Help me understand youth today

[GoldenRivet]

I'm beyond frustrated.... I dont understand em.

Step Son is 19 years old, fresh out of high school... spoiled rotten as hell and never had to work for a single thing in his life and it makes me sick.

He graduated high school in May of this year, had a decent "last summer" and managed to enroll for classes at a local college just getting into the registration office right at the deadline. So he signs up for some classes at his mother's insistence (and my own) that he either enroll full time in college or he get a job or both.

So he gets his classes all lined up.

before it is all said and done he had dropped them to find out half way through the semester. Well... at that point in time it was too late to do anything about that so... get a job until registration for the next semester.

Wife pulls some strings, gets him an interview at a local mom and pop pizza place where a lot of the local high school and college kids work.

He lasted a full 3 weeks before he quit

why did he quit?

his friends were hosting an XBOX live event for Madden 14 Saturday afternoon and he had to work, well... he couldnt miss that ever so vital life event so what does he do? Calls in Sick Saturday, and Cold Calls the boss Sunday to just up and quit! WTF?

So why is he like this?

grandparents - grandfather in particular IMHO is the cause of this problem.

When he graduated high school he wanted a car.

Mom and I: "Well, here is what we are willing to do. Get a job, we will put the down payment on a used vehicle you can afford at your wage, and as long as you are working and make the payments we will title the car in your name when it is paid off and you can then do as you wish with it."

within 3 days of kicking around our recommendation... Stepson pulls up with a late model Ford Mustang and a grin on his face like a Cheshire cat. - courtesy of grampa

Not only did his grandfather do the leg work of finding the car, he financed it in his own name, used his own money to make the down payment, pays for all of the fuel, insurance and maintenance and to top if off opened a checking account in the boy's name and funnels money into it weekly which pays for his time with friends out and about, trips to the movies, dates, all of his stopping for a bite to eat.

in doing this, virtually all of the expenses a 19 year old boy has are covered by someone else!!!

well there is your problem right there!!!

Result? 8 hours a day of playing XBOX and lounging around on my sofa

If i had a grampa who covered 100% of my expenses including my car, fuel money etc what would be my incentive to go out and work?

His mother and I are beyond frustrated by all of this.

I have told his mother that in order for a person to want to change their circumstances, they must first find their circumstances are not to their liking - once this takes place and he finds he has no money to pay for his XBOX Live account, is in danger of losing his car etc - then and only then will he have incentive to work and become a contributing member of society

I am told a lengthy conversation has taken place and that the grandfather has agreed to cut this stuff off... but we will see :nope:

So why is it that people treat the young men and women these days like this?

What is with the persistent desire to shield them from all possibility of ever experiencing failure? Defeat? going without?

I fail to understand it

I mean seriously? how to you get a person to want better for themselves if they live a life free of responsibility and hardship?

[CCIP]

To be fair, I think it was always this way, it just depends on the person and circumstances. I'm always cautious because there could be more to the story, but other than that, I agree that if a behaviour can't continue, you gotta have a stop put to it, and bring the offending person to talk and explain themselves. Sometimes it's a good exercise for them in making them see their own crappy attitude by having to explain it in their own words.

As for me in that situation, I just have family members that I don't really talk to for the same reason - they're spoiled brats who've ended up hurting others in the family, and I'm not gonna waste my energy trying to deal with them. And a lot of the time that's the best thing you can do - for all the urge to help, sometimes the best you can do is just disengage with people who aren't seeing their own behaviour for its consequences.

[Red October1984]

As a youth of around that age myself, I feel like making him pay for his Xbox and Car usage would be effective. Shoot, I wish I had a grandparent to pump money into my car. I work around 13-16 hours a week, play 2 sports, am involved in at least 6 organizations (I lose count, but know I just have to show up places at a certain date and time), taking dual-credit college courses, etc. The list goes on. I'm busy and I have to pay for all of my stuff on my own.

This has taught me to stretch my dollars (and my time) if I want to do what I want. It's not always easy. I've paid for meals with bags of pennies before with no shame at all. I've bought exactly $2.50 worth of gas with no shame.

In the last week, I worked two shifts and at payday I had 80$. After filling up the car and setting aside money for insurance, I had 40$. I went out for sushi and that was 13$ more. The stuff burns fast and it's not unlimited. I don't think your son is truly a bad kid. I just think that once he has to start paying for everything himself, the things he's been able to sit and do aren't very doable anymore. He may be stubborn about it...but it's hard to be stubborn and watch your own defeat. He'll figure it out if you take away the training wheels.

As far as the way people treat us? Well....here's my take. It all starts at the beginning. The environment that kids are raised in now is too soft. In a place where everybody gets a trophy for participating, nobody is taught to be competitive. I spent some time in a church-funded basketball league some years ago and hated it. They never kept score, never called fouls, never had free-throws, never had tournaments or rankings... They did however give everybody a medal and some stars (given out for specific attributes) to wear on their shirts every week. Sure, it's got good intentions, but kids aren't competitive anymore when you start rewarding participation. Anybody can just show up. I'm not trying to knock the parenting of this kid over the years or anything...I'm just stating an observation based on personal experience. As CCIP said, there could be more to the story.

Kids are growing up hearing "You can do whatever you want when you grow up." In theory, yes...but that requires work. Kids are growing up and chasing dreams instead of accepting reality. "I wanna be an astronaut." Well, that's fine and dandy but you're going to have to work really hard to achieve that goal. You're going to have to spend some time at the bottom grinding every day.

We take away the concept of the bottom when we reward kids for showing up. It just teaches them from the start all they have to do is put their name on the list and they accomplished something. It's like Social Communism or something.

Keep your head up GoldenRivet. You'll get it sorted out one way or another.

[Skybird]

Hard to comment on a situation with people one does not know. Just saying that not all people are equal, some need a bit more time to find a line in their life to follow, it is not always straight and disciplined. Also, he is a victim of the time he lives in, and got influenced since 18 years now by the values and views of the society all around him.

I took a long time to finally get to university, too. And today I know - afterwards - that my intended profession was the wrong choice. However, without having done it first I would never have known the latter - and probably always would have regretted to not have tried it.

That's life.

I admit to quit a job just for a console event is a bit weird, however, and has a small red light blinking on my mental radar screen. But youth has some natural right for foolishness. Question is when and whether in time or not it gains some wisdom from the experiences.

[Betonov]

Move them in with his grandparents. Sooner or later it will backfire on them and they'll stop their support.

[Skybird]

:O:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7TpZiBQ-u4

Sorry, couldn't resist. :smug:

[CCIP]

Move them in with his grandparents. Sooner or later it will backfire on them and they'll stop their support.

That could work, but it also might not - I speak from experience of that with my family. One branch of my family had been terrible brats to my grandparents, and yet they still got the whole inheritance (because they were good at being "poor misguided kids who need our help the most") and no real consequences at the end. So I wouldn't underestimate the rose-tinted glasses with which grandparents and parents can see their young ones sometimes.

Conversely, I can also share my own experience - a few weeks ago, my parents (whom I've lived well away for years but have kept in good contact with) got this impression that I've been avoiding them because they helped me out with money when I was jobless in the summer (very very rare exception - they're the kind of parents who made me pay rent to live at their place from the day I turned 18), and that I didn't want to talk to them because I was treating them as loan sharks and naggers (they've been on my case about a few things that I procrastinated on), when all they were trying to do was help me and be good parents. What they didn't realize was that I was a) a lot busier with my jobs and other relationships than they knew; and b) had been suffering from a debilitating depressive episode otherwise, which I really didn't want to talk about because that doesn't help me any. It's not that I wasn't talking to them because I didn't appreciate them or thought something bad of them, I just really didn't have the will or energy left over after work to talk to anyone. The best thing they could do to help was to give me some space, and some peace and quiet. In the end, they did, and I was honestly much better off for it.

Sometimes it's great when you can sit a younger person down and give them advice and talk through their problems, confront them over everything and make them take a can-do attitude towards everything and have them change overnight. It'd be great if that always work, but sometimes it just doesn't. It especially doesn't help if what they're going through is something completely out of your control, and where understanding might do absolutely nothing to help. In that case, the thing that helps best is, again, boundaries and learning to disengage from another person and not be so worked up over them.

Alternatively, sometimes demonstratively calling people on their BS and refusing to talk to them until they take the initiative and change their behaviour is also a totally working approach.

[GoldenRivet]

Im sure it will work itself out. His old man ran out on him when he was 5 years old. so in a way his grandfather was his "father figure" for most of his life.

I wont lie, when i was 16 my folks got me a car, and they paid for it and my gas provided the running around wasnt excessive and i kept a job. which i did.

but he is 19... when i was 19 i didnt even reside in the same state as my parents, i worked my tail off to keep rent paid as the deal was -live in the dorms and parents will pay... get an apartment and thats your rent to pay.

I made the choice to get an apartment with a room mate - thus i had to work to keep the rent and electric and water paid etc. other people counted on me... if i didnt come up with my part of the rent we got evicted, or i got replaced as a roomie... if i didnt come up with my part of the electric bill we would have to study by candle light... screw that.

Yes i remember times where i had to desperately scoop up loose coins from the cup holders of my car, under the seats, out of the couch cushions to rush them to the bank and deposit my pitiful findings so i could keep a positive balance in my checking account which i doubt ever saw a balance higher than $250 at any given time, but probably averaged around $50.

I always wanted more for myself.

I have always known i could eek through life skidding in under the wire financially speaking and if i were satisfied in doing so i might just still be a professional pilot!

but no... im sorry... i want my 250 sq ft bathroom and my granite counter tops, i want my 4X4 truck, I want to buy ribeye steaks and crab for dinner every week, i want to take 4 and 5 day vacations to 30th floor Vegas suites and I want(ed) girls - damn fine girls - to see the ambition and the desire i had for finer better things and i wanted the fringe benefits :up: that came along with women noticing a man's success. It is for that reason i sweat my butt off, i work like a dog, and i put in the hours and the pain it takes to make the aforementioned things a reality

For him it seems to be enough to skate through the day ranking up in Call of Duty and having an online circle jerk with his gaming buddies while using square footage, electricity, water, and food that *i* pay for.

I dont get it how thats good enough.

Is this his ambition? i mean is this what he wants to be doing when he is 35 years old? talking smack on that tiny headset drinking code red mountain dew behind closed doors in the back room of my house?

Dont get me wrong, he is 19 years old... I get it, i totally understand his need for social life and fun etc... but he is 19, a man on paper, a child in reality... i dont expect him to be the CEO of the next big corporation by the end of the week - i dont even expect him to be late shift manager at Taco Bell. but it would be nice if he took one real life tangible thing seriously.

PRODUCE SOMETHING

do something for the love of God

Take something seriously and develop a work ethic

several of our local restaurants and fast food joints are currently hiring - but when suggested he is like "I dont wanna work in a place like that!" as if we had suggested he be a professional picker upper of squishy dog turds. Sorry dude... but waiting tables until midnight for tips wasnt too good for your mom when she was doing everything she could to keep food on the table and diapers on your butt!!!

He made a comment the other day about wanting his grandfather to help him (do it for him) buy a classic 1967 mustang.

I told him straight to his face the best advice i could muster (from the movie "the score")

"Make a list of everything you want now and then plan on spending the next 25 years of your life getting it. Slowly, piece by piece."

he dismissively resumed eating his breakfast.

im just beyond frustrated with the whole situation.

[Jimbuna]

This is a tough one John (aren't they all) and I feel a bit of a hypocrite responding because I have loaned quite substantial amounts to both my kids in the past but...

Rule no. 1-They must have the means to repay the sum and on successful conclusion they get a financial sweetener (10% of the loan). That way I feel I am keeping them to a routine in adhering to their responsibilities.

I've never had a step child so can only imagine it may be a little more awkward with attempting to keep an atmosphere of peace and harmony in the household at times.

One thing I will humbly suggest is that you ensure matters are never allowed to cause friction between your wife and yourself.

Wishing you well in your efforts my friend.

[raymond6751]

I've got a 19 yr old too, so I know what you are feeling. Remember, the first 18 years you bring them up. At 19 they are adults and the world takes over.

My son rebels against having a "list of chores" to do. He prefers if I just ask him to do something, or help me with something.

I'd say, look at his good points, be open for communications. Listen.

He doesn't have to be like you were.

If he is playing Xbox, he is not out getting into trouble or making it.

Yes, let him know you expect more, but not as complaints or nagging. At 19 all adults are idiots. We only get smarter with time. And, I'd have a chat with the grand parents to recruit their help in communications.

