New Alan Turing Film [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Jimbuna

11-17-14, 02:07 PM

Good or bad news and reviews, Jim? BTW, Cumberbatch just last week won the Best Actor Aware at the "Hollywood Film Awards" the first awards ceremony of the so-called "awards season" here in Hollywood, culminating in the Oscar Awards...

<O>

Good atm, it starts with his brief engagement to Joan Clarke and goes onward showing how they worked together.

Otto Harkaman

11-17-14, 02:21 PM

Jimbuna

11-17-14, 02:35 PM

Oh Keira Knightley is in it!

I do have Codebreaker downloaded that I need to watch. I've been listening to a great audiobook by David Kahn "Seizing the Enigma" that I need to finish, amazing stuff. I just watched the old British movie "Sink the Bismarck!" I do think Bletchley Park had a big part in finding the ship.

Not sure what Bletchley's role would have been because Bismarck was sighted by a Catalina and shadowed by a further one until the Sheffield could take up a surface shadowing position.

A British Catalina aircraft of No. 209 Squadron, piloted by US Navy observer Ensign Leonard B. Smith, USNR (US Naval Reserve), spotted Bismarck at a range of about eight miles. While Ensign Smith flew the aircraft and evaded accurate German antiaircraft fire, his British copilot radioed a report of the enemy warship's location.

Upon acknowledging the contact report, cruiser Sheffield was detached from Force H and ordered to find and shadow the enemy. Later that day, naval observer Lieutenant James E. Johnson in a British Catalina from No. 240 Squadron, relieved Smith's plane and maintained contact with the German battleship until Sheffield took up a shadowing position.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq118-1.htm

Otto Harkaman

11-17-14, 02:53 PM

^ Its just a hunch I have at the moment. I'll have to gather evidence. However I believe that the Catalina was able to find the Bismarck because of Bletchley Park.

This I can't confirm, its from the Avalon Hill Bismarck rules I am reading "The Bismarck was able to shake off her pursuers and was racing undetected to France when an unfortunate radio message was issued by Lutjens to Germany, detailing the victory the previous morning. The British were able to locate the source of the signal and the chase was on again."

The thing about ULTRA was they always had to have some other way to confirm the information so that it wasn't suspected that they were reading the Enigma codes. Having a plane or some other way for the enemy to explain the information was important.

All just a hunch on my part at the moment till I find something definite.

CCIP

11-17-14, 03:00 PM

I'm pretty sure that was a case of just ordinary DF intercept rather than Bletchley Park. The radio transmission in question was, among other things, exceptionally long (some sources I read state that the transmission lasted a full 30 minutes).

The decoding of messages was far from instantaneous and I believe at that point in the war it took an average of 30 hours for a message to be decoded. Strategically, ULTRA was extremely important but operationally it was not of much use - a ship can be practically anywhere 30 hours later. On the other hand, DF intercepts were fairly reliable, provided the contact could be sighted and shadowed after the transmission.

Catfish

11-17-14, 03:11 PM

Interesting, and i will for sure watch it.
I think though that Turing's role will be overdone by Cumberbatch, as far as i read Alan T. was not very self assured, let alone boasting about his mathematical capabilities.

Also as far as i read, the 'bomb' and the other machine constructed, were not able to instantly decypher the messages. Still took one - two days. Important for the war effort, but not enough to divert a convoy instantly, after some boat breaking radio silence with the Tabu.

And a tête-à-tête with Mrs Clarke ? Hmm.

Looking forward to it anyyway :)

Jimbuna

11-17-14, 03:18 PM

CCIP

11-17-14, 03:25 PM

Although there is an interesting note on Sink the Bismarck! on Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sink_the_Bismarck!#Historical_accuracy

Direction finding and traffic analysis showed that on 25 May, Bismarck stopped talking to Wilhelmshaven and started up with Paris, and Shepard committed to the belief that Bismark was headed for the French coast. The radio switch from Wilhelmshaven to Paris might have been a routine shift caused by Bismarck's crossing a meridian. Nonetheless, Shepard's hunch was soon proved correct when, by good luck, a Luftwaffe Enigma transmission was sent and intercepted and decoded at Bletchley Park, saying that Bismarck was headed for Brest to repair an oil leak.

So perhaps there's a bigger role Bletchley Park played than I gave credit for. The Luftwaffe intercepts were certainly decoded much more quickly than the Kriegsmarine ones. Still, it seems that the key decision in finding the Bismarck was taken on the grounds of DF rather than reading any of the messages, and the content of its own transmission to Paris was not known, at least certainly not until after the Luftwaffe message was read.

I think it's great that the story of Bletchley Park has now become much better known and movies are being made about it. At the same time, one should also not forget the Admiralty's very effective DF network, which was pretty much of equal importance and effectiveness in the Battle of the Atlantic as the crypto work at Bletchley Park.

Otto Harkaman

11-17-14, 04:05 PM

^ Thanks for the info, I find all this very interesting.

It was a conversation on BBG about Dieppe that reanimated my interest in codes, convoys and commandos. People there brought to my notice the interesting documentary called "Dieppe Uncovered" based on David O'Keefe's, "One Day in August: The Untold Story Behind Canada's Tragedy at Dieppe."

http://pixhst.com/avaxhome/b5/b4/002bb4b5_medium.jpeg

Dieppe Uncovered trailer on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3msAZZjzmo)

So now I've become really fascinated with the naval Enigma not to mention Ian Fleming and his "Red Indians" the British 30th Assault unit along with the electronic side of the war. At the same time, one should also not forget the Admiralty's very effective DF network, which was pretty much of equal importance and effectiveness in the Battle of the Atlantic as the crypto work at Bletchley Park. Sounds interesting!

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 09:53 AM

downloaded "Imitation Game" and going to watch it tonight with GF after dinner.

I've started getting into this book called "Very Special Intelligence" by Patrick Beesly. Its about the OIC ( Operational Intelligence Centre) in the NID ( Naval Intelligence Department). I believe I saw somewhere that this book was the first to mention B.P. Bletchley Park, Enigma and Ultra.

O.I.C. formed an integral part of the Intelligence Division. It was the recognized centre for the collection, coordination and evaluation of all information bearing on the movements and intentions of enemy maritime forces, whether this information originated with the cryptanalysts at B.P., with agents of the Secret Service, or with reports from warships or merchant ships at sea, or with the aircraft of the R.A.F. flying over it, or with the D/F stations listening to the enemy W/T transmissions.

I need to watch "Sink the Bismarck!" again but I think this is what is represented in the movie. I did read C.S. Forester's "Sink the Bismarck!" but I'll have to do so again after reading Beesly's book.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rGdNwMt-WYE/VG6uIFD4nTI/AAAAAAAAAx8/G8c4PowVs_g/s1600/plottingboard_004.jpg
It (O.I.C.) was adequately, if not perfectly housed in an underground complex beneath the Admiralty with an efficient communication system. Beesly's book talks about the pneumatic vacuum tube system to send communications about the department which you can see being used in the movie. Actually you can see it at the back of the picture above, it is that nasty entangled bunch of pipes running ceiling to the desk behind actor Kenneth More and actress Dana Wynter.

I am several chapters away from their (O.I.C.) tracking the Bismarck in Beesly's book but I can't wait :)

Rockstar

01-09-15, 10:54 AM

Just an FYI

Tony Sales WWll Codes and Ciphers
http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk

Solving the Enigma: History of the Cryptanalytic Bombe by Jennifer Wilcox
Center for Cryptologic History National Security Agency
Revised 2006
https://www.nsa.gov/about/_files/cryptologic_heritage/publications/wwii/solving_enigma.pdf

Dayton Code Breakers
http://daytoncodebreakers.org

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 11:12 AM

^ Thanks for the FYI

Rockstar

01-09-15, 11:37 AM

my pleasure

here's another good site. Dirk Rijmenants' Cipher Machines and Cryptology

http://users.telenet.be/d.rijmenants/index.htm

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 11:42 AM

^ Oh that is good!

Aktungbby

01-09-15, 12:08 PM

I just recently heard about this film. It stars Benedict Cumberbatch and Keira Knightley. Looks interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn-7SNrQWMo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2jRs4EAvWM

<O>

Was interesting! My Christmas movie flick! Less factual and more cinematic with focus on the development of the machine; The view from 'behind the visor slits'; No problems for knowledgeable Enigma subsimmers at all. Any deviations were for necessary cinematic editing and continuity in a two hour film as are all history based flicks. Some use of WWII footage; and the first time I've seem Mr. Cumberbatch in a starring role-very impressive. Ms Knightly should get an Oscar nod. Siskel and Aktung::up::up::up:

vienna

01-09-15, 01:56 PM

The book from which "The Imitation Game" was derived, "Alan Turing: The Enigma", written by Alan Hodges, is also very good. I read it some years ago and when I first picked it up in the bookstore, I was a bit skeptical since the writer's bio made a bit of a point of stressing the write is a "gay activist". I rather expected to read a sort of 'hooray for our side' sort of biography one often finds when a life is described by someone with a particular and strong viewpoint that often results in some distortion of history or the role of the person depicted. This is not the case in this book. Rather than a heavy handed 'gay good, straight bad' hammering or a handwringing over the injustices suffered by the subject, the story is presented in a factual, well researched manner and adds to the importance and dignity of Turing and his accomplishments. If you liked the movie, I highly recommend the book...

