A question about the pre-germany era

[mapuc]

Have Just seen the first episode of a Danish drama series "1864"

In part one who takes it start in 1851 a Danish politician use the word "Tyskerne" = The Germans.

Was this word used before the creation of Germany(1871)?

I'm sure that if you asked a person from pre-germany(e.g 1851) which nationality he has he wouldn't say I'm a german, he would say I'm a Schleswiger

Markus

[Eichhörnchen]

You make a very good point. I don't have much knowledge about this period, but I would have thought that the average Prussian or Saxon would not have described themselves as "German" back then.

Maybe you need Catfish or Schroeder on the case...:03:

[Skybird]

You may want to discriminate between the ethnic, language-based and juristic forms to define the nationality of a people. The juristic form to do so only is a bureaucratic profanity, and it can but must no correspond to the feeling of identity a given subject may have. Many Turks in modern Germany have formally a German nationality (passport, ID card, citizenship), but do not see themselves as Germans, and some of these may not even want to be seen as that. - This only to illustrate the need to differ between cultural identity and juristic-bureaucratic formality when thinking of "nationality".

The "Germans" get referred to under that name since around the 10th century already. They get mentioned as that in some clerical decrees and written documents related to the Vatican, I think. Since then, the usage of this term spread rapidly in other languages as well.

The birth hours of a German spirit of national identity also is seen in this era, after the battle on the Lechfeld near Augsburg in 955, when Otto I. defeated the Hungarians that until then had time and again raided territories that later would count as "Germany" and for the first time ever saw a strong alliance of feudal leaders and local "chieftains" that before spend more time with fighting against each others instead of the shared bandit-enemy from the Eastern outside. Already before, in the middle of the 9th century, the Franconian empire had been divided into three realms, of which one part, covered the area between Rhein and Elbe. The first king of this kingdom was Ludwig, called Ludwig der Deutsche (the German). The oldest document in German language also is from that time the so-called Strassbourger Eide. Roughly one hundred years later already, the new empire had established itself under Otto the Great, it became later known as the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation.

[Eichhörnchen]

Well I guess there was that bloke called "Herman the German" in antiquity, wasn't there? So I suppose the word does pre-date the federation of all those small states.

[Skybird]

Well I guess there was that bloke called "Herman the German" in antiquity, wasn't there? So I suppose the word does pre-date the federation of all those small states.
A nickname, his real name was Arminius , a latinized version of his germanic name Erminaz. the later germanized version of the latinized verison wold become "Hermann".

I was born in the shadow of the Hermann Height Monument, btw. My grandfather'S name was Hermann. And I owned not one but four swords in my life. You all are warned. :D

Arminius was Cheruscian, usually described as a Germanic tribe. The English reference "Hermann the German" in unknown in German, he does not have the name "Hermann der Deutsche/Germane" in German language. In German, he occasionally gets referred to as "Hermann der Cherusker".

It is under debate that the Cherusci indeed have to be counted as a Germanic tribe. However, no matter their origin they got absorbed by Franconian and Alemmani tribes later.

[mapuc]

Thank you Skybird for your indeep answer.

So the word German is older than I have learned or read.

Markus

[Eichhörnchen]

A nickname, his real name was Arminius , a latinized version of his germanic name Erminaz. the later germanized version of the latinized verison wold become "Hermann".

I was born in the shadow of the Hermann Height Monument, btw. My grandfather'S name was Hermann. And I owned not one but four swords in my life. You all are warned. :D

Arminius was Cheruscian, usually described as a Germanic tribe. The English reference "Hermann the German" in unknown in German, he does not have the name "Hermann der Deutsche/Germane" in German language. In German, he occasionally gets referred to as "Hermann der Cherusker".

It is under debate that the Cherusci indeed have to be counted as a Germanic tribe. However, no matter their origin they got absorbed by Franconian and Alemmani tribes later.


Well as you've probably concluded from my own contributions, the English can be a rather shallow race and we probably called him Hermann the German for no other reason than that it rhymes!

Joking aside, I did find your expansion very interesting, Skybird. Thank you...


PS/ perhaps you would now like to contribute a title toward my Animal Film Club thread?

[Schroeder]

we probably called him Hermann the German for no other reason than that it rhymes!

Only if you mispronounce his name in an English manner. When pronounced correctly it doesn't rhyme with "German".:know:
:O:

[Eichhörnchen]

Yeah but when I say it in my head, it comes out in a pantomimic German accent and rhymes...:O:

[Joefour]

German-from the latin word germanus--genuine, real,actual, true.

[Eichhörnchen]

Now I certainly did not know that. Interesting...

[Catfish]

Tyskland is just the translation of Deutschland, in danish.

Germanic tribes is almost all that moves around from the northern parts of Scandinavia, to Germany and the Netherlands.

There were (are ? lol) other tribes like Suebes, the Chattes a.s.o. but all merged with the later Franconian or Alemanni as Skybird wrote.