Best of luck.

[Wolferz]

There's always the Uncle Sam Ain't Raised Me Yet alternative.:shucks:

But, steering this young man onto that path would be problematic to say the least.

I too have a stepson who will be 34 come next summer and he spends his days glued to the couch with his PlayStation day in and day out. Unfortunately he is too mentally and physically fragile to hold a job or even have ambition to get a job.

[Platapus]

You could substitute "step daughter" for "step son" and you would have my life. :(

She is 26 and is now just starting to be able to support her self. :/\\!!

Kids!
I don't know what's wrong with these kids today!
Kids!
Who can understand anything they say?
Kids!
They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers!
While we're on the subject:
Kids!
You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids!
But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way?
What's the matter with kids today?
Kids!
I've tried to raise him the best I could
Kids! Kids!
Laughing, singing, dancing, grinning, morons!
And while we're on the subject!
Kids! They are just impossible to control!
Kids! With their awful clothes and their rock an' roll!
Why can't they dance like we did
What's wrong with Sammy Caine?
What's the matter with kids today! Just remember, it will get a lot worse.. and he may never grow up.

(crikey I need a drink)

[Father Goose]

As far as the way people treat us? Well....here's my take. It all starts at the beginning. The environment that kids are raised in now is too soft. In a place where everybody gets a trophy for participating, nobody is taught to be competitive. I spent some time in a church-funded basketball league some years ago and hated it. They never kept score, never called fouls, never had free-throws, never had tournaments or rankings... They did however give everybody a medal and some stars (given out for specific attributes) to wear on their shirts every week. Sure, it's got good intentions, but kids aren't competitive anymore when you start rewarding participation. Anybody can just show up. I'm not trying to knock the parenting of this kid over the years or anything...I'm just stating an observation based on personal experience. As CCIP said, there could be more to the story.

Kids are growing up hearing "You can do whatever you want when you grow up." In theory, yes...but that requires work. Kids are growing up and chasing dreams instead of accepting reality. "I wanna be an astronaut." Well, that's fine and dandy but you're going to have to work really hard to achieve that goal. You're going to have to spend some time at the bottom grinding every day.

We take away the concept of the bottom when we reward kids for showing up. It just teaches them from the start all they have to do is put their name on the list and they accomplished something. It's like Social Communism or something.

Keep your head up GoldenRivet. You'll get it sorted out one way or another.

I think Red hit this one "out of the park". :know:
Very little to add other than to state you are not alone GR. Let's hope grampa realizes what may make him feel good by providing to his grandson may not be in the best interest of the grandson. Otherwise you may be in for a long frustrating campaign. Good luck! :up:

[Skybird]

Its not a natural law that with 18 years you are now "adult" all of a sudden. Some are incredibly adult already with 16. Most will not be before their late 20s - and even then many of us still allow to make fools of ourselves.

[Rockstar]

My father never once told me to get a job. But he made it very clear to me when I was 14 or so years of age coupled with periodic serious but friendly reminders. That when I turned 18 and graduated high school I was to be out of the house.

Having knowledge of the future I got a job and prepared for it.

Within 2 days of getting my diploma my bags were packed and I was gone. Either that or he would have thrown me out. :D

whats wrong with youth is common to everyone, until checked we will attempt to get away with what we can.

[Aktungbby]

I think you're out of the loop on this one; being recently wed to the clan yourself; and grandpa-no fool at his age-is the father figure? The 19 year-old is enjoying a too-short rumspringa of lassitude:o before miring his feet in the inevitable drudgery of life. Enjoy your new marriage and stay out of the family ongoing politics...HEY wasn't there going to be a picture:woot:

[GoldenRivet]

Fortunately the wife and I are on the same page about all of this. The reason i am here talking to you guys is the result of my staying out of it. I have been staying out of it for a few months now LOL gotta vent somewhere.

dont get me wrong, he is a likable guy, he has good qualities, and like i said, i dont expect him to achieve a whole lot at 19, and i dont expect him to be like i was either.

a lot of you are right about raising them in a soft environment where everyone gets a trophy and everyone is protected from any sort of failure or hardship. IMHO you ultimately only provide the kid a disservice by doing that

sure help them when they falter, be there to ensure that they dont wind up homeless on the street... but allow them to venture out and learn a responsibility, allow them to fail, to come in second place, allow them to discover what the value of belongings are - not just what they cost.

When we went on our honeymoon, the responsibilities were pretty limited - watch the house, wash the dishes and take out the trash.

he succeeded in that we werent robbed... but the sink was overflowing with dishes which were growing mold and the trash can was brimming over filling the house with a garbage odor.

we immediately were like "oh my God who lives this way for a week?"

My dear bride knows how i have felt about the issue - she feels much the same way - but i shall continue to watch from the sidelines i guess.

Part of me is rather put out at the fact that i have a man living in the house old enough to vote, old enough to start his own family, old enough to act on his own legal accord and old enough to kill and die for his country - yet *I* have to cover part of his living expenses return free while he plays his games :/\\!!

[Aktungbby]

but i shall continue to watch from the sidelines i guess.
The perfect vantage position for support as needed - an occasional roar and no contact swipe of the paw; Smart kid: the would-be home banditos probably stayed away from the stench too! My bothers went through step-inlaw issues and my baby brother showed little promise at this age and he's in charge of all things now (I'm a delegating patriarch)-He'll out-grow it...on his timetable...and no one elses! He's only about age 15 between the ears which are still wet I'd bet! Can he inspect an aircraft for preflight and taxi 4 takeoff yet-really tightens the focus-and you can lead by example: from the front Always! It's a very sneaky tactic...:smug: He'll discover better toys and that his balls belong in his own jockstrap!:stare:

[GoldenRivet]

Well i have to tell you the "step parent" role over the past 2 years with this lovely gal has had its tough times. But fortunately we all get along together very well - i have to say i have had it easy. the rough patches are few and far between.

Her son is a fun loving person, easy to talk to and get along with and the daughter and i adore one another she is a great kid.

everyone has their hiccups and their rough patches. I just hope this loving, hugging, sweet little 9 year old girl doesnt grow to hate her mother and i in the next 3-5 years. We are bracing ourselves for that.

