Plot against the English Queen

[mapuc]

Thank God the English police got the people that had this planned.

If they had success it would have been dagger in the heart of the English soul

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6070536/Alleged-terror-knife-attack-plot-to-kill-the-Queen-foiled-by-cops.html?CMP=SOC-Sun-Twitter-11_20_2013-191-0-0-0

Markus

[August]

If they had success it would have been dagger in the heart of the English soul

I think you severely underestimate the British. Had this plot been carried to fruition I think it would have filled the British people with a terrible resolve that matched the American resolve post 9-11 or Pear Harbor.

[razark]

Join Sun+ for free to read the full story...Want to supply some details or another source?

Edit:
Thanks. I hate having to create extra accounts.

[mapuc]

Want to supply some details or another source?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/british-police-foil-plot-kill-queen-england-report-article-1.2003297

Markus

[mapuc]

I think you severely underestimate the British. Had this plot been carried to fruition I think it would have filled the British people with a terrible resolve that matched the American resolve post 9-11 or Pear Harbor.

I was not 100 % sure of how loved the English Queen is.

I also feared that many innocent Muslim would have been attacked by rightwing or other Muslim/foreign haters, if it had happened.

Markus

[AndyJWest]

Neither the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/07/alleged-islamist-terror-plot-arrests-london-high-wycombe nor the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29955066 say anything about the Queen being the target - I suspect the Sun is engaging in a little speculative hype.

[mapuc]

Neither the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/07/alleged-islamist-terror-plot-arrests-london-high-wycombe nor the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29955066 say anything about the Queen being the target - I suspect the Sun is engaging in a little speculative hype.

First I read about it in a Swedish news paper. In the article a link from where I suppose the Swedish news paper got their story, was posted.

I clicked on that link saw the headlines and copied the url-address and posted it hear(expected that it would be some how the same)

I can't say if the story was a "little speculative hype"

Markus

[August]

I also feared that many innocent Muslim would have been attacked by rightwing or other Muslim/foreign haters, if it had happened.

Well you're right to be fearful because i'm sure it would happen.

There are evil people in all human societies and in all their political, religious and economic flavors, and evil people will do evil things. A more accurate measure of a society is how they deal with them. Are they condoned or even encouraged or are they condemned and prosecuted? I'm betting in Britain it will be a lot more of the latter than the former.

[Betonov]

How on earth are these suspects supposed to gain access to a box to stab someone at an invite only event with all the extra security involved in a high profile event full of VIPs?

They're idiots and didn't really planned it out ??

[Skybird]

Islam has nothing to do with it, just to make that clear before Cameron. :88)The Koran motivates for peace and tolerance and multicultural diversity and equality of men and women and respect for infidels, not for conquest, intolerance, racism, hate and violence. :smug:

Really! :yeah:

What did Hamad Abdel-Samad write just three weeks ago?


It is often claimed that 99.9 percent of all Muslims are peaceful. Only a vanishingly small minority among them were prone to violence. If you measure this peacefulness by the non-participation in terrorist attacks or battles of the IS in Syria and Iraq, this bill may count right. According to these criteria, the majority of Germans during the Third Reich was peaceful. But peace does not mean the absence of violence, but absence of the mindset that leads to violence.

Peacefulness requires an education for peace, which unfortunately in many parts of Islamic families and schools, also in Germany, is missing. If you read that according to surveys, over 80 percent of all Saudis, and even a third of Turks have sympathy for the idea of the Islamic state, then you have to re-evaluate the claim of the peaceful majority of Muslims. In Egypt, Morocco, Jordan, Bangladesh and Pakistan, a similar picture emerges. In Germany, Muslims dissociate indeed from the atrocities of the IS-fighter, but many of them still stick firmly to the idea of the caliphate and the application of Sharia law for all times. "The theory is correct, only the implementation is lagging behind", we also know to hear from supporters of communism. Right here begins the real problem. Here is the back door for political Islam.

