The Government You Deserve?

[Eichhörnchen]

I once heard the contentious view expressed that, by and large, people get the government they deserve.

I've often pondered this but there is, I'm sure, no definitive answer: only debate. Many factors will influence the quality of life of a population, like the attitude of the outside world to its Government, or whether or not that Government is wedded to an ideology of some kind.

We can all name countries where people have it hard, but how much is this down to them?

I'm not a politician, psychologist nor an economist, so I expect not to be making any further contribution to this thread, but I am certainly avidly awaiting any thoughts or opinions on the subject...

[Skybird]

You are German-speaking, right?

LINK (http://www.amazon.de/Die-demokratische-Krankheit-Politikerversprechen-W%C3%A4hleranspruch/dp/3957680921/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1418749512&sr=8-3&keywords=christoph+braunschweig)1

Link2 (http://www.amazon.de/Wohlfahrtsstaat-wirtschaftliche-moralische-Zerfall-Wohlfahrtsstaates/dp/3643121121/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418749512&sr=8-1&keywords=christoph+braunschweig)

Introductions, yes, covering just some aspects. But it was me from whom you heard that "contentious" remark (at least I said right that often enough), and I stick to it with regard to countries in other cultures and on other continents as well. There is no shortcuts for evolutionary development, and civilisations and societies that do not undertake certain steps, will be missing certain phases and achievments - for the better or worse then often is interpretation by those ending up in power.

[Eichhörnchen]

Thank you for your prompt response, Skybird.

I have to be honest and say that I heard this sentiment expressed long before I came to Subsim and no, I'm afraid that German isn't my first language (even though I know a fair bit) but thanks for your kind links anyway... :up:

[Onkel Neal]

In a functional democracy, people do get the government they deserve. How could it be otherwise? They selected the government.

[Wolferz]

In a functional democracy, people do get the government they deserve. How could it be otherwise? They selected the government.


It's a good thing that we are a Democratic Republic, yes?

[Eichhörnchen]

In a functional democracy, sure. But I mean in all circumstances, all countries.

[ExFishermanBob]

I think a quick review of voting systems might make you reflect on 'deserve' and democracy...and if we vote for them, surely they should be the servants, not the government.

[Eichhörnchen]

In a democracy I'm sure we all are agreed that the Government of the day are our servants. But by "government" in this question, I mean the word as used in the sense of "regime". I guess I should've been more precise there...

[Oberon]

:hmmm: That's a tricky one...in the theory, as Neal has already said, then yeah, we do...but there's so much money from large corporations and rich people entering the system and distorting it that the people at the top no longer understand the people at the bottom.
If this was not the case there would not be a rising popularity with fringe parties such as UKIP and the Tea Party. :hmmm:

[BossMark]

The government you\we deserve

Do we deserve our government-no bloody way

Did we vote for our government-also no bloody way

Over to you STEED.........

[Eichhörnchen]

:har: I maybe should've seen that coming! Someone also once said "It doesn't matter who you vote for, the bloody Government still gets in..."

[Platapus]

One of the hardest things to accept in any democratic system is that there will be times when you don't get your individual way nor will your individual opinions govern decisions.

[mapuc]

In a functional democracy, people do get the government they deserve. How could it be otherwise? They selected the government.


Could this be because the people are naive or what.

Before and election the politician say exactly the things the votes want to hear-after the election-the politician seems to have forgot that. And the votes are angry.

Markus

[Catfish]

Search for "Deep state", on the 'net.

It is no conspiracy, nor is it invincible, but it is a powerful conglomerate to shift political power into a certain direction. It does not always work, it does not even pull the same strings or is co-ordinated, but it explains [ahems] like Cheney, and how they come into possession of power.
It seems that most people duck and cover when such [ahems] arrive on the scene. And more intelligent and educated people prefer not to intervene, because this aggressive and brutal [ahem] knows no scruples. They are literally walking over the dead.

Do i deserve my chancellor? I would not want to be judged by that, however what is the alternative.
I did not vote for her, but more than 50 percent of the voting (!) majority obviously did (60-70 percent do not go to elections anymore, in Germany). It is strange that in a democracy, a professor of sociological degree has the same power, as ye olde grandma up in the mountains.

However it certainly is not so, because manipulation and influence completely overthrows the basically good intentions. I do not think the english of House of Lords and House of Commons, or the US system of electoral delegates recruiting from certain social classes, are real democracies. Neither the german ystem, of course.