[Armistead]

When I was younger there were two classes basically, the rich kids, but even spoiled, they usually went to college right after school. Other than them, almost everyone I knew in school worked. I was working almost full time hours at age 15 , walking to work after school and my poor mother picking my up at 11 every night 5 nights a week... Certainly by 16, I was responsible for all my needs other than food and shelter, etc....car, clothes, wants, haircuts, you name it. Most of us were being prodded very quickly to leave home when we hit 18. I was on my own one month after HS graduation, 3 roommates in a small old house...Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet, heck, don't think I owned a PC until I was 27 and you know what that was.

We have created a generation that lives through the internet. Heck, read a story the other day where a kid killed his parents because they grounded him from his PC and he had a tourney to play....My son is 17, in HS, but I fight to keep him off the net...if we didn't, he would live there. Thankfully he has a life because we control his internet...

Course my grandparents use to tell me how spoiled I was when I was a kid, how they got up at 5, did the farm work, chores , before school....and it was basic work until bedtime....the lights went off early.

I think as technology and economics evolve our children are becoming more socially immature compared to the previous generation. When I go to school events and hang around youth, at 17 and 18 they seem to have the maturity of my generation at age 12.

Today, we also live in the mindset of entitlement, lack of discipline and structure. Kids form bad habits and we let them and when they reach adulthood, we realize we still have children in our homes. I fought that with my stepdaughter. If you don't have it controlled by 18, you'll probably have several years left dealing with grown adult children living at home with you, off you, while claiming their rights as adults....At this stage, many parents realize the mistake and feel guilty and let it continue, fearing if they kick them out....how could they possible make it......next thing they know they have a 25-30 year old still in his bedroom playing computer waiting for mommy to bring his supper.....Nip the behavior in the bud as constructively as you can....or prepare for years of misery..

[Aktungbby]

Well i have to tell you the "step parent" role over the past 2 years with this lovely gal has had its tough times. But fortunately we all get along together very well - i have to say i have had it easy. the rough patches are few and far between.

Her son is a fun loving person, easy to talk to and get along with and the daughter and i adore one another she is a great kid.

everyone has their hiccups and their rough patches. I just hope this loving, hugging, sweet little 9 year old girl doesnt grow to hate her mother and i in the next 3-5 years. We are bracing ourselves for that.

One look (great pics) says all: she picked you 'cause you can handle IT! Your well ahead on parenting points! As for the daughter: teens are ahead; raging hormones and mother-daughter...:stare: WHATEVER! Stay on the sidelines! but never lose control of the channel-changer and they must knock before entering the 'mancave'... er you did do a prenup on your 'bastion of tranquility'...didn't you? We'll give advice on the grey/black water issues!:D PS: I'm married to a divorce attorney-35 years:timeout: my mistake!:haha: I didn't expect to live this long!:03:

[Herr-Berbunch]

When school (UK=college) ended for me I would have been quite happy to sit back and do cock-all until I joined the RAF (which was inevitable for me, but probably less likely if I'd done just that), but parents insisted I go to the job centre, a few days later I was on an infamous YTS (Youth Training Scheme) earning £27.50 per week, or thereabouts. Two years later I was in the RAF which was ultimately the making of me.

Him doing nothing isn't an option in anyone's favour.

I'm in a similar situation with a lazy 17 year old stepson, although he does, and will, go to uni next year. Hopefully far enough for us to visit occasionally but not for us to become a launderette and snack bar. He does reluctantly do chores so we don't change the WiFi password, but refuses to get a job to earn a bit of cash for himself. Grandma (on estranged side) fills in the holes with cash, food (processed crap and energy drinks!), and clothing. Anything so he'll keep visiting.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm beyond frustrated.... I dont understand em.

Step Son is 19 years old, fresh out of high school... spoiled rotten as hell and never had to work for a single thing in his life and it makes me sick.

He graduated high school in May of this year, had a decent "last summer" and managed to enroll for classes at a local college just getting into the registration office right at the deadline. So he signs up for some classes at his mother's insistence (and my own) that he either enroll full time in college or he get a job or both.

So he gets his classes all lined up.

before it is all said and done he had dropped them to find out half way through the semester. Well... at that point in time it was too late to do anything about that so... get a job until registration for the next semester.

Wife pulls some strings, gets him an interview at a local mom and pop pizza place where a lot of the local high school and college kids work.

He lasted a full 3 weeks before he quit

why did he quit?

his friends were hosting an XBOX live event for Madden 14 Saturday afternoon and he had to work, well... he couldnt miss that ever so vital life event so what does he do? Calls in Sick Saturday, and Cold Calls the boss Sunday to just up and quit! WTF?

So why is he like this?

grandparents - grandfather in particular IMHO is the cause of this problem.

When he graduated high school he wanted a car.

Mom and I: "Well, here is what we are willing to do. Get a job, we will put the down payment on a used vehicle you can afford at your wage, and as long as you are working and make the payments we will title the car in your name when it is paid off and you can then do as you wish with it."

within 3 days of kicking around our recommendation... Stepson pulls up with a late model Ford Mustang and a grin on his face like a Cheshire cat. - courtesy of grampa

Not only did his grandfather do the leg work of finding the car, he financed it in his own name, used his own money to make the down payment, pays for all of the fuel, insurance and maintenance and to top if off opened a checking account in the boy's name and funnels money into it weekly which pays for his time with friends out and about, trips to the movies, dates, all of his stopping for a bite to eat.

in doing this, virtually all of the expenses a 19 year old boy has are covered by someone else!!!

well there is your problem right there!!!

Result? 8 hours a day of playing XBOX and lounging around on my sofa

If i had a grampa who covered 100% of my expenses including my car, fuel money etc what would be my incentive to go out and work?

His mother and I are beyond frustrated by all of this.

I have told his mother that in order for a person to want to change their circumstances, they must first find their circumstances are not to their liking - once this takes place and he finds he has no money to pay for his XBOX Live account, is in danger of losing his car etc - then and only then will he have incentive to work and become a contributing member of society

I am told a lengthy conversation has taken place and that the grandfather has agreed to cut this stuff off... but we will see :nope:

So why is it that people treat the young men and women these days like this?

What is with the persistent desire to shield them from all possibility of ever experiencing failure? Defeat? going without?

I fail to understand it

I mean seriously? how to you get a person to want better for themselves if they live a life free of responsibility and hardship?