There is a qualitative difference between a fighter who in the name of Allah cuts off the heads of other people, and a Muslim father who forces his daughter to wear a headscarf, but both act out of the same mindset. Both see their deeds completing the will of God which is is neither changeable nor negotiable. Giving in to this will of God unconditionally is the meaning of the Arabic word "Islam". This devotion to education and lack of criticism against the laws of God is the essential ingredient of Islamic education, also in Germany.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2254398&postcount=868

[Jimbuna]

I think you severely underestimate the British. Had this plot been carried to fruition I think it would have filled the British people with a terrible resolve that matched the American resolve post 9-11 or Pear Harbor.

Of that we can all be certain :yep:

Last attempted by Hitler during the Blitz.

I was not 100 % sure of how loved the English Queen is.



Like all monarchs, there will be those who are anti-royal but overall she is extremely popular IMHO.

[Skybird]

Last attempted by Hitler during the Blitz.
No, last attempted in 2005 by Islamic terrorism ("7/7"). ;) 52 victims dead, over 700 injured.

The Brits stayed calm. :salute:

[Oberon]

They're idiots and didn't really planned it out ??

I really must get around to watching Four Lions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew-SrlQ9tlI)...

[Oberon]

No, last attempted in 2005 by Islamic terrorism ("7/7"). ;) 56 dead, over 700 injured.

And the Irish before that...a lot more frequently, and in total a lot more dead.
In 13 years of Islamic extremism in the UK we've had 57 killed, working out as an average of 4.38 a year. The Irish managed 66.72 per year over a period of 29 years.
The radical Muslim hordes have got a lot of catching up to do. :yep:

[Betonov]

And if the IRA couldn't get to the Queen, how those amateurs will ?? :03:

[STEED]

And if the IRA couldn't get to the Queen, how those amateurs will ?? :03:

Indeed. :up:

[Skybird]

And the Irish before that...a lot more frequently, and in total a lot more dead.
In 13 years of Islamic extremism in the UK we've had 57 killed, working out as an average of 4.38 a year. The Irish managed 66.72 per year over a period of 29 years.
The radical Muslim hordes have got a lot of catching up to do. :yep:

:06:

Mapuc: If they had success it would have been dagger in the heart of the English soul.

August: I think you severely underestimate the British. Had this plot been carried to fruition I think it would have filled the British people with a terrible resolve that matched the American resolve post 9-11 or Pear Harbor.

Jimbuna: Of that we can all be certain :yep:. Last attempted by Hitler during the Blitz.

Skybird: No, last attempted in 2005 by Islamic terrorism ("7/7"). ;) 52 victims dead, over 700 injured. The Brits stayed calm. :salute:

---

Allah is a great deceiver (and in Oberon's interpretation: relativiser).

[Dread Knot]

Given the proximity to another famous date In British History, I wonder what they would have called it had they succeeded.

Guy al-Fauq's Day?

[Betonov]

Remember remember, the eight of november
of idiots, kebab and plot,
I think of no reason why the muslim treason
should ever be forgot

[Oberon]

:06:

Mapuc: If they had success it would have been dagger in the heart of the English soul.

August: I think you severely underestimate the British. Had this plot been carried to fruition I think it would have filled the British people with a terrible resolve that matched the American resolve post 9-11 or Pear Harbor.

Jimbuna: Of that we can all be certain :yep:. Last attempted by Hitler during the Blitz.

Skybird: No, last attempted in 2005 by Islamic terrorism ("7/7"). ;) 52 victims dead, over 700 injured. The Brits stayed calm. :salute:

---

Allah is a great deceiver (and in Oberon's interpretation: relativiser).

:hmmm:

Think I may jumped the gun there...

Never mind, carry on...I'll be back later when this thread has taken its inevitable course. :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Remember remember, the eight of november
of idiots, kebab and plot,
I think of no reason why the muslim treason
should ever be forgot
:rotfl2:

Brilliant! :rock:

[Rockstar]

Remember remember, the eight of november
of idiots, kebab and plot,
I think of no reason why the muslim treason
should ever be forgot

:Kaleun_Applaud: Say something else!

