and without nuking someone. Nukes are the very last resort and in my opinion unsuitable to deal with radicals. Too much fallout, too much collateral damage.

Either you have misunderstood me or I have not explain it clearly enough

Some one said we should drop the bomb thereby killing thousands of innocent people. I say that we should FIRST drop the bomb the DAY it ONLY kills these braind dead radical terrorist whether it's religious or political terrorist.

I'm at no point interested in killing innocent muslim children, women or men.

Markus

[Stealhead]

I say it's OK to drop the bomb...the day they have developed it, so it only kills these brain dead radical people, whether it's religious or political.

.....Not before.

Markus
Like a neutron bomb only this one kills idiots. You could call it idiot-tonic bomb. Could be rather dangerous come to think of it.

You could say "listen here buddy you keep it up and I'll kill every last one of your idiots." Then the response would be "well I doubt that you actually developed such a weapon surely a test dropping would have killed most of your population." The response to that would be "of course you idiot that's the idea it is a dooms day weapon."

[Skybird]

Wowh - I leave the house for just a few hours, and you guys already are at atomic and neutron bombs once again.!

Since we are at it - Syria has been found to already go once again after the nuclear bomb.

LINK (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/evidence-points-to-syria-still-working-on-a-nuclear-weapon-a-1012209.html).

You have to give it to Assad - he has his priorities, no matter whether there is a civil war or IS.

And Hezbollah is aboard as well, providing military guarding to the facility. Good morning Hezbollah - long time no see!

Back to the mainprogram.

[August]

So what such a "smart bomb" might look like?

My guess, many tiny autonomous drones that look and act like a fly carrying a payload of poison. Each one capable observing and distinguishing enemy combatants from non combatants, able to conceal itself and stay dormant for long periods of time and strike simultaneously either by remote command or by pre-programmed timer or maybe even upon the initiation of other events.

How many years away is such technology do you figure?

[Schroeder]

@Mapuc
Sorry, I misunderstood your post.:salute:

[Skybird]

And news from germany:


"As representatives of Western values and toleraance
we humbly apologize for our freedom of press and
freedom of speech and mind."
"And your sense of humour -
who apologises for your sense of humour?"

http://www.ralf-koenig.com/typo3temp/pics/16f024a6fa.jpg

The creator of this cartoon, Ralf König, is one of Germany's leading cartoonists. He has now withdrawn this cartoon from an exhibition on Facebook, saying that he "might have gone one step too far", and worried by the chance of having enraged fanatics. He said: "Das muss aussehen wie Schwanz einziehen und Rückzieher, und ist es letztlich ja auch. Ich bin nicht stolz darauf, aber auch nicht interessiert, jetzt von den Medien nach vorne geschoben zu werden, da habe ich seinerzeit im Zusammenhang mit dem Karikaturenstreit um Jyllands Posten bereits ungute Erfahrungen gemacht.“ ("This must look like showing the white feather, and falling back, and in the end that is true, yes. I am not proud of it, but I am also not interested in being pushed forward by the media once again, like back then in context with the cartoons conflict by the Jyllands Poisten, that were pretty bad experiences.")

Na bitte. Funktioniert doch.

Some weeks ago, Dietrich Nuhr has been sued over charges of hate-speech by a Muslim fundamentalist for "repeatedly offending Islam". Dietrich Nuhr is one of the very best maybe currently even the best stage-satirist in germany. He is very intelligent and witty in his word games, and I do not know how often he has send me into bursting laughter. His strikes against Islam were anhythign but racist, but targetted the ideological fundament at the basis of Islam, and in a very stylish and well-toned manner. He has completely rejected to follow his persecutoir'S demands, and even went into charging mode, attacking his backwardly simplemindedness and fanatism in his unique intelligent witty way of using words and sentences as weapons. He did not waver once second, held his shows in huge - now sold-out :D - theatres and townhalls, gave interviews in which he took a resolute stand against the petrified mindset of Islam, and accepted not even the mildest hint for maybe considering to accept compromise. He won the well-deserved fruits for his determination, the court refused permission to bring the charges to trial.

That's the fighting spirit, Herr König. Else you have no right to call yourself a satirist anymore. Or take the comment that Penguin quoted, the chief editor of German satire magazine Titanic, he listed it some pages earlier in this thread: "A bloodbath like at Charlie could not happen with us. We are only six editors." - Brilliant!

BTW, there now also is a campaign running, "jesuisjeuf" - I am Jewish. Due to the Jewish supermarket terror attack, killing four. For some reasons so far that campaign does not attract as much sympathy and attention like jesuischarlie. Maybe because appeasers of Islam often tend to be more or less antisemitic, too, may it be for opportunism or for conviction.