It appears the entire family is loaded with enablers that provide a constant safety net. Stop both. He is 19. The age where parents are not responsible for his food, housing and education. Have him pack his things and find a place to live. Then and only then will the reality of living check to check will he fully understand XBOX extravaganzas will not pay the rent. In short, tough love.

[August]

It appears the entire family is loaded with enablers that provide a constant safety net. Stop both. He is 19. The age where parents are not responsible for his food, housing and education. Have him pack his things and find a place to live. Then and only then will the reality of living check to check will he fully understand XBOX extravaganzas will not pay the rent. In short, tough love.

That'd be my advice as well with the added qualifier that you must leave a door open for him if he gets his act together. Not totally open mind but he should know that he can get back into the families good graces with some effort.

Another disturbing aspect of many youngsters these days is that they are way too easily discouraged.

[Skybird]

Another disturbing aspect of many youngsters these days is that they are way too easily discouraged.
Frustration tolerance is lower, yes.

But they grew up in an affluent society, and learned from children's years on that there is a cheat to shortcut even the already simplified game mechanics in the games they play. They learned to have a low frustration tolerance, so what to expect of them.

----

I also would say that many jobs, the majority of jobs to be gotten, are not any attractive at all beyond getting money - and even the money often is too low to be really attractive. Knowing that one now is being fed to the machine, holds no incentive nowadays. And that can deadlock a human mind.

That is not to say "let them fool around if they want", no. It is to say: look closer whats behind it, differentiate where necessary, do not expect every 19 year old to be an adult in full command of his desires, expectations, future projections... most people at that age are not like that, and things do not always move so linear as some maybe think here.

From some time in their early to mid twenties they must understand that they can do whatever they want, but that their right to demand others to pay for their way of life, is not really existing in form of such a right. Until that point of time, that may vary from person to person, I say give them some longer safety line. We were not born to just fulfil other people's expectations (including business and society) that they direct at us.

[August]

I also would say that many jobs, the majority of jobs to be gotten, are not any attractive at all beyond getting money - and even the money often is too low to be really attractive. Knowing that one now is being fed to the machine, holds no incentive nowadays. And that can deadlock a human mind.

But when have the majority of jobs to be gotten ever been attractive beyond the money they bring in?

[Stealhead]

Shouldn't the title be why is grandfather spoiling youth? End of the day this is the fault of the one doing the spoiling. You need to tell gradpa to stop.

The safety net makes no sense to me either. You can always provide some help when\if they do fall circumstances depending. I recall a friend from the Air Force he came from a wealthy safety net situation but wanted none of it so he enlisted. One year his parents gave him a new Audi he sold it and sent them the money.

I can see though the longer you have net the worse it will be to some extent a person could come to fear full responsibility. At the end of the with such a net you are nothing more than a child in adult clothing.

[GoldenRivet]

Its crippling to the young man if you ask me.

experiencing failure and being dissatisfied with one's personal situation are the things that will ultimately motivate them and guide them to making the decisions that grant them the life they want. plain and simple.

[Skybird]

But when have the majority of jobs to be gotten ever been attractive beyond the money they bring in?
"It has always been like that." That's what you mean? In what way would that be an argument for or against anything? It isn'T, just points out a historic fact.

The younger ones are not all stupid, they realise that they not only will need to come up for their own lives under increasingly more difficult and uncertain circumstance, but that they have to burden the consequences of the mistakes that us now adults have made and left to them as well. And they will revolt against that sooner or later, there will be a clash of generations, that is for certain.

Most jobs are neither motivating, nor attractive, not by work, not by the money you get. Several months ago there was a psychological study done in Germany, could be a year ago or so, thats howed that the huge majority of employees had already "innerlich gekündigt", that means they still went to work because they could not afford to not get the money, but inside themselves that already had quit and just killed the time over the day due to dissatisfaction with their job lives. Needing to do something unattractive may be necessary to pay your bills, nevertheless it still remains to be demotivating a job for many. Just being able to pay your bills that way means it is pressure, not motivation or satisfaction or any other positive qualities that lead your footstep to your working place. You are not motivated that way. You curse every day when it begins instead.

Its like with a soldier and a shooting war. If the man has his sane senses still together, he will not like at all to go to war, not at all. He does not want, but he must. And that is something totally different.

[Onkel Neal]

One thing I will humbly suggest is that you ensure matters are never allowed to cause friction between your wife and yourself.
.

Best advise you can get.

[GoldenRivet]

when you are 18 or 19 and live with your parents and just need work to cover the expense of college books or your car payment there is nothing wrong with working at Taco Bell or being a stock person at the five and dime. The pay is crap, yes... but you could train a monkey to do it and they know that a majority of their personnel will only stay on and work for a few months before moving on to something else or just cold quitting to go play.

it comes with employing that age group.

on the other hand i have known several young men 16, 17 and 18 years old who had more responsibility before lunch than some 40 year olds i know.

[August]

"It has always been like that." That's what you mean? In what way would that be an argument for or against anything

Yeah we all know how you feel about work and working Skybird.

My point (to others I guess since I doubt you would agree) was that modern society has repeatedly told the younger generations that hard work is for suckers and that adversity is to be avoided rather than confronted and overcome. It is a crippling lie.

The truth is that making ones way through life successfully is no more difficult now than what previous generations have faced, but if one is told since birth that they have been given a raw deal then it's difficult to blame then if they don't want to even try. Western liberal self loathing might just be what destroys us.

[vanjast]

How about yourself, the boss :D, and grandparents discuss this, and formulate a plan to steer the boy in the right direction. I'm sure everyone can come to reasonable solution.

My youngest (like all youth, me too when I was young ?) is a smart clever kid, but spends a LOT of time on his pc and games. It's disturbing for Mom and I, but we haggle him no end and when he wants something (they always want something), this is when we 'move in for the attack'.
'It's nothing for nothing', we tell him, you work for your bits-n-pieces.
I toy with his brain too..
'Just think... it'll be nice to have a Bigger more Powerful gaming machine...but you know this needs money don't you. so the plan is... to make a plan - work now play later... Play now and you'll be paying for the rest of your life...nudge nudge. wink wink.'

All said nicely and in good humour.... but say it enough times and he'll believe it !!
:hmmm:

[GoldenRivet]

How about yourself, the boss :D, and grandparents discuss this, and formulate a plan to steer the boy in the right direction. I'm sure everyone can come to reasonable solution.

