NYGM ASDIC

[drewshotsfan]

Hi Guys

I hope you all had a great Christmas and are looking forward to the New Year's Eve festivities

I have a quick question. I have recently started playing SH3 with the NYGM mod, and it's great :) However, is the threat of surface vessels detecting your sub accurate? The reason I ask is that a few years back I remember downloading a mod that seemed more accurate. i.e. at the start of the war the RN detection was poor, but improved as time advanced. I felt this mod was accurate. It was great to experience the rising challenge of detection avoidance as the war years progressed and RN ASDIC technology improved

Does anyone know what this mod was? Is the NYGM mod set too aggressively for the early war period?

Cheers

Drew

[sublynx]

Welcome to the forum. Yeah NYGM is tough from the start. If they find you they will hound you for hours. The Royal Navy was able to do that during the early war but there was no hunter killer groups and there was a shortage of destroyers. The co-operation between the destroyers was still a bit unco-ordinated. Try GWX or LSH and if you get bored with the challenge they bring then switch to NYGM.

[BigWalleye]

There were a number of reasons why the U-boats had an easier time during 1939-40. The RN ASW forces had deficiencies tactically, operationally, and strategically. But I can't recall ever reading that either ASDIC hardware or operators were ineffective in that period. I'm currently re-reading Blair (Vol 1) and well into 1941, and he didn't mention problems with ASDIC in the early years. From what I have read, ASDIC did become even more effective as the war went on, but it doesn't seem to have been ineffective early on.

It seems you may have based your perception on a mod which, while designed to give an interesting gaming experience, was not reflective of historical capabilities. As sublynx said, either GWX or LSH will give you a less stressful experience.

Wish I could remember who wrote it: "NYGM doesn't have the best graphics, but it gives you a nice, accurate death."

[Obltn Strand]

...and remember. RN destroyers scored U-boat kills already during first month of the war...

Good tip for avoiding escorts in NYGM. DO NOT USE (too much) TC!

[BigWalleye]

Good tip for avoiding escorts in NYGM. DO NOT USE (too much) TC!

Jawohl!

[Zosimus]

Yeah 24 U-boats were destroyed in 1940–an average of two a month. U-31 was actually sunk twice in 1940.

Eight lost to mines (or just missing... assumed mines).
Two to accidents.
Two to aircraft.
Twelve to warships.

[Aktungbby]

drewshotsfan! :Kaleun_Salute:

[UKönig]

I recall reading, watching vids, that the British would be happy enough to run interference while the convoy tries to 'gain ground' so to speak. After a while the British warships would return to their convoy, lest it get too far away and come under attack by other U-boats. The American solution was a little more direct. They believed that the only way to eliminate the U-boat threat to any convoy, was to eliminate the U-boat itself. If the Yanks made contact then they would stay over you until you ran out of air and had to surface (or not). Or they would bomb you over and over until they got that tell-tale oil slick. It didn't matter how far the convoy got in the meantime. In the beginning, the US is not so hot when it comes to anti-submarine warfare, but (unfortunately for us perhaps), they get pretty good at it and in fairly short order. By March of 1943, the writing was on the wall, and it said, Death to U-boats.

[drewshotsfan]

Thanks for your replies guys, and yes, it is great to be on board :) That said, I have used this site for many, many years (I actually have a copy of SH2 from when it was released) but just haven't posted anything :oops:

I find this site really useful for not only mods but general tips too, so thanks for your help over the years

Now I have the taste for posting, you may hear more from me

I think I will stay with NYGM.......I like a challenge :o I have used GWX for years, so I thought I would try one of the other super mods for a change!