[Jimbuna]

And if the IRA couldn't get to the Queen, how those amateurs will ?? :03:

You just never know when some dastardly plot might come up trumps...

They certainly got her cousin:

1979: IRA bomb kills Lord Mountbatten
The Queen's cousin, Lord Louis Mountbatten, has been killed by a bomb blast on his boat in Ireland.
One of the earl's twin grandsons, Nicholas, 14, and Paul Maxwell, 15, a local employed as a boat boy, also died in the explosion.

The attack was followed only hours later by the massacre of 18 soldiers, killed in two booby-trap bomb explosions near Warrenpoint close to the border with the Irish Republic.

The IRA has already admitted carrying out the attack on Lord Mountbatten.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/27/newsid_2511000/2511545.stm

[Betonov]

:Kaleun_Applaud: Say something else!
I don't know the rest of the poem. I think there's more :hmmm:

[Mr Quatro]

These kinds of people never give up ... remember 9/11 was the second attempt to take down the world trade towers.

Hard to believe that regular Muslims would plot something like this. More like these new up and coming terrorist called ISIS.

Trying to make a name for themselves by taking out the queen and blame the British for joining the nations aligned against them.

She and her family will have to hunker down till this blows over and who knows this threat could become a sign of the times for UK and even the USA.

I've often thought how easy it would be for a school bus full of terrorist armed with rpg's to fire on the white house.

That would send a clear message for the president to move to Camp David now wouldn't it?

[Oberon]

These kinds of people never give up ... remember 9/11 was the second attempt to take down the world trade towers.

Hard to believe that regular Muslims would plot something like this. More like these new up and coming terrorist called ISIS.

Trying to make a name for themselves by taking out the queen and blame the British for joining the nations aligned against them.

She and her family will have to hunker down till this blows over and who knows this threat could become a sign of the times for UK and even the USA.

I've often thought how easy it would be for a school bus full of terrorist armed with rpg's to fire on the white house.

That would send a clear message for the president to move to Camp David now wouldn't it?

Catch-22. The only way to stop such a thing is better policing, but for better policing you need an increasingly invasive policing system (aka CCTV, email snooping, etc) and so you trade one thing for another.

As old Benny once said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
"You mean there's a catch?"
"Sure there's a catch", Doc Daneeka replied. "Catch-22. Anyone who wants to get out of combat duty isn't really crazy."
There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's own safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them, he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to, he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

[Jimbuna]

How silly of me...here was I thinking the OP was wanting to discuss the effect of a death to the monarch and debating the resolve (if any of the British nation).

[Betonov]

How silly of me...here was I thinking the OP was wanting to discuss the effect of a death to the monarch and debating the resolve (if any of the British nation).

Here's my opinion.

There would be riots like never before and all aimed at Muslims, whether moderate or extreme. Half the police force would try to ease the situation, half would start turning a blind eye to violence.
Far right groups would use the situation to target Jews and other ethnic minorities. The attacked would band together to protect themselves and you'd have something similar to a civil war in the streets. Those that would be able to get out of the country would be even more radicalized.

Charles would have been crowned amidst the biggest internal conflict since Cromwell. He'd start defusing the situation even before the crowning and the riots would start loosing steam.

After that, who knows. Probably a far more agresive party would have been voted in. Immigration laws would tighten. Skybird would have a: I told you so binge.

And that's only Britain. There's an entire commonwealth out there to consider.

I'm certain about riots.