This occurred today. Supposedly, he is returning to school this coming semester, failure to maintain passing grades will result not necessarily in loss of the car but transfer of all payments for principle, insurance and fuel into his name with no further deposits from the grandfather.

My youngest (like all youth, me too when I was young ?) is a smart clever kid, but spends a LOT of time on his pc and games.

I have to admit, i am guilty of this. I enjoy SH3 and flight sim X to no end, sometimes, i am up playing these childish games later than he is! the other night i pulled into Wilhemshaven at 0400..... real time

I guess i could blame the nature of my work on the boy's impression of success. You see... i go away to work when called, and i dont return for sometimes 6 months. this last go round i went out on April 2nd, didnt come home until just a few days before thanksgiving. Now... i did get a 3 day weekend at home for a wedding shower, and another 3 day weekend for a funeral - but the reality is that i am "out of sight out of mind" to him for anywhere from 90 to 220 days out of the year.

what he doesnt realize is - i have virtually NO access to games, flight sims, xbox, Wii whatever for that ENTIRE time, I am up at 0630, on the first job site by 0800 and i dont get into the RV for dinner until about 1900. the only game i played for 6 straight months on deployment was pacific fleet and billiards for iPad :doh::doh::doh: over and over and OVER and OVER again.

But when i come home... i am OFF work for the entire winter and early spring. so he sees me doing alright and all i do is play games. :88)

I figure sooner or later he will come around.

Its like my step daughter - she HATES blue jeans.. and insists on wearing those elastic stretch sweat pants. Her mom just wishes the kid would wear some blue jeans.

I tell the mom... wait, just wait, when she hits 14 or 15 and all the other girls are getting noticed by the boys in those cute bling'd out blue jeans, she will come walking in the door begging for a pair.

[em2nought]

It was so much easier in the old days when you could grease a press gang to round up your nare-do-wells. :D

[Skybird]

Yeah we all know how you feel about work and working Skybird.
Oh, thanks for your once again underhandedly stab to my back, but neither all people nor you know me well enough to judge that aspect of my life thoroughly. All you know is that for several reasons I refuse to fall in line with your demands for how people should live their lives. And that is what really is the root of your despise.

But you see, as long as I do not live my life's ways at your expenses or that of anyone else, even still am forced by a state that I see as criminal to pay it regular protection money, as long as I pay the demanded price for what I take, and am at peace with my conscience and my family, have my past needs being paid for and give back more to insurances than I take out of them - as long as this is so you must not care for how I live and why, for I owe you nothing, and certainly no obedience of any kind. I have had around a dozen of paid jobs since I left school, all of them meaning nothing and being more or less lousy, a waste of lifetime, underpaid. I spend years with free voluntary work of mine that was closer to my orginal profession, that was of benefit for people I dealt with, and I saw not a single coin for it, even sometimes paid into it. And for several reasons that almost all necessarily are unknown to you I decided some time ago to no longer run my life that way, and that I want to invest my energy and life only in a job if it is meaning something to me, and if I get a fair pay for it. I can afford not to work, if I keep my living standard on a modest, reasonable, relatively low level - and I do not intent to ever apologize for that, for there is nothing I need to apologize for. That gives me an enormous freedom in time that I can invest to enjoy life, read what interests me, deal with things I take interest in, play a game, do some cooking, walk in nature, or just sit and watch the clouds moving in the sky. I have seen from far too close that things can also be very different, and how miserably people can be made to suffer, thanks, no more demonstration needed.

All this I do and live at the cost and expense of nobody, and by refusing to be other people's errand-boy anymore. So who are you to time and again snipe me over my life and past jobs? Not somebody too important, I would say.


My point (to others I guess since I doubt you would agree) was that modern society has repeatedly told the younger generations that hard work is for suckers and that adversity is to be avoided rather than confronted and overcome. It is a crippling lie.

The truth is that making ones way through life successfully is no more difficult now than what previous generations have faced, but if one is told since birth that they have been given a raw deal then it's difficult to blame then if they don't want to even try. Western liberal self loathing might just be what destroys us.

Oh, i do not disagree at all. I only think that all what you say is just parts of the explanation for the problem, not a compete explanation itself already. Like I also do not disagree with this threat's general replies - I just give a bit counterfire because with some people it sounds to much like arguing that there is a strict ageline that is the same for every personality (that at the age of 18, 19 still is in flux), and that such a fixed dateline decides when a person is ripe to be seen as an adult.

What i regret is that modern societies no longer have "rites of initiation", or life-phases of transformation: quests like the wandering years of young craft apprentices (Handwerkslehrlinge) that in past times used to wander around in the land for 2 yeras or so, to collect experiences. They did not work, they wandered around and saw the land instead, asked for some food and shelter, and usually were given that. I was lucky enough that some invisible hand led me to take care of that for myself when i was young, even though I did not look at it that way back then. Granted, there was foolishness and carelessness involved, too, and the money was tempting. The big risks involved I did not allow to worry my too much. Today I would say that sometimes I was an irresponsible idiot. But still, I survived it, didn't I. These "Lehr- und Wanderjahre", as they were called in German, I think did an awful lot of good for young men. Some of the spirit of this may seem to have survived in some club's and circles' ritual ceremonies, but often they are just a caricature of what it really was to be about.

But today young people are expected to be streamlined and to immediately fall into the needs and demands of mass-production and big business. That we all wear watches on our wrists, comes from that: these devices became popular only because of the need of factories to synchronise their worker's movement, life, every single motion by their hands. Like rings bind you to wedding partners, watches bind people to the machines. Or computers: there is no operation system so far that allows you to have the machine running according to your wishes and demands, instead you must train yourself to act and interact in that way the machine demands from you, and to choose between options that the machine dictates to you, not the other way around. That feeds back to abstract qualities like cognitive processing and creativity - both get channeled and formed by the software that is used. And software is always limiting.

[August]

Oh, thanks for your once again underhandedly stab to my back

:roll: You are such a drama queen Skybird. You have made your viewpoints very clear over the years. Quit whining when someone mentions it.

[Skybird]

:roll: You are such a drama queen Skybird. You have made your viewpoints very clear over the years. Quit whining when someone mentions it.
Yes, everybody not accepting to just take your over the year regularly happening stabs silently, is a drama queen. Its about them, not about you. How could it be any different.

