Shooting down aircraft with the deck gun - possible IRL?

[Subnuts]

In the (really terrible) Haynes "workshop manual" for the Type VII, the author mentions that "a number" aircraft were actually shot down by 8.8 cm deck guns before they were removed from the boats in 1943.

Frankly, I'm having kind of a hard time believing this. The 8.8cm/45 would have made an absolutely terrible anti-aircraft gun - manual elevation and traverse, unstabilized, maximum elevation of 30 degrees, extremely rudimentary fire control, and the Germans never fielded a "real" (with a proximity fuze) AA shell for the gun. Seems like you'd have to be absolutely desperate to use the deck gun against an enemy plane, you wouldn't be able to crash dive while it was manned, and you'd have to have unbelievably good luck to hit anything with it. At least the 2cm and 3.7cm AA guns had a decent chance of screwing up an enemy's bomb run!

This is the same book that gives the Type IXB with a 182-knot surface speed, and lookouts infrared night vision goggles, so I'd obviously take anything from it with a grain of salt. Still, in the 15 years I've been studying the Battle of the Atlantic, I've never heard of a single Allied plane being shot down by one of the U-boats' "big" guns. Can anyone more obsessed with the subject please give me a Yes or No?:hmm2:

[vanjast]

Considering your number of posts.. I'm surprised this has you worried ?
Do you have a link to Haynes ?

[Cybermat47]

I managed to shoot down a plane with the deck gun in SH5. But I was on 2% realism or something, so it's not a very reliable source...

[Sailor Steve]

Here is a list of every aircraft shot down by u-boats. I saw no deck gun kills, but I've only had time to look at about a quarter of it.

Have fun.
http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

[UKönig]

I make use of the 88mm cannon against aircraft only when desperate. Yes, it has worked for me, but I had to put the gun more or less into the position the aircraft was going to be when it passed by overhead. We only get 1-2 chances to score a hit, until he turns around and lines up another pass, but it's a white-knuckle ride the whole time. I think I may have shot down 3 or 4 of the 'big birds' (sunderland on up) and I have hit a B24 with one, but that's just me playing a game. In real life, I seriously doubt I would even attempt it, maybe if it were our last chance at life, and nothing else worked by that point...

[Admiral Halsey]

I actually did it by accident once. Was shooting a tramp steamer when I get the warning a plane had been spotted. I forgot I was in the deck gun for a second and ended up nailing it on the first shot. Gave one one helluva fireworks show as well.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

I actually did it by accident once. Was shooting a tramp steamer when I get the warning a plane had been spotted. I forgot I was in the deck gun for a second and ended up nailing it on the first shot. Gave one one helluva fireworks show as well.
God Dangit Jim! :rotfl2:

[Zosimus]

I assume that if you encounter aircraft that you're going to dive, unless something prevents you from doing so. That something could be moving torpedoes from external storage to internal area.

If I were the captain, I would man every gun I had–deck gun included. As I play the game, however, I will tell you that I normally head full speed away from the planes. This seems to give my anti-aircraft guys more time to line up a reasonable shot on them as well as putting the crew in a good firing position against the plane. As such, the deck gun wouldn't work for me at all.

[Kielhauler1961]

The OP asked if anyone had evidence of such an event in 'real life'. As we all know anything is possible in this sim with or without the various uber-mods, no matter how improbable in the real world. We can always reload a saved game, they couldn't...

My answer to the question as posted is 'No, there is no evidence'. In 40+ years of reading about U-Boats I've never heard of such a thing. Given the limitations of the deck gun itself and the lack of time-fused ammunition it would be unlikely any RL U-Boat even tried it.

If any boat had succeeded in using it's DG to down an aircraft and made it back to port, the Nazi propaganda machine would have had a field day. The fact that that never happened is one clue there was no such recorded event.

Reservation: The only possibility that remains are the few remaining U-Boats 'lost to unknown causes' that may also involve missing aircraft at about the same time and place. So we'll never know for sure.:hmmm:

Now, if you will excuse me, I have to reload my save where I'm out of torpedoes and trying to sink HMS Nelson by ramming...:03:

[Aktungbby]

Here is a list of every aircraft shot down by u-boats. I saw no deck gun kills, but I've only had time to look at about a quarter of it.

Have fun.
http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

Thankyou for that great post! I read all of the entries and all say 'Flak'; not one deck gun! moreover if you are at 17 knots and turning sharply to evade even a slow Sunderland I don't imagine there are voluteers to go onto a lower main deck in even moderate seas; much less aim the gun under such conditions. One entry stuck out in my mind as particularly nasty but not untypical: "Aircraft attack, aircraft shot down:
British Wellington (RAF Sqdn 172/Q, pilot: F/O W.H.T. Jennings)
The sinking of U-459 Type XIV supply and replenishment U-boat ( Milchkuh . 17.15 hrs, NW of Corunna, Spain: despite taking the boat by surprise, the Wellington was hit by heavy and accurate AA fire on the initial attack run, lost control, and crashed into the boat on the starboard side. Only the tail gunner (Sgt A.A. Turner) survived, when his turret separated on impact and he found himself in the water close to an inflated dinghy. The remaining five aircrew were killed. U-459 lost several(19) gunners and most of the AA guns in the crash, and the crew found three unexploded depth charges on deck when clearing the wreckage. They decided to roll them into the sea at high speed, but at least one exploded, close enough to disable the steering gear and cause severe damage to the stern compartments. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/U-boat_Warfare_1939-1945_C3780.jpg
At approx. 17.30 hrs, a second Wellington (RAF Sqdn 547/V, F/O J. Whyte) strafed the boat and dropped seven depth charges, causing further damage. KorvettanKapitän Wilamowitz-Möllendorf, age 48, http://www.uboat.net/media/men/commanders/wilamowitz-mollendorf.jpg ordered his men to abandon ship and saluted them as they rowed away, then went below to open the scuttling vents. He went down with his boat. 41 Germans and the sole British survivor were picked up by ORP Orkan (http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/5436.html) some 8 hours later." And this sneaky trick: " 27 Nov 1943 Aircraft attack, aircraft shot down:
British Wellington bomber HF153 (RAF Sqdn 172/O, pilot P/O T.B. Wilkin) 21.22 hrs, Atlantic W of Lisbon: While escorting combined convoys SL 140 (http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php?convoy=SL 140)/MKS 31 (http://uboat.net/ops/convoys/convoys.php?convoy=MKS 31) from its base on the Azores, the Wellington made a Leigh Light attack and was hit by flak after making an initial strafing run. Its subsequent crash was witnessed by U-262 (http://uboat.net/boats/u262.htm) and U-238 (http://uboat.net/boats/u238.htm) which picked up two survivors, F/S Nicolas J. Martin and Sgt Thomas B. Semple. The other five aircrew were lost. Sgt Semple was the radio operator, and later convinced the Germans during his interrogation that Allied aircraft were able to passively locate U-boats by homing in on their radar detection devices. This deception led to the order to U-boats to turn off their Naxos detectors.
BOTTOM LINE IMHO: As in previous posts: Stay heavy to reduce dive time at 5-6 meters (some reduction of speed) in Bay of Biscay or, as above examples, off Spain's coast, and be prepared to crash dive at all times-DO NOT stay up to fight with aircraft. Even a damaged boat returning to the French 5 Atlantic ports was 'as good as boat lost' to the Allies; the wait-backup(turnaround time) to get into bombproof pen repair facilities was never really solved by the Kreigsmarine....Black May is illuminating (Leigh-Lights notwithstanding:nope:) reading on the subject!

[Lokisaga]

Uboat.net has no records of such an event under "U-boat Successes Against Aircraft," but it does have a story about a u-boat shooting down a Soviet plane with its deck gun under the entry about deck guns, in the section about unusual feats of gunnery, "An excellent hit was landed by U-242 on 10 Oct, 1944 when it shot down a Russian aircraft with her 8,8cm deck gun!" This article doesn't cite any sources, so I'm still skeptical. For all of the reasons that others have stated above, the deck gun made an abominable anti-aircraft weapon. I think some people might be, at first glance, confusing it with the Wehrmacht's famous anti-aircraft and anti-armor 88mm, but the two guns have almost nothing in common.

The article is here: http://www.uboat.net/technical/guns.htm.

[scott_c2911]

I believe lokisaga to be correct on this one. The armys 88 was initially designed as a heavy AA gun where the naval 88 was a bombardment artillery piece. They had nothing technically in common apart from calibre. They could not even use the same ammunition. The armys 88 had a very flat trajectory hence the AA idea. It was when the low and fast round was found to be a devastating AT weapon it was used as the 88 we all know in historical media.

[Subnuts]

I just noticed that U-242 shooting down a Soviet plane on 10-10-44 isn't on U-242's "attacks on the boat and other events" page at uboat.net. I'm still pretty skeptical about the whole event. It makes for good propaganda, but the idea that a manually operated gun with a low muzzle velocity, on a pitching, rolling U-boat, could score a direct hit on an incoming enemy plane, even if it was manned by the finest gun crew in the entire Kriegsmarine, really stretches credibility. I've seen the plane described as an IL-2 in a couple places, which is even harder to believe. Unfortunately, U-242 was sunk a few months later, and I'm certain the Soviet Union never kept indepth records of every plane they lost during the war, so we'll probably never know for sure.

[Aktungbby]

Have emailed U-boat site for more source info on U-242 downing of Russian aircraft. Meanwhile: Of some considerable interest: "The concept of the "U-flak" or "Flak Trap" originated the previous year, on 31 August 1942, when U-256 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-256) was seriously damaged by aircraft. Rather than scrap the boat, it was decided to refit her as a heavily armed anti-aircraft boat intended to combat the losses being inflicted by Allied aircraft in the Bay of Biscay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Biscay). Two 20 mm quadruple Flakvierling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flakvierling) mounts and an experimental 37 mm automatic gun were installed on the U-flaks' decks. A battery of 86 mm line-carrying anti-aircraft rockets was tested (similar to a device used by the British in the defense of airfields), but this idea proved unworkable. At times, two additional single 20 mm guns were also mounted. The submarines' limited fuel capacities restricted them to operations only within the Bay of Biscay. Only five torpedoes were carried, preloaded in the tubes, to free up space needed for additional gun crew.
Four VIIC boats were modified for use as surface escorts for U-boats departing and returning to French Atlantic bases. These "U-flak" boats were U-441 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-441), U-256 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-256), U-621 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-621), and U-951 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=German_submarine_U-951&action=edit&redlink=1). Conversion began on three others (U-211 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-211), U-263 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-263), and U-271 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-271)) but none was completed and they were eventually returned to duty as standard VIIC attack boats.
The modified boats became operational in June 1943 and at first appeared to be successful against a surprised Royal Air Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force). Hoping that the extra firepower might allow the boats to survive relentless British air attacks in the Bay of Biscay and reach their operational areas, Donitz ordered the boats to cross the bay in groups at maximum speed. The effort earned the Germans about two more months of relatively limited freedom, until the RAF modified their tactics. When a pilot saw that a U-boat was going to fight on the surface, he held off attacking and called in reinforcements. When several aircraft had arrived, they all attacked at once. If the U-boat dived, surface vessels were called to the scene to scour the area with sonar and drop depth charges. The British also began equipping some aircraft with rockets that could sink a U-boat with a single hit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP-3), finally making it too dangerous for a U-boat to attempt to fight it out on the surface regardless of its armament. In November 1943, less than six months after the experiment began, it was discontinued. All U-flaks were converted back to standard attack boats and fitted with Turm 4, the standard anti-aircraft armament for U-boats at the time. (According to German sources, only six aircraft had been shot down by the U-flaks in six missions, three by U-441, and one each by U-256, U-621, and U-953 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-953).)"http://www.uboat.net/media/boats/photos/u441-1.jpg<CASE in point: "U-441 (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u441.htm) was rebuilt as U-flak 1, the first of three U-flak (http://www.uboat.net/types/u-flak.htm) boats. Perhaps the most noticeable change in appearance was a greatly expanded Wintergarten (bridge) which had an additional gun platform erected in front of the conning tower. As the boat was to act as an aircraft trap she received greatly increased fire-power in the form of 2cm quadruple anti-aircraft machine-guns, 1 3.7cm machine-gun
and additional MG 42 machine-guns (which were mostly effective in boosting morale):huh:. " The flak boat was strafed by three British Beaufighters from 248 Sqdn RAF in the Bay of Biscay (http://www.uboat.net/maps/biscay.htm). 10 men died and 13 more were wounded, including all officers other than the ship's doctor. Dr Paul Pfaffinger took over command from Kplt Hartmann, treated the wounded and brought the boat back to Brest. He was subsequently awarded the German Cross in Gold. This action led to the abandonment of the flak boat experiment, and all the boats involved were returned to their original armament configuration." IN SHORT: just dive ASAP! :/\\!!http://www.uboat.net/boats/u441.htm (http://www.uboat.net/boats/u441.htm)

[Jimbuna]

Here is a list of every aircraft shot down by u-boats. I saw no deck gun kills, but I've only had time to look at about a quarter of it.

Have fun.
http://uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

I'm with Steve on this one but I have shot down a K-Ship ingame with the deck gun :03: