What would bring modern submarine simulations back to life?

[Rosencrantz]

Once again I found myself thinking about submarine simulations as genre. Except playing heavily modded SH III ocassionaly, I have been quite much "out-of-business" for the last few years. To me whole genre looks allmost as good as dead. That's the reason I have spent most of my limited game time with modded Arma II.

However sometimes I just find myself dreaming about modern (super) submarine simulation. Something like DW but even better. But as we know no company is probably going to take this task as it seems like next to unpossible. Why? "Because so few people would buy that kind of simulation" has been standard answer to that question for years.

A long time ago a man called Rockefeller gave people oil lamps for free. Why? To get them buy his company's product: lamp oil. This makes me thinking why people should be interested in sub sims? Why WE are interested in these "know-one-would-buy-that-kind-of-sims"? What is salt of a good submarine/naval simulation? What SHOULD be salt of a good subsim?

Any thoughts?


Greetings,
-RC-

[CCIP]

Well, the trouble is that people still need to buy subsims. Making them isn't that much of an obstacle - Sonalysts are alive and well as a company for example, and making simulations. The trouble is that they're making them for the military, because they're able to make money that way. I'm sure there is a business model out there that works for consumer subsims, and someone will find it eventually. But in a lot of ways, it has to start there - because even when you ask the question of what makes a good subsim, you already know the answer to that. We all here probably have pretty well-formulated answers to that. But how does someone make money from that? That's the real issue here.

[zachanscom]

well, getting people to buy any kind of sim, and not the **** they pass off as sims like war thunder, is like getting 10 year olds who are accustomed to harry potter to suddenly buy ulysses.

i'd like to dismiss it as a taste thing, and i'm sure people are instinctively self deprecating about being about to appreciate a sim let alone endure the learning curve for hours before truly enjoying it, but it's an unavoidable fact that sims are just not for stupid people...and quite frankly, most people, especially among consumers, are gigantic morons.

[Stealhead]

Marketing marketing marketing. :D What CCIP is saying( I think) is that there really is not a large enough market for a subsim at the moment. If you make a product you have to sell that product and there just is not a large enough market for a subsim of the caliber you guys are talking about to even recoup the cost of making the game.

Another factor due to the niche market is well previous subsims are so good that the market is pleased buying and playing the old titles.

I am not sure that it is fair to call the majority of the PC gaming market morons because they do not want to play a subsim. I have several friends that have above average intelligence that I know have the capacity to play a good realistic subsim. They either simply do not have an interest in the subject matter or they lack the patience.

Honestly you do not have to be that smart to play most any simulator you just have to have an interest in the subject matter and the patience to learn how to play. People have many tastes as well even people who do play simulators few exclusively play them. Myself I have not played Dangerous Waters in about a year same for Silent Hunter 4 that is just not what I feel like playing now. I am sure Sonalysts does at some point plan on releasing a newer sim for the public market at some point.

[THEBERBSTER]

SH4 Wolves of The Pacific Gold Edition DVD is now unobtainable.

Says it all.

[Nexus7]

Well DW and SH series are not dead actually! Buggy, sure, but playable.
From a player that likes human opponent, just an example: DW, as a development of Sub Command, added below other things the possibility to assign human players to up to all four main stations in the same sub, and if this is not ********** awesome!?!?!?!!!!

[Stealhead]

SH4 Wolves of The Pacific Gold Edition DVD is now unobtainable.

Says it all.

A hardcopy perhaps but you can buy it from Steam no problem as well as Gamers Gate. Pretty sure I can find it on Amazon of course here in the US.

[zachanscom]

a re infusion of intelligent people into the gaming market, which sadly will never happen. because smart people have literally been turned stupid by the videogame industry.

[Skybird]

What would bring modern submarine simulations back to life?
A realistic chance for sufficient revenues to make any such project a profitable enterprise. With a sufficiently big player/customer group missing, that condition is not fulfilled.

[Lexandro]

Its not just submarines having this issue, the whole simulation genre has in recent times been suffering bad sales in favour of more mainstream offerings. The main reason being is that a lot of these simulation titles fail to take in to account basic issues such as teaching players how to use the advanced options, and not having a "simple" version for usage for those who haven't yet or cant learn the full simulation system.

For instance almost all flight sim games require you to have a working knowledge of the physics of flight, and the skills required to fly an aircraft before you even start it. A complete novice who may want to learn would have an extremely hard time grasping what it is they need to do and learn with so many toggles, switches, knobs and so forth. Some sims even take upwards of 40mins in pre-flight actions just to get in the air. When you compare that to an "arcade" title of a similar theme (say HAWX or Ace Combat which have at best a 20 min tutorial before you are able to grasp the majority of the systems involved and put it in to practice), it makes sim games look extremely "nerdy" or just to much hard work and not "fun".

As far as Silent Hunter goes, the options it has do allow many new players to get wet and fire some fish with relative ease. Though the actual control system and interface is rather unwieldy and extremely counterintuative, not to mention actually wrong on non US keyboards. Sh5 attempted to resolve this, but instead the devs simply cut out actions and options that in the end were rather required in gameplay terms. The system was over simplified to the detriment of the title imo. A good game blends both arcade and full sim action so that both crowds are served in one title. For future titles, its imo about the feel and visual effects rather than the "sim" aspects. Basically for the game to gain mass appeal it would have to look good and play good in either sim or arcade setting with little between them other than preference in how you play.

I think any future sim submarine game should at least attempt to feature ships too. So that you can be both the hunter and the hunted above or below the sea. I would pay good money for that, but only on PC.

[Rex Ursus]

Well DW and SH series are not dead actually! Buggy, sure, but playable.
From a player that likes human opponent, just an example: DW, as a development of Sub Command, added below other things the possibility to assign human players to up to all four main stations in the same sub, and if this is not ********** awesome!?!?!?!!!!


I am building multiplayer missions with the RA mod. I am impressed so far.

I am looking around to see who is still here and interested in playing matches.

Perhaps sonalysts will one day come out with a new subsim.

[Bilge_Rat]

Subsims are dead and buried.

The last real hope was SH5, but we all know how well that was received by the "Community".

As I recall back then, many folks were arguing that it would be a good thing if Ubisoft dropped the franchise and got out of making subsims, the thinking being that other companies would rush in to produce new subsims....

...still waiting. :ping:

[Admiral Halsey]

Its not just submarines having this issue, the whole simulation genre has in recent times been suffering bad sales in favour of more mainstream offerings. The main reason being is that a lot of these simulation titles fail to take in to account basic issues such as teaching players how to use the advanced options, and not having a "simple" version for usage for those who haven't yet or cant learn the full simulation system.

Another problem is all the horrible YouTube sims out there. You know the ones like "Rock Simulator" or "Toilet Simulator" and the one that started the whole thing "Goat Simulator". They've flooded the simulator market and have dragged it down horribly. Plus besides upgrading the graphics for certain types of simulators you can't really do much. Take for example train simulators. Besides upgraded graphics and longer routes they haven't changed since the days of Microsoft Train Simulator. About the only thing they have left is to actually have real damage when the train crashes or have it when a boiler explodes on a steamer you actually see it explode instead of a message box telling you it exploded.

[magicstix]

Sonalysts are alive and well as a company for example, and making simulations. The trouble is that they're making them for the military, because they're able to make money that way.

Sonalysts is actually an analyst group. They don't make much software, instead they provide subject matter experts to the Navy and other beltway banditry. They're a very small company too, so they definitely don't have the budget to fund development of a game.

Even a small game needs a lot of people involved with varying skillsets for programming, art, and subject matter expertise.

Really your best hope for a new subsim game is an open-source group getting together or some kind of kickstarter project.

[Oberon]

You know...

If DCS expanded their simulations from air and ground to the sea, then we could feasibly see a more modern naval warfare simulation, light-weight versions at first, but with more complex mechanisms arriving later.
LOMAC when it first came out was very primitive in terms of complexity compared to the likes of DCS:A10C. The DCS: Combined Arms module is also rather primitive, however there have been rumours of ED looking for in depth information about the M1 Abrams, so it is entirely possible that with the new engine close to release they are looking to expand from highly detailed aerial warfare into highly detailed ground warfare, and from that the next logical step is a DCS: Combined Arms version of naval forces, and from that, hopefully a DCS module with full detail of a modern naval unit.

That, aside from indie developments (such as TheGeoffs fantastic little Sub Commander) is probably the primary future for modern submarine simulations, and honestly it's not a bad one, it just requires a little patience which is a concept that submariners are not alien to, and hopefully it'll result eventually in a very nice fully fledged multiplayer compatible arena of land, air and sea warfare in an era ranging from WWII to the present day.

[Marka Ragnos]

Janes's Hunter Killer in a modern engine and i'll buy it 100%
That game was so freaking awesome back in the day even better then Sub Command (gameplay)


I really liked Sub Command to don't get me wrong :)

[Lexandro]

Another problem is all the horrible YouTube sims out there. You know the ones like "Rock Simulator" or "Toilet Simulator" and the one that started the whole thing "Goat Simulator". They've flooded the simulator market and have dragged it down horribly. Plus besides upgrading the graphics for certain types of simulators you can't really do much. Take for example train simulators. Besides upgraded graphics and longer routes they haven't changed since the days of Microsoft Train Simulator. About the only thing they have left is to actually have real damage when the train crashes or have it when a boiler explodes on a steamer you actually see it explode instead of a message box telling you it exploded.


Indeed. That's another major facet of the problem, far to many junk sim games that make other sim titles look bad regardless of genre or quality. Its rediculous when my local store has a shelf space for "Goat Simulator" and "Train Simulator", but wont bother to stock any decent PC titles other than the ubiquitous WoW bundles and time cards. Its fueling a perception that PC gaming is dying and only for total nerds.

But we all know PC gaming is alive and well, and being a nerd isnt a bad thing either especially when everyone is a nerd about something.

What we really need is a dev to make a super sexy looking sim game, that is not based on junk. Drop in a good campaign and have plenty of sim/non sim options and its highly likely to do well.

How do I know? Well lets take a look at another title; X-com. X-com for years was a bullet proof franchise and then just died horribly. Over the years various devs have tried to re-create the same style and gameplay but not always a commercial success. But then X-com got a new owner (firaxis) who used a fair bit of "eye candy" to generate interest, along with some new features. The game itself did better than expected in sales which lead to a subsequent expansion package. While it has issues of its own and detractors, its clear it was a financial success if a modest one.

What that says to me is there are plenty of gamers out there who want games that are a bit different from the plethora of FPS and MMO games. A good sim game has a place in the market, if it can only be made to a quality visual level. Gamers these days are a little more sophisticated