[Hottentot]

:roll: You are such a drama queen Skybird. You have made your viewpoints very clear over the years. Quit whining when someone mentions it.

Yes, everybody not accepting to just take your over the year regularly happening stabs silently, is a drama queen. Its about them, not about you. How could it be any different.

Pot calling kettle:rotfl2:

You know, guys...I left this forum a while ago just because of this. And every once in a while I come back to read the topics here and, thinking from the viewpoint of the community I am currently active in, I feel sad when I see this.

You three aren't unreasonable or stupid people. You could do a lot of good with the time you instead choose to spend year after year for this bickering.

Well, good luck with that anyway I guess.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird
I also would say that many jobs, the majority of jobs to be gotten, are not any attractive at all beyond getting money - and even the money often is too low to be really attractive. Knowing that one now is being fed to the machine, holds no incentive nowadays. And that can deadlock a human mind.

But when have the majority of jobs to be gotten ever been attractive beyond the money they bring in?

Exactly. Does anyone expect excellent high paying jobs to be just lying around for the taking? :arrgh!:

I tell what can break that human mind deadlock: hunger.

[Jimbuna]

You know, guys...I left this forum a while ago just because of this. And every once in a while I come back to read the topics here and, thinking from the viewpoint of the community I am currently active in, I feel sad when I see this.

You three aren't unreasonable or stupid people. You could do a lot of good with the time you instead choose to spend year after year for this bickering.

Well, good luck with that anyway I guess.

Nothing overly worrying atm, besides my radar is on even during the season of peace and goodwill toward everyone :ping:

[Skybird]

Exactly. Does anyone expect excellent high paying jobs to be just lying around for the taking? :arrgh!:

I tell what can break that human mind deadlock: hunger.

My argument there was not at all about how much is paid. You can get an excellent payment - and still the job stinks. Which might be a reason why it gets paid well. Need and demand - the oldest economic principle in the world.

There are only three reasons why a job might get paid well:
- it is so lousy or exhausting a job that else they do not find employees
- it needs high qualification
- the employer is a philantropist :)

High unemployment rates are a blessing for employers, because then people have no other choice than to accept lousy, bad jobs even for underpaid conditions.

But if you are not lucky to indeed do a work that you see reason and meaning in or that allowed you to turn a natural talent of yours into a job, any job you do is at best just boring and useless, at worst it leads you to inner erosion, depression, despair, lack of perspective - anything like that.

To be productive, no matter what, is a mantra many people follow today. Society expects you to be productive, people demands it from you, the state wants you to generate tax income for it, and beyond that of course you are expected to consume to support the commop0n economic models and theories that all push consumerism to max, if possible. As if we were were born for the purpose of just being working drones and consumers! That way we would not be better than the humans in Matrix serving as batteries. Of course we need to work as much as needed to secure our living. But were we can afford to not work, I would strongly recommend to indeed not do it, but spend your lifetime with something more meaningful, interesting and important to you - at least as long as you are not one of the lucky ones who indeed love what they do as a job. And that is a minority.

If you haven't made your hobby or ideal your job, do what you need to do for your living - but for the sake of your life that is limited and will not b e given a second chance: DO NOT MORE. You may find that there is more in life than just being a drone. I oftehn had elder collegaues at some job who said they do not like the job, but that it would be better than to sit at home only and stare at the wall. I always felt a big poity for these walking corpusses, because obviously they are already dead deep inside of them.

If you could afford to not sit at a cashdesk all day long, but to spend this day of your life with something that interests you, a book , a hobby, self-education about something that fascinates you, whatever it may be - if you could afford to do that but stick to the cashdesk job instead because you see nothing more being meaningful to you in your life and do not have any hobbies, interests and things that fascinate you, then you have a big, deep-rooting problem, and I say you would have been served better to have been born as a pigeon trained to pick on keys because it has learned that then it would get grain of corn.

Its sad that many people wanting to live a better life are hindered to do so. But it is hopeless if people could live a better life - and shake their head in denial.

As long as your way of living is not at the cost and expense of others who must pay the bill for you, nobody has any claim for you to make and you owe nothing to anyone. The American constitution says people have a right to pursue their happiness. Ayn Rand wrote that we do not just have the right but the duty to be happy. D.H.Lawrence wrote that the biggest virtue of man is to be happy.

Your lifespan is always limited. Be choosey what you spend it on. The time you spent, does not come back, not for good and not for bad, and you get no bonus. Suffering is no virtue, but just suffering, and nothing else. Suffering does not enoble anyone. Choosing suffering over happiness while not achieving something by that that has an ideal value to you, is masochism.

[Skybird]

You know, guys...I left this forum a while ago just because of this. And every once in a while I come back to read the topics here and, thinking from the viewpoint of the community I am currently active in, I feel sad when I see this.

You three aren't unreasonable or stupid people. You could do a lot of good with the time you instead choose to spend year after year for this bickering.

Well, good luck with that anyway I guess.

Well, Tribesman is on my ignore list, and sometimes I regret that I put August off that list. Getting sniped time and again, is a bit nerve-killing over time. Why not choosing to no longer needing to take note of it.

[vanjast]

Awwwwe.. stop whining you lot... this is GR's 'family' topic... not your personal 'me-myself-I' thingy
:03:

[Buddahaid]

It is possible for one to just ignore things without making them unseen. :hmm2:

[August]

Well I think the concept of doing just enough to reach some minimum societal benefit payback figure is nothing but an attempt to justify selfishness. There are no balance sheets to life. The way I see it we should all leave this earth secure in the knowledge of having given far more than we have received.

[GoldenRivet]

The way I see it we should all leave this earth secure in the knowledge of having given far more than we have received.

words i think we can all agree with

[August]

words i think we can all agree with

Not all unfortunately.

[GoldenRivet]

Not all unfortunately.

well... true.

I really meant "we all" as in those of us participating in this discussion

the world however is a big place, and opinions are like arse holes... everyone has them and they all stink to one degree or another

:haha:

[Wolferz]

I think the best you can hope for , GR, is that this young man has his epiphany sooner than later. He'll wake up eventually.