Mission update fyi..........I survived the first mission and avoided detection after sinking a merchant in a large escorted convoy off the west coast of Scotland. I'm setting off from Wilhelmshaven on mission number two now

Thanks again for your replies

Drew

[Zosimus]

I recall reading, watching vids, that the British would be happy enough to run interference while the convoy tries to 'gain ground' so to speak. After a while the British warships would return to their convoy, lest it get too far away and come under attack by other U-boats. The American solution was a little more direct. They believed that the only way to eliminate the U-boat threat to any convoy, was to eliminate the U-boat itself. If the Yanks made contact then they would stay over you until you ran out of air and had to surface (or not). Or they would bomb you over and over until they got that tell-tale oil slick. It didn't matter how far the convoy got in the meantime. In the beginning, the US is not so hot when it comes to anti-submarine warfare, but (unfortunately for us perhaps), they get pretty good at it and in fairly short order. By March of 1943, the writing was on the wall, and it said, Death to U-boats.
I think perhaps you're overstating the case of the destroyers. In reality the US beat the U-boats with air power. A U-boat can easily stay underwater for 16 hours and at 2 knots that's 32 nautical miles covered–that's almost 60 kilometers. It would be impossible for a ship or even a group of ships to cover that much ground.

Planes, however, could easily sweep the area and report the U-boat location when it surfaced. If forced down a second time without proper venting and battery charge, the U-boat is basically toast.

I've never run into a HK Group, but if I do my plan is to spend 24 hours under at 2 knots and then check the air. If I can go longer, I will. I don't know if SH3 models this, but I run my boat with a skeleton crew–the absolute minimum number of personnel that SH3 will accept. This should (fingers crossed) allow me to extend my underwater time to the maximum.

[BigWalleye]

I think perhaps you're overstating the case of the destroyers. In reality the US beat the U-boats with air power. A U-boat can easily stay underwater for 16 hours and at 2 knots that's 32 nautical miles covered–that's almost 60 kilometers. It would be impossible for a ship or even a group of ships to cover that much ground.

Planes, however, could easily sweep the area and report the U-boat location when it surfaced. If forced down a second time without proper venting and battery charge, the U-boat is basically toast.

Based on the results, it doesn't appear to be quite that cut and dried. According to uboat.net, 264 U-boats were sunk by surface ships, and 260 by aircraft. 37 more were sunk by simultaneous attacks. Clay Blair says that the first U-boat kill credited solely to an air attack was in late 1941, by which time some 60 U-boats had been sunk.

I've never run into a HK Group, but if I do my plan is to spend 24 hours under at 2 knots and then check the air. If I can go longer, I will. I don't know if SH3 models this, but I run my boat with a skeleton crew–the absolute minimum number of personnel that SH3 will accept. This should (fingers crossed) allow me to extend my underwater time to the maximum. You plan works fine as long as you can lose sonar and hydrophone contact with the ASW force. But that, as they say, is a fact not in evidence. In my experience (and in the historical reading I have done), if you can break contact, you will get away, usually in much less than 24 hours. If you can't break contact, you will probably be depth charged into submission well before that time.

Oxygen consumption in the boat is modeled in h.sie's patches , the one called (wait for it!) Oxygen Supply. And yes, consumption depends on the number of men - and their activity. Loading torpedoes - bad. Silnet running - good. And you can adjust the quantity of reserve tanks carried.

[Zosimus]

Based on the results, it doesn't appear to be quite that cut and dried. According to uboat.net, 264 U-boats were sunk by surface ships, and 260 by aircraft. 37 more were sunk by simultaneous attacks. Clay Blair says that the first U-boat kill credited solely to an air attack was in late 1941, by which time some 60 U-boats had been sunk.
I'm sorry! You have failed your reading comprehension test. Better luck next time.

What I said was that airplanes "could easily sweep the area and report the U-boat location when it surfaced."

Now report is not the same as attack and sink. Report means to relay information to the rest of the HK Group.

:down:

[BigWalleye]

I'm sorry! You have failed your reading comprehension test. Better luck next time.

What I said was that airplanes "could easily sweep the area and report the U-boat location when it surfaced."

Now report is not the same as attack and sink. Report means to relay information to the rest of the HK Group.

:down:

"In reality the US beat the U-boats with air power."

[Zosimus]

http://www.amazon.com/Hunter-Killer-Escort-Carriers-Atlantic-Bluejacket/dp/1591149959

"The pursuit of German U-boats in the Battle of the Atlantic has long been considered one of the most exciting stories of World War II. This definitive study takes readers into the cockpits and onto the flight decks of the versatile and hardy U.S. escort carriers (CVEs) to tell of their vital, yet little-known contribution to the anti-U-boat campaign. Sailing apart from the Allied convoys, the CVE captains had complete freedom of action and frequently took their ships on "hunt and kill" missions against the enemy. The German submarines were allowed no respite and no place to relax without the fear of discovery.

