Gunman takes hostages in Sydney

[Cybermat47]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-30473983

At least one gunman has taken several people hostage at a cafe in the Australian city of Sydney.

Pictures on Australian television show at least three people with their hands up against a window, and a black flag with Arabic writing.

Hundreds of armed police have sealed off Martin Place in Sydney's central business district.

New South Wales police have asked people to avoid the area.

I wonder who it could be :hmmm:

Fortunately my Dad didn't go into work today.

[Schroeder]

A Buddhist monk no doubt....:shifty:

[Skybird]

...

[Rockstar]

Black Flag? Arabic writing? Probably Arabian Coffee growers union protesting Lindt's decsion not to use their beans. Local issue nothing to see here, move along.

[GoldenRivet]

Good thing they have all that gun control

[Jeff-Groves]

Good thing they have all that gun control

:haha:
Guess the only way to prevent this in the future is to outlaw Cafes.
:hmmm:

[Dread Knot]

I think we should wait and see what develops here before leaping on our favorite hobby horse one-size-fits-all social theories and solutions.

From all reports it does sound like there is only gunman involved holding these unfortunate people. Seems like he's gotta sleep sometime. :hmmm:

[Tango589]

There seems to be a slight element of farce about this, as the gunman appears to have the wrong flag and has requested the Australian authorities give him the correct one.:doh:

[Oberon]

I think we should wait and see what develops here before leaping on our favorite hobby horse one-size-fits-all social theories and solutions.

From all reports it does sound like there is only gunman involved holding these unfortunate people. Seems like he's gotta sleep sometime. :hmmm:

That's never stopped GT before.

Yeah, NSW police have done well to get as many people out as they have, sounds as though a reasonable line of communication has been set up between the police and the hostage-taker. It's just a question of keeping him engaged and if there is only one person then de-escalating him and keeping him rational as he gets more and more fatigued.
The Aussie police are pretty good at this, I just hope that the Prime Sinister doesn't use this as an excuse to lurch even more right-wing, but that's politics for you.
Keep cool Aussie-land, the odds were even for this happening, it'll probably happen in other western countries before the decade is out, we are at war after all and this is how the enemy strikes back at us. What we mustn't do is do what the enemy wants us to do, and that's to isolate and alienate other Muslims in our nations so that they too feel that there is no choice but to go and join IS.
And in regards to guns... :nope: Yes, I'm sure that a shoot-out in the cafe would have ended with no casualties to innocent bystanders... :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

Five people have left the building but it's not certain whether they escaped or were released.

The police have the area contained so it's now a waiting game, he isn't going anywhere....unless of course he starts harming the hostages, then a swift and abrupt end will certainly ensue.

[Betonov]

If he doesn't have a dead mans switch on his backpack, get the snipers to take a shot when the opportunity arises.

But talking him out, we're dealing with a lone amateur here, is an option.

[Oberon]

If he doesn't have a dead mans switch on his backpack, get the snipers to take a shot when the opportunity arises.

But talking him out, we're dealing with a lone amateur here, is an option.

I think he's probably thought of that, hence why he has people up at the window with the flag, to try and block the view of snipers into the cafe.
To be honest, with the amount of films and TV programs showing hostage stand-offs it's drilled into most people that there's always a sniper on stand-by ready to take the shot if needed, so the first thing you do is block his line of sight.
Of course, as he gets more tired he's going to make a mistake, just hopefully it's not one that gets people killed.
Is he armed with explosives? I've only seen reports of a firearm being involved...probably best not to underestimate his destructive potential I guess.
The fact that people have exited the scene alive so far is a good sign, the guy seems young and inexperienced, his plan is not particularly well thought out, so that's a 50/50 thing, it'll mean he can either be talked down and de-escalated or it means he'll feel that he's in a corner and everything is going wrong, in which case he might lash out. The job of the negotiator at the scene will be pushing him gently towards the former rather than the latter.

[Betonov]

I don't know what would happen here. We never had a hostage situation.
There were cases of domestic violence that turned to a hostage situation, but the situation defused before the police arrived. A drunken idiot with a gun (not enough gun control if you ask me here) realizing what he's doing or he just shoots himself.

[Jimbuna]

Is he armed with explosives? I've only seen reports of a firearm being involved...probably best not to underestimate his destructive potential I guess.

I think the authorities will have no other option other than to presume he has but they do know who he is and what his list of demands are so they should have a pretty accurate profile on whom they are dealing with.

Witnesses saw a man with a bag and gun walk into the Lindt chocolate shop and cafe.
An armed man wearing a backpack and a bandana could be seeing walking around inside the cafe.
Police have identified the gunman and he is well known to them, Australian media report.

News organisations also say the suspect has contacted them to issue demands, which police have urged media not to report.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-30473983

[Skybird]

Those hostages have drawn the a..-card, but so be it, it cannot be helped. The terrorist is not to escape and his demands are not to be fulfilled, I hope this is crystalclear to the authorities.

German media say the terrorist is a known customer to the police. The five people getting out, escaped, and were not released.

He is reported to have four bombs. Whether they are real or just fake, is not known.

[Schroeder]

Those hostages have drawn the a..-card, but so be it, it cannot be helped. The terrorist is not to escape and his demands are not to be fulfilled, I hope this is crystalclear to the authorities.

German media say the terrorist is a known customer to the police. The five people getting out, escaped, and were not released.

He is reported to have four bombs. Whether they are real or just fake, is not known.
Let's hope he becomes a martyr without anyone else buying it.

[Onkel Neal]

Good thing they have all that gun control

No kidding. Just imagine if one or two of the hostages was a CHL owner. I bet the terrorist didn't even pause to consider someone might be armed and able to defend themselves. He didn't have to. Just needed to round them up like sheep, they're harmless.

[Oberon]

Because the United States has never had a hostage situation... :haha:

[Onkel Neal]

Sure they have, we have plenty of sheep here too. :haha::haha::haha::haha:

[Rockstar]

There seems to be a slight element of farce about this, as the gunman appears to have the wrong flag and has requested the Australian authorities give him the correct one.:doh:


A farce is a comedy meant to entertain the audience.

Seriously the flag in that cafe is the standard of Islam. It has written on the Shahada and though it may not always be directly linked to terrorism. It is a very very common statement of the Islamic faith.

[Tchocky]

Hmm.

For anyone banging on about gun control - take a couple of minutes to familiarise yourself with Australia's history with public firearm ownership.

One hostage situation does not a compelling argument make.

[Oberon]

Sure they have, we have plenty of sheep here too.

And the risks of ricochets? :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

... He is reported to have four bombs. Whether they are real or just fake, is not known.


Lets not jump to conclusions they must be fake. That kind of stuff and firearms are illegal. He is probaby keeping everyone at bay using stern looks or threatening to pee in their tea cups.

[Rockstar]

And the risks of ricochets? :hmmm:


Ricochet are my concern too, that and over penetration. Which is why I prefer to use #4 buckshot rather than 00 for home defense. Gun Control is being able to hit your target only.

[Oberon]

The gunman has been named as Man Monis, he's a 49 year old Iranian from Sydney. He even has his own wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Haron

ABCnews is streaming here:
http://abcnews.go.com/Live/

[Oberon]

That is my concern too, that and over penetration. Which is why I prefer to use #4 buckshot rather than 00 for home defense. Gun Control is being able to hit your target only.

That's fair enough, but not everyone would think that way which leads to the risk of innocent bystanders being wounded or killed by the gunfire.

[Onkel Neal]

And the risks of ricochets? :hmmm:

Versus the risk of execution head shots for 10 people?

[Oberon]

Versus the risk of execution head shots for 10 people?

A valid point, admittedly.

[Schroeder]

No kidding. Just imagine if one or two of the hostages was a CHL owner. I bet the terrorist didn't even pause to consider someone might be armed and able to defend themselves. He didn't have to. Just needed to round them up like sheep, they're harmless.
So you think 30.000 gun fatalities in the US per year are a good trade for one or two hostage situations like that per year?:doh:

[Dread Knot]

I'd be curious to know what this guy is doing when his bladder begins to complain.

"I'll be skipping to the loo for a moment. Consider yourselves still at gunpoint please."

[Oberon]

I'd be curious to know what this guy is doing when his bladder begins to complain.

"I'll be skipping to the loo for a moment. Consider yourselves still at gunpoint please."

"Here, look after this gun for a minute. I'll be right back."

[Dread Knot]

"Here, look after this gun for a minute. I'll be right back."

Hopefully those resourceful Aussie hostages are plying him lots of cups of with coffee and caffeinated fizzy drinks. :)

"Drink more. You'll need this to stay awake, mate."

[Skybird]

An Iranian.

A refugee.

A repeated criminal offender.

Who was on bail.

Obviously an Islamic State sympathiser.

:hmph: Lovely.

Especially the refugee part. Thugs coming from other countries and the abusing the refuge given to them to rape their hosts - this sort of bastards I like best.

[Dread Knot]

Iranian. Hostage. Crisis.

Paging Jimmy Carter. :-?

[Dowly]

5-6 hostages escaped/were released just now.

http://i.imgur.com/7lRDYAi.jpg

[Dowly]

Police went in, flashbangs and gunfire. :doh:

[MH]

So you think 30.000 gun fatalities in the US per year are a good trade for one or two hostage situations like that per year?:doh:

The difference is that by owning a guns you are sort of master of your destiny.
This may be sometimes an illusion but plays well with American individualism.
Without as gun one is just the statistics.

