Subsims, eh?

[CybrSlydr]

According to this forum, the last time I was here was 27 April 2013. Today, I got an e-mail about the Crash Dive review (great review, btw) and decided to check out the forums and see what was new.

Seems like not much has happened since I was here last. SHO was either newly out or far into development. It also appears that our subsims have gone the way of the dodo after SHV. Not too surprising, but disappointing as I was hoping to come here and find some sort of Kickstarter for a Subsim or similar taking the forum by storm (I'm a Star Citizen original backer, so I know how awesome it can be).

Is there any "smoke on the horizon" or are we pretty much in the twilight?

[SilentOtto]

Amen, brother. My thoughts exactly, in fact I just posted in that Crash Dive thread, how my last login was almost a year ago...

I still think that until someone (we) create a crowdfunding project with a serious developing company, nothing really interesting will happen for us (us meaning hardcore simmers).

Godspeed!

[CybrSlydr]

I noticed something similar with flight Sims. After Falcon 4.0, they kind of disappeared until recently with DCS. Space Sims disappeared too until the X-series. Now we have possibly the greatest one ever in Star Citizen/Squadron 42. Around $55 million raisedb- and all we have is a playable demo of a few ships.

I think a kickstarter could do well - look at Warhorse studios Kingdom Come - a non-magical medieval RPG. As long as the word got out, but I haven't the faintest idea of how much of a budget a modern WWII subsim would run - obviously in the millions or tens of millions.

[OldFrenchy]

I just returned here after...I don't know how long. I had upgraded my comp a while back and decided to install SHV again.
I am surprised at the waning of the genre.

[Dread Knot]

I just returned here after...I don't know how long. I had upgraded my comp a while back and decided to install SHV again.
I am surprised at the waning of the genre.

Somebody here recently stated rather well why things are the way they are.

--the largest demographic slice that buys games is young males early teens to late twenties. Most of whom are enthralled with the coolness of graphic violence, have been unencumbered by the education system with historical curiosity and are uninterested in things that happen at the blinding speed of 10-15 knots. So for this large, desirable demographic expect the big guys to produce more of Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty, Assassins Creed and their clones and little else.

[v-i-c-]

…Not too surprising, but disappointing as I was hoping to come here and find some sort of Kickstarter for a Subsim…
…
Is there any "smoke on the horizon" or are we pretty much in the twilight?

Yes there is. I'm working since almost 6 years on a serious subsim (full time). The simulation of the boat itself itself is much more detailed than Silent Hunter, no stupid fakes, everything is calculated correctly, from diesel engines over correct hydrodynamics to the airspeed at the nozzle when blowing a tank etc.

The sim is for iOS but after the iOS release I will work on the Mac/PC/Linux. So the PC graphics will look much better than the screenshots below.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=264

http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com

https://www.facebook.com/WOTA.Wolves.of.the.Atlantic

running on iPad (with older simplified buoyancy in this movie): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28y_UB-9xEs

this one shows the water and global illumination with physical based shading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAL_24bfb4

aircraft (of course backed by blade element theory similar to x-plane) and gunner AI (models and water in this movie are just simple dummy items and not in game) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kujnOkUNRIs

All screenshots below are mobile graphics:

http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com/Screenshots/Lightning4.png

http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com/Screenshots/WOTA_U_96_iOS_light_subsim/WOTA_Wolves_of_the_Atlantic_Flower_Corvette_1.png

http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com/Screenshots/WOTA_wolves_of_the_atlantic_iOS_subsim_uboat_flowe r_class_iPad_mobile_submarine.png

…well currently untextured ;-)
http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com/Screenshots/untextured_command_room1.png

http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com/Screenshots/untextured_command_room2.png

[ReallyDedPoet]

Nice v-i-c- :yep::up:

[Wolfstriked]

OMG V-I-C!!! That is great news to me.I get a kick out of the sub physics,up there with calculating torpedo solutions and find pleasure from getting depth charged and trying to survive it.:rotfl2:

SH series never did the compressed air part of the sub justice and to see you write "The simulation of the boat itself itself is much more detailed than Silent Hunter, no stupid fakes, everything is calculated correctly, from diesel engines over correct hydrodynamics to the airspeed at the nozzle when blowing a tank etc." excites me.

Stuff like an ability to run out of compressed air IMO is one thing lacking in SH series.Right now sub is flooding and all I do is blow ballast,wait for sub to sink deep again and reblow ballast until finally my crew has stopped the flooding.Then I read that as depth increases the pressure does also and at 300m below you have enough to blow ballast one time only.As flooding increases I would love ability to slowly add air to prevent further sinking.

Also,I have for the longest time wondered how long it took to actually fill the compressed air tanks and had a suspicion it was much longer than what we have in game.A surfaced sub is blown fully with a 10lb compressor to save the compressed air always made me question the way its modeled in SH series.I recently found this web page of a link to stats of a Type VIIC. http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual.htm


Diesel air compressor. Type VIIC U-boats since Boat No. ____ are provided with one electric air compressor and one diesel air compressor. The diesel air compressor is a horizontal, double piston, two-stroke diesel engine with free pistons which are directly coupled with a four-stage compressor. Its performance is 8.5 liters/minute at 205 kg/cm².


High pressure compressed air flasks. Compressed air is stored in 12 high pressure air flasks with total capacity of 3.900 m3. Each flask has capacity of 325 liters and is tested at pressure of 280 at.

I am no math guy,please tell me is my math wrong in thinking that it takes around 40 minutes to fill just one flask and so takes 8 hours to refill the full compressed air amount?

[v-i-c-]

I don't have the time for filling up the flasks with the compressor in my head. The only number I have in my head is that it takes about 10-15 minutes to blow the tanks with the diesel.
But all the things you've mentioned are taken into account and much more (like for example the jet effect when blowing and damage to the tanks itself). The simulation of the tanks is based on papers about development of computer controlled ballast tanks. It is pretty complicated math. I've worked 6 weeks full time on the ballast tanks alone and during that time I've discussed my results with the former chief engineer of a Type VII (I've got also help from him while I was working on the simulation of the diesel).

I usually work on the more complicated things in a separate project for testing and I implement them into the game session project when they are ready - this movie shows my "test bed" for the diesel engine:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152456497769604

http://www.wolves-of-the-atlantic.com/Screenshots/testbed.png

[Wolfstriked]

Ahhhhhhhhhh that is so good to see we have a realism fanatic on the job.:D

The 10 to 15 minutes to blow the ballast fully on surface is something I simulate right now using TDW's decks awash patch.I only press surface boat if I need to catch an enemy ship and instead I usually surface only to decks awash for 10 minutes and then press surface.But with the instant refill of compressed air and the lack of realistic compressed air usage simulation its all in my head for now,but I like the realism stuff like this and the more its forced the better.

Stuff like realistic turn rates is another one.I modded in a realistic turn rate to the IX sub and found to get out of certain docks was a real chore and wished I had ability to run only one diesel for higher turning ratio.

Finally the crash dives and running decks awash.Right now in SH5 its 13 seconds to crash dive and around 7 seconds when decks awash which is way wrong and kind negates running decks awash.Now if a crash dive took the normal 40 something seconds then decks awash is a big plus for survivability of the sub in air dense areas.

I will watch your developments.:up::up:

[v-i-c-]

Stuff like realistic turn rates is another one.

This was another hard part of the development. I've wrote an (unreleased) flight sim based on the blade element theory some years ago (similar to what X-Plane does), I always thought this was complicated. But ships are actually much more complicated to calculate than aircrafts and the different necessary formulas are usually always weird estimations for certain types of ships. There are so many factors, you can't take them all into account for a real time simulation (some is really weird stuff like the vacuum in the water created when a ship is turning).
And then there is hull fouling etc.
I'm happy with the results I've got which match the historical data by 90%. I had to fine tune the hull parameters a lot till it matched the data to at least 90% at all speeds in calm sea.

[Wolfstriked]

I find that its the small tiniest details that throw me a curve ball and ruin my immersion in sims so its great to read this stuff.Please also simulate stuff like enemy ships sending SOS messages and planes in the area responding.I just attacked a freighter right off coast of Poland with the deck gun(I could see their port with binos) and I got one of those feelings that I should be attacked by a plane.Stuff like this is where realism shines.Attacking with deck gun and having to run decks awash while anticipating enemy retaliation is missing in SH series,or rather I have never experienced it before.

EDIT...you cant run decks awash and use the deck gun! DOH:hmm2:

[v-i-c-]

There will be two versions "WOTA: U 96" the first one, and "WOTA: Wolves of the Atlantic" the "full" one. The U 96 version will is simplified to make a faster release possible.

The full version comes with such things you've mentioned. It will also have a pool of enemy units and virtual production of units, which means when you sink a ship or shot down an aircraft it will be really gone which influences the further campaign and also influences calculated battles that run in the background (simplified AI battles which you don't see but they will have an effect on which units are alive and at which position at a certain time).
The AI will be split into layers from a virtual high command (running at a slow interval) over sectional commands to battlegroups and convoys commanders to single ships (which run in realtime if they are within range of the player). The very lowest layer is gunner and the watch out AI which works in shifts (will work less efficient at the end of a shift) and at different levels of experience (which the player can't know) - those AI units send messages with a realistic delay to the higher level AI (like the skipper AI of a ship). The different layers of the AI communicates with each higher or lower AI level. Which means a ship will send radio messages when under attack or when spotting a sub.

[Wolfstriked]

Sounds excellent and I cant wait for the PC release!:yeah:

[ReallyDedPoet]

I cant wait for the PC release!:yeah:


Looking forward to it as well.

[bart]

v-i-c your work so far looks very very impressive and I'm following it with much interest. Fantastic work so far mate. :salute:

Sounds excellent and I cant wait for the PC release!:yeah:

Me too......... :up:

[Punkrokker]

This looks very promising. It will be on the top of my list for games to watch out for.

[scissors]

Please don't play with my heart ..

Some of this looks too good to be true ..

[v-i-c-]

Please don't play with my heart ..

Some of this looks too good to be true ..

Just for fun I wanted to know how expensive my working time on WOTA was till today:

Multiplying the hours with what I usually charge my customers as a freelancer resulted in 1.248 Million EUR :o. But this is the rate that I use for my premium customers. When I use the lower (officially recommended) rate the result is still 548,000 EUR. When I use the total dumping price (which I sometimes was forced to work for during the 2000s) then the result is still 280,000 EUR.

In other words, no one would make such an "expensive" joke. And I guess at the end I will get only a few EUR per hour back :doh:

[nsomnia]

Ive been watching WOTA, hes making it using the Unity engine (The Forest, Spintires, Construction Simulator 2015) and I too have been attempting making a sub simulator. I have a beautiful AAA quality water system with a perfect buoyency model, kelvin form wakes, prop backwash physics and effects, weather system, day night cycle, underwater god rays to a certain depth, realistic wave splash and a beautiful exterior model of a type VII. But coding the boat physics, let alone underwater physics. Makes my head hurt too much and seeing WOTA get further and further has made me leave it.

[v-i-c-]

I have a beautiful AAA quality water system with a perfect buoyency model, kelvin form wakes, prop backwash physics and effects, weather system, day night cycle, underwater god rays to a certain depth, realistic wave splash

Sounds like you bought Frank Kane's Triton.

[nsomnia]

I wish, what a joke that asset is, its about as realistic as SH4 in terms of fluid dynamics. I played with the demo, and its not worth 450$ (and I was able to get around the time limit somehow by entering a random string and a random number into the name and serial number... weird.) I think their studio has sold something like 17 units on the asset store I heard somewhere? Plus its coded in c++ with a wrapper library into Unity. I've contacted Frank too and he sounded very arrogant since I wasn't, quote, "seriously interested in a purchase".

I am intersted to see where their updates go... but they SunDog is spending time doing Oculus development instead of fluid simulation.

I have soo many projects laying around half done (local group of C# coders and Unity/Blender/Max users.) I could call this a "Yacht Simulator" at this point haha. Underwater fluid simulation, and even surface, is even harder than Flight Sim work. Do it well however and it sticks around,look how dedicated people are to IL-2 what is it 11 years old now?

When Unity 5 comes out I may put some more hours into it the GI may make the graphics part easier but like you stated its a LOT of man hours for a small team and I wish you had the funding/team size to take WOTA further, I know how hard game design is when you/your team all has to be generalists.

Im curious is it JUST you, 5 years of work later, or a team? I havnt read your whole thread on the Unity forums just glanced through. But all I know is you are worlds ahead of anyone else in a 'modern' subsim. OR naval sim for that matter.

I recently got into Unreal 4. Wow if I had only learned c++ instead of c#.

PS your water shader system is beautiful considering its a mobile build and when I see things like your stormy weather scenes it makes me go 'Blah go work on something else'. Props. Also you do alot of sound work correct? Very curious to see how it will sound on a PC system with a pro sound guy(s).

Will post some pics of my models at some point. 3D modelling is my specialty.
If you need any blueprints let me know I have prints of everything on a type 7. Hundreds of them at hi-res. Down to the windlass gearing.

I count nearly 80 float variables just to calculate drag. You sir are simulating to the max. Viscosity, shaft efficiency, prop size, prop pitch... wow.

[CybrSlydr]

Truly impressive stuff!!! Anxious to see the PC release as well!

[Aktungbby]

nsomnia! :Kaleun_Salute:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim nsomnia :sunny:

[Lasstmichdurch]

All my hopes go to this one...great job!!!

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome to SUBSIM nsomnia :sunny:

[v-i-c-]

Please don't play with my heart ..

Some of this looks too good to be true ..

Since today you can download my new app and see some parts of "WOTA: Wolves of the Atlantic" running on your own device - some stuff from WOTA went into this new app which is part of the "WOTA" brand.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=217960

[scissors]

Since today you can download my new app and see some parts of "WOTA: Wolves of the Atlantic" running on your own device - some stuff from WOTA went into this new app which is part of the "WOTA" brand.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=217960

I wasnt actually implying you were being dishonest , Just my twisted way of saying it looks amazing and i really hope to play this one day on pc .

[v-i-c-]

I wasnt actually implying you were being dishonest , Just my twisted way of saying it looks amazing and i really hope to play this one day on pc .

Oh, no I didn't thought that. I just wanted to say that you can see at a bit of the "Some of this looks too good to be true .." content running on your own device with this new app.

[DedEye]

stoked!

:Kaleun_Salivating:

[Colombianfire360]

Welcome to subsim :rock:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome Aboard Colombian :sunny:

[Aktungbby]

Colombianfire360! :Kaleun_Salute:

[Phrixus]

I noticed something similar with flight Sims. After Falcon 4.0, they kind of disappeared until recently with DCS. Space Sims disappeared too until the X-series. Now we have possibly the greatest one ever in Star Citizen/Squadron 42. Around $55 million raisedb- and all we have is a playable demo of a few ships.

I think a kickstarter could do well - look at Warhorse studios Kingdom Come - a non-magical medieval RPG. As long as the word got out, but I haven't the faintest idea of how much of a budget a modern WWII subsim would run - obviously in the millions or tens of millions.

Well, if space sims can be used as a benchmark, it would seem that these niche genres are in a float-and-sink cycle. The X-series was for a long time the sole noteworthy survivor of the genre, and now we're having a massive revival.

It should really be pointed out that crowdfunding like Kickstarter can be a double-edged sword though. Many of those, even those started by people that are quite well-known beforehand, have laughably bad team management (Mighty No.9 and the Dina disaster that's still ongoing) and/or questionable practices (Star Citizen and its increasingly ridiculous pledge prices). There's an inherent risk in this sort of thing, and that's before asking the question of "is the subsim niche market big enough to fund one".

[wndrwtr]

The only way I can see a SubSim going back to it's glory days of thousands of players online at any given time, is when a Destroyer Command type of game is integrated into the SubSim's. Such as was done with SHII.
While the graphics have certainly improved greatly, it is obvious to me (IMHO) that players prefer to battle against each other in a predator vs hunter type scenario which the introduction of a FULLY controllable Destroyer would provide that human vs human action...Just my two cents on the situation..LOL