Democracy was much more basic democratic back then than today (as we understand it nowadays), however it was easy to have a "democracy" while having slaves, doing the work for you – as in ancient Greece.

Some say this has never changed.

[ExFishermanBob]

Things can be changed - but it takes time and knowledge of how to work things. I would suggest searching for the "overton window".

[Mr Quatro]

The Vietnam war started in 1959 with advisors, but it can be agreed to have started in 1964 with over 200 casualties until 1975 with the fall of Saigon.

Todays politicians in the USA were either against the war in Vietnam and protesting against the draft, smoking pot or being drafted and wind up smoking pot and even worse in Vietnam.

Now they are in charge and the vote to legalize pot has already been approved for medical reasons in 15 states with recreational approval in Washington state, Oregon and Denver, Washington DC our nations capital and now as of Sunday that is, legal to grow and sell on the tribal lands of North America.

What does this have to do with society and the government you deserve?

Everything, everything is going to change ... no guarantee that it is for the better either.

[Platapus]

In a democracy I'm sure we all are agreed that the Government of the day are our servants. But by "government" in this question, I mean the word as used in the sense of "regime". I guess I should've been more precise there...

Except in a representative government where the people empower their elected representatives to make decisions on their behalf.

We simply can't have a discussion about government without bringing in some dead guys. Dead guys always seem to know more than living guys.

Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents.

Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own.

But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable.

Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion. Eddie Burke said that.

[Jeff-Groves]

A Goverment in power will do all it can to stay in power.
That's a fact jack!

Just research history and find which have changed in a peaceful way compaired to a violent change.

[Cybermat47]

A Goverment in power will do all it can to stay in power.
That's a fact jack!

Just research history and find which have changed in a peaceful way compaired to a violent change.

Yeah, governments in power will try to stay in power.

One thing that really annoys me about politicians these days is the fact that they get all this money for their election campaigns, then when they're in power, they have to cut budgets because they don't have enough money :/\\!!

Maybe if the Liberal Party (Australia's ruling party, and despite the name, the largest right-wing party in the country) spent less money on getting and staying in power, they wouldn't have cut the pay for ADF members :nope:

[Platapus]

Yeah, governments in power will try to stay in power.

One thing that really annoys me about politicians these days is the fact that they get all this money for their election campaigns, then when they're in power, they have to cut budgets because they don't have enough money :/\\!!



Well, at least in the US, monies collected for campaigns can't be used for any other purpose than campaigns. So there is no connection between campaign monies and the budget to run a country/state.

[Eichhörnchen]

Eddie Burke said that.


Eddie Burke sounds like a Top Man: I expected to see the name "Abe Lincoln" after that wonderful quote. But who Eddie Burke? I searched for the name and got (a) a Canadian Ice Hockey player and (b) a hypnotherapist. Please forgive my ignorance, Platapus...

[Platapus]

Eddie Burke sounds like a Top Man: I expected to see the name "Abe Lincoln" after that wonderful quote. But who Eddie Burke? I searched for the name and got (a) a Canadian Ice Hockey player and (b) a hypnotherapist. Please forgive my ignorance, Platapus...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke

He is also, mistakenly, known for "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

If you want to read the entire speech where I got my quote go here

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

[Skybird]

The Bush dynasty mulls the enthroning of their third member in two generations.

Thank God we do not live in this diabolic system of feudalism anymore. :88)

Or they get another Clinton, also not a scenario comedians would especially hate. Their daughter, btw, no longer rules out to start a career in - what have you guessed, politics.

Heritable feudalism, or the advantage of established brands easily recognised by the masses...

I wonder where the Kennedys are hiding since all these years? :D

The Bushs btw already prepare their latest sunny, George, 37, to send him into the race for governor's seat.

Karma means the inevitable causal link between cause and reaction. Of course a people, a civilization deserves the government that it has allowed to form up. True for Germany. For the US. For the Ukraine. ME countries. Russia. China. Even the Easter Islands before the civilization collapsed - a collapse which also was their self-made karma.

[Eichhörnchen]

He is also, mistakenly, known for "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"


Also interesting. Thanks for that: he was indeed a Top Man. :up:

[Skybird]

If you collect proverbs and quotes, this one fits:, by Mark Twain:

"If we would learn what the human race really is at bottom, we need only observe it at election time."

Much truth in that, and more complexity than is immediately apparent to the eye.