[Oberon]

So, you're saying there is no way to beat them unless we get rid of "all" of them? I don't buy that. It might take more than two, but at some number they're going to rethink their position. I'd probably give them advanced warning dropping cartoon leaflets of what's coming if that softens your opinion of me. :hmm2:

There is a way to beat them, but not in ten years, not even in fifty, the way to beat them will involve over a century (maybe two) of vigilance, sacrifice, and bloodshed. It's a war of attrition, and remember, as attrition wars go, our losses have been very light indeed, compared to the losses the enemy have taken. The key is to starve their supply of fresh recruits, cut off their support base, turn their own people against them, and slowly they will die away, not permanently, because you can't get rid of hate or fear, but they will not pose as significant a threat as they do now.

There is no magic button solution, there is no quick exit or blitzkrieg strategy, any attempt to take them will just backfire.
We're in this for the long haul, and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. People on both sides are going to do some stupid things, evil things, and we're going to see both extremes of humanity displayed before us.

[Oberon]

I say it's OK to drop the bomb...the day they have developed it, so it only kills these brain dead radical people, whether it's religious or political.

.....Not before.

Markus

Who knows, one day they might develop such a biological agent that dulls the brain into obedience, overnight it could put the entire Middle East into the submission of whoever dropped it.
Would that be a good thing, though? :hmmm: :03:

[Skybird]

There is a way to beat them, but not in ten years, not even in fifty, the way to beat them will involve over a century (maybe two) of vigilance, sacrifice, and bloodshed. It's a war of attrition, and remember, as attrition wars go, our losses have been very light indeed, compared to the losses the enemy have taken. The key is to starve their supply of fresh recruits, cut off their support base, turn their own people against them, and slowly they will die away, not permanently, because you can't get rid of hate or fear, but they will not pose as significant a threat as they do now.

One again I remind of the youthbulge theory, claiming that societies/cultures are the more aggressive the higher the surplus in young males is in the population's age structure. Heihnsoh, for whose writings and comments of contemporary politics I have high respect, got plenty of fire for it, because he does not mind political correctness and Europhilia, but trusts in the convicing power of statistically correct established empiry - and you cannot argue with his numbers. For demographic reasons, Muslim societies will be driven by an extreme surplus by young males for another 50 years from now on. Not before then their relative share in their societies will have dropped so much that their influence and interest and power to drive things aggressively for expansion will have shrunk so much that their society as a whole will fall to rest once again, and lack the drive to push for offensive conquest. And then the problems of overaging society structures that Japan and the West already are hampered by, will hit them as well.

Until then, we will need to live and deal with ongoing Islamic expansion and aggressive moves.

[Betonov]

Sky, you forgot one thing.

The west will reach a breaking point. People are going to scared enough to start voting in en masse far right wingers. Laws will be passed to close the borders, up the internal surveillance, immigration laws are going to get discriminatory and deportations an everyday occurance. And it wont stop with radicals. First your average Ahmed, including your Iranian friend, then eastern europeans, then anyone not fitting into their national ideas.

Europe is going to be cleansed of islam, open borders and a free flow of ideas.
We're going back to the old closed system of tribes we experienced for the entire history exempt last 60 years and to tell you the truth, I rather have a constant threat of a radical blowing me up than the prison Europe is destined to become if we let fear of something, that claimed the lives of faaaaaaaar less people than the European wars we were once so good at, dictate our lives.
50 muslims next door are better than one far right winger in the capital.

[Schroeder]

Sky, you forgot one thing.

The west will reach a breaking point. People are going to scared enough to start voting in en masse far right wingers. Laws will be passed to close the borders, up the internal surveillance, immigration laws are going to get discriminatory and deportations an everyday occurance. And it wont stop with radicals. First your average Ahmed, including your Iranian friend, then eastern europeans, then anyone not fitting into their national ideas.

Europe is going to be cleansed of islam, open borders and a free flow of ideas.
We're going back to the old closed system of tribes we experienced for the entire history exempt last 60 years and to tell you the truth, I rather have a constant threat of a radical blowing me up than the prison Europe is destined to become if we let fear of something, that claimed the lives of faaaaaaaar less people than the European wars we were once so good at, dictate our lives.
50 muslims next door are better than one far right winger in the capital.
And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

[Oberon]

The problem is, moderate solutions take longer to implement, they take longer to have results, people in todays society want results yesterday. :dead:

[Dan D]

One again I remind of the youthbulge theory, claiming that societies/cultures are the more aggressive the higher the surplus in young males is in the population's age structure. Heihnsoh, for whose writings and comments of contemporary politics I have high respect, got plenty of fire for it, because he does not mind political correctness and Europhilia, but trusts in the convicing power of statistically correct established empiry - and you cannot argue with his numbers. For demographic reasons, Muslim societies will be driven by an extreme surplus by young males for another 50 years from now on. Not before then their relative share in their societies will have dropped so much that their influence and interest and power to drive things aggressively for expansion will have shrunk so much that their society as a whole will fall to rest once again, and lack the drive to push for offensive conquest. And then the problems of overaging society structures that Japan and the West already are hampered by, will hit them as well.

Until then, we will need to live and deal with ongoing Islamic expansion and aggressive moves.
Have you solved your issues with your neighbour by now, Otto?
Let me guees, you have sunk him in the sewage pit of your own.