[Oberon]

Optimal time really, he'd be tiring, needing the toilet, his rationality would be decreasing, so if he is determined not to surrender or become a martyr then he'd be likely to escalate.
A bomb disposal robot is going in apparently, so it looks like Man is either subdued or dead and his backpack is being secured.

[V13dweller]

Police go in, all remaining hostages escaped, perp is presumed dead, as the police have left the premises.

4 possible injuries from what I gather.

As an Australian, I am surprised it is being followed by other nations, and so closely.

A spectacular light show from inside, I dare say, most Australian Standoff's don't last this long, most don't involve firearms, and most take place in houses.


EDIT: Police Announce the Siege is OFFICIALLY Over. 23:49 AWDT.

[Dread Knot]

Optimal time really, he'd be tiring, needing the toilet*

*A form of self-torture known under the Geneva Conventions as water-hoarding. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. :nope:

[Skybird]

What a scumbag he seems to be. Known for having sent hate-mails to the families of fallen Australian soldiers. Suspected to have murdered his wife, but could not be proven. Several charges for sexual abuse.

Too bad he did not end with a bullet in his head. Instead: a huge waste of tax money. Or is he dead? Let's hope for the best.

[V13dweller]

Police are yet to release the details.

This kind of situation is not a Waste of Money, if you understand this kind of situation, you'd understand why.

Politics, public opinion, backlash and Media Circus.

Pretty sure they get paid the same, regardless if they are rescuing hostages or not.

[Dowly]

Too bad he did not end with a bullet in his head. Instead: a huge waste of tax money. Or is he dead? Let's hope for the best.
Nothing confirmed, but the police fired number of rounds as they went in. Injured or dead would be my bet.

[V13dweller]

Apparently, just in, 2 deaths and 3 injuries. (Unconfirmed)

[Rockstar]

That's fair enough, but not everyone would think that way which leads to the risk of innocent bystanders being wounded or killed by the gunfire.


Very true not everyone does think about these things. However myself and the people I associate with do, we are called responsible gun owners and take that moniker seriously. We don't own these tools for the sake of commiting crimes, terrorizing people, to rob another, murder or establish neighborhood boundaries.

Ownership simply satisfies our desire to defend our homes, exercise our 2nd amendment right from time to time at the range and periodically place food on the table. And yes the thought of strays concerns me, but not being able to do more than just sit there with my thumb up my arse while an intruder is in my home concerns me much more.

"I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six."

[V13dweller]

Possibly dead.
2 dead, 3 injured.

~Source, India Today
~Reddit, Sydney Siege live coverage.
Nothing from any Australian sources, many conflicting news outlets.

Standing by for anything new, from a local source.

ABC News 24 is broadcasting Live from here, http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/

They are being careful to only show information that is Confirmed.

[V13dweller]

Channel 9 confirms 2 people dead, one is the Gunman.

Approx. 9 people inside when the police entered, No Officers have been harmed.

Edit: All hostages accounted for, the current status is unknown, but one hostage was seen in critical condition, Police are yet to confirm. ~Reddit Live Stream, Sydney Siege.

For reference, the gunman's name is "Man Haron Monis"

[Tchocky]

https://cujo359.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/breaking_news_handbook-on_the_media.jpeg

[V13dweller]

If that tag is at me, I am taking care to Quote, rather than confirm anything myself, I am just providing information from the Reddit Live stream and ABC News 24 (Which I am watching live)

And the ABC is only providing info they can confirm.

http://www.reddit.com/live/u2pwph99rvy6

If you don't want me doing that, I won't.

[Skybird]

This kind of situation is not a Waste of Money,
I meant the legal circus that were about to begin in case he survived, and the prison costs.

[V13dweller]

All hostages have been taken to hospital. One hostage with a gun-shot wound to her shoulder.
Source: 9 News Broadcast


From the Reddit Stream.

@Skybird, having him rot in prison is a more suitable punishment than death, rather see him there than dead, death is an escape.

[Tchocky]

If that tag is at me, I am taking care to Quote, rather than confirm anything myself, I am just providing information from the Reddit Live stream and ABC News 24 (Which I am watching live)

And the ABC is only providing info they can confirm.

http://www.reddit.com/live/u2pwph99rvy6

If you don't want me doing that, I won't.


Not directed at you at all, mate. Just something worth remembering for everyone in situations like this. :up:

[V13dweller]

Good to hear, just trying not to be a problem here.

"The AP is reporting a Sydney Hospital Official is stating at least one hostage is going to a local hospital for a believed gunshot wound to the leg." ~Multiple AP reports, live stream.

EDIT: 1:13 AWST, no new information is coming in for now, luckily I have no work to go to tomorrow, so I can keep covering this. :D

[V13dweller]

The police plan to hold a full briefing at 5:00 AM AEDT.

[Jimbuna]

Well wherever this gunman ends up, I hope they're fresh out of virgins.

[V13dweller]

Them ABC and the Police have confirmed the gunman Man Haron Monis is dead.

Thank god this is finally over, though it is not over for the families of those involved, I hope they get the support they need.
A major briefing will take place between 5:00 and 5:30 AEDT.

Well I have to head off now, it's 2:10 AWST, good night.

Edit: death count rises to 3 as a man and woman in their 30's have been killed.
4 people are also injured including a police officer. This is all confirmed by police.

The press conference has been delayed and will be starting soon, follow that ABC News 24 link for live coverage.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Finnish national broadcaster YLE reports three casualties: hostage taker, hostage and police officer.

BBC reports that 34-year old man and 38-year old woman died along the hostage taker. No mention on whether they were hostages or not.

[Onkel Neal]

It's a miracle more weren't killed. Thankfully, the Aussie police were very competent in dealing with this.

[Skybird]

@Skybird, having him rot in prison is a more suitable punishment than death, rather see him there than dead, death is an escape.
I am not about punishment when considering death "penalties", but prevention of future events/deeds that i do not want to become real. A death penalty is no penalty, but a deletion.

If it were about punishment a la "an eye for an eye", then only the victims suffering damage/losses can determine the quantity and quality of said punishment, from "none" (forgiveness) to an equal amount of what the victim suffered in losses/pain - and not more the penalty should be allowed to be. Additionally there must be damage compensation, which itself is not part of "punishment". Compensation, and punishment are two different things.

Or you consider punishment to be a psychological tool to alter the behavior of the deliquent in such a way that he will not do again what he is being punished for, that is being reached by exposing him to aversive stimuli of such a nature that he will try hard to avoid ever getting exposed to them again.

Modern law does not understand either the one^, or the other^^. Social reintegration is its focus. On that basis one should also agree to conduct brain surgery and genetic therapy if that would be found to alter the subject'S behavior in the desired way: to fit into the framework of socially accepted behavior. Of course - this implication is easily dismissed by most, and does not get understood or accepted by most. But its true.

A religious fanatic feeling like a martyr is not being punished by locking him in prison. It confirms to him that he is a martyr and that his suffering is a service to his god(s) he believes in. Why wasting money for that?

[Cybermat47]

It's a miracle more weren't killed. Thankfully, the Aussie police were very competent in dealing with this.

Agreed. The NSW Police are a great bunch.

It's a shame the gunman died. I would've liked to have seen him on trial, and rotting in prison (we don't have the death penalty here). As it is, he'll probably be made a Martyr by some idiots.

It's dreadful that two of the hostages were killed, but it could have been much worse. Still, I can't imagine what their families are going through right now.

I've been impressed by the Islamic community's response to this. They did the usual (sane) thing and condemned the gunman, but one Mosque (the closest to the siege, I think) actually went as far as to host a inter-faith prayer vigil for the hostages. While the gunman was spreading a message of hate in the name of Islam, his fellow Muslims were inviting a Rabbi into a Mosque.

[Betonov]

I've been impressed by the Islamic community's response to this. They did the usual (sane) thing and condemned the gunman, but one Mosque (the closest to the siege, I think) actually went as far as to host a inter-faith prayer vigil for the hostages. While the gunman was spreading a message of hate in the name of Islam, his fellow Muslims were inviting a Rabbi into a Mosque.

Too bad the media will somehow forget to look into this

[d@rk51d3]

Agreed. The NSW Police are a great bunch.

It's a shame the gunman died. I would've liked to have seen him on trial, and rotting in prison .......

We had that chance already, and our legal system lubed up and bent over for him. :mad:

[Jeff-Groves]

What FireArm did he have and where did he get it?
We all know Laws prevent this type thing.

[Rockstar]

What FireArm did he have and where did he get it?
We all know Laws prevent this type thing.


You know what they say: "It isn't illegal until ya get caught"

[Jeff-Groves]

You know what they say: "It isn't illegal until ya get caught"

But from all the past 'Gun Laws Solve everything' threads?
Surely this should not have happened down under!
Or could it be, no, it can't be!
Takeing Gun ownership from Law abideing people doesn't work?
WT??
:har:

[Oberon]

It sure helped in Pennsylvania today.

[Oberon]

Anyway, this has got nothing to do with gun control, and to be honest I think it's pretty disrespectful to those who have died here today to try and wedge some kind of political diatribe into it. :nope:

[eddie]

:sign_yeah:

[TorpX]

Anyway, this has got nothing to do with gun control, and to be honest I think it's pretty disrespectful to those who have died here today to try and wedge some kind of political diatribe into it. :nope:

Of course, if it is a anti-American, or gun control "political diatribe", that's completely different. :rolleyes:

[Jeff-Groves]

Anyway, this has got nothing to do with gun control, and to be honest I think it's pretty disrespectful to those who have died here today to try and wedge some kind of political diatribe into it. :nope:
And here all along I thought the British were masters at off brand humor.
Thank You for correcting that mistaken thought.
I hoped you ducked at the irony of several old threads as relate to this.
Then again? You probably cringe at some of Monty Pythons work.
Simple minds and such.
To each his own I say.
:D
Oh. And please feel free to report my posts if they offend you and your safe little world.
I travel, work, and live in some of the worst places in the U.S.A. you can be thankful you will never see.

[Oberon]

And here all along I thought the British were masters at off brand humor.
Thank You for correcting that mistaken thought.
I hoped you ducked at the irony of several old threads as relate to this.
Then again? You probably cringe at some of Monty Pythons work.
Simple minds and such.
To each his own I say.
:D
Oh. And please feel free to report my posts if they offend you and your safe little world.
I travel, work, and live in some of the worst places in the U.S.A. you can be thankful you will never see.

I give up with this place, I really do. Whatever happened to tact? And respect for other people? When the Boston bomber did his thing, did we start making jokes about the US?
I mean, seriously, two people have died today and all you guys can talk about is gun control, sitting there gloating because you think that gun control is the ultimate answer?
Quite sickening if I'm honest.
I don't care if you think I'm from some fluffy world, I don't really care what parts of the US have been seen or not seen, I just thought, for one deluded stupid minute that this forum was meant to be run with some decorum and respect. Stupid me.
What a ****ing joke. :nope:

[Jeff-Groves]

An now may you understand why I gave up the privateer account.
We, and I mean you and I and others can not make a comment that is not distorted no matter how hard we try to phrase it for proper reading.
You think I like that people died?
Am I serious about goading some that made big issues about Laws that should be passed in MY Country? (Well, that one Yes)
I really enjoyed your point of view on alot of things but if your gonna tap out?
I'm probably not far behind you.
(You didn't answer me about Monty Python!)

[Cybermat47]

Okay, never mind my last post (easy to do, I just deleted it). I think everyone's just gone slightly crazy from all the disgusting **** that's been going on. And it is the end of the year.

Let's just take a deep breath, and get away from our computers for a bit.


Let's focus on what we have in common, rather than our differences.

[Oberon]

For what it's worth, and this is rather off-topic, but when it's come to the whole gun control thing I've always tried to understand both sides of the story. I'm neither pro- or anti- when it comes to American gun control laws. It is, after all, a purely American situation and nothing that I say or do will influence the US congress. I have expressed viewpoints on the situation, and heard viewpoints in return and I'm not about to turn around and say to Americans "You shouldn't have guns", if I would say anything it would be "I guess you have to accept the risks that come with guns, such as police that are armed like the military and schools that look like prisons"
Again, this is all off-topic.

Now, Jeff...if I have misread your intentions (and I'm starting to realise that I think I have), then I apologise, but when I come into a thread like this and the fifth comment is a rather gloating "Good thing they have all that gun control", then honestly I get rather annoyed at the insensitivity of the people involved.
Compare and contrast with the responses to the Boston bombings:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=203749

Sure, we got into the old Yubba/Bubblehead game, but the tone was much more respectful from the non-Americans to the Americans. Why was the same respect not returned in this instance? :hmmm:

That's really the thing that grinds me gears in this instance. But...I seem to be expecting too much from some people these days. I don't know about tapping out, God knows I've come damn close over the past few months but I know too many good people here to do that, so I guess you're stuck with me. :03:

Oh, and in regards to Monty Python, well...that's something completely different. :03:

[Stealhead]

This seems fitting in some strange way.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMBsZC-FJNE

[Jeff-Groves]

My god, do you people have any respect at all? Two people were killed, but you don't even care about that. You just want to lord it over us, because we have gun control. Guess what? The Prime Minister who put that law into effect has been retired for years, nearly a decade. A lot of people I know in this country are against gun control. So shut up, you're preaching to the converted.

Act like adults. Show respect to the people who have died. Show respect to the families that have been torn apart. Show respect to the people who are still in shock from their ordeal.


3 people died in Sidney. Guess what? Chicago hasn't reported in for the daily kill.
An hour south of me? Probably 3 or 4 deaths.
Am I a bit hardened to it all? I have to be. It's where I live. Not some place on TV News but where I dwell.
I don't live in a wishful world where everything is rosy and Daddy takes care of me.
I work amoungst heroin and meth addicts that will just as soon stab me for a buck as ask for a handout.
Act like an adult? Ya. I do that. I insure I come home alive and my home is protected, bills are payed, and I put fear into anyone local that threatens my abode.

I jumped out of AirCraft and completed my assigned missions to preserve my rights.
If that offends you? There's a project that is looking for Sesame Street.

DANG IT! Now you make me look like a Richard by your deleteing your post! Oh! Wait I am! :)

[Jeff-Groves]

General Topics?
:haha:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY

[Oberon]

Alrighty, let's just all step back for a bit here.
We've all said things in the heat of things in this thread, we've gotten things off our chests and let's just step back and calm down for a bit.
I understand how the Aussies must be feeling, I felt the same way in the weeks after 7/7. Sure, more people may die in one week in Chicago, but it doesn't make the news in the way that this did, internationally, because it doesn't have the magic trigger word 'Muslim' in it. :03:

This isn't a thread about gun control, this isn't a thread about dark humour, it's a thread about Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson, and all those who survived being taken hostage by a madman for seventeen hours. If people want to open up a thread to discuss the average week in inner Chicago or Detroit then that's fair enough, but otherwise, honestly, it has no real place in this thread.

So let's just put our keyboards down, and move on.

[Cybermat47]

3 people died in Sidney. Guess what? Chicago hasn't reported in for the daily kill.
An hour south of me? Probably 3 or 4 deaths.
Am I a bit hardened to it all? I have to be. It's where I live. Not some place on TV News but where I dwell.
I don't live in a wishful world where everything is rosy and Daddy takes care of me.
I work amoungst heroin and meth addicts that will just as soon stab me for a buck as ask for a handout.
Act like an adult? Ya. I do that. I insure I come home alive and my home is protected, bills are payed, and I put fear into anyone local that threatens my abode.

I jumped out of AirCraft and completed my assigned missions to preserve my rights.
If that offends you? There's a project that is looking for Sesame Street.

Well... that puts things into perspective :-?

DANG IT! Now you make me look like a Richard by your deleteing your post! Oh! Wait I am! :)

:har:

Nevermind, that post was stupid anyway, can hardly complain about you calling stupidity out :D


So let's just put our keyboards down, and move on.

I'm on a tablet :)

[Cybermat47]

On the bright side, I think we can all agree that Rupert Murdoch is a bastard.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2014/12/16/gleeful-ghoul-murdochs-bloody-outcome-gaffe/

[Oberon]

On the bright side, I think we can all agree that Rupert Murdoch is a bastard.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2014/12/16/gleeful-ghoul-murdochs-bloody-outcome-gaffe/


Aye, there's going to be a lot of cashing in on this by both the media and the politicians. I dread to think what the Prime Sinister is going to use this as ammunition for. :nope:

[V13dweller]

The Murdoch Media Empire always swarm on these kind of issues.

Watching the ABC is far better than any Murdoch owned enterprise.

[Oberon]

I must admit, for the brief time I watched/listened to it yesterday I found ABC to be a quite refreshingly balanced broadcasting service.
Full credit to them, they kept their cool and kept it balanced. :yep:

[V13dweller]

They take care to only share information they can verify themselves, they are always highly reliable too.

The Advantages of a Government Owned News Channel. :D

[Dread Knot]

http://tas.awu.net.au/sites/tas.awu.net.au/files/shared/awu-thumbnail/flag_half_mast_2_0.jpg

[STEED]

Peace on Earth...:rolleyes:

Just another terrible event to the list and more on the way.

[eddie]

Meanwhile some more nuts with guns go crazy.
If only the people in the army district of Peshawar with all its soldiers on a state of high alert had had guns maybe the perpetrators of this terrible crime would have thought differently and chosen a target where they wouldn't have to run the risk of encountering people with guns.

Can't imagine what that would have been like to have all those children killed in a school around here. My heart goes out for them and their families, such a tragic loss of life.

[Oberon]

A terrible event in Peshawar, one I fear that will only be repeated in the area in years to come. I do feel sorry for the people in the region, they don't deserve the terror that has befallen them.

[Eichhörnchen]

I can only ponder how I'd have feltl if I got the news that it had been at my boy's school...

[Dread Knot]

I do wonder if this may be a watershed moment in Pakistan. For years there have been several different flavors of Taliban operating there. The Pakistan government and Army 'sort of' support the outfit operating in Kashmir as it furthers their political and territorial ambitions there. They also tolerate the outfit operating in Afghanistan. There is another 'Pakistan Taliban' that is indigenous to the country and is set on overthrowing the nominaly secular government.

It seems the politicians and various of the 'ruling class' won't admit to this and always try to deflect blame for their attacks elsewhere. Maybe this attack will finally make them realize what the Army have been telling them for years. That they need support in their efforts to root them out and that all the Taliban are interconnected. This attack is so utterly beyond the pale that it may finally persuade the government, most parties, the army and -who knows- even the secret service, to stamp these guys out once and for all.