[Skybird]

The giving back and leave earth better than one found it is all well if you understand that to be a relevance beyond the orthodox social conventions and demands from ordinary business and politics. But if you define improvement only by their rules, since these things are porked beyond reason and aim at controlling the rules that benefit them, helping to improve things this way only makes sure to mess them up further. In other words: it is about conformity and preventing any change. Especially in politics and social conventions this should be obvious for everybody willing to see.

But that is also something that some people do not agree to, right?

[GoldenRivet]

Skybird... the bottom line is. a company will pay what folks are willing to do the job for. social conventions, personal feelings, weather, price of rice in China aside.

If one is not willing to produce widgets at $11 an hour... go find something else to do. the company producing the widgets is not committing a crime by paying its employees bottom dollar to sit in a factory for 9 hours a day turning screws as long as thats what they are willing to do.

not willing to do that? dont

go somewhere else, learn a trade that will pay you what you feel you are worth.

thats what i did.

i was unhappy plodding regional airliners through the sky for 20K a year with the bleak outlook of a decade long upgrade time and ever eroding management labor relations.

so i left... i got trained to do something else. Now i replace my airline salary every 45 days.

that stuff aside... i went to work at Dollar General (http://www.dollargeneral.com/home/index.jsp) when i was 19 and 20 years old... gave them a good year of my life. They were good to me, and i earned about $7.50 an hour to stock shelves, check out customers, bag their stuff and move them along out the door. I knew i was a 19 year old punk kid and the world didnt owe me any more than that... i was painfully aware that i was not a brain surgeon or an attorney... there is no reason kids cannot do this today and learn a work ethic to better prepare them for their future as grown men and women

[Skybird]

I do not disagree much, Golden Rivet, I did not disagree with most of what was said in this thread. Heck, I propagated and defended Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged in this forum a year ago, have you forgotten that...?! :D I just try to widen the perspective, because I think it is too simplistic to see people only as bots that do as being programmed by needs, and that there is a fixed dateline beyond which people all of a sudden are fully "adult". I disagree with for idealistic reasons, for reasons of experience, and for reasons due to my former studied profession (I was psychologist). As I already reiterated in my reply to Neal, the amount of money being paid is not my main argument, people can be paid a royal fee and still hating the job they do (although they obviously also hate it if being paid too little).

Maybe you understand better what I wa safter when I tell you this: at least in germany, but probbly also in other coutn ries as well where you have no high payment to pay for attending university, there was the phenomenon that students often studied loinger thanh they needed, and the prolonugued it and started to lag especially at the end of university. Becasue then the fear sets in for many, espoecially thoise who relaise how tough and often almost hopeless the situaiton ont he hob market is. So they fall for the illusion that they ciould buy themslves time, or that they oculd take a break in a delay that would not cost them (but it does, due to them ebcomingn older and the time gap showing in their written biography). The fear that now ther ewill be no more games to play, but the real seriousn ess of the job begins (or not, if you do not find one), cause quite some people to get paralysed, get distracted, stray off, and so forth. It is only human.

When considering that the future is more uncertain for many young ones than in the past decades, that they see the financial catastrophe slowly winning in pace, the biblical burdens that will be put on their shoulders due to the demographic chnages and overaging of society, the fact that economic competition with Asia will out enormous pressure on the labour market at home - when you consider this and many other things that are on people minds and in the media, it is understandable that young people may react like deer in a spotlight: they freeze, they loose courage and optimism, they react with like youth often reacts if it is afraid: it becomes stubborn, and tries to stop the flowing of time somehow.

That is no discussion about excusing or not excusing, I try to explain something. I once did counseling (for free...) in a family and couple counseling office run by the church (ironic, me working for a church office and them accepting me). Mostly I was engaged with spiritual crisis of people, the void they felt when having lost a sense of spritual orientation. Occasionally, what I just described was an issue that led parents to us - and that is over 15 years ago!! No Euro crisis back then. No debt crisis. EU optimism everywhere, "everything will be good". Well, times have changed.

"Man does not live by bread alone." I'm sure you already have heard that before, haven't you?! Without something more we do not live, but just exist. And that is not enough. Biological needs do motivate. But if that is the only thing that allows people to get motivated, then there is little what would differ them from animals for sure. There is more that motivates people. And a lack of fulfillment there can be a sting like hunger can be.

Just as a general reply to your post above. As I said in my first reply in this thread, I feel not competent and not familiar enough with you and your people as that I would dare to give you concrete advise on your stepson. Just keep your mind open at all directions for possible answers and/or solutions.

[Skybird]

That brings me to an idea. Does he read books, novels? Why not giving him Atlas Shrugged as a gift? Or cosider to have a deal with him. Reading for reward.

[Armistead]

Many youth want to skip the process of hard work until they can step into the right job and want to live off parents until they do...

[Fubar2Niner]

In my experience, many youths want to skip the process of hard and want to live off parents until hell freezes over ................ :dead:

Best regards.

Fubar2Niner

[Jimbuna]

Certainly not the case with my boy but the jury is still out on the girl.

[Fubar2Niner]

Certainly not the case with my boy but the jury is still out on the girl.

Fortunately Jim I never had a problem with my four, it's a little too early to say re the grandkids ;) I base my statement on the troup of youngsters that take up an apprentiship in places I've worked, then thrown it all in within a few months :o

Best regards.

Fubar2Niner

[nikimcbee]

Certainly not the case with my boy but the jury is still out on the girl.

My wife and youngest daughter(10 yr) are having a power struggle atm. I'm afraid she's going to be a handful when she gets older.

The problem is I married the biggest enabler this side of the Mississippi.
My wife will create a problem, complain about the problem she created,
then enable the smurfing problem!:down::shifty:

My wife's side of the family spoils the kids big time. Gives them whatever they want, whenever they want it.:down::down::down: So it shouldn't be a shocker when everybody is poorly behaved.
You should see how my youngest and her younger cousin absolutely own my wife. I don't intervene anyone, it's your bed, you sleep in it.:shifty:
Tough love is a foreign concept to my wife.

So why is it that people treat the young men and women these days like this?

What is with the persistent desire to shield them from all possibility of ever experiencing failure? Defeat? going without?

I fail to understand it

I mean seriously? how to you get a person to want better for themselves if they live a life free of responsibility and hardship?

I feel your pain GR. I think we're from a different plant.

Example: My son, one time, had some very poor table manners one night(I don't remember what it was). I corrected the behavior, and my wife got really mad at me and told me "I can't tell him how to eat." WTF!?!