"World War II historian William Y'Blood explains that in the eighteen months between the spring of 1943, when the escort carriers began to prowl the Atlantic, to November 1944, the average number of U-boats in daily operation was reduced from 108 to a mere 31. Though land-based aircraft, various support groups, and the convoy system itself helped win the Battle of the Atlantic, the escort carrier groups' influence was profound. In addition to documenting the escort carriers' exciting operational history, the author also traces the CVE's development and construction and examines its tactical and strategic uses."

[BigWalleye]

http://www.amazon.com/Hunter-Killer-Escort-Carriers-Atlantic-Bluejacket/dp/1591149959

Your quote is not from Y'Blood's book, but from a promotional teaser (well, two of them, actually) for that book, written by the staff at amazon.com and included on the web page offering the book for sale. Here is a quote from a review posted on the same page. (Emphasis added.)

"This is a history of the US escort carrier groups in the Battle of the Atlantic. These groups were used in a variety of roles, but the main focus of this book is on their use as hunter-killer teams fighting the U-boats.

While the battle against the U-boats had turned a corner by the time these carriers were active, the carriers were excellent in fighting the U-boats offensively. How they did so is well told by Y'blood, although some of these insights need to be uncovered by a discerning reader. Their success highlights how several elements had to come together to defeat the U-boats: technological advances by those ashore; intelligence (Enigma, Huff-Duff); tactics; execution by those at the sharp end."

If I may add a further quote from the Amazon site:

"About the Author: William T. Y'Blood, a former USAF B-47 pilot and historian for the Office of Air Force History in Washington, DC...."

Having worked closely with the USAF for many years, I think it is likely that Y'Blood shared the view held by many Air Force officers that air power always dominates the battlespace.

[Zosimus]

Let me see if I can summarize your argument to make sure we're on the same page.

I argued that a crucial element of the HK Groups were the airplanes, which reported where the U-boats were. HK Groups started in 1942. Your response to this is that airplanes didn't sink boats alone until 1941.

Is that your argument? If so, then how is it relevant? Whether airplanes killed subs alone before 1941 is completely irrelevant because HK Groups started in 1942. No one suggested that HK Groups relied on airplanes alone. No one suggested that airplanes were the primary sinking force.

Your objections are completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Furthermore I direct you to http://www.uss-corry-dd463.com/d-day_u-boat_photos/hunter-killer.htm wherein we read:

