way too hard!

[fastfed]

I've played this game for years, I come and go when I get the bug and just recently came back. I've always loved SH4 for many reasons but I think I JUST NOW realized why. It's not insanely hard!

its a perfect balance of killing some juicy targets and barely escaping. But this game while im sure great in realism, is just way too hard!
It's 1942, yes the dd's are now improved and ready to kill me, but, I can NEVER survive!
if I see a convoy I know I will die, no matter what. I can maybe get a kill or 2, then dive to great depths, 200M or more, I run my motors at 50rpms, 5 degrees turning left and right, throw decoys out, time compress some, and dead.

Ok, try again, this time when I get the message of depth charges in the water, I change course harder, increase speed, it works a little, time compress.. DEAD!

No matter how hard I try, im always gonna die.
I've read many books, and even in 1942, skippers were still doing surface attacks in convoys(at night of course) ,you couldn't dare to in this game.

I can't even get close to the convoy let alone in the middle of one without getting detected. I try from the side surface, detected. From behind, detected, from the front, you guessed it.. Detected!

I try submerged with all angles, detected.
I dive to 220M and JUST SIT THERE in front of them.. before the convoy is even close "Enemy is pinging us"

ARRRRGG!G!G!G!G

:( I just wish there was a good balance, with the amount of great mods out there is there some how an easier one?

I'm running NYGM right now and the hard coded patches.

I mean, do I really have to take the real life 10 hours and not use time compression? is there a trick? or a mod?

thanks guys!

[allievo]

Late war attacks quite differ from the easy night surface runs against 1-2 usually inexperienced escorts. In 1942 destroyers and aircraft have radar so no surface attacks any more. You should have a radar-warning receiver (like Metox that is available from mid-42) with which you can get ahead of the convoy outside escort radar range (at least about 10-12 km, however they can detect you sometimes from 20 km).
For the attack you should always submerge and if you have Falke acoustic torpedoes, attack the escorts with them. Right after you fire your torpedoes dive immediately, you can follow your eels through your hydrophone, too.
If you previously played SH4, I advise you to start a career in 1940 to get used to the capabilities of your U-boat and find out the enemy's tactics.
Finally, should you still fail escaping escort after not so fruitful attacks, don't worry since in real life many U-boats were sunk even before having a chance to shoot their first torpedo. If stakes are against you, keep in mind that there always be a next convoy somewhere else in the ocean. :up:

[Pisces]

I noticed you use timecompression in the heat of the moment. How do you fare if you let time run normal?

[fastfed]

I noticed you use timecompression in the heat of the moment. How do you fare if you let time run normal?


Well in game time it takes HOURS!!! That's my point, are you guys really playing this in 1xtc when avoiding chargers? I mean I couldn't do that. I slow down to 1x every so often to change course, adjust speed and general avoidance. But I do die when I'm advancing time, lol it happens fast, boom "dead" haha

[UKönig]

I only use time compression to travel long distances, or sometimes to help just get me in range a little faster. Once the action begins TC is used to speed up the torpedo until it gets close enough to strike, then I slow it down to watch the ship get hit.
If I am the hunted, I almost never use TC, I do it 1:1 until they (hopefully) lose interest and go away.
A lot of real time can tick off the clock while you're evading an attack.
I played the in-game single mission "break through to gibraltar" twice, with different boats. The first was the type VII they give you (U-96 from das boot) and the second was a "let's try 'what if' " and I used the type XXI for the exact mission. In the type VII, I started it at 4pm (my time, real time), and by just after Midnight, (my time, real time) we pulled into La Spezia. I was so intent on avoiding the english fleet that 8 actual hours went by without my noticing.
That same trip in the Type XXI took 2 actual hours.
Above all, never use TC when being depth charged, too much happens too fast for you to react and it is almost certainly 'fatal'...

[fastfed]

I only use time compression to travel long distances, or sometimes to help just get me in range a little faster. Once the action begins TC is used to speed up the torpedo until it gets close enough to strike, then I slow it down to watch the ship get hit.
If I am the hunted, I almost never use TC, I do it 1:1 until they (hopefully) lose interest and go away.
A lot of real time can tick off the clock while you're evading an attack.
I played the in-game single mission "break through to gibraltar" twice, with different boats. The first was the type VII they give you (U-96 from das boot) and the second was a "let's try 'what if' " and I used the type XXI for the exact mission. In the type VII, I started it at 4pm (my time, real time), and by just after Midnight, (my time, real time) we pulled into La Spezia. I was so intent on avoiding the english fleet that 8 actual hours went by without my noticing.
That same trip in the Type XXI took 2 actual hours.
Above all, never use TC when being depth charged, too much happens too fast for you to react and it is almost certainly 'fatal'...


WAT!!! :stare:, I don't see how its possible, it can take HOURS and HOURS dodging charges during a huge convoy battle. How are you playing real time ? I mean I love this game too, but just sitting in the sub waiting 5-10 minutes each time for the destroyers to turn around ?

I can't see this being true!

[jakethescot]

Being the hunted is one of the reasons I love NYGM. I've sat right here many hours trying to sneak away. Some times I survive, some times not. When you do survive, it's such a thrill, it makes the time spent well worth it.

This is also one reason I sail in a Type IIa. At depth, the IIa leaves a smaller signature than the VII or IX. Maybe you should try the smaller U-Boat and see if that increases your chance of survival.

:salute:

[Sailor Steve]

Well in game time it takes HOURS!!! That's my point, are you guys really playing this in 1xtc when avoiding chargers? I mean I couldn't do that. I slow down to 1x every so often to change course, adjust speed and general avoidance. But I do die when I'm advancing time, lol it happens fast, boom "dead" haha

WAT!!! :stare:, I don't see how its possible, it can take HOURS and HOURS dodging charges during a huge convoy battle. How are you playing real time ? I mean I love this game too, but just sitting in the sub waiting 5-10 minutes each time for the destroyers to turn around ?

I can't see this being true!
It's true. Way back when I played Silent Service time compression was automatic for travel and it was a very fast 80,000x or so (one second was a day on the world map, and one second was a night), but I don't recall TC even being available in regular play. When I started playing SH1 back in 1998 I got discovered an irritating bug: If you went to any kind of TC while within sighting distance of a destroyer they would automatically turn around and come running right to your location. You had to wait until they were out of sight before attempting time compression.

The habit stuck with me in SH3, and I have spent many happy hours waiting for the escorts to finally decide I was gone. Of course I did forget that one time I was stalking a lone merchant in the fog. I was doing 32x when he rammed me. :dead:

This may really shock you: There have been players who did whole patrols in real time.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=140138&highlight=real+time+patrol

[fastfed]

Yea I remember reading that psycho's post :D

but I don't want to spend 5 REAL hours (if not longer) 1x-ing when I see a convoy

I don't mind an hour, but 5-10 hours? of real play time?

Besides I thought one of the golden rules was to never save submerged, or even in a convoy.

I think Im gonna make a new career, 100% realism, and start at 1939 and an IXB boat

[fastfed]

by the way, sailor steve.. HOW ARE YOU!!! I've talked to you plenty back in the day! 2003/2004 days.

You're the one person I always remember on this forum, shoot probably everyone feels that way, lol

Are you really still playing SH3?

[Pisces]

I have yet to play in 1942 situations. So I'm not saying I know how to avoid getting killed in that time frame. But it seems to me with time compression you are giving away every chance of responding in time to the actions of the enemy. Of course you know that if you increased speed the AI can detect that. And if you forget that while using TC, you give away plenty of time for them to notice it. Once they find you again they are as motivated to kill you as from the beginning. Don't give away your mistakes.

I don't know (and wasn't implying either) that using timecompression is like a "he's here!"-buoy popping up on the surface for the AI. Maybe it gives unfair advantage to the AI in this game, maybe and hopefully it does not. But in the interest of making it easier for yourself, and less easier for them, I suggest that you at least moderate the TC level. (you haven't said what level yet) Don't TC until you are sure that no depthcharges are dropped (or well behind you) and he is only searching. And then only use moderate TC levels until you are totally clear.

[LGN1]

Hi,

it's very important to use silent running when close to escorts. Even at full stop (0 RPM) it makes a big difference. Your detection probability is much higher without silent running than with it.

Regards, LGN1

[Sailor Steve]

by the way, sailor steve.. HOW ARE YOU!!! I've talked to you plenty back in the day! 2003/2004 days.
I'm surviving. Building models (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=192145), playing music (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=193647&page=583), and doing research for the 100 Years (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214193) thread.

Are you really still playing SH3?
At the moment I'm not playing anything, since my nine-year-old single-core computer won't run IABL's Merchant Fleet Mod, and after doing years of work on my Ship Names mod which focuses mainly on the 70+ new ship types he creates I really want to see them in action. I keep thinking I'll get a new computer, and it keeps not happening. When I do I'll certainly be playing SH3 again.

[fastfed]

I'm surviving. Building models (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=192145), playing music (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=193647&page=583), and doing research for the 100 Years (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=214193) thread.


At the moment I'm not playing anything, since my nine-year-old single-core computer won't run IABL's Merchant Fleet Mod, and after doing years of work on my Ship Names mod which focuses mainly on the 70+ new ship types he creates I really want to see them in action. I keep thinking I'll get a new computer, and it keeps not happening. When I do I'll certainly be playing SH3 again.

ahh jesus!! We should start a donate thread! no serious member like yourself should be stuck with a a computer that can't even play SH3, lol

[banryu79]

Well in game time it takes HOURS!!! That's my point, are you guys really playing this in 1xtc when avoiding chargers?
Absolutely yes.
I think it's suicidal to do otherwise (and a waste of fun :D).

I have my own "rules" on how to play the game and one of them is -- never use TC if my boat is in visual range of anyone --

[vanjast]

I was in a NYGM career at '43 then lost it (windoze system bombed).

But just prior to the loss, IIRC.. I got close to a convoy then was spotted, and chased down. I spent 8 hours (guaranteed) at TC=1x, been harassed by at least 4 escorts, or most likely a hunter killer group - I'm not sure as I operate at 100%+ :03:

I got to sleep about 4am, after escaping using a tactic I'd developed during this career. I spent at the whole 8 hours at the hydrophone station tracking every escort, and could pick out who was attacking and who was pinging.

Once I ID'd the 'pinger' I, went under that ship at full speed, then went back to silent. I kept this cycle going for the whole period, then I broke their attack rhythm, and escaped through the 'gap'.
'They' were still dropping a charge or two when I was miles away... stayed deep until dark. Funny enough very similar to Das Boot - yeah!

:arrgh!:

[Obltn Strand]

8 (real) hours shadowing/attacking convoy, same 8 (real) hours evading escorts. That's NYGM for ya.

[Kapitän]

Sh3 is not a shooter game. I only use TC when traveling longer distances, max x512. During attack and escape, always real time. If R/L time constraints prohibit that, I'd rather not play for a while and start again when more suitable.

[banryu79]

Sh3 is not a shooter game. I only use TC when traveling longer distances, max x512. During attack and escape, always real time. If R/L time constraints prohibit that, I'd rather not play for a while and start again when more suitable.
:D Another rule of mine -- Never ever use more than x128 TC factor --

And yes, that means it takes a very long time to just complete a single war patrol... but I like it very much in this way!
If I want quick & cheap videogame fun I turn on my Xbox...

[maillemaker]

You guys have too much free time. :)

I TC out of darn near everything, and use 4028 (or whatever it is) for traveling.

Steve

[Obltn Strand]

Convoy attack+escape=thing to do in rainy day...

[maillemaker]

When I sit down to play, my goal is to complete an entire patrol in an evening. Sometimes two.

Steve

[banryu79]

You guys have too much free time. :)

I TC out of darn near everything, and use 4028 (or whatever it is) for traveling.