However, If such a goal is attainable at this date I just don't know.

[Oberon]

The Army might well just kick the ruling class out again and sort things out themselves. It wouldn't be the first time. The ISI have tended to lean towards the Taliban as brothers of the faith though, but you're right, pressure is mounting and something is going to give at some point soon.

[Dread Knot]

pressure is mounting and something is going to give at some point soon.

Possibly. When it conflicts with our comfortable ideology we humans seem to have quite a tolerance for atrocity. The Sandy Hook school shootings were just two years ago last Sunday and they barely got a mention in my part of the US.

[Oberon]

Possibly. When it conflicts with our comfortable ideology we humans seem to have quite a tolerance for atrocity. The Sandy Hook school shootings were just two years ago last Sunday and they barely got a mention in my part of the US.

I guess repeated exposure to such things dulls the shock value of it. Which brings us back to Jeffs comments earlier and the comparitive reactions between Americans and Australians over yesterdays events in Sydney. For an American it's just another day at the office, for an Australian it's pretty shocking.

That, or it's the age old situation of an unstoppable force (massacre of children by guns) hitting an immovable object (in the US the 2nd Amendment, in Pakistan the ISI/governments links to the Taliban and their reluctance to persue them). :hmmm:

[eddie]

This was a sad event down in OZ, sorry to see something like this happen. What is hard to come to grips with is the revenge factor. But just like the lone wolf attacks anywhere else, how do you get revenge? Most of the time, the bad guy is killed during the attack, and all you are left with is questions of why did this have to happen here? Why did these people have to die who didn't do anything but be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then its easy to fall into that trap of blaming a whole group of people for the act of one idiot.

So what are we left with, how do we react. With compassion for those who who are directly affected by this tragedy and the resolve to keep going, I guess. Not much more you can do against lone wolfs.

[Eichhörnchen]

I believe eddie has expressed above what ought to be the sentiments of all right-minded people everywhere.

[Jeff-Groves]

The attack on children? Cowardly in the most intense form of the word.
Any group that would allow/approve such a thing should be hunted down and exterminated.
In that area of the Globe? I could see Tribal Warfare breaking out as they do keep the revenge thing alive.

[Buddahaid]

Your outrage at their "cowardice" doesn't mean a thing to them so don't waste your brain cells. This was all about creating terror to make a political religious point from people who do not value the lives of others.

[Oberon]

I believe eddie has expressed above what ought to be the sentiments of all right-minded people everywhere.

Agreed, the important thing is not to let them cow you, or force you into changing yourself in reaction. It's hard not to, all of us have changed since 9/11, but they want to force people into the 'them or us' mindset in order to draw more people to their cause.

[eddie]

Oberon, what has happened in Sydney is a painful reminder for Americans as to what happened on 9/11, the shootings at Fort Hood, Sandy Hook, and the mass shootings at the theater in Denver. Its not another day at the office for us, its a painful reminder of what has happened here, especially for those who were directly affected by these senseless acts. I bet when the news got to the UK as to what happened down under, those who lost loved ones in the subway bombing in London suffered from painful memories also. How anyone could not be moved by these acts, must be numb, we sure aren't over here. We will help and stand by our friends in Australia just like we would for our friends in the UK. When something like this happens in OZ, like you said it is shocking, but its painful for us too!

[Oberon]

Oberon, what has happened in Sydney is a painful reminder for Americans as to what happened on 9/11, the shootings at Fort Hood, Sandy Hook, and the mass shootings at the theater in Denver. Its not another day at the office for us, its a painful reminder of what has happened here, especially for those who were directly affected by these senseless acts. I bet when the news got to the UK as to what happened down under, those who lost loved ones in the subway bombing in London suffered from painful memories also. How anyone could not be moved by these acts, must be numb, we sure aren't over here. We will help and stand by our friends in Australia just like we would for our friends in the UK. When something like this happens in OZ, like you said it is shocking, but its painful for us too!

And yet there seems to be an almost, numbed reaction to school shootings these days. Even the news outlets seem that way:

http://media.giphy.com/media/de39RGpTmA7lK/giphy.gif

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0glTXRzL48I

[ikalugin]

There is no shortage of people on this forum who gladly show their approval at attacks on children and go to great lengths to support their views and to demonstrate that in their view attacks on children can be justified.

So are you suggesting that those forum members should be exterminated?
Err who are those people?