[Dan D]

"We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality." - (Ayn Rand)


With all respect, but this is waffle imo. I don't think that we share the same "reality", for one. Second, I have no idea what "reality" Ayn Rand is talking about. May be we agree, but I can't tell from just the Quote. Third, you need to define "reality" on a term we at least can all agree upon. Otherwhise we are talking Klingon or Greek or something.

In other words: I don't understand.

[Jeff-Groves]

It's OK Guys! We may be living in a simulation anyway!
:har:
http://aeon.co/magazine/science/can-we-tell-if-reality-is-a-computer-simulation/

So, IF We're in a simulation and We play Simulated War Games.
Do the People in those Simulated Games play Simulated Games themselves?
And what about the simulated simulated people?
Do they also create simulated people?

[Stealhead]

With all respect, but this is waffle imo. I don't think that we share the same "reality", for one. Second, I have no idea what "reality" Ayn Rand is talking about. May be we agree, but I can't tell from just the Quote. Third, you need to define "reality" on a term we at least can all agree upon. Otherwhise we are talking Klingon or Greek or something.

In other words: I don't understand.

I disagree the political system was a joke in Twains time if he where to see how it is today during campaign times he would feel what he said was true even more strongly than he did over one hundred years ago.

Edit: oh you are talking about the Rand quote its talking about political apathy.http://www.fluxneo.com/llbarnhart/apathy.htm

[Buddahaid]

Well, at least in the US, monies collected for campaigns can't be used for any other purpose than campaigns. So there is no connection between campaign monies and the budget to run a country/state.

Directly true but those giant contributions from big companies that are people too :down: buy influence so there is a link.

[mapuc]

Here in Denmark many of our politicians is what we call "livelihood politician"

Markus

[Skybird]

With all respect, but this is waffle imo. I don't think that we share the same "reality", for one. Second, I have no idea what "reality" Ayn Rand is talking about. May be we agree, but I can't tell from just the Quote. Third, you need to define "reality" on a term we at least can all agree upon. Otherwhise we are talking Klingon or Greek or something.

In other words: I don't understand.
Lets make this as pragmatical as possible then.

You have a pain in your tooth. You ignore it and instead of going to the dentist, you tell yourself that it will go away from alone, and that it is not meaning anything, or whatever that allows you to avoid going to the dentist. The hole in your tooth does its work, it gets deeper, and wider, the pain gets unbearable, you go almost insane. That is because you avoided to recognize the reality of that you had a hole in your tooth. You made yourself believe different, but that does not save you from the consequences: the pain almost kills you, and the tooth dies and gets pulled. You delayed the outcome, and made it worse.

Or do you think the pain you feel is not real? For having an unreal pain, you screamed surprisingly loud. And me - I have heard you for sure in what you call "my reality". Either we live in the same reality then, or our two realities are fundamentally linked.

In a way, Rand talks about what I call Karma: the inevitable causal link between cause and effect. People can deny unwanted truths and realities. They can do like little kids that play: they can do and act "as if". But real life facts still find you, inevitably, always. Doing "as if", assuming "as if things were like this and not like that", is extremely popular in politics both left and right, and modern money-printer-economics. They think that the rules of the market would bend and the nature of facts would distort on behalf of ideological ambitions and desires. This has never worked in the past, and it can never work in the future. It does not work that way, reality still presents you the bill with the costs for the ongoing ignorance, and the illusions you maintain. We currently experience the truth in that, in the slow collapse of our wellfare states, the increasing socialist regime and etatism, the growing "strong state", the financial cataclysm slowly unfolding, the faster and faster fall into the mealstrom of modern state-enforced paper-money. We spill oil into the fire everyhwere, we insist that oil is the cure, not the origin of the fire. We can assume that this helps to ease our problems, we can deny the facts. But the backblow from our illusions nevertheless will catch us, no matter what our freaking ideologies make us believe, and for what reason we fell motivated to still hold them up. Ideology moves mind, not innocent facts. You can delay the payment of the final bill, but you cannot avoid it forever. And the longer you delay it, the higher the bill in the end will be. The longer you allowed the damage to pile up, the higher the heap of garbage that you need to clean up.

There is nothing metaphysical or mysterious in Rand's quote. Its just plain reason, and sober logic. Reason and logic like in "if you spend more than you earn, you gonna get problems sooner or later."

[Eichhörnchen]

So, IF We're in a simulation and We play Simulated War Games.
Do the People in those Simulated Games play Simulated Games themselves?
And what about the simulated simulated people?
Do they also create simulated people?