[Skybird]

The Commonwealth doe snot compare to the Ummah, Betonov, it is much weaker a motivation. In Australia and Canada there are even political trends increasing to leave Royalty and Commonwealth behind. Considering the ties and economic and political contexts Australia is located and fixed in, it will learn in the forseeable future that it must more be concern about finding a defendable stand in the Asian economic arena and regarding China, then caring for some historic heritage on the other side of the planet. I do not say this is the majority opinionh already, but it is an opinion that winds more and more followers. You will see Australia leaving Britain behind one day, sooner or later. And definiotely within this century, of this I am quite certain. The economic competition is just too tough in the Asian shark pool.

The Ummah on the other hand provides a feeling of shared identity and "strength by unity" that is independent from national concepts and race, and basing on the inflamatory ideology that it does base on, it is no surprise that you see it going up it burning sentiments so often and over so minor, often even forged complaints, as it is the case. Also, the demograpohic structure inside societies sharing that Ummah by majority of poipulation is younger, more energetic, than Australian society, or Canada. If you count these as Western countries, they suffer already from the same symptrokms like Europe: getting overaged, old, tired. Canada is not yet where Europe is, but they are on their way, like every Western nation. The demographic structure that the West decline sover right now will reach societies of the Islmaic Ummah not before maybe two generation, ~60 years. Not before then Islam will get tired again and take a more passive stand again in the world. Until then, it will push the offensive.

[Oberon]

Here's my opinion.

There would be riots like never before and all aimed at Muslims, whether moderate or extreme. Half the police force would try to ease the situation, half would start turning a blind eye to violence.
Far right groups would use the situation to target Jews and other ethnic minorities. The attacked would band together to protect themselves and you'd have something similar to a civil war in the streets. Those that would be able to get out of the country would be even more radicalized.

Charles would have been crowned amidst the biggest internal conflict since Cromwell. He'd start defusing the situation even before the crowning and the riots would start loosing steam.

After that, who knows. Probably a far more agresive party would have been voted in. Immigration laws would tighten. Skybird would have a: I told you so binge.

And that's only Britain. There's an entire commonwealth out there to consider.

I'm certain about riots.

Pretty astute and accurate summary I'd say. UKIP would make a killing as would the BNP, xenophobia would rocket, Anti-Islam groups would gloat for years to come. In regards to the Commonwealth, probably only Australia and Canada would be that adversely affected. India already has Muslim issues and the rest are either in Africa or wouldn't have a big enough population to do much more than send their condolences and diplomatic messages.

[Tango589]

Here's my opinion.

There would be riots like never before and all aimed at Muslims, whether moderate or extreme. Half the police force would try to ease the situation, half would start turning a blind eye to violence.
Far right groups would use the situation to target Jews and other ethnic minorities. The attacked would band together to protect themselves and you'd have something similar to a civil war in the streets. Those that would be able to get out of the country would be even more radicalized.

Charles would have been crowned amidst the biggest internal conflict since Cromwell. He'd start defusing the situation even before the crowning and the riots would start loosing steam.

After that, who knows. Probably a far more agresive party would have been voted in. Immigration laws would tighten. Skybird would have a: I told you so binge.

And that's only Britain. There's an entire commonwealth out there to consider.

I'm certain about riots.

While all this is going on, there would also be a hell of a lot of people aghast at the violence, and there would be a huge outcry at those mindless thugs who are throwing bricks through the local curry house window just because they look 'muslim'. Unfortunately, it is often the case that the emptiest vessels make the loudest noise, but I hope that during the anti-muslim marches, there would be an equal number of people marching against the mobs, calling for peace.

[MH]

While you are into lynching and stuff read this xenophobic article.


Let’s Talk About How Islam Has Been Hijacked

I’m appalled by what is done in the name of my religion. Yet my American friends don’t want to hear it.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-FF214_salem_J_20141026115039.jpg<!----> ENLARGE <!--[endif]-->
A masked militant from Islamic Jihad Zuma Press



By Aly Salem

Oct. 26, 2014 7:23 p.m.

This week a Canadian Muslim gunman went on a rampage in Ottawa, killing a soldier and storming into the Parliament building before he was shot dead. Authorities have since said he had applied for a passport to travel to Syria. Three Muslim schoolgirls from Colorado were intercepted in Germany apparently on their way to Syria, the base for attacks there and in Iraq by the terror group Islamic State, or ISIS. An Aug. 20 article in Newsweek estimated that perhaps twice as many British Muslims are fighting for ISIS as are serving in the British army.
What could possibly inspire young Muslims in the West to abandon their suburban middle-class existence and join a holy war? How could teenagers in Denver or anywhere be lured by a jihadist ideology—or are grisly videos of ISIS beheadings and crucifixions not enough of a deterrent?
What is so compelling about radical Islamism may lie within its founding texts. It is time we acknowledged the powerful influence these texts have had even on ordinary Muslims. The political ideology based on them has already dragged the Middle East back toward the Stone Age.
As a teenager growing up in Egypt in the 1980s, I liked to stroll through Cairo’s outdoor book market, fishing out little gems like an Arabic translation of “War and Peace.” One day I stumbled upon a book that shook everything I believed in.
The book was “In the Shadows of the Quran,” Sayyed Qutb’s magnum opus. The Egyptian writer, who died in 1966, remains arguably the most influential thinker in contemporary Muslim societies. He was the principal theorist of the Muslim Brotherhood and the intellectual impetus behind the Islamist parties it spawned. Qutb’s ardent disciples included Osama bin Laden (http://topics.wsj.com/person/b/Osama-bin%20Laden/6574)and Ayman Zawahiri of al Qaeda. It is not an exaggeration to say that Qutb is to Islamism what Karl Marx is to communism.
Qutb’s brilliance as a theorist was in how he applied Western-style literary criticism to the Quran to interpret God’s intentions. He concluded that the reason for the Muslim world’s decline were external cultural and political influences that diluted Islam: The culprits included everything from Greek empiricism and liberal democracy to socialism, Persian poetry and Hegelian philosophy. The only path to an Islamic renaissance was to cleanse Muslim societies of these contaminants and restore Islam to its seventh-century purity.
Today, Qutb’s outlook—Islamism—is the dominant political ideology in most Muslim-majority countries, often taking root in vacuums where secular politics have never had space to develop. Polls by the Pew Research Center, such as 2013’s “The World’s Muslims” indicate that in many Muslim countries, the population is overwhelmingly in favor of veiling for women, the death penalty for leaving Islam and stoning as punishment for adultery; rabid anti-Semitism is rampant. The few exceptions to these statistics tend to be countries with a long history of militant secularism (like Turkey), or former communist states (Tajikistan, Bosnia, Albania, etc.) where religion was effectively wiped out of the public sphere. But Islamism is now growing even in those places.
The trend of history is being reversed. In Egypt, for instance, veiling was unheard of 50 years ago and was virtually extinct until the Islamists resurrected the practice in the 1970s. Today an estimated 90% of Egyptian women are veiled. In many other countries the veil—originally a tribal norm not a religious one—is now ubiquitous, as are views on apostasy in countries that were far more progressive 50 years ago.
Many of my fellow Muslims are trying to reform Islam from within. Yet our voices are smothered in the West by Islamist apologists and their well-meaning but unwitting allies on the left. For instance, if you try to draw attention to the stark correlation between the rise of Islamic religiosity and regressive attitudes toward women, you’re labeled an Islamophobe.
In America, other contemporary ideologies are routinely and openly debated in classrooms, newspapers, on talk shows and in living rooms. But Americans make an exception for Islamism. Criticism of the religion—even in abstraction—is conflated with bigotry toward Muslims. There is no public discourse, much less an ideological response, to Islamism, in academia or on Capitol Hill. This trend is creating an intellectual vacuum, where poisonous ideas are allowed to propagate unchecked.
My own experience as a Muslim in New York bears this out. Socially progressive, self-proclaimed liberals, who would denounce even the slightest injustice committed against women or minorities in America, are appalled when I express a similar criticism about my own community.
Compare the collective response after each harrowing high-school shooting in America. Intellectuals and public figures look for the root cause of the violence and ask: Why? Yet when I ask why after every terrorist attack, the disapproval I get from my non-Muslim peers is visceral: The majority of Muslims are not violent, they insist, the jihadists are a minority who don’t represent Islam, and I am fear-mongering by even wondering aloud.
This is delusional thinking. Even as the world witnesses the barbarity of beheadings, habitual stoning and severe subjugation of women and minorities in the Muslim world, politicians and academics lecture that Islam is a “religion of peace.” Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia routinely beheads women for sorcery and witchcraft.
In the U.S., we Muslims are handled like exotic flowers that will crumble if our faith is criticized—even if we do it ourselves. Meanwhile, Republicans and Democrats alike would apparently prefer to drop bombs in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and beyond, because killing Muslims is somehow less offensive than criticizing their religion? Unfortunately, you can’t kill an idea with a bomb, and so Islamism will continue to propagate. Muslims must tolerate civilized public debate of the texts and scripture that inform Islamism. To demand any less of us is to engage in the soft bigotry of low expectations.
[I]Mr. Salem is an Egyptian writer based in New York.