[Onkel Neal]

So, you're saying there is no way to beat them unless we get rid of "all" of them? I don't buy that. It might take more than two, but at some number they're going to rethink their position. I'd probably give them advanced warning dropping cartoon leaflets of what's coming if that softens your opinion of me. :hmm2:

Look, em2, I know where you're coming from, nuking the enemy sounds great, but it's important to realize that millions of Muslims want NO part of this jihad crap, in fact, they are being killed by the islamic extremists in greater numbers than westerners. Try to picture a Muslim man in the park, with his daughter playing on a swing, and they look up to see your nuclear bomb. Is that necessary to kill a few thousand crazies spread out all over the world? The last time we used nukes we were at war with an entire nation, millions of enemy combatants. This is not the same situation.

If the current struggle escalates to anything near the level and Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany, don't worry, we will bring the big toys.


On whom? Do you want to wipe out entire cities because their idiot leaders developed something they were not supposed to have? They've got to be stopped before that (knowledge would leak before that thing was actually build anyway so it would be too late) and without nuking someone. Nukes are the very last resort and in my opinion unsuitable to deal with radicals. Too much fallout, too much collateral damage.

Exactly, a last resort, for the proper situation. We don't want millions of people as collateral damage.

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

I don't know everything about France's National Front party, but I don't think they are Nazis. A strong anti-immigrant stance does not equate to fascism.

[Betonov]

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

Exactly. Sky may be correct, we are to soft on them. But not on the religion but known troublemakers. Sending them back to plot under rocks in Syria is going to lower terrorist attack chances and perhaps not give a rally point to some hotheads still sitting on the fence.

But our brave politicians, that can't differentiate their own backside from their empty heads, can't enact laws that will lower that threat and raise economic standards to everyone (radicalism is lower when people are spoiled silly), all the while Adolf II & co. has an agenda and a plan and all they need is a population scared stupid to vote them in.

And then by-by good old times when our biggest fear was something with a less chance of killing us than a gas leak

[Skybird]

And that is the exact problem. There is no moderate force trying to do something about the problem (perceived or real) so people are turning towards Nazis. They only want protection from Islam but will get the whole package of totalitarian fascist parties with all the bells and whistles.

In Germany, and Europe, since decades migration policy has been made against what the people wanted by majority.

The gains of more right-leanign factions recently in Europe, are a result of that. People see that the establishement does nto act on their behalf. So they try other options. Thesd eothe roptions may be ratters, or reasonable people, but what makes them attrative to these moiddle grounds of society is that they are not the established poltical caste and its plots.

In Germany, there have recently formed up two such groups. The Euro-criticla party of AfD, Alternative für Deutschland. Founded by an economis prfessor against the Euro madness, while at the same time swearing to be loyal to a EU-dominated Europe (which is a contradiction, imo, and thus the AfD wa snot consdered by me for longer than just a week as a project for which I maybe would enagge myself. The party meanwhile has allowed to attract a far greater diversity of opinions that can be welcomed by the AfD: especially apparent rightwing extremist, some white supremacists, and a whole gang of neurotic narcissists have hijacked the party, it now is a kiondergarden where everybody seems to fight against verybody, the former founder is in danger to be pushed out of power and influence, and the only man of name and competence engaging himself for the AfD, the former head of the German Industrie-und Handwerkskammer, Olaf Henkel, almost has resigned and given up, regretting that he ever took the step to jpoin the party. A bitter fight for power is paralysing it all. I expect not much of the AfD.

The other movement forming up is called Pegida (dont ask me, I never cared to find out what that means). Originally it was a movement that took a front against the islmaization hijacking more and more freedom and tolerance in Germany, and the relkated poltical submission and correctness. But again, it also has been infiltrated and infested apparently by Nazis, rightwingers and according extremesits. Pegida has may opinion faces, it seems, some are Nazi, some are as argument- and ifnormaiton focussed anti-Islamic like I am myxself. But fopr peope like me, Pegida again canot be an option, due to its inability to fight its growing inflitration by Nazis, and I take no prisoners, when it comers no Nazis.

At the same time, the number of racist attacks by Arabs and Muslims against Jews is rising, like in many other European co9utnries, too, while at the same time the icnidents of violence against "Muslim obkjects"n namloes mosques, also is growing, for the most not committed by Nazis, but "ordinary" Islam-critical people who feel not being taken serious by established politics.

As one commentator some days ago wrote in the German press in reply to some b astard of an estalbioshed career-parasite from the poltical establishment who called of people in Pegida a "disease": Pegida is not the disease, Pegidsa is just the symptom. The symptom of an arrogant, doisconnected and absolutistically acting political caste that for years and decades now thinks it must only bribe the mob for elections, and in the three years in between can do what it wants in complete ignorance of people's will.