Steve
Not much free time... I started playing SHIII near the end of February and now, after about 6 months, I am still playing my 4th war patrol (5th patrol in GWX) with my main career and just the shakedown patrol with a secondary career. :D
Go figure, I bet I can grow older with this game :haha:

[Hinrich Schwab]

I've played this game for years, I come and go when I get the bug and just recently came back. I've always loved SH4 for many reasons but I think I JUST NOW realized why. It's not insanely hard!

its a perfect balance of killing some juicy targets and barely escaping. But this game while im sure great in realism, is just way too hard!
It's 1942, yes the dd's are now improved and ready to kill me, but, I can NEVER survive!
if I see a convoy I know I will die, no matter what. I can maybe get a kill or 2, then dive to great depths, 200M or more, I run my motors at 50rpms, 5 degrees turning left and right, throw decoys out, time compress some, and dead.

Ok, try again, this time when I get the message of depth charges in the water, I change course harder, increase speed, it works a little, time compress.. DEAD!

No matter how hard I try, im always gonna die.
I've read many books, and even in 1942, skippers were still doing surface attacks in convoys(at night of course) ,you couldn't dare to in this game.

I can't even get close to the convoy let alone in the middle of one without getting detected. I try from the side surface, detected. From behind, detected, from the front, you guessed it.. Detected!

I try submerged with all angles, detected.
I dive to 220M and JUST SIT THERE in front of them.. before the convoy is even close "Enemy is pinging us"

ARRRRGG!G!G!G!G

:( I just wish there was a good balance, with the amount of great mods out there is there some how an easier one?

I'm running NYGM right now and the hard coded patches.

I mean, do I really have to take the real life 10 hours and not use time compression? is there a trick? or a mod?

thanks guys!


Others have really said it. You have hinted at it. However, I will be blunt; yes, time compression is getting you killed. Seconds literally make the difference between surviving and eating that one depth charge that kills you. I make it a rule to NEVER use TC within 25 NM of hostiles. There is just too much risk involved. Also, the AI does appear to amp up on TC. In the early war, there is a lone Black Swan corvette that appears in BF17 (or is it BF13:hmm2:) That goes completely uber if the TC is above 1.

Yes, it sucks that a single attack and evade session can last a full day or more, but that is why SHIII is a sim and not a game. Likewise, if you are using METOX, stop. METOX is notorious for giving away your position, just as it was historically. Do not bother with radar until NAXOS is available. I would also disregard the suggestion to switch to a Type II boat. Type IIs are too slow, lack endurance and cannot run deep enough to attempt any real evasion tactics in the late war.

BOLD canisters definitely do help, but BOLD I and II do not last long enough to be practical. BOLD becomes useful with BOLD III.

Sometimes, it is just nigh impossible to avoid detection. The only option is constant maneuvering in the hopes of duping the destroyers in setting the depth charges at the wrong depth. The great risk is that the destroyer may underestimate your depth drastically while you are maneuvering into shallower water and you may get killed as you cross the depth charges. Escape and evasion is constant, wild mass guessing. Sometimes you guess right and live another day. Sometimes you guess wrong and become a cloud of flotsam.

[Kapitän]

... but that is why SHIII is a sim and not a game.

:up:

[álvaro]

I´m going to do a real patrol in real time, without compression. I´m going to choose the NYGM supermod because I think the most realistic supermod. Now, I´m trying choose the U-boot and its flottille. I´m going to follow the information of historic KTB and I hope to come back alive at home. I haven´t got any tomb in the sea.

[Hinrich Schwab]

I´m going to do a real patrol in real time, without compression. I´m going to choose the NYGM supermod because I think the most realistic supermod. Now, I´m trying choose the U-boot and its flottille. I´m going to follow the information of historic KTB and I hope to come back alive at home. I haven´t got any tomb in the sea.

I have done this before. Believe me, it is quite stressful. 90% tedious boredom and 10% OMGWTF!!!!!!!!!!! :D The periods where you will be active are nail-biting. Anticipation of the kill, the frustrations of duds and the consequential necessity of a time-consuming end-around maneuver and the severe stress of dodging angry destroyers who are dedicated and motivated to make you more than dead. I have a story elsewhere on the forum where I was playing the cat and mouse game with five destroyers for over 8 hours in real time. It was extremely stressful. I also survived that encounter. I didn't get any sleep that night because I was maneuvering around and away from very angry destroyers. Even after losing them, I spent another four hours avoiding annoying them further before I could surface and make good my escape

[banryu79]

I have done this before. Believe me, it is quite stressful. 90% tedious boredom and 10% OMGWTF!!!!!!!!!!! :D The periods where you will be active are nail-biting. Anticipation of the kill, the frustrations of duds and the consequential necessity of a time-consuming end-around maneuver and the severe stress of dodging angry destroyers who are dedicated and motivated to make you more than dead. I have a story elsewhere on the forum where I was playing the cat and mouse game with five destroyers for over 8 hours in real time. It was extremely stressful. I also survived that encounter. I didn't get any sleep that night because I was maneuvering around and away from very angry destroyers. Even after losing them, I spent another four hours avoiding annoying them further before I could surface and make good my escape
This is awsome when done by other players and I can read teir AAR. :D
Too extreme, too extremly extreme to my taste, not fun and surely not pratical. YMMV. :haha:

[Hinrich Schwab]

This is awsome when done by other players and I can read teir AAR. :D
Too extreme, too extremly extreme to my taste, not fun and surely not pratical. YMMV. :haha:

I failed to mention that I had some nasty bags under my eyes from the lack of sleep and stress. :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

I usually use a fairly low TC when travelling and none when in combat. A full patrol in real time doesn't seem real to me simply because I've been a sailor, and when you're on a real ship you do other things to break the monotony, but you can't leave the ship to go to the store or to work, so to me lost time might as well be spent TCing around the ocean.

The biggest advantage was pointed out by Golden Rivet after his 1x patrol: The radio messages that everyone complains about jolting them out of TC all the time are a totally different thing at 1x, only coming every few hours and really helping to break up the boredom.

I'm glad everyone gets to play their own way. :sunny:

[álvaro]

I understand what you say, Hinrich Schwab and Sailor Steve but I want to feel the same the crew and the captain of a U-boat felt in a patrol and combat. I´m going to try it and I would like knowing if you could help me in my project.

[jakethescot]

:D Another rule of mine -- Never ever use more than x128 TC factor --

And yes, that means it takes a very long time to just complete a single war patrol... but I like it very much in this way!
If I want quick & cheap videogame fun I turn on my Xbox...

I stay at 64. One min. my time is about one hour game time. Real time when in sight of ship. Real time makes it easier to change out tired crew.

[BigWalleye]

I understand what you say, Hinrich Schwab and Sailor Steve but I want to feel the same the crew and the captain of a U-boat felt in a patrol and combat.

Sitting in front of my computer in my own home, knowing that I am a couple of mouse clicks away from restarting a saved game if my in-game persona should be killed, I am confident that I don't have the slightest inkling of what the captain and crew of a U-boat felt. YMMV.

[banryu79]

.. I want to feel the same the crew and the captain of a U-boat felt in a patrol and combat.
Oh please be rational: the only way to "feel the same" is to "experience the same" and that's impossible. You are only playing a videogame (call it a simulation, if you like it, for me SH3 leans more towards the game and less towards the simulation thing. In this regard I see DW more towards the simulation than the game thing, to be honest).

I say again: you are playing, after all... and I bet we can consider ourself very very lucky to not experience war, in whatever form.

Good hunting :salute:

[álvaro]

Es más que evidente que no has entendido nada de lo que quise decir, banryu79 . No dudes ni por un instante de lo racional que soy. Por supuesto que sé que SH3 es un juego, pero como amante de los U-boote y de su historia, puedo leer, ver películas y jugar a ese maravilloso simulador como me plazca. No subestimes a nadie, ni pienses que tus conocimientos sobre este tema en concreto, superan a los de otras personas.
Good hunting

[Zosimus]

Es más que evidente que no has entendido nada de lo que quise decir, banryu79 . No dudes ni por un instante de lo racional que soy. Por supuesto que sé que SH3 es un juego, pero como amante de los U-boote y de su historia, puedo leer, ver películas y jugar a ese maravilloso simulador como me plazca. No subestimes a nadie, ni pienses que tus conocimientos sobre este tema en concreto, superan a los de otras personas.
Good hunting

Bueno, también leí tu mensaje pero no entendí exactamente lo que estuviste tratando de expresar. ¿Exactamente cómo pretendes sentir lo que ellos sentían? No vamos a poder sentir como es pasar varias semanas lejos de nuestros seres queridos sin cambio de ropa o la posibilidad de ducharnos durante un tiempazo, ni vamos a sentir el terror mortal de estar unos 200 metros bajo el mar luchando por nuestros vidas contra personas que nos quieren matar.

Si sientes que no usar la aceleración de tiempo o "TC" te ayuda en alguna forma, ¡qué bien! Hazlo. No obstante yo la uzo cada rato y no tengo vergüenza. Ni loco pienso pasar 8 horas persiguiendo un barco cuando pueda lograr lo mismo en menos de 8 minutos con TC64. Mi esposa me mataría si pasara tanto tiempo en la computadora.

[Pisces]

Ehm, why are you guys writing in Spannish all of a sudden? (Or is it portugese?, if so, sorry)

[BigWalleye]

Ehm, why are you guys writing in Spannish all of a sudden? (Or is it portugese?, if so, sorry)

Pisces, if you cut and paste the posts into Google Translate, I think posters' intentions will become clear. Because it is so easy to translate another language, I'm not sure it serves any purpose. It certainly doesn't make the posts inaccessible to anyone. Perhaps poster felt more comfortable expressing himself in a different language and didn't trust the AI translators to render his thoughts accurately. Nonetheless, that is probably how the majority of forum members will read them.

BTW, it's Spanish.

[Pisces]

Yes, I figured as much. But that would imply that banryu79 is able to read Spanish aswel. Or else he would be just as mislead by a possibly wrong translation. Anyway, I'm sure banryu79 meant it with no offense. Please, let's all keep out nerves calm.

[banryu79]

Yes, I figured as much. But that would imply that banryu79 is able to read Spanish aswel. Or else he would be just as mislead by a possibly wrong translation. Anyway, I'm sure banryu79 meant it with no offense. Please, let's all keep out nerves calm.
I can't read/understand Spanish at all, I can read & speak in Italian and English only. I simply didn't read álvaro answer nor trubled myself to try and translate it (so I still do not know what he wrote).

To be honest I considered his behaviour (answering me in Spanish) a bit disrespectful to me (even if he didn't intended to be disrespectful but only wanted to express himself better): I too have my diffculties trying to express myself in a language different from my native one.
If I have difficulties I take more time to think what and how to write; I also use online translator (WordReference) to help myself but I always strive to write in English: I think the burden of translation is mine, not of my readers.

For me is common sense, and netiquette.

[BigWalleye]

I can't read/understand Spanish at all, I can read & speak in Italian and English only. I simply didn't read álvaro answer nor trubled myself to try and translate it (so I still do not know what he wrote).

To be honest I considered his behaviour (answering me in Spanish) a bit disrespectful to me (even if he didn't intended to be disrespectful but only wanted to express himself better): I too have my diffculties trying to express myself in a language different from my native one.
If I have difficulties I take more time to think what and how to write; I also use online translator (WordReference) to help myself but I always strive to write in English: I think the burden of translation is mine, not of my readers.

For me is common sense, and netiquette.

And your efforts are appreciated.

[Zosimus]

He said:

Es más que evidente que no has entendido nada de lo que quise decir, banryu79 . No dudes ni por un instante de lo racional que soy. Por supuesto que sé que SH3 es un juego, pero como amante de los U-boote y de su historia, puedo leer, ver películas y jugar a ese maravilloso simulador como me plazca. No subestimes a nadie, ni pienses que tus conocimientos sobre este tema en concreto, superan a los de otras personas.

Which means something like:

It's more than evident that you haven't understood anything about what I meant to say, banryu79. Don't doubt even for an instant how rational I am. Of course I know that SH3 is a game, but as a lover of U-boats and their history, I can read, watch movies, and play this marvelous simulator as I please. Don't underestimate anyone, nor think that your knowledge of the topic is greater than that of other people.

[Draka]

Hey, gang - see a lot of names from back in the day. Old 'puter blew up, lost all my work - since then a lot of water under the keel. Just getting back into this.

As to the topic, I am one that uses this as a simulator. I research historical crews, then re-create them in my games. I also never go above 128TC, and once a contact appears then it's actual time all the way.

When I am in the presence of the enemy, I DO experience a lot (not all) of the stress and emotions that would occur to the real Kaleun. Just enough to appreciate what they went through. This is, to me, the real draw of this "game" - as someone else said if I want just entertainment I'll go play World of Warcraft or one of its ilk. Lot less work if nothing else .....

Draka

[álvaro]

http://historisches-marinearchiv.de/projekte/crewlisten/ww2/eingabe.php?lang_cl=2


German Crewlists of World War 2

[Sailor Steve]

I want to come to álvaro's defense here. "Realism" does not mean "real". It's a term coined by 19th-century painters to denote art that "feels" real. No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds. To those who say we are only "playing" a "videogame" I ask: Do you use the easiest settings and just set out to kill everything in sight? Do you use the hardest settings and set out to kill everything in sight, so you can brag about how good you are? Or do you use settings that make you feel you are onboard a u-boat, as much as is possible in a "videogame"?

Realism isn't about what "is" real, but about what "feels" real to the observer. All álvaro was asking for was information on mods that would let him have that feeling. There was really no need to challenge him on that and tell him how wrong you think he is.

In the words of Rockin' Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

[BigWalleye]

I want to come to álvaro's defense here. "Realism" does not mean "real". It's a term coined by 19th-century painters to denote art that "feels" real. No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds. To those who say we are only "playing" a "videogame" I ask: Do you use the easiest settings and just set out to kill everything in sight? Do you use the hardest settings and set out to kill everything in sight, so you can brag about how good you are? Or do you use settings that make you feel you are onboard a u-boat, as much as is possible in a "videogame"?

Realism isn't about what "is" real, but about what "feels" real to the observer. All álvaro was asking for was information on mods that would let him have that feeling. There was really no need to challenge him on that and tell him how wrong you think he is.

In the words of Rockin' Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

If you will pardon me for contradicting you, Steve, "realism" was a term coined by 19th Century painters to denote art that strives to look real. "Impressionism" is the term for the artistic style that strives to create a realistic feeling. An alternative name for the "realism" style is "naturalism." Which is more realistic, RFB or TMO? NYGM or WAC ? Answer: It depends on what you like.

A good friend of mine used to say that he liked a certain book or wargame because "It confirms my historical prejudices." IMO, that's about as far as any of us can go.

[álvaro]

I want to come to álvaro's defense here. "Realism" does not mean "real". It's a term coined by 19th-century painters to denote art that "feels" real. No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds. To those who say we are only "playing" a "videogame" I ask: Do you use the easiest settings and just set out to kill everything in sight? Do you use the hardest settings and set out to kill everything in sight, so you can brag about how good you are? Or do you use settings that make you feel you are onboard a u-boat, as much as is possible in a "videogame"?

Realism isn't about what "is" real, but about what "feels" real to the observer. All álvaro was asking for was information on mods that would let him have that feeling. There was really no need to challenge him on that and tell him how wrong you think he is.

In the words of Rockin' Robbins: "Realism is in how you play, not in the game settings."

Thanks you Mr. Sailor Steve for your words. Tkanks a lots for your defense of my opinion about the banry79´s words.

[banryu79]

Thanks you Mr. Sailor Steve for your words. Tkanks a lots for your defense of my opinion about the banry79´s words.
Just to be extremly clear: I red again and again my first post and came to the conclusion that I didn't write it the right way, and that's my fault.

With the "Oh, please, be rational!" thing I didn't mean to offend you, álvaro.
I wanted to be provocative, yes, but not to place an offense on you.
So please, forgive me for that, I do not belive that you are not rational or that you are a fool because you try hard to feel like a real kaluen when you play: you see, it is the same thing I try to do when I play this game!

The point I was trying to make was another one and if I had to try and explain it using the minimum number of words to express it it will be something along these lines:

No, we can never be a u-boat kaleun, and I'm somewhat glad about that, but we can feel like one in our own minds.
IMHO we cannot feel like a (real) kaleun all we can do is that we can only pretend to feel like one. And, at least for me, this is an enormous difference. YMMV. I assume from your post here above that you agree with what Sailor Steve has expressed so I do not really know if what he said (and you) is in essence what I'm saying right here.

Sorry again álvaro, but in the future, please, try not to answer changing the language used, expecially if you switch in a language your interlocutor is not able to understand while for you is your native one.

[álvaro]

Just to be extremly clear: I red again and again my first post and came to the conclusion that I didn't write it the right way, and that's my fault.

With the "Oh, please, be rational!" thing I didn't mean to offend you, álvaro.
I wanted to be provocative, yes, but not to place an offense on you.
So please, forgive me for that, I do not belive that you are not rational or that you are a fool because you try hard to feel like a real kaluen when you play: you see, it is the same thing I try to do when I play this game!

The point I was trying to make was another one and if I had to try and explain it using the minimum number of words to express it it will be something along these lines:
IMHO we cannot feel like a (real) kaleun all we can do is that we can only pretend to feel like one. And, at least for me, this is an enormous difference. YMMV. I assume from your post here above that you agree with what Sailor Steve has expressed so I do not really know if what he said (and you) is in essence what I'm saying right here.

Sorry again álvaro, but in the future, please, try not to answer changing the language used, expecially if you switch in a language your interlocutor is not able to understand while for you is your native one.

everything are forgotten. Don´t worry banryu79. There isn´t any problem

[banryu79]

everything are forgotten. Don´t worry banryu79. There isn´t any problem
Nice to hear it! :sunny:

[BigWalleye]

Discussions about “realism” and what is, or is not, or what feels “real” are all fraught with peril, because we all mean so many different things by the word “realism.” Banryu79, it sounds like you play as I do, which is “role-playing the Kaleun”. Example: I use the “No Fatigue” model because every fatigue model for SH3 gives the player tasks no real Kaleun had to do. Others use the “working model submarine” approach. They would never think of playing without some sort of fatigue model, because fatigue was a real issue on board a combat submarine. Yet, they may use, and enjoy, an external view of the sub, which I never do. (The Kaleun didn’t get off the boat!) Still others play every available position in the boat: soundman, navigator, gun crews, etc. And these are all different ways of playing with “high realism!” YMMV indeed! We aren’t even all using a car!:)

The point here is that all of these ways of playing the game (and I am sure there are others as well) incorporate some aspects of the real-world prototype and minimize others. That is frequently the case in any simulation. Someone has to decide, based on the purpose of the simulation, what gets emphasized and what gets left out. In our case, because of the wonderful variety of mods available, each of us can make that choice, based on what we personally want from the game.

And BTW, “simulation” is not the opposite of “game.” A simulation can be a game, or not. A game can be a simulation, or not. From Merriam-Webster:

simulation: something that is made to look, feel, or behave like something else especially so that it can be studied or used to train people

game: a physical or mental activity or contest that has rules and that people do for pleasure

One thing that is clear from the definitions is that the two terms are not mutually exclusive. Another thing that is clear is that everyone who plays SH3 does so for pleasure. Not for money, not to study submarine warfare to write a book, or prepare for a course. Certainly not to improve our performance as a real-life submariner. We all do it for personal enjoyment. If we learn anything from the experience, we do so not for any practical benefit, but for personal satisfaction. And so, by definition, SH3 is always a simulation, but it is also always a game.

[UKönig]

And no matter your desired level of game 'realism' there are two things that the program cannot simulate and you should be thankful that it cannot.
The first is the horrible smell of all the different organic and even inorganic materials on board (to say nothing of the crew who are the bulk, sweaty teenagers). And the actual threat to life and limb. You cannot ever be killed. The only way you could capture the essence of fear of death and that each patrol could be your last would be to keep a loaded gun or a cyanide pill handy so that if your sim-captain died, you would be honor bound to kill yourself as well. That would put a different spin on things. So no matter what, there are levels of realism that we are better off without...

[enjoi]

sorry but SH3 is not "way too hard". I'm currently at August 1944 in my career playing the NYGM mod and I've just hit 313,000 tons. The Destroyers seem a little more difficult to shake in GWX but by no means is it a piece of cake in NYGM either. You just have to know how to escape and survive. It's all about technique.

[maillemaker]

I'm not looking for realism. That cannot be achieved without a holodeck.

What I'm looking for is a game with realistic parameters.

Steve

[BigWalleye]

I'm not looking for realism. That cannot be achieved without a holodeck.

On the contrary, it is perfectly possible to simulate some aspects of submarine warfare quite accurately using paper, pencils, and dice. It all depends on which aspects you wish to simulate, and to what level of accuracy.

"Realism" is a highly ambiguous and often subjective term which gets tossed about as though it had some precise, quantifiable meeaning for everyone. It doesn't.

What I'm looking for is a game with realistic parameters.

SteveI'm afraid I have no better understanding of what you are looking for than before you wrote your post. What parameters? And what degree of "realism" (sic)? More precisely, what aspects of the simulation do you want to see modeled more accurately?

With all the mods that have been created for SH3 over a period of nine years, it's possible that some mod does exactly what you are looking for. But before anyone else can point you to it, we need to know more unambiguously what it is you want.

[Von Tonner]

Abiding by the principle of each to his own re the games own in built choices in difficulty the other element I like to keep in mind is 'behaviour'.

I try and play the game in the most realistic way a real Kaleu might behave. To this end I read as much as I can get my hands on by way of diaries they might have kept and books that have been written on the subject. An excellent book I am busy making my way through now is "War Beneath the Sea", described as the standard work on the subject of submarine warfare.

Obviously I play 'dead is dead' (skipping the cyanide pill on my desk:haha:) and my crew are 'real' to me so what decisions I take regarding attacking, surface re-loads etc are taken with their safety in mind plus the asset I have been trusted with - namely my boat. I avoid attacking destroyers at all costs if possible for example. And taking on planes is just not even something I would go out of my way to do.

A more recent example is my current patrol. I refuelled from a milk cow in June off the East coast of the States and was all keen to go back and patrol off New York and possibly do this many times as the milk cow was going to be stationed in the grid till Xmas. And in so doing rack up the tonnage hopefully. But Sailor Steve pointed out in my post on this that milk cows were primarily there to enable boats to get back home. So if that is how it was in reality - then its back to Lorient we go and not to 'game the game' so to speak.

But as I say, each to his own. Silent Hunter 3 is an enjoyable and enthralling game however you play it.

[banryu79]

Obviously I play 'dead is dead' (skipping the cyanide pill on my desk:haha:) and my crew are 'real' to me so what decisions I take regarding attacking, surface re-loads etc are taken with their safety in mind plus the asset I have been trusted with - namely my boat. I avoid attacking destroyers at all costs if possible for example. And taking on planes is just not even something I would go out of my way to do.

A more recent example is my current patrol. I refuelled from a milk cow in June off the East coast of the States and was all keen to go back and patrol off New York and possibly do this many times as the milk cow was going to be stationed in the grid till Xmas. And in so doing rack up the tonnage hopefully. But Sailor Steve pointed out in my post on this that milk cows were primarily there to enable boats to get back home. So if that is how it was in reality - then its back to Lorient we go and not to 'game the game' so to speak.

That's more or less the same way I try to play this game, and me too I've start to get and read books, diaries, patrol reports and a whole lot of stuff on Uboote and WWII submarines because of this game :D
"Education" in its highest, funniest form :haha:

[Lanzfeld]

sorry but SH3 is not "way too hard". I'm currently at August 1944 in my career playing the NYGM mod and I've just hit 313,000 tons. The Destroyers seem a little more difficult to shake in GWX but by no means is it a piece of cake in NYGM either. You just have to know how to escape and survive. It's all about technique.

I would love to hear your technique.

[sailor_X]

Fastfed: It's not your game sprinter, even your nickname tells you do not have any patience to get along nicely with it. This game is designed mostly for mature and calm ppl inside,who doesn't do speedrunning with U-boats in critical moments. You do not look to me as that type of person, so it's not your game so far. Perhaps after you grow up older, later you might reconsider you type of playing this game with more mature manners and wisdom =]

[maillemaker]

On the contrary, it is perfectly possible to simulate some aspects of submarine warfare quite accurately using paper, pencils, and dice. It all depends on which aspects you wish to simulate, and to what level of accuracy.

There is nothing you can simulate about being in a uboat with paper, pencils, and dice, unless you are actually using a paper, pencils, and dice inside a uboat.

I'm afraid I have no better understanding of what you are looking for than before you wrote your post. What parameters? And what degree of "realism" (sic)? More precisely, what aspects of the simulation do you want to see modeled more accurately?

None. I'm generally quite happy with the parameters of SH3. I was not trying to imply any kind of shortcoming with SH3.

I'm just saying that I'm not looking for realism, because that can't be done using a computer and a LCD screen. I'm just looking for realistic parameters of the performance of the things modeled in the simulation.

SH3 is of course not perfect, but I am content with it.

Steve

[BigWalleye]

There is nothing you can simulate about being in a uboat with paper, pencils, and dice, unless you are actually using a paper, pencils, and dice inside a uboat.

First of all, if you are going to quote me and then challenge my statement, at least please challenge the statement I actually made. That was, as you quoted:

On the contrary, it is perfectly possible to simulate some aspects of submarine warfare quite accurately using paper, pencils, and dice. It all depends on which aspects you wish to simulate, and to what level of accuracy.(Emphasis added.)

Professionally, I have simulated some aspects of submarine warfare (ASW detection, submarine evasive measures) well enough, using pencil, paper, and a hand-held calculator for random-number generation, to answer questions raised by US Navy personnel regarding very basic tactical situations, in a meeting in real-time. It certainly can be done.

As for simulating "...being in a uboat," of course that can be done. Issues such as oxygen depletion during different activities, crew fatigue, communications accuracy, order response time, etc, etc, can all be simulated quite effectively and easily with simple pencil-and-paper models. These are certainly all aspects of "...being in a uboat."

Can we simulate the physical environment of being in a submarine with pencil and paper? Of course not. Can we simulate the threat of immiment death that is present in a combat situation? Not in any game I want to play.

Old and weak joke: "Reality! The ultimate simulation!"

[Sailor Steve]

Can we simulate the threat of immiment death that is present in a combat situation? Not in any game I want to play.
Way back in the late '70s when I first started playing the miniatures airwar game I still play today, we were playing a North Africa scenario in a rented room at the local Multipurpose Center. A couple of small, white-haired gents with thick accents came in and were fascinated. They started asking if the game represented the failings of different aircraft types. When we said yes, they started advising the players on the German side, and before we knew it British planes were dropping like flies. They said they were former Dutch pilots, but when we showed them one of our Dutch models they didn't recognize the markings. On the other hand they could identify the Bf-109s right down to the tropicalized air filters. It took a bit of cajoling, but they were indeed former Luftwaffe pilots.

How this all relates is the comment made by one of them before they left us: "This is wonderful! You get all the excitement of air battles, but no one has to die."

[Max Montana]

Hello guys,

Just a note that this is GWX 3.0

So it is July 1940, I am intercepting enemy convoy just 500km from the Channel, heading to North Africa most likely.

In the process of continious hydrophone checking I have run into this convoy steaming right into me, and even though I wanted to sneak in night time, I decided to use a chance and infiltrate head on.

Having found that head escort is rarely patrolling but rather going straight, I took upon a parallel course a hundred meters to the frigate's starboard.

Depth is 80m, silent running on 1kn. I am able to pass through it, but when I am at her ~90 degrees she suddenly turns the sonar on and starts to depth charge the area.

Although her attack was far from accurate, it has frightened the convoy making it harder for me to strike when I am in the middle of it, few dozens of minutes later.
I should also add that the weather was quite stormy (You couldn't use a deck gun for comparison)


The question: Is it normal? I mean, I would understand this kind of marvelous hearing at later years, maybe even in 1941. This is way too unrealistic though, and even as I am still conducting successful attacks I am thinking to abandon the idea of conducting any type of surface attack (that I am yet to try) if escorts are this overbuffed in GWX.

[BigWalleye]

Hello guys,

Just a note that this is GWX 3.0

So it is July 1940, I am intercepting enemy convoy just 500km from the Channel, heading to North Africa most likely.

In the process of continious hydrophone checking I have run into this convoy steaming right into me, and even though I wanted to sneak in night time, I decided to use a chance and infiltrate head on.

Having found that head escort is rarely patrolling but rather going straight, I took upon a parallel course a hundred meters to the frigate's starboard.

Depth is 80m, silent running on 1kn. I am able to pass through it, but when I am at her ~90 degrees she suddenly turns the sonar on and starts to depth charge the area.

Although her attack was far from accurate, it has frightened the convoy making it harder for me to strike when I am in the middle of it, few dozens of minutes later.
I should also add that the weather was quite stormy (You couldn't use a deck gun for comparison)


The question: Is it normal? I mean, I would understand this kind of marvelous hearing at later years, maybe even in 1941. This is way too unrealistic though, and even as I am still conducting successful attacks I am thinking to abandon the idea of conducting any type of surface attack (that I am yet to try) if escorts are this overbuffed in GWX.

First of all, welcome to SubSim!

“Silent Running” does not mean what it says. Silent running is not silent. It is quiet, as quiet as a 200-foot-long, steel sewer pipe full of 40 men and lots of equipment can make itself. But it is never silent. The planes have to move, the rudder has to move, the electric motors run, the shafts turn in their bearings. Water drips, a man farts, the cook drops a spoon. All small, quiet noises, but sound travels remarkably well through water. If the boat is close to a sensitive listening device, someone may pick up a small sound, and the escort captain may “light up” the sonar and even drop a few depth charges just in the chance that they will frighten off a possible intruder. It’s only a possible detection, but it can be enough to spoil an attack.

Think of a hybrid car pulling up to a stop sign. It is quiet, very quiet compared to a diesel garbage truck. But it’s not silent, especially if you are standing close to it. You will know that a 15-foot-long, 3500 lb vehicle just went by.

In game terms, hydrophone contact is simulated by a detection probability. This probability is checked against a random number at regular intervals, probably once every second or so. Running “silent” at 1 kt, the probability of detection should be pretty low. But it is finite, and so detection (in the game) is possible. Remember, your chances of winning the lottery are very small, but somebody wins all the time. And the probability of detection at 100 m is four times as great as at 200 m.

I’ve played GWX a fair amount. I didn’t find the escorts to be overrated, especially early in the war. I’d suggest you not draw too strong a lesson from one event. Play a little more to get a better feel for what works and what doesn’t.

Good luck and good hunting!

[Sailor Steve]

Welcome aboard, Max! :sunny:

BigWalleye just gave an excellent summation, so I only have one thing further to add:

...a man farts...
STOP TALKING ABOUT ME!!! :stare:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome Max :-)

[BigWalleye]

Welcome aboard, Max! :sunny:

BigWalleye just gave an excellent summation, so I only have one thing further to add:


STOP TALKING ABOUT ME!!! :stare:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

It was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it.

[Max Montana]

Thank you all for your responces and kind words,

I guess than, what is the reliable distance from the enemy escort that has a low chance of detection? I know it is variable, of course.

Also, if it is possible to hear me in such dire circumstances, maybe it is better to go directly under the escort then? Or are they regularly conducting sonar checks?

While I am still relatively new to the game, I can tell that even Happy times are far from easy, never I was able to sneak in undetected, even though I still wind up in the middle of a convoy formation blasting torpedoes left&right. I found that diving to subcritical depth and just waiting is usually enough since all escorts assume that I am moving to the side, and are not anticipating me to remain in the very same spot I have done the attack.

[Aktungbby]

Max Montana! :salute:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim Max :salute:

[Zosimus]

I can't say what others do, but for me, I target the largest ship I can in the convoy and hit it with a two-torpedo salvo. As soon as I click fire I call for a dive. I don't change course at all because I find that changing course and diving at the same time causes boat speed to drop and increases the amount of time necessary to reach a good depth. I can usually hit 40 meters under before the torpedoes hit. I usually try to go to 160+ meters under. If I hit 140 meters under and still no pinging, I level off and resume my course to take me out and around the convoy again.

[Simdude]

There's nothing wrong with using time compression, you just have to be choosy with when you use it. I'll use TC very often: whether i'm setting up an attack on a lone merchant, or trying to escape some escorts after attacking a convoy...i'm constantly switching to anywhere from 1x to 32x. Of course i'm at 1x when say a destroyer is right above me dropping charges...but once he's 500 plus meters away i'll bump up the TC a notch or two for a few moments, maybe bump it back down to 1x and up periscope for a moment to make sure he's not still heading in my immediate direction, then up to 32x until i'm far enough away to secure from silent running. Quite frankly, it's a bit boring and time consuming to just sit there waiting to see if the escort is still detecting me, and TC will quickly make it obvious whether he still detects me or is just searching my old position and dropping charges on nothing. Plus i do use 1048x while simply sailing or when there's no detectable ships nearby...i want a patrol to be a fun and interesting afternoon or evening, not a slow week of 20-30 hours simming SH3, with moments of excitement here and there.

[UKönig]

There's nothing wrong with using time compression, you just have to be choosy with when you use it. I'll use TC very often: whether i'm setting up an attack on a lone merchant, or trying to escape some escorts after attacking a convoy...i'm constantly switching to anywhere from 1x to 32x. Of course i'm at 1x when say a destroyer is right above me dropping charges...but once he's 500 plus meters away i'll bump up the TC a notch or two for a few moments, maybe bump it back down to 1x and up periscope for a moment to make sure he's not still heading in my immediate direction, then up to 32x until i'm far enough away to secure from silent running. Quite frankly, it's a bit boring and time consuming to just sit there waiting to see if the escort is still detecting me, and TC will quickly make it obvious whether he still detects me or is just searching my old position and dropping charges on nothing. Plus i do use 1048x while simply sailing or when there's no detectable ships nearby...i want a patrol to be a fun and interesting afternoon or evening, not a slow week of 20-30 hours simming SH3, with moments of excitement here and there.

Agreed! :up:

[20000 Leagues]

There's nothing wrong with using time compression, you just have to be choosy with when you use it. I'll use TC very often: whether i'm setting up an attack on a lone merchant, or trying to escape some escorts after attacking a convoy...i'm constantly switching to anywhere from 1x to 32x. Of course i'm at 1x when say a destroyer is right above me dropping charges...but once he's 500 plus meters away i'll bump up the TC a notch or two for a few moments, maybe bump it back down to 1x and up periscope for a moment to make sure he's not still heading in my immediate direction, then up to 32x until i'm far enough away to secure from silent running. Quite frankly, it's a bit boring and time consuming to just sit there waiting to see if the escort is still detecting me, and TC will quickly make it obvious whether he still detects me or is just searching my old position and dropping charges on nothing. Plus i do use 1048x while simply sailing or when there's no detectable ships nearby...i want a patrol to be a fun and interesting afternoon or evening, not a slow week of 20-30 hours simming SH3, with moments of excitement here and there.

I'm with you! It took me some practice (and lots of getting sunk) to learn the right balance of TC and 1:1. Swimming in DC's isn't the time for TC. I've found once you dart away from the DC's, slow the motors, watch your phones and you can usually TC away from the escort.

[Raptor_Pilot]

I'm with you! It took me some practice (and lots of getting sunk) to learn the right balance of TC and 1:1. Swimming in DC's isn't the time for TC. I've found once you dart away from the DC's, slow the motors, watch your phones and you can usually TC away from the escort.

It's the same with me. I use TC only after I'm sure the destroyers have lost contact with me. If they start depth charging an area that I'm not in, that's usually a good indication. I'll then use 4x TC to get some distance.