[mapuc]

You could all be right, no one know the outcome if some radical should do such things against the Queen of England.

And Tribesman is right

How will they get near, the most guarded, lady in England ?

Some days ago I read in an article, the English police denying that such plan existed.

Now I wonder- Have the journalist at the Sun been inventing a story, to a smaller story, about 4 radical Islamist being arrested and all the other news paper copy this great (imaginary story).

Markus

[mapuc]

How silly of me...here was I thinking the OP was wanting to discuss the effect of a death to the monarch and debating the resolve (if any of the British nation).


Rgr that

[Oberon]

the Sun pure nonsense.

This is the important message to take away from this thread. :yep:

[Skybird]

As long as

- Muslims claim their religion is being "hijacked";
- as long as they refuse to understand that the "hijackers' " barbaric attitude is rooted in their very precious holy scriptures that Islam bases upon, and gets initiated and motivated by its teachings;
- as long as any critical self-examination of Islam (as Christianity did on its own behalf already longer time ago) is replaced with self-vicitmization;
- as long as clueless Westerners let them get away with it and encourage them to do like this and applaud them:

as long as all this is so, things will not improve, but turn worse, and the West effectively will grow weaker and more and more defenceless, for it denies itself the right to defend itself, or worse: does not even see why it should want to need defending its own identity and history. A history with ups and downs, but that still resulted in the by far highest degrees of liberties and humane ideals and knowledge that have ever been achieved by any human civilisation in known history.

Many contemporary people have learned nothing, absolutely nothing from past century's history of totalitarian ideologies and regimes. In Germany we have had two socialist totalitarian tyrannies within just 45 years or so , and what do we do? We embrace the third totalitarian ideology spreading its seeds within less than a century. And we declare all the evil it gives birth to - as something that has nothing to do with its origin that brought it into the world.

There is nothing new under the sun - except what has been forgotten. - Santayana.

When people refuse to learn the ways of totalitarianism, then they must suffer through it again. And nothing better they deserve.

[vanjast]

And the Sun publishes an apology a week later...

'Sorry, wrong queen'...
:O:

[Jimbuna]

If someone supports totalitarian ideologies and tyrants they cannot complain about totalitarian ideologies and tyranny unless they want to offer their own hypocrisy up for open criticism.
It is very simple.
If someone supports terrorism they cannot condemn terrorism.
If someone supports terrorists of the Marxist/Leninist or fascist flavour, or of a "religious" excuse they cannot condemn terrorists of an idiotic political ideology or a "religious" excuse without their views being open to criticism for their posts content.

Take the personal attacks out of the above and I would be of the view that everyone's viewpoint is open to debate and potential challenge.

The personal side of matters WILL CEASE of that I am determined.

The manner in which they are stopped is up to those who carry out said attacks.