The treaties for bringing Turkish guest workers to Germany that were signed in the middle of last century, where refused to be signed by the German coalition government of back then, originally. The - formally socialist!!! - minister for economy back then said that the Islamic culture and the canon of values in the West would be absolutely incompatible. Wowh! Today he would be called a Nazi, if not something worse. America however had other plans, it wanted to bind Turkey deeper into NATO, it wanted to stage new weapons in Turkey, and for that theTurks demanded a price: access to the European labor market so that they would have a relief valve for the pandemic poverty harassing its huge population in extremelyx poor Anatolia. The Americans started to lobby for Turkish guest worker treaties, and finally more or less openly blackmailed the German government. The chancellor of that time also was of the opinion that economcs should not be run by the rules of economics, but should be seen as a tool of running foreign politics, an old conflict that already started in the bitter antipathy between Adenauer and Ludwig Erhard (the latter being one of the very rare modern German politics for whom I have a certain amount of respect), who also held totally different views over this issue. Finally, the ministry for economics and labour that had the responsibility for the negotiations with Turkey, was thrown out of the deal-making, to bypass its resistence, and the whole issue was been given to the foreign ministry, that then enforced the signing of the according treaties.

That treaty always had included a passage, from beginning on, about a timely limitation of guest workers' stay in germany, I think a maximum of 8 or 10 years - then they would had to go back. Any many others from Greece, Italy namely indeed left, those few who stayed nevertheless, integrated very well, and mostly successfully. The treaty with Turkey also said a following of their families to germany orginally was not planned, in fact the treaty explicitly forbid that.

We know today what had come of all that. the treaty was like so many others: less worth than some leafs of toilet paper, used. And when seeing how easily politicians lie and forge laws and treaties, bend and erode them, for example regarding the Euro union, maybe this should not have been a surprise.

Point is: migration poltics in Germany, and I claim: in most other European countries as well, always have been just a big social engineering experiment, demanded by an elitist minority that stayed to live in its villas far away from the foreigner's slums, and imposed against the will of the majority of the ordinary people.

Americans do not understand this, usually, and probably even cannot understand this. Their nation was build not on the grounds of aleady long existing ethnic and national identiteis that had grown over centuries, even over a millenia, but the US is a nation thrown together by foreigners from just many different places, with no shared sense of identity - the American idnetity of the modern era just had to be created, it diod not grow on the basis of a fomrer existing idnetity (because that one - that of the red man - was almost wiped out). For many Americans, why their way of handling these things in t he US does not work well in Europe, is completely beyond their horizon. And I do not even blame them for it, they cannot understand it, for their nation lacks the needed historical identity-related precondition to enable them to understand that. What would be important, however, is that the nevertheless accept that things do tick differently in other parts of the world, and Europe and America run by different cultural preconditions for sure. What works in America, must not - and often does not! - work in Europe, and the other way around.

---

In the end, it is about this: people over here will grow their tolerance for growing extremism and hostility against foreigner, because their politicians fail them and betray them. I do not hide that this is even true for myself. What can happen to you in bitching and witch-hunting if you violate the official consensus in politically correct opinions, I have experienced often myself in this forum, but in real life as well. I have given up the expectation that any change in political attitude towards Islam with means of peaceful debate in a context of politics an d society, can still be achieved. It is no longer a competition of arguments: it is about resisting or not to a dogmatically waged effort to enforce the continuation of a sociological pet-experiment by mentioned elitist minorities against the legitimate interest of the majority, like the Euro disaster also will be followed until the very last bullet has been fired, and even then the responsibility for the fall will be denied. Me personally, I would decide on a case by case basis whether I would help and assist a Muslim person or family in case they would need help - it would depend on the impression I have of them regarding their integration willingness, and nqwhether they are indeed Muslim (="Koranic"), or not. Koran-swingers and devout Muslims I avoid at all cost, like I also avoid fundamentalist of other religions. I do not move a single finger to assist their interests, claims, assumed rights, or whatever. I don'T want them here, and I do not do anything to help their stay.

And I have been pushed far enough by now that in case of violence against mosques and Muslim culture centres (nightly burnings for example) I would refuse to give any help at all. I do not want Islam in my home place, I am against this ideology, obviously. And I refuse to assist the state enforcing a policy that I oppose, a policy of ongoing, non-discriminating Muslim mass migration into my home country, where the existing Muslim parallel society already gives us enormous problems and has pushed several conflict levels close to breaking points.

For Islamic integration has failed on grande scale in the West. In Sweden. In England. In the Netherlands. In France. In Germany. Everyhwere. It has failed. Or to be closer to the truth: it is an unfolding disaster that changes the faces of our home countries for the worse.

As usual my explcit hint that I am not against migration in general, and that I do not claim we have problems with all migrants. I explicitly say: we have problems with Islamic migration, and while most migrant groups do not give us any trouble and integrate themselves well, time and again we find Muslim migrants to cause us troubles time and again, and their willingness to integrate is significantly smaller, in parts of their population non-existent, than it is the case with other migrant groups. This and nothing else I say, so everybody, keep that exact explanation on your mind. Anyone thinking he must once again stupidily generalise and claim "Skybird hates all migrants in general", is an #*&. I'm so sick and tired of people not taking care to look closely to the details and contexts of what I say, instead putting their own fiction into my mouth. I'm so very sick and tired of it.