EDIT:

I almost forgot: I came across an article from The Guardian dated in 2011 stating Leonardo DiCaprio was in the front running to star as Alan Turing in "The Imitation Game". The mind staggers at the thought...

<O>

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 02:23 PM

^ wow, yes how off the mark Leonardo DiCaprio would have been. I would have chosen Jim Parsons who plays Sheldon on Big Bang Theory.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2d/Sheldon_Cooper.jpg/250px-Sheldon_Cooper.jpg

I have to wait tonight to watch the movie when girlfriend gets home but I did take a quick couple minutes peak and Cumberbatch seems great for the part.

I did watch the movie "Codebreaker" a couple weeks ago. It dealt with Turing's arrest and the aftermath to his life.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTM4NzkzOTQxMF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTQ1MjY1OA@@._ V1_SX214_AL_.jpg

Penguin

01-09-15, 04:29 PM

^ yep, Jim Parsons would be a perfect fit.

What I find a bit overlooked is the role of the hundreds of ordinary Johns and Janes who worked at Bletchey Park. People who were recruited for their skills at solving crosswords, puzzles, etc and thus had the right training and mindset necessary to break code.

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 05:00 PM

^ Also if CCIP hadn't made me aware of the importance Wireless Direction Finding or also Wireless Traffic Analysis. I would have missed an important part of the intelligence puzzle. It gets lost I think in the current Alan Turing "Bombe" craze.

Here is a time link about Harry Hinsley in Secrets Of War, Shadows Of The Third Reich 07 The Ultra Enigma, which focuses on D/F
http://youtu.be/9sjoBm2obdk?t=20m42s

I said earlier I thought B.P. (Bletchley Park) was involved in the hunting of the Bismarck and Hinsley was at Bletchley but I am a little disappointed. Reading Beesly I couldn't wait to get to the chapter on the hunting of the Bismarck and I thought he would confirm to me that Bletchley was important in finding her. But right off he states "knowledge gained from cryptanalysis played a very minor part. :(

I am still not done with the chapter yet so...

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 06:34 PM

Although there is an interesting note on Sink the Bismarck! on Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sink_the_Bismarck!#Historical_accuracy

So perhaps there's a bigger role Bletchley Park played than I gave credit for. The Luftwaffe intercepts were certainly decoded much more quickly than the Kriegsmarine ones. Still, it seems that the key decision in finding the Bismarck was taken on the grounds of DF rather than reading any of the messages, and the content of its own transmission to Paris was not known, at least certainly not until after the Luftwaffe message was read.

I think it's great that the story of Bletchley Park has now become much better known and movies are being made about it. At the same time, one should also not forget the Admiralty's very effective DF network, which was pretty much of equal importance and effectiveness in the Battle of the Atlantic as the crypto work at Bletchley Park.

Well now that I've gotten to this part this is what Beesly confirms. The decrypting of the Luftwaffe signals helped them figure out the Bismarck was headed towards France. But as you stated the DF network was very important. Although Beesly states they did have a problem at this end run where at first the DF plotting was vague and confusing. The codebreaking did help confirm the Bismarck's intention to head for Brest after much confusion with the D/F fix.

Beesly does state that a Luftwaffe signal to a high ranking officer in Athens was decrypted saying the Bismarck was headed to Brest at this time. The next morning this then is where the catalina was able to confirm Bismarck's position.

I don't know its all pretty confusing because he then goes to emphasise again the cryptanalysis played a minor part.

Rockstar

01-09-15, 06:40 PM

Thing is everyone involved; humint, elint and sigint to one degree or another played a part in finding Bismark. And though one may have played more of a role over the other in finding her. The real prize is that if all three came to the same conclusions it provided hard evidence Brit intel sources were on the right track and working like they should.

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 06:43 PM

^ Yes I agree

Otto Harkaman

01-09-15, 11:35 PM

Well girlfriend was in a foul mood tonight so "Imitation Game" is on hold, I am going to watch (by myself) "Age of Heroes" which is about Ian Fleming's formation of the 30 Assault Commandos. I first became aware of the 30 Assault Unit from watching "Dieppe Uncovered" which I mentioned before. Beesly in his book gives a brief mention to the importance of "Pinch" raids to obtain Intelligence material. Supposedly according to David O'Keefe Dieppe was a "Pinch" raid to obtain one of the new naval Enigma machines. Obviously the "raid" went horrible wrong and it was covered up as a botched trial invasion.

Not expecting much from the movie, bad reviews, oh well need something to take my mind off of girls with caustic tempers.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjE2MzQ1MDA1M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNjUzMjEyNQ@@._ V1_SY317_CR1,0,214,317_AL_.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4c/30AU_emblem.png

Sailor Steve

01-10-15, 12:08 AM

Wow. I may actually have to go see this one in the theater. :sunny:

Cybermat47

01-10-15, 01:47 AM

I would post the Beneficial Cucumber picture here, but I don't think it would be suitable :D

Otto Harkaman

01-10-15, 09:27 AM

Well watched a good bit of that "Age of Heroes" last night. As critics said it was very low budget.

I think more could have been done with camera shots and portraying actually infantry tactics. No white camouflage smocks, dark clothing, crossing miles of open countryside in the snow in broad daylight, walking directly on the ridge line in broad daylight etc. etc. I guess the cameraman and director thought these were pretty shots.

Yeah it was pretty bad but got me asleep.

vienna

01-10-15, 01:35 PM

Wow. I may actually have to go see this one in the theater. :sunny:

I went to the theater to see "The Imitation Game" about a week after it was released here in the US. I really dislike going to the movie theaters, but I was very curious to see the film. I can say it was well worth the effort. Well done and faithful to the history, even with artistic license...

Otto Harkaman

01-11-15, 09:55 AM

Finally watched the movie last night. It was OK, pretty complex subject for a movie. Its almost a dramatization of all Bletchley Park and attributing everything to Turing which wasn't true. I liked it because I've been reading so much about B.P. and Enigma but it might be pretty confusing to someone who doesn't know what the movie is suppose to be about.

Tchocky

01-11-15, 10:26 AM

Saw this the other night. Excellent film.

There's enough license taken to make the Bletchley elements more comprehensible/entertaining, but not so much that someone familiar with the story would find it jarring, a good balance.

Benesplonk Humperditch very good as usual.

Cybermat47

01-11-15, 05:51 PM

Saw this movie yesterday. It's brilliant, and I highly recommend it.

Cybermat47

01-11-15, 05:52 PM

I liked it because I've been reading so much about B.P. and Enigma but it might be pretty confusing to someone who doesn't know what the movie is suppose to be about.

I only know the basics behind B.P., and I still found it pretty easy to follow :)

Bilge_Rat

01-12-15, 03:30 PM

On the Bismarck hunt, Blair's U-Boat history "the Hunters" and "the Hunted" as a lot of info on code creaking.

first, Naval Enigma was supposed to be the strongest of all the German codes.

They did not break Naval Enigma in 39-40, part of the reason for the "Happy Days" slaughter in late 40.

The British were only able to break Naval Enigma intermittently in 1941 and only after they captured key Enigma parts from U-110 on may 9, 1941. Therefore doubtful Enigma was much use in tracking Bismarck two weeks after the capture of U-110.

The Germans changed Naval Enigma in early 42 and the British were not able to re-break it until aug. 42. They were then able to read Naval Enigma from that point until 45.

Otto Harkaman

01-12-15, 04:06 PM

Yes it mainly seems to have been done with wireless D/F. But some Luftwaffe signals seem to have been important, if only for confirmation. Beesly in his book states none of the messages were decoded in time to have had an effect on operations.

From wiki
British code-breakers were able to decrypt some of the German signals, including an order to the Luftwaffe to provide support for Bismarck making for Brest, and the French Resistance provided the British with confirmation that Luftwaffe units were relocating there.

There was also the message to a high ranking Luftwaffe officer in Greece that I mentioned above.

Interesting reading there I hadn't known this, from wiki
Prinz Eugen 's radio-intercept team decrypted the radio signals being sent by Suffolk and learned that their location had been reported.

Interesting when you think of the timeline of some events, a lot happened that summer.

U-110 Captured, 9 May 1941, sunk the following day
Bismarck Scuttled following incapacitating battle damage, 27 May 1941 in the North Atlantic.
Weathership Lauenburg Sunk 28 June 1941

Thanks! Have to track down those books by Blair:)

Bilge_Rat

01-12-15, 04:35 PM

As I recall the Luftwaffe code, I think it was called "Red One" was less secure then the others and was read fairly consistently by the British during the war, although as I recall from Blair (it has been a few years since I read it) this had more to do with lax procedures on the part of Luftwaffe operators than a problem with their Enigma machine. Breaking the Luftwaffe code was a major break since it gave the British insights in what to look for in breaking the other German codes.

The Germans were also able to frequently break most British naval codes and to decipher a lot of stuff in 39-42.

The big difference is that the British knew their codes were vulnerable and were always changing them and tightening their security procedures while the Germans were convinced that Enigma was unbreakable, which turned out to be their weak point.