I would guess not, if they're only having simulated sex :D

[Betonov]

As soon as this democracy passes, we can start living like humans again ~ Slovene saying

[Wolferz]

Basically, the Slovenian cure for anything, is to take something out of a forest, soak it in schnaps and then drink it ~ Michael Manske
Unless it's a dead skunk. It's best to leave that in the forest where it died.:yep::O:

[Jimbuna]

"Don't vote, it just encourages them." - Billy Connolly

[MGR1]

"Don't vote, it just encourages them." - Billy Connolly

As my dad always says, "If you don't get off your arse and vote, you have no right to complain about the result. If there isn't any party or individual you like, turn up anyway and deface your voting slip before dropping it into the ballot box. At least you made the attempt!":03:

As for the main drift of the thread, the SNP always say that Scotland doesn't get the government it votes for. If we did, you'd've had a permanent Labour government in the UK.

If that happened, you'd then have the Home Counties and the South East complaining about "not getting the Government they voted for"! So it cuts both ways.:hmmm:

As things are currently looking, if the SNP do as well as the polls suggest, then Scotland will never get the "Government it voted for" ever again as a constituent part of the UK. Don't ya just love it when nationalism starts dominating politics to the detriment of the real issues......!:/\\!!

Mike.

[Betonov]

As my dad always says, "If you don't get off your arse and vote, you have no right to complain about the result. If there isn't any party or individual you like, turn up anyway and deface your voting slip before dropping it into the ballot box. At least you made the attempt!":03:

http://i.imgur.com/kTiT6MR.jpg

[Eichhörnchen]

:har::rotfl2::har:

[STEED]

"Don't vote, it just encourages them." - Billy Connolly

"Don't vote" - Russel Brand

[Betonov]

:har::rotfl2::har:

That's about how serious democracy is handled here :)

[Jimbuna]

As my dad always says, "If you don't get off your arse and vote, you have no right to complain about the result. If there isn't any party or individual you like, turn up anyway and deface your voting slip before dropping it into the ballot box. At least you made the attempt!":03:

As for the main drift of the thread, the SNP always say that Scotland doesn't get the government it votes for. If we did, you'd've had a permanent Labour government in the UK.

If that happened, you'd then have the Home Counties and the South East complaining about "not getting the Government they voted for"! So it cuts both ways.:hmmm:

As things are currently looking, if the SNP do as well as the polls suggest, then Scotland will never get the "Government it voted for" ever again as a constituent part of the UK. Don't ya just love it when nationalism starts dominating politics to the detriment of the real issues......!:/\\!!

Mike.

I wonder what Salmond and Sturgeon are thinking when viewing the current price of oil and the future prediction? :hmmm:

[STEED]

I wonder what Salmond and Sturgeon are thinking when viewing the current price of oil and the future prediction? :hmmm:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2014/04/salmondSUM_1890075c.jpg

Buy Scottish oil and tell the Arabs to get stuffed.

[Jimbuna]

Buy Scottish oil and tell the Arabs to get stuffed.

More likely:

"Thank God we lost the referendum otherwise we'd be amongst the worlds most impoverished countries within a decade"

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2014/04/salmondSUM_1890075c.jpg

[MGR1]

http://i.imgur.com/kTiT6MR.jpg

Classic!!:har::up:

More likely:

"Thank God we lost the referendum otherwise we'd be amongst the worlds most impoverished countries within a decade"

----Snip----



Nope, more like sticking their heads in the sand whilst simultaneously sticking their fingers in their ears, humming very loudly and blaming it all on Westminster!:down:

Sad thing is, people will still vote for them.:Kaleun_Sick:
I think I'll vote for the Scottish Tories just to be rebellious!:D

Mike.

[August]

I wonder what Salmond and Sturgeon are thinking when viewing the current price of oil and the future prediction? :hmmm:

"If we had won we'd just blame this unexpected turn of events on the evil English"? :)

[Platapus]

As my dad always says, "If you don't get off your arse and vote, you have no right to complain about the result. If there isn't any party or individual you like, turn up anyway and deface your voting slip before dropping it into the ballot box. At least you made the attempt!":03:

I respectfully have to say that your father was mistaken. Defacing the ballot simply makes it a "spoiled Ballot". What you should do is vote by using a blank ballot. That is what is called a "null Ballot".

All the political parties (and the public) can get the numbers of null ballots. Null ballots represent a voter who cared enough to go to the polls but did not like any candidate. The parties pay attention to these numbers as each null ballot is truly a potential vote lost.

A spoiled Ballot just means that the person is too stupid to fill out a ballot correctly... or is from Florida... that may be redundant :)

[Eichhörnchen]

That's some very useful info right there. Thanks :)

[Oberon]

Not sure if it works that way in the UK or whether a null vote is counted as a spoilt ballot. :hmmm:

[Betonov]

Doesn't work here.
A null ballot = a spoilt ballot

Votes are counted in proportion to valid ballots so 20 votes fox x among 100 valid, 1200 spoilt and 2000 null is still 20% of votes

[Eichhörnchen]

How about a gnawed ballot? Does that count as a spoiled ballot?

[MGR1]

I respectfully have to say that your father was mistaken. Defacing the ballot simply makes it a "spoiled Ballot". What you should do is vote by using a blank ballot. That is what is called a "null Ballot".

All the political parties (and the public) can get the numbers of null ballots. Null ballots represent a voter who cared enough to go to the polls but did not like any candidate. The parties pay attention to these numbers as each null ballot is truly a potential vote lost.

A spoiled Ballot just means that the person is too stupid to fill out a ballot correctly... or is from Florida... that may be redundant :)

Unfortunately we don't get that option in the UK, as far as I'm aware. It's certainly never been mentioned in the instructions on the voting card that your issued with prior to election/voting day. It definitely wasn't an option when I voted in the Scottish Independence Referendum back in September.:hmmm:

Mike.

[Jimbuna]

A spoilt ballot paper is still included in the count but not attributed to any individual standing for election.

[Platapus]

Not sure if it works that way in the UK or whether a null vote is counted as a spoilt ballot. :hmmm:

Doesn't work here.
A null ballot = a spoilt ballot

Votes are counted in proportion to valid ballots so 20 votes fox x among 100 valid, 1200 spoilt and 2000 null is still 20% of votes

A null Ballot is not counted as part of the election outcome. So in that context a null Ballot and a spoiled Ballot are the same.

However, after the election, the number of null Ballots is published and the parties do pay attention if the number of null Ballots should increase.

[August]

If write in candidates invalidate a ballot then why do they provide a space for it?

[Wolferz]

We don't get paper ballots in my state anymore. They use some weird free standing electronic voting machines that don't even have a curtain around them.
The poll workers have these little gizmos that look like miniaturized eight track tape cartridges that they use to ready the machine for the next voter by plugging it into a receptacle on the side of the thing.:down:

Uber shady.:-?

[Platapus]

If write in candidates invalidate a ballot then why do they provide a space for it?

Why would a write in vote invalidate a ballot?

[Platapus]

We don't get paper ballots in my state anymore. They use some weird free standing electronic voting machines that don't even have a curtain around them.
The poll workers have these little gizmos that look like miniaturized eight track tape cartridges that they use to ready the machine for the next voter by plugging it into a receptacle on the side of the thing.:down:

Uber shady.:-?


I was so happy this past election, my country got rid of the Electronic Touch Screen voting machine and went completely paper ballot.

[Betonov]

We'll never see electronic voting devices, since old people don't know how to use them and only old people vote for the dinosaurs in power.
Putting electronic voting devices means voting themselves out of parliament

[August]

We'll never see electronic voting devices, since old people don't know how to use them and only old people vote for the dinosaurs in power.
Putting electronic voting devices means voting themselves out of parliament


I gotta say that that's a remarkably short sighted viewpoint you have.

Regardless of what age group it currently favors you should remember that electronic voting systems are far far more easily spoofed than paper ballots. Remove the "paper trail" and you're basically handing the state (or anyone else with the techical savvy) the ability to instantly and untraceably alter the results of an election.

I'm not saying that paper ballots cannot be "stuffed" as they say, but it takes a lot more effort and it's a lot harder to conceal.

[Betonov]

Don't worry August, as soon as our morons of parliament figure out how they'll benefit themselves by having electronic voting system they'll implement it.
And the machines are going to be 4 times the price with half the quality because some brother of a prime moron can install them and not get a contractor by the usual means.

We can be quire capable of forcing the government to cancel certain projects that we find, comment dites-vous, de-liberating.* But when it comes to voting we can be the biggest idiots on the planet.


* Contrary to popular belief, Slovenes enjoy an above average, even for western terms, level of personal freedom and we will know when someone is trying to hoodwink us out of it.