[Oberon]

And I have been pushed far enough by now that in case of violence against mosques and Muslim culture centres (nightly burnings for example) I would refuse to give any help at all. I do not want Islam in my home place, I am against this ideology, obviously.

:hmmm:

“If only one country, for whatever reason, tolerates a Muslim family in it, that family will become the germ center for fresh sedition. If one little Muslim boy survives without any Islamic education, with no mosque and no Islamic school, it [Islam] is in his soul. Even if there had never been a mosque or an Islamic school or an Qu'ran, the Muslim spirit would still exist and exert its influence. It has been there from the beginning and there is no Muslim, not a single one, who does not personify it.”

[Skybird]

Exactly. Sky may be correct, we are to soft on them. But not on the religion but known troublemakers.

The known troublemakers have one thing in common that you and so many people simply prefer to ignore. They all confess and link their motivation to that one and the same religion of theirs. That ideology you cannot comfortably delete from your picture of things, and then think you still have a complete image of the Why-What-Where. You have deleted the most important detail from it. What remains, is no description of reality, but your own fiction.

Just opportunistically deleting any barbary in Muslim ideology and scripture, and then claiming Islam only is what is left after that well-meant cleansing, does not compute, obviously. the barbaric parts in it are parts of it - and the one that has driven Islam around the glove, mostly in a violent drive, more than n anything else. There is literally no major country or place where it was voluntarily embraced, always violence or intimidation, blackmailing or threatened or executed war played a role. And now count how many cultures have seized to exist after they ran into Islam, or Islam ran over them. And count how any religious war have been started by Christian factions against others or against themselves, and how many have been started by islamic factions against others or against themselves. No other religion is responsible for so many civil wars and religious wars against others, like Islam. It leads these statistics by huge margins.I said it so often: its a warrior's and conqueror's ideology. Muhammad was no man of peace, his life proves it. He was a bandit, a warlord, a tyrant and murderer. What kind of religion do you expect to come from such a man?

A German essay on the German way of debating islam - by rejecting the truth about it if it is not wanted:Hit the translate button:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fboess.welt.de%2F2015%2F01%2F07%2Fde utsche-streitkultur-pegida-und-der-islam%2F&edit-text=

German original: http://boess.welt.de/2015/01/07/deutsche-streitkultur-pegida-und-der-islam/

[Oberon]

“The internal expurgation of the Islamic spirit is not possible in any platonic way. For the Islamic spirit is the product of the Muslim person. Unless we expel the Islamic people. Unless we expel the Islamic people soon, they will have islamized our people within a very short time.”

[Skybird]

:hmmm:

“If only one country, for whatever reason, tolerates a Muslim family in it, that family will become the germ center for fresh sedition. If one little Muslim boy survives without any Islamic education, with no mosque and no Islamic school, it [Islam] is in his soul. Even if there had never been a mosque or an Islamic school or an Qu'ran, the Muslim spirit would still exist and exert its influence. It has been there from the beginning and there is no Muslim, not a single one, who does not personify it.”Once becoming its property - it's property for life. At least so Islam claims.

Disagreeing on this is forbidden by threat of death penalty. ;) For life means: for life for sure.

At least so islam thinks/claims/ticks. Apostates may disagree at their own risk.

[Skybird]

“The internal expurgation of the Islamic spirit is not possible in any platonic way. For the Islamic spirit is the product of the Muslim person. Unless we expel the Islamic people. Unless we expel the Islamic people soon, they will have islamized our people within a very short time.”

The intolerant will overwhelm the tolerant if the tolerant even tolerate the intolerant, yes, and with the tolerant their tolerance will be destroyed as well. Popper, anyone? :D

You may now see why I refuse to actively help the state to enforce its pro-Muslim migration policies, why I refuse to help it, and why I avoid to make devout Muslims loyal to the Quran feel welcomed and tolerated. They are neither welcomed, and tolerance that is enforced (by the state), is no tolerance, but pressure and blackmailing.

[Oberon]

Once becoming its property - it's property for life. At least so Islam claims.

Disagreeing on this is forbidden by threat of death penalty. ;) For life means: for life for sure.

At least so islam thinks/claims/ticks. Apostates may disagree at their own risk.

So "this Islamic contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Muslim, has been banished from our midst." :hmmm:

[Skybird]

So "this Islamic contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Muslim, has been banished from our midst." :hmmm:
Muslim in the meaning of true Muslim ("Quranic Muslim") - yes. This should not surprise you at all. Formally, from Islam's POV, my buddy who was with me this last afternoon, is Muslim, becasue he weas born to a Muslim father and so is Islamic property for life. In reality, he has become an apostate long time ago. His family clan came to Germany the same year I moved to this town, in 2000. Both his brother and sister meanhwile have fled from Islamophile Europe in disbelief, to Thailand. They felt threatened by what is going on in Europe. The parents were murdered in Lebanon when attending a secret meeting with other family members - a visit that obviously did not remain to be secret, and those other family members obviously did not tolerate their escape from them and from Islam.

These people, Oberon, are not to be called Muslim anymore. They are not. Not by Western understanding. And that is the understanding that they have chosen for themselves.

P.s. the one thing I do not forgive him is that he has driven all the German racetracks that I only know from simulations. :) He does amateur stockcar racing and trackday racing as a private hobby in real life. Poor me - does not even own a car...

[Onkel Neal]

So "this Islamic contamination will not subside, this poisoning of the nation will not end, until the carrier himself, the Muslim, has been banished from our midst." :hmmm:

I was wondering what you were quoting so I googled and... look what came (https://www.google.com/search?q=this+Islamic+contamination+will+not+subsi de&oq=this+Islamic+contamination+will+not+subside&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8)up:o

[Skybird]

We probably googled at the same time, I only wonder whether we came to the same conclusions that Oberon intended.

I add this again, because I think it has not gotten the attention that it deserves when I quoted it some pages earlier. Take it as a counter to Oberon's extremely indirect point-delivery :) .


In Malik’s analysis of Quranic strategy, the human soul — and not any physical battlefield — is the center of conflict. The key to victory, taught by Allah through the military campaigns of the Prophet Muhammad, is to strike at the soul of your enemy. And the best way to strike at your enemy’s soul is through terror. Terror, Malik writes, is “the point where the means and the end meet.” Terror, he adds, “is not a means of imposing decision upon the enemy; it is the decision we wish to impose.”
(...)
How we respond to this attack is of great consequence. If we take the position that we are dealing with a handful of murderous thugs with no connection to what they so vocally claim, then we are not answering them. We have to acknowledge that today’s Islamists are driven by a political ideology, an ideology embedded in the foundational texts of Islam. We can no longer pretend that it is possible to divorce actions from the ideals that inspire them.

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/15_gennaio_09/how-to-respond-to-the-attack-paris-e84f7e24-97e3-11e4-bb9d-b2ffcea2bbd2.shtml

[Oberon]

So...basically you believe that there should be a "systematic legal combating and elimination of the privileges of Muslims, that which distinguishes the Muslims from the other aliens who live among us (an Aliens Law)." but that "The ultimate objective [of such legislation] must, however, be the irrevocable removal of the Muslims in general." :hmmm:

[Skybird]

I see no reason why any migrant group should be given special rights and treatments that neither any home group nor other migrant group is allowed nor demands. I also see no reason why any relgious lineage shoukld be given the right to be elcuded from secular state order'S rules and laws.

As far as "Muslims" staying here, obviously I differ between "Muslims" being real Muslims, which means they have all that Quran and satuff in theirm luggae and are loyal to it, whith the impolkicaiton that they will not inegrate, becaseu the Quran leave sno doubt on where their loyalty hgas to be: not with antinality and state law,. but with shariah.That is not negotiable, and beleivers of such a dogma will not be missed if they would lose the country and bvr come back. And then there are Muslims who call themselves Muslim by habit only but already have abandoned major parts of relgious demands and rulkes for their way of living. These are no real Muslims anymore, from an Islamic/Quranic POV. These should be seen and assessed fro pemritting to stay by the standards used for other miogrant groups: needed qualification, perspective for integration, language skill, and so on. Or something like the Canadian system.

So obviously I will not do anything that encourages the "real" Muslims to stay, or to come to this place in the first. Why should that be desirable? They will mean nothing but trouble, an they will not integrate. We SEE that they do not integrate, and instead form subcultural colonies and self-chosen isolation in parallel societies. Thy even often frankly admit that they do not want that, and that they do not want to approach Germany and the Germans. And that means nothing but trouble. I want them as much as I want a huge Scientology community, or a blossoming Nazism, or a healthy Moon sect, or the KKK. We must not want everybody. And we have the natural right to say No.

And consider this: the more migration you impose on the Germans that they do not want, the more their ressentiments, their hostility, their anger will grow, and the more radicalisation and tolerance for extremists on German side you will get. Social dynamics should not be ignored. You will reap the conflict that you have sown.

Haven't I just explained AfD and Pegida and the growing number of violent incidents against mosques?

We need migration. And many migrant groups are welcomed, and integrate, and bring skills we need on the labour market. But some migrant grouops bring us nothing of that, but trouble. And these we should sort out. That is the reasonable thing to do. And it is morally perfectly legal.

Ooops, its late. I'm out.

[Oberon]

I want them as much as I want a huge Scientology community, or a blossoming Nazism, or a healthy Moon sect, or the KKK.

Well, exactly, I mean who would want Nazism? I mean people with the same views as Adolf Hitler are quite clearly deranged. :yep:

[Dowly]

:rotfl2:

[Skybird]

Well, exactly, I mean who would want Nazism? I mean people with the same views as Adolf Hitler are quite clearly deranged. :yep:
Deranged or not, before anything else they are first and foremost not Nazizists, terrorist Nazissis, fundamentalist Nazizobies or radical Nazizerros, but mainstream Nazis. Simply good ol' fashioned Nazis by the definition of the book. No further attribution of adjectives needed. Simply: Nazis.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/unbekannte-verueben-brandanschlag-auf-hamburger-morgenpost-a-1012368.html

Unidentified attackers have thrown an incendiary composition into the archives of German newspaper Hamburger Morgenpost during the night. On the day before, the paper had reprinted cartoons from Charlie Hebdo on its front page, with the headline "This much freedom has to be". The office for protection of the state has taken over investigation, saying it is self-evident to assume a link to the events in Paris.

[Betonov]

They're last minute dis-organized copycats.
They'll be caught by the police soon enough.

If there was a substantial link with Paris, they'd go in organized with assault weapons, not throw a fire bomb I can make in 5 minutes in my garage.

[Skybird]

Copycats or not, that is not what matters here. Not everybody got a combat, discipline and terror training like the thugs in Paris. What matters is that it happened. And that illustrates the motivational power of the events in Paris, and that there are people out there who are willing to follow that example as best as they can, amateurs or not. And that is what worries the security authorities more than anything else. There is no defence possible.

Meanwhile this, a Turk commenting quite honestly about the hypocrisy that also is to be seen in the official, politically correct reaction of the Muslim community to the events in Paris. For some reason, views like this still are underrepresented in the mainstream media, even after Paris.


"The magic formula "This has nothing to do with Islam" does not work anymore: A call for more honesty, thoughtfulness and self-criticism among Muslims" - Hit the translate button:
https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.achgut.com%2Fdadgdx%2Findex.php %2Fdadgd%2Farticle%2Fdie_zauberformel_das_hat_doch _nichts_mit_dem_islam_zu_tun_zieht_nicht_mehr&edit-text=

German original:
http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/article/die_zauberformel_das_hat_doch_nichts_mit_dem_islam _zu_tun_zieht_nicht_mehr

[Oberon]

Deranged or not, before anything else they are first and foremost not Nazizists, terrorist Nazissis, fundamentalist Nazizobies or radical Nazizerros, but mainstream Nazis. Simply good ol' fashioned Nazis by the definition of the book. No further attribution of adjectives needed. Simply: Nazis.

Absolutely, if a person agrees with the preachings of Adolf Hitler, no matter what their form, if he or she is in accordance with those words then they are a Nazi, a fascist, despite all their claims to be the opposite. They are the followers of an ideology that resulted in the deaths of over six million people and a major world war.
I think we can agree on this, can we not? :yep:

[Skybird]

Well, exchange "Nazi" and "Hitler" with "Muhammedan" and "Muhammad", and your agreement ends, I fear.

[Oberon]

Well, exchange "Nazi" and "Hitler" with "Muhammedan" and "Muhammad", and your agreement ends, I fear.

Well, returning to Islam, you state, if I am correct, that unless a Muslim actively works against the radicalism in Islam, thus becoming, as you say, a non-Muslim in the eyes of Islam, then he or she is identical to the people who carry out extremist attacks in the west? :hmmm:

[Onkel Neal]

Well, exchange "Nazi" and "Hitler" with "Muhammedan" and "Muhammad", and your agreement ends, I fear.

So, are you saying all Muslims are terrorists?

[Skybird]

No, that is not what I said. Not this time, and not in the past. Close, but still: wrong.

I said and indicted and implied that the silent tolerance by some, the glossing over Islam's brutal side in its ideology and the whitewashing of it and denial of its existence by others, all pave the road for tolerating a brutal and barbaric ideology on the grounds of the false assumption that it is nothing evil to be feared at all.

I implied that some do so due to lacking education and knowledge, others by arrogant ignorance, and again others by impertinent wilful intent to lie and deceive about it.

There is anything but united agreement that Muslim terror acts have to be condemned. Many Muslims across the glove celebrate it - and of these by far not all are participating in terrorist deeds. But they will to see them happening in Islam's name.

And finally I pointed out that Islam will never see a need to critically reflect about itself as long as one lets it getting away with its ways and gives room to it. Why should it take the effort to finally start reflecting about itself, if it gets its demands fulfilled in a free ride the West is giving it.

THAT is what I said.

Have I already said how sick and tired I am off getting misquoted and falsely summarised and being given wrong impressions of myself by inapt summaries of what I should have said, all that by ultra-short oneliners that hardly can summarize the many differentiations and details I include not for no reason in my slightly longer replies? I think I have, at least all this starts to feel like a deja vu.

And since I believe this deja vu is true, and you are determined anyway to ignore the ideological fundament of Islam and treat it as if it play no role, I leave it here now. Two days of this debate has been enough, a full third day I do not plan to add.

I recommend to try the multiple links I provided. Its bot translations and thus a bit rough, but still can be understood with some good will. Bye.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, exchange "Nazi" and "Hitler" with "Muhammedan" and "Muhammad", and your agreement ends, I fear.



Meanwhile, a hero is born
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/10/europe/kosher-grocery-employee/

[Betonov]

My mother called me a terorist.
does that make me a muslim.

[Skybird]

So, are you saying all Muslims are terrorists?
:dead:

Go back and start following with the posts to which that comparison traces back.

For heavens sake, really. It all is there. You guys complain about me typing so much and repeating so often, but you do not care for why I do that: and that is due to illustration, details, end explaining something as clearly as I can. If I do not do this, I would be taken wrong. And when I do it, I get mostly ignored or distorted and again gets taken wrong.

:huh:

What I say, to answer your question, Neal, is this: that Islam is a totalitarian and warrior ideology, and that terror as a form of striking the enemy at his very heart is a tool legitimised by Muhammad's ideology - because he practiced it himself that way. Compare to Ayaan Hirs Ali's comment on that Pakistani general's remarks that I repeatedly linked in this thread, and even gave a quoted paragraph from.

[Oberon]

So, are you saying all Muslims are terrorists?

What Skybird is saying, I do believe, is that Islam itself is a radical and violent religion, that since the Qu'ran advocates violence and death those who follow it are also advocates of violence and death, and those who don't advocate violence and death are not true Muslims.
It's a bit like how someone who supports the viewpoints and sentiments of Adolf Hitler is therefore a fascist and/or a Nazi.

[Onkel Neal]

:dead:

Go back and start following with the posts to which that comparison traces back.

For heavens sake, really. It all is there. You guys complain about me typing so much and repeating so often, but you do not care for why I do that: and that is due to illustration, details, end explaining something as clearly as I can. If I do not do this, I would be taken wrong. And when I do it, I get mostly ignored or distorted and again gets taken wrong.

:huh:



Well, to be honest I only have time to skim your longer posts. I don't usually read really large posts by anyone, don't have time.

What I say, to answer your question, Neal, is this: that Islam is a totalitarian and warrior ideology, and that terror as a form of striking the enemy at his very heart is a tool legitimised by Muhammad's ideology - because he practiced it himself that way.

Ok, that's pretty much what you have been saying for months. I will salute you for being thorough, you back up your opinions with research. I get it. I disagree, I think you are wrong, and I have previously voiced my reasons why, but you are entitled to your opinion. Just be mindful of others who post here.





What Skybird is saying, I do believe, is that Islam itself is a radical and violent religion, that since the Qu'ran advocates violence and death those who follow it are also advocates of violence and death, and those who don't advocate violence and death are not true Muslims.
It's a bit like how someone who supports the viewpoints and sentiments of Adolf Hitler is therefore a fascist and/or a Nazi.

Ok, dokey, I read you loud and clear.:salute:
As I've said to Sky, both the Jewish and Christian religions have there homicidal teachings--most Jews and Christian ignore them. Only small sects of Christians take the part about handling snakes seriously. I think it's pretty clear that millions of good Muslims ignore the crazy parts of the Koran as well. It's the fringe that take the bad parts and act on them. Anyway, that's MY opinion.:sunny:

[Tchocky]

Hey guys, back from peeling potatoes in the brig. I apologise for the nasty language that Sailor Steve had to remove, nobody needs to read that. It was unnecessary and crude.

____________________________________________

Anyhoo.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30765824

Over a million people marching in Paris, over 700,000 marching all across France yesterday.

It's heartening to see this kind of expression instead of lazy xenophobia or racism, which is something we all know can easily follow events like this in modern Europe.

http://imgur.com/a/zd5rl/

The above gallery are some cartoons from Arab newspapers in reaction to the tragedy.

Maybe I'm simplistic, but to my mind people standing up for the rights of cartoonists not to be murdered is something to be welcomed.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80188000/jpg/_80188182_80188181.jpg

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/6011536-3x2-700x467.jpg



Currently, Europe mourns, and sheds tears, and holds motivating speeches. Now that there is not any risk at all involved and no courage needed to hold up a sign in a crowd reading "I am Charlie", people follow the popular trends and follow the rite that is expected of them. Betroffenheitskultur, the German word would be. But I am not like that. I am not sad, and I do not cry - I am angry, and I want to see Europeans finally setting up a fight to Islam - finally. Those people now flocking through the streets, the same people that just a day before maybe still said - and already now say again - that one has to see the good in Islam as well and that it all is relative and a question of interpretation, I spit them my despise on their feet, and all they can get in applause from me for their civilian "courage" by which they "mark a sign", is a slap in their stupid, ignorant face. They should be lambs, not humans, hopping on a meadow and in time being led to the slaughterhouse to contribute to the meal of somebody else.

[Armistead]

It's good to see people marching, but marches won't matter if people don't start dealing with the issues....worldwide jihad...

Vive La France