...after dawn, hunter-killer teams of "Wildcats" and "Avengers" scoured the area intensively. The search took all day, but persistence paid dividends. In the waning light of day, Lt.(jg.) Norman T. Dowty sighted a periscope feather wake. He and his wingman, Lt.(jg.) William H. Cole circled, and Dowty swept in for a mine run. They dropped a sonobouy and verified the U-boat's presence as Corry sped to the scene from 15 miles away.
-------------
Planes dropping sonobouys.
-------------
U-801, was totally unaware of Block Island's approach of as she completed surface gunnery practice late on the afternoon of 16 March. Then, one of the Block Island hunter-killer teams, Lt.(jg.) Charles Woodell's "Avenger" and Lt.(jg.) Paul Sorenson's "Wildcat," rudely cut short her drills. Sorenson strafed the surfaced sub, observing hits at the base of the conning tower and inside the bridge while the U-boat's surprised crew scrambled for shelter. After Woodell aborted a bombing run, Sorenson came in for a second strafing run, noticing that fire had broken out on the bridge, apparently from exploding ammunition and burning deck planking. Woodell then made his second pass, loosing two depth bombs which overshot the submarine as she submerged at 1728. At that point, the American planes dropped sonobouys which clearly showed the submarine's track.
-------------
Again, planes dropping sonobouys.
-------------
Finally, at 0900, the new "Avenger" picked up the scent again, dropping a string of float lights to mark the spot. Corry and Bronstein then picked up the contact; and the destroyer attacked at 0942, her depth charges opening a seam in U-801's hull and forcing her skipper to dive deeper. For an hour, the U-boat evaded the attacks, but she continued to leak oil. Around 1140, Corry dropped another pattern of depth charges, and this one proved decisive. With bilge pumps and some switchboards knocked out and her periscope's power having failed, the submarine could not mount a submerged defense, so she had to come up. U-801 lurched to the surface as Block Island, screened by Thomas and Breeman, arrived to witness the last act of the drama.
-------------
Planes directing the escorts to the target.
-------------
The task group scoured the sea during daylight on the 18th and then shaped a southwesterly course that night in the hope of locating another south-bound submarine. Six hunter-killer teams launched at dawn on 19 March fanned out from the warship and covered the area within a 150-mile radius. At 0726, Lt.(jg.) Cole, in his "Wildcat", spotted a submarine ahead, to port of his heading. Flying with the early morning sun at their backs, Cole and Lt.(jg.) Dowty, had surprised the Germans completely. The new 1,100-ton U-1059 lay dead in the water while her captain, Oberleutnant zur See Günter Leopold, joined many of his crew in a morning swim.
-------------
Planes finding subs and attacking.
-------------
As the ship heeled over in her tight turn, one of two General Motors FM-2 "Wildcat" fighter planes launched overhead by Guadalcanal, sighted the submerged U-boat and dived on it, firing into the water to mark the submarine's position. Chatelain steadied up on her sound bearing and moved in for the kill. A full pattern of depth charges set for a shallow target splashed into the water around the U-boat. As their detonations threw geysers of spray into the air, a large oil slick spread on the water; the fighter plane overhead radioed "You struck oil! Sub is surfacing!" Just six and one-half minutes after Chatelain's first attack, U-505 broke the surface with its rudder jammed, lights and electrical machinery out, and water coming in.
-------------
Planes finding the sub and marking its location.
-------------

If that's not enough go to http://www.uboat.net/allies/ships/uss_bogue.htm and read about the planes finding the u-boats and directing the escorts to the sites.

[BigWalleye]

"In reality the US beat the U-boats with air power."

Have a happy New Year, Z.

[CCIP]

"In reality the US beat the U-boats with air power."


Well, since we're nitpicking, let me throw in a couple more caveats to remember:

a) Let's not forget the British and other Commonwealth forces - the role played by American ASW forces has been important but very secondary in the Battle of the Atlantic
b) Let's not forget the importance of land-based aircraft and convoy escorts to the formula - these still accounted for the vast majority of U-boat kills over the course of the war and up to its end, compared to HK groups
c) Let's not forget that the U-boats had already lost the Battle of the Atlantic (by any measure, including Doenitz's own wartime assessments) before the first true carrier-based hunter-killer groups scored their first U-boat kill

It would be more accurate to say that the HK groups filled the final gap in the Allied strategy against U-boats, and from the U-boat's perspective were just another threat. In fact it's likely that very few U-boat commanders had much understanding of what they were up against when encountering an allied HK group, and it's even less likely that any of them knew anything at all about the most effective weapon they fielded - the Mk.24 "mine" (aka the FIDO), which is not even actually modeled in SH3.

[Vince82]

Hi Guys

I hope you all had a great Christmas and are looking forward to the New Year's Eve festivities

I have a quick question. I have recently started playing SH3 with the NYGM mod, and it's great :) However, is the threat of surface vessels detecting your sub accurate? The reason I ask is that a few years back I remember downloading a mod that seemed more accurate. i.e. at the start of the war the RN detection was poor, but improved as time advanced. I felt this mod was accurate. It was great to experience the rising challenge of detection avoidance as the war years progressed and RN ASDIC technology improved

Does anyone know what this mod was? Is the NYGM mod set too aggressively for the early war period?

Cheers

Drew

It's also difficult to escape because of the hydrophone the escorts are using. If u got your enigines at slow speed they can still hear you, but setting it to 1 knot manually can help a lot.

I'm don't know the name of the mod.


@Zosimus Thank you for posting your insight about into your knowledge about anti submarine warfare. Personally I did find it interesting.