There were some germanic tribes in the northern parts of what is Germany today (but was'nt then), a tribe called Angeln or Angles, and then there certainly were the Saxons. When they tried to "invade" England (was more of a long-lasting movement), they became to be known as the Anglo-Saxons, forming parts or shires like Sussex or Wessex, as abbreviations of new Western or Southern Saxony.
When the Normans came in 1066, some of the older names stuck until today. From the language, some say that english is closer to the original "germanic" tongue of those tribes, than in today's Germany, certainly due to the isolation and on the other hand the ongoing interaction that took place on the continent.
The 'th' was a typical germanic phoneme, e.g. the gathering of chiefs to deal and speak right regulöarly, was called the "Thing", no joke.

A certain Mr. H. from Austria never understood why England declared war to Germany in WW2, by his own racial ideology they were the closest brothers :yep:

[Aktungbby]

SKYBIRD:I was born in the shadow of the Hermann Height Monument, btw. Hey I attended college in the same shadow: near New Ulm Minnesota! http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/HermannMonumentNewUlmMN.JPG/220px-HermannMonumentNewUlmMN.JPG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HermannMonumentNewUlmMN.JPG)An Arminius Pale Lager to ya! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlRpN8ANrU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlRpN8ANrU)) :O:

[Eichhörnchen]

Catfish's point about the gradual settlement by groups like the Angles is a good one (how our region of East Anglia came by its name).

It's often now said that far from an overwhelming conquest and martial domination of the areas they did occupy, the Vikings in later times (unlike their Norman descendants) were gradually, peacefully and willingly subsumed into the existing population.

[v-i-c-]

There were (are ? lol) other tribes like Suebes, the Chattes a.s.o. but all merged with the later Franconian or Alemanni as Skybird wrote.

There were some germanic tribes in the northern parts of what is Germany today (but was'nt then), … some say that english is closer to the original "germanic" tongue of those tribes, than in today's Germany

:) I am from the area where the Chatti lived (a tribe which did not moved during the migration period), scientists says the word Hesse is based on the word Chatti. The area of the Chatti became the heart of the original Hesse (which today is the northern region of hesse)

Some old people in northern germany who still speak some weird old dialect sometimes understand english. The grandmum of a friend was able to understand a friend of him from the UK. She never learned english.

When Hochdeutsch (standard german / high german) was introduced the southern dialects were much closer to it than the northern, as a result today's northern dialects are newer and much closer to correct Hochdeutsch than the southern ones who usually speak a "worse" Hochdeutsch which is harder to understand.

The word "deutsch" is based on the word "theodiscus" (diutisc, tiutsch, etc. deutsch) it means "of the people" (it is has nothing to do with "german" / Germanen etc.) - the idea of "being deutsch" was always the idea of a common language, heritage and of culture, not of a nation (the idea of nations itself is still pretty new anyway). East franconians spoke theodisce (which became todays german) and west franconians spoke a so called primitive "Bauernlatein" (farmer's latin) which later evolved to the most beautiful language of the world: french.

The well known first verse of our national anthem "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" (which is not in use anymore since 1945) is usually completely misinterpreted, it is a call to unity. It was written in 1841, 35 years after the end of the first reich.

Like Skybird already said you could say the end of the pre-germany era starts with the battle of the Lechfeld, after that the real history of germany began. Sometimes more and sometimes less united with a more or less powerful Kaiser, I guess our history is the reason why we still are a federation.

[Eichhörnchen]

:up:Thank you, v-i-c-, that was completely fascinating and so eloquently explained.

I've always been intrigued by our dark-age history in this country, but this German stuff is all new to me and totally wonderful. The part concerning your friend's grandmother was especially interesting...

[v-i-c-]

When I hear real swiss german I don't understand much more than 25%. That's why it is usually subtitled here. Actually I don't understand why they write normal german when they talk this way. It once took me 2 stations till I realized that the tourists in the tram beside me were from switzerland, I wondered what kind of language that might be.

I would say it is easier to try to understand written dutch than listening to swiss german. (BTW: the word "dutch" is also based on "theodisk")

It is much better when someone talks a real heavy bavarian but I don't understand a lot of it too and it is really exhausting to listen to it.

[Cybermat47]

:) I am from the area where the Chatti lived (a tribe which did not moved during the migration period), scientists says the word Hesse is based on the word Chatti. The area of the Chatti became the heart of the original Hesse (which today is the northern region of hesse)


Weren't the Chatti part of the Suebi at one point?

[v-i-c-]

No.

[Feuer Frei!]

When I hear real swiss german I don't understand much more than 25%. That's why it is usually subtitled here. Actually I don't understand why they write normal german when they talk this way
De Schwiezer.

It is much better when someone talks a real heavy bavarian but I don't understand a lot of it too and it is really exhausting to listen to it.

I bin a Bayer, a echter Deitscher :O::salute: So sag i immer.

Some germans mistake my Bavarian dialekt for Austrian.
I set them straight very very quickly :haha:

[Catfish]

Thanks VIC, good explanation. And i also lived in Chattia for a while, in Kassel, which again comes from the roman Kastell (and: castle)


Is this the beautiful french language, or bavarian:

"Dans y réfuse
d'avec, si laquelle,
si d'ami cher"

Feuer Frei should know :woot:

[v-i-c-]

And i also lived in Chattia for a while, in Kassel


I've lived in Kassel almost 3/4 of my life till I moved to Berlin 12 years ago.

This is what I still call home:

Kind of world's most awesome "playground" (UNESCO world heritage) when you are a child:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6H1ydAfhU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ66cjtof2g

[Jimbuna]

^ Looks beautiful...must visit one day :sunny:

[Feuer Frei!]

"Dans y réfuse
d'avec, si laquelle,
si d'ami cher"

Feuer Frei should know :woot:

Du Lackel Du :haha:

Vena laus amoris, pax, druxun goris

Ah die Zungenbrecher...

[v-i-c-]

^ Looks beautiful...must visit one day :sunny:

From the travelogue of an american:

Since then, I found about a dozen castle and palace complexes that I believed were far more impressive than Heidelberg's, and one of the absolute best was the Schloss Wilhelmshöhe in Kassel's western suburb of Bad Wilhelmshöhe. Why was it better? To use my own words against me, I found it more magnificent, more scenic, and more breathtaking. Plus, it was restored better, covered ten times as much land, had five times as many beautiful structures, and hosted several large ponds, some humongous waterfalls, and several bridges (Heidelberg had none of these)

http://www.tompgalvin.com/places/de/hessen/kassel.htm

[v-i-c-]

"Dans y réfuse
d'avec, si laquelle,
si d'ami cher"



Du Lackel Du :haha:

Vena laus amoris, pax, druxun goris

Ah die Zungenbrecher...

I try to get it but all I understand is the "si d'ami cher" part.

[Bilge_Rat]

Thanks VIC, good explanation. And i also lived in Chattia for a while, in Kassel, which again comes from the roman Kastell (and: castle)


Is this the beautiful french language, or bavarian:

"Dans y réfuse
d'avec, si laquelle,
si d'ami cher"

Feuer Frei should know :woot:

That is french. Is that the exact quote? there seems to be words missing although it could be ancient french.

[v-i-c-]

"si d'ami cher" = "Sie dämlicher" int he way bavarians would say it.

[Catfish]

@Bilge rat :
No this was someting like "kitchen latin", only in french. You have something like this in the english language, too (Pseudo-latin?):

– Brutus et erat forti, Caesar et sum iam, Brutus sic in omnibus, Caesar sic intram.
– Brutus ate a rat for tea, Caesar ate some jam, Brutus ’s sick in omnibus, Caesar ’s sick in tram.

Yes i know, it's really bad :O:


"Dahns ihre Fuesse da weg, sie Lackel, sie damischer"
is almost straight bavarian lol

[v-i-c-]

Oxdradium di curante bis si filum

[Bilge_Rat]

@Bilge rat :
No this was someting like "kitchen latin", only in french. You have something like this in the english language, too (Pseudo-latin?):

– Brutus et erat forti, Caesar et sum iam, Brutus sic in omnibus, Caesar sic intram.
– Brutus ate a rat for tea, Caesar ate some jam, Brutus ’s sick in omnibus, Caesar ’s sick in tram.

Yes i know, it's really bad :O:


"Dahns ihre Fuesse da weg, sie Lackel, sie damischer"
is almost straight bavarian lol

Ah I see!

not that surprising that there would be spillover since the countries are so close.

I studied Italian a few years ago, still do not master it, but was surprised how similar it was to French. Of course, Italian and French both have strong Latin roots.

[Aktungbby]

Mein Völkerwanderung Ist Ihre Götterdämmerung BBY!! http://www.penfield.edu/webpages/jgiotto/photos/1492781/212visigoth.jpg (http://www.penfield.edu/webpages/popup_info.cfm?info=536023&page_link=1492781&original=1&staffdir=http://www.penfield.edu/webpages/jgiotto) Good Latin was certainly never the issue: "In 390 BC, an army of Gauls led by Brennus attacked ROME, capturing all of the city except for the Capitoline Hill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitoline_Hill), which was successfully held against them. Brennus besieged the hill, and finally the Romans asked to ransome their city. Brennus demanded 1,000 Lbs. (327 kg) of gold and the Romans agreed to his terms .The Gauls provided scales and weights. The Romans brought the gold and noticed that the provided weights were fixed. The Romans complained to Brennus about the issue. Brennus took his sword, threw it on to the weights, and exclaimed, "Vae victis!" The Romans were forced to bring more gold to fulfill their obligation." From which we have derived the expression: HOW GALLING!??:03: