Tactics and evasion

[MajorArtNZ]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently playing SH4 and have recently installed TMO 2.5. To make it nice and challenging, it has been set on realistic with 80% realism (just the external camera and map contact updates enabled).

Jumping from the 1.5 stock version to TMO, the difficulty increase was significant. First time out from Manilla, I got jumped by destroyers on the surface as soon as they came into visual range. A short time later I found a task force and tried the quiet underwater approach- and was picked up at about 7000yrds and was forced away.

I picked up a similar task force one night sometime later and approached on the surface until I was ahead of their projected track, went under and went silent. Amazingly I wasn't detected, and even more amazing, there was a small hole in the formation where I had room to shoot. Fired 4 torpedoes at a light cruiser (set for 10ft shallower than the targets draft to minimise them running deep), and scored 4 hits.

http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag394/MajorArtNZ/Kumolightcruisersinking1_zpscabb1a87.png

Amazingly, it was the first light cruiser I have ever managed to sink after all these years of playing SH4. The escorts came in and couldn't detect me, but (and I know this is cheating), the external camera showed that they left a sleeper up top waiting for me to move.

So, night attacks- no problem...yet.

But what is the best way to approach a convoy during the day? What speed can you approach underwater before they pick you up?

What is the best range to shoot at during daylight (if you are in that position)?

What other tactical and evasion techniques do other skippers use? I'd be interested to try lots of different ones. :)

Thanks heaps!

[Armistead]

Make sure you search evasion, attacks, etc.....

They're numerous factors in game that you have to consider when you plan an attack based on how risky you want to play. The enemy has numerous tools, listening, sonar, visuals and radar. Weather factors, wind {bigger waves}, fog, etc... then they're your tactics, silent running, keeping a narrow profile, etc..

If winds are up, you can get by with a lot, so higher winds, I move in closer, calm seas, I'll shoot from a greater distance. My preferred method for day is to come directly from the front, about 600-800 yards to the flank of the lead escort and slowly helm my nose at him as he passes. Simply, you keep turning your nose towards him and come up as he passes. It's a lil tricky without cams or contacts on, but easy to once you get use to tracking. This should give you good close shots from about 600 yards. Course if a large convoy, I'll pop in the middle and shoot bow and sterns...


I prefer electric torps later war and hold the MK 14's to finish ships off. When I attack large convoys and get ships dead in the water or damaged I leave them alone and will finish them off later with the deck gun. but you have to make a choice sometimes...you can chase the convoy and attack again, but go to far, the damaged ships will despawn, so try to plan it wisely.

I seldom attack during the day, rather do it at night, but sometimes the group may be heading to port and will despawn on you.

Try a few patrols with the cams off, contacts on, you'll find it fun being stuck in the sub as in real life without knowing what's going on above you....makes evading much more fun. Yes, often a sleeper is left and if you think all is quiet, don't surface..scope depth and have your scope raised so you'll get a visual.

The real fun is being in Formosa, cams off, attack a 30 plus ship convoy in 300 ft of water with numerous Vet Type AB escorts that carry 3 Y guns hunting you down. Then the planes join in and help them.....

[MajorArtNZ]

Thanks for that,

The escorts don't have radar in the early part of the war do they?

Higher winds make sense, thanks, I will remember that.

If you are turning your nose to keep a smaller profile when a destroyer passes you, presumably you will have to be travelling at a certain speed to turn at the same speed as him? Wouldn't he hear you at that range?What would you do if the destroyers normal search pattern was turning towards you?

What do you think the estimated range would be during the day for them to sight your periscope?

Since I've just started playing TMO, I have enabled the camera to get a better understanding of how the targets move and their habits.. and admittedly, to help identify the targets earlier so I can focus on the approach. Eventually I will turn it off like I did in the stock version, but when your attack is successful, it is nice to watch it blow up from a 360 degree angle. :)

[Armistead]

If you do it properly, you can helm during silent running, just hit hard over.
Much depends on the size of the group and how the escorts are positioned. If water is calm, you've got to be deep and often then sonar will pop you because often escorts helm in a certain position. Just know leaving your flank open to an escort in TMO is a sure way to get pinged. Often I've been pinged and became narrow to the escort and it stops. Just remember, once they get a hit on you, they're gonna search for a period of time to try to relocate you if they lose contact. If they make contact again, the timer resets.

Hard to know exact distance with scopes. Each ships has a crew rating from novice to elite, although most mods use competent and vet settings. Crew ratings basically multiply or decrease the AI values, so a poor crew may not spot you at 500 yards, while a vet crew would. Use quick looks is the key, don't leave the scope up long in good weather conditions. My guess is short looks at 1500 yards is fairly safe. You're scope leaves a wake, so keep your speeds at 1 knot when looking close in.

[MajorArtNZ]

Thanks for replying,

Guess there's obviously no way to tell which crews are elite and which ones aren't? Does the same apply with escorts?

Have you or anyone else got ahead of a convoy, gone as deep as possible, waited for the escorts to pass you and then go to periscope depth in the middle of the convoy and lay waste? If that were to happen, then chances are the convoy would pass you by before you could even get to pd right? Haven't tried it that way before either but is it something worth trying?

Also, when attacking at night, is it advisable to get close in on the surface before going under and attacking? Or can you execute a whole attack on the surface if conditions permit it? On average, how close can you get on the surface before the escorts spot you?

Sorry with all the questions, since the game is nice and challenging, I'd like to be best prepared. :)

[Armistead]

Thanks for replying,

Guess there's obviously no way to tell which crews are elite and which ones aren't? Does the same apply with escorts?

Have you or anyone else got ahead of a convoy, gone as deep as possible, waited for the escorts to pass you and then go to periscope depth in the middle of the convoy and lay waste? If that were to happen, then chances are the convoy would pass you by before you could even get to pd right? Haven't tried it that way before either but is it something worth trying?

Also, when attacking at night, is it advisable to get close in on the surface before going under and attacking? Or can you execute a whole attack on the surface if conditions permit it? On average, how close can you get on the surface before the escorts spot you?

Sorry with all the questions, since the game is nice and challenging, I'd like to be best prepared. :)


If you're serious about playing, these are decisions you make before you attack. Determine the size of the convoy, which ships in it you want to sink, number and position of escorts. If the convoy is small, say one line of 3 ships with 3 escorts, lead and two flanks, the best attack would probably be to shoot at a 45 degree angle outside the escort screen or between the triangle. Simply, you want to shoot basically between the front and flank escort before the flank escort gets a ping on you.

If it's a large convoy or TF, you can go deep and come from the front, then pop up in the middle. To come up fast, blow tanks, but you need to bring it to a stop before you surface, so at about 150 ft set it back, set a deep depth until your ascent is slowed and then hit scope depth. You'll get up quick. Don't worry, escorts don't hear you blowing tanks in game. When you attack, try to shoot bows and sterns in one go and dive deep at flank speed and stay flank along your planned escape route. You want to get as far as you can from where your torps launched, by default that's where the escorts will come searching. As stated before, when the escorts get within 2000 yards, you'll want to go back into silent running. Your goal is to attack and get out of the search area where the escorts will be looking.

You should always attack at night if you can, that way if you attack and escape, you can surface sooner and do another end around.

One trick for night surface attacks with TMO is to shoot from a long distance. You're not trying to hit anything, but get the torps spotted. I may shoot two M14's from 10,000 yards, with the enemy coming, the distance to see or hit would be about 7000 yards. You'll have 2-4 minutes to haul butt to the exposed flank. The escorts will come searching for you far from the group and you can then go in much closer on the surface and attack the unguarded flank and haul butt again, rinse and repeat. If you shoot from long range to be seen early war, use contact settings so they don't premature.

Surface attacks aren't that realistic at night in game due to the environment. In real life, subs made attacks, then turned away and ran. With TMO, usually at night you get spotted about 2000 yards when you turn, so you end up attacking and diving. I use my own environment when I played for TMO. Basically all I changed was the night look to where you can pull off realistic night attacks...if you do the right things. Most important, as always, keep a narrow profile and slow speed.

Check out the numerous tutorials on the forum for attacks, use that search key. One day you'll find yourself heading for the deep with severe damage and you'll need to save yourself before you implode.. Check out the numerous patrol reports and stories...

[Mush Martin]

Key of course is successfully maneuvering ahead of the convoy
and let them come to you.

Personally my favorite is to lay off the track by a perpendicular
4000 yds (fast XIV's)- 8000 yds ( slow XIV's ) and stay at
station keeping for the TMA part of the process

In closer use only electrics,

after locking them up in the PK and prior to shooting
I change position to align my boat with my shooting track
causing a straight run to target and reducing variables while
presenting minimum frontage to the enemy.
(note: I am facing the enemy bows on)
just prior to the enemy reaching the firing point I commence
all back 1/3 and don't call silent running. I then fire and stay
at battle depth, moving slowly away from a relatively long range
relatively quietly.

If I am not acquired I continue to back away with my nose pointed
at the closest escort.

If they charge towards my position I commence an aft turn of
3 to 5 degrees just a slight turn, as they get within contact
Increase to 2/3 aft still turning away in front of them but
still roughly bows on, when they get to terminal distance I
hit flank ahead reverse my turn ( boat not helm )
dive for the layer or (at night)
just run underneath shallow, in daytime once I make the layer
its silent running, momentum carries me a long way from the
datum point where I left a huge slug. optionally at night I will
break for the surface and flank it out of there. In both cases
I try to keep tail on. Curving away with minimum profile again.

the speed and direction change are more than the escort can
match or track and you are putting a lot of distance between you by the time
he comes around. Also, I find that even jedi escorts tend to fixate
on the underwater search once they start it, so breaking for the
surface on there six can be more successful than you'd think.

[edit] on that other ocean I have underrun hedgehogs this way !

Mush:arrgh!:

[MajorArtNZ]

Thank you for the replies,

So the trend I've noticed here is the by keeping a low profile and ensuring your bow/stern is facing the closet escort, you are keeping your profile to a minimum?

When you try the trick of firing a torpedo in their general direction, and they see it coming and close in on that position, does that in turn make the convoy start zig zagging? Ideally you would want to keep them on the same track as long as possible?

Speaking of which, are there any tricks to employ when shooting at a target that is zig zagging rapidly? Do they follow a pattern or is it random?

Just finished my first patrol- 14 ships down. 7 fishing boats, 1 small tanker & 2 large ones, 3 freighters, and a light cruiser. Suppose that's not too bad considering the almost maximum difficulty. Then again, its early war, so the sensors and AI would be at its weakest...

And strangely, no dud torpedoes....

[Mush Martin]

what is normally done is to track the speed of the convoy along there
"base course"
the speed of the ships is not the speed of the convoy and the course
of the ships is not the course of the convoy,
but convoy speed and course is what your shooting on
after that you rely on spread to make the hit aided by oblique
angle and target overlapping due to choosing a good shooting position.

also early war turn off magnetic exploders use contact exploders and
fire so your hits are at a 45 degree impact on the target not perpendicular.
this will decrease your failure rate on mkXIV's:arrgh!:

[MajorArtNZ]

Yes, the base course is what I tend to follow as a guide. But as of yet, I have not tried to shoot at anything that is zig zagging. The same goes for destroyers. In the old stock version, you would often find a destroyer cruising along on it's own in a straight line. That's the only time I would attack one. While on manual targeting, I have never fired at one that has been moving around in different directions or when it's coming straight at me. Who's had a go at a down the throat shot and had success?

And in TMO, there seems to be a lack of targets. I understand this version is a lot closer to reality than the stock version, but I can go a fair amount of time without running into anything- and when contact is made, they're all fishing boats. On this current patrol, I have sunk 7 fishing boats and nothing else. Where would you be inclined to patrol- in closer to the shore, or out in the deeper expanse? Is there somewhere where you can find a map of commonly used trade routes to use as a guide?

Many thanks!!

[Armistead]

Yes, the base course is what I tend to follow as a guide. But as of yet, I have not tried to shoot at anything that is zig zagging. The same goes for destroyers. In the old stock version, you would often find a destroyer cruising along on it's own in a straight line. That's the only time I would attack one. While on manual targeting, I have never fired at one that has been moving around in different directions or when it's coming straight at me. Who's had a go at a down the throat shot and had success?

And in TMO, there seems to be a lack of targets. I understand this version is a lot closer to reality than the stock version, but I can go a fair amount of time without running into anything- and when contact is made, they're all fishing boats. On this current patrol, I have sunk 7 fishing boats and nothing else. Where would you be inclined to patrol- in closer to the shore, or out in the deeper expanse? Is there somewhere where you can find a map of commonly used trade routes to use as a guide?

Many thanks!!

There really isn't a lack of targets, it's being in the right shipping lanes or right areas. While RSRD is historically correct, TMO is a mix of history and randomness.

As far as zig patterns, with stock and RSRD groups don't zig much, just course changes, with TMO most groups zig about every 10nms, so you do have to figure a base course and try to figure the zig pattern to put yourself in position. Don't confuse this with what we call helming, the games attempt at zig zagging. If you get found out, the group will go into short zig patterns, but more helming, to the point it really doesn't affect your position, they still travel the basic same line.

Here is a ss from the ME showing traffic, forget what year, gives you an idea where the heavy shipping lanes are.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/Armistead1424134/download15_zpscf8181a4.jpg

There is a TMO convoy map mod that replaces the stock map showing the basic shipping routes.

Here is a common battle in TMO.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/658488-Hardest-convoy-fight-weather-changes-and-frustration

[Mush Martin]

There really isn't a lack of targets, it's being in the right shipping lanes or right areas.

:agree:

( of course if theres a lack of targets it might be that I am in the area. Lol )

[MajorArtNZ]

Thanks Armistead for the map & link. :)

It's probably still too early on to come across this, as my current patrol is March 42, but there was mention in the link of DD's with radar. Is there any way to tell they have it? Or do you just simply get spotted much earlier?

Yes, I did confuse helming and zig zagging as I thought they were one in the same. Thanks for clearing it up. As of yet, I haven't found a zig zagging convoy. It's possible I get into position quite early once they're picked up. But there have been occasions where i have got too close on an end round and been spotted by a merchant. They then start helming. I just wait until they think I've left and returned to a straight line before attacking. If you fired on a helming tagert, how much adjustment do you need to make to your spread? Wasting torpedoes is my pet hate, so any advice would be appreciated.

Many thanks!!

[Armistead]

Thanks Armistead for the map & link. :)

It's probably still too early on to come across this, as my current patrol is March 42, but there was mention in the link of DD's with radar. Is there any way to tell they have it? Or do you just simply get spotted much earlier?

Yes, I did confuse helming and zig zagging as I thought they were one in the same. Thanks for clearing it up. As of yet, I haven't found a zig zagging convoy. It's possible I get into position quite early once they're picked up. But there have been occasions where i have got too close on an end round and been spotted by a merchant. They then start helming. I just wait until they think I've left and returned to a straight line before attacking. If you fired on a helming tagert, how much adjustment do you need to make to your spread? Wasting torpedoes is my pet hate, so any advice would be appreciated.

Many thanks!!

Numerous DD's and capital ships will have radar later war. With TMO you can get APR1 radar detection later mid war. Seems you get the APR option about the same time they place radar on many of the enemy ships. Now, if you don't have APR and notice escorts coming your way fast, run away and stay narrow and they'll turn back soon enough.

In TMO most groups zig about every 10nms. Zig patterns place some load on your PC, so that's about as short as he could make them.

As for the helming, the ships really don't change course. I don't use the spread meter, tricky with yardage. With the TDC locked as usually, I'll unlock the ship on the scope and shoot by the wire. Simply, once I have my setup, I'll unlock and put the crosshair on the front, set bearing and shoot, then MOT and rear. Just be sure to click in a new bearing for each shot.