[Schroeder]

With a few notable exceptions they would be some Americans on the right of the political spectrum(American political spectrum) who consider themselves patriots.
Their view on whether killing children is acceptable and justifiable or an atrocity which obviously should be condemned will tend to vary between the two based solely on who it is who did the killing.
Maybe I missed a couple of posts but I don't think I've ever seen someone here who openly said that the intended murder of children would be justifiable. We're not talking "collateral damage" here but intended murder with no other target but the children.

[Rockstar]

somebody has been sneeking into the liquor cabinet again. :har::har::har:

[Skybird]

"I will ride with you"...? Serious?

http://boess.welt.de/2014/12/17/moslems-stalken-fuer-den-guten-zweck/

A German piece. You can try to digest the autobot-translation by Google here:

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fboess.welt.de%2F2014%2F12%2F17%2Fmo slems-stalken-fuer-den-guten-zweck%2F&edit-text=

Hit "translate", and scratch your head. The core point nevertheless may be understandable.

[Jimbuna]

There is no shortage of people on this forum who gladly show their approval at attacks on children and go to great lengths to support their views and to demonstrate that in their view attacks on children can be justified.

So are you suggesting that those forum members should be exterminated?

Seriously outrageous and potentially grossly offensive to members of this community.

Seeing as I'm not 'the magic deletion fairy' (a name you invented here) and are currently online at my time of posting this I'll give you one hour to qualify, justify, or retract the above statement (3pm GMT).

[Oberon]

Tribesman has a valid point, insulting or not. The amount of people who have suggested nuking the Middle East or that all Muslims are the enemy must include children in their targets, including but not limited to the recent Nobel prize winning Malala who, despite being attacked by radical Islamists, is still a Muslim. :hmmm:

[MH]

Yeah!!! nuke them all....


http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000963765/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86d9c09970b_pi_xlarge.jpeg


:O:

Now i'm crazy right winger too.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/df/dfabd7be4f76faff62acde778b4adaa6ae3ae636258e418f6b ef62516e7368de.jpg

Not quite entire though.

[Dowly]

Oh wow... :88)

[Rockstar]

Tribesman has a valid point, insulting or not. The amount of people who have suggested nuking the Middle East or that all Muslims are the enemy must include children in their targets, including but not limited to the recent Nobel prize winning Malala who, despite being attacked by radical Islamists, is still a Muslim. :hmmm:


Maybe you could find where an American on this forum said nuke'em all. I went back six months and found only one person who said that and according to his profile he from Europe. However I do believe it was made in jest, no harm no foul in my book :hmmm::)

[Rockstar]

Yeah!!! nuke them all....


http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000963765/6a0120a85dcdae970b0120a86d9c09970b_pi_xlarge.jpeg


:O:

Now i'm crazy right winger too.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/df/dfabd7be4f76faff62acde778b4adaa6ae3ae636258e418f6b ef62516e7368de.jpg

Not quite entire though.

LOL thiis coming from a guy at ground zero.

[Oberon]

Maybe you could find where an American on this forum said nuke'em all. I went back six months and found only one person who said that and according to his profile he from Europe. However I do believe it was made in jest, no harm no foul in my book :hmmm::)

Oh, I'm not pointing specific fingers, and most of the people who say such things not in jest are...special...but there are people who say such things, and people who state that they consider all of Islam to be the enemy. :hmmm:

[Rockstar]

Oh, I'm not pointing specific fingers, and most of the people who say such things not in jest are...special...but there are people who say such things, and people who state that they consider all of Islam to be the enemy. :hmmm:


Considering the source of this arguement, I have absolutley no desire to go any further with it. Ober-wan, you're good people and a great asset to this community. Your opinion counts here and even though you have disagreed with others, you are amongst many others here who seem to be able to do it with such remarkable tact. I learn from you and them.

I also have learned from another old timer here How to use the ignore list for a certain someone. Which if certain someones had not quoted the certain someone. I would have never have known of such a helpful contributon to the community existed. THANKS Ikalugin and Schroeder!

I say we leave it at that instead of squabbling over what someone I choose to ignore said. Otherwise I would be lying if I said I was ignoring it. You don't want me to lie do you? :D

[Oberon]

Considering the source of this arguement, I have absolutley no desire to go any further with it. Ober-wan, you're good people and a great asset to this community. Your opinion counts here and even though you have disagreed with others, you are amongst many others here who seem to be able to do it with such remarkable tact. I learn from you and them.

I also have learned from another old timer here How to use the ignore list for a certain someone. Which if certain someones had not quoted the certain someone. I would have never have known of such a helpful contributon to the community existed. THANKS Ikalugin and Schroeder!

I say we leave it at that instead of squabbling over what someone I choose to ignore said. Otherwise I would be lying if I said I was ignoring it. You don't want me to lie do you? :D


http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/377/882/2882377.gif

You do not need to continue this discussion.

Move along please. :03:

It's all cool Rockstar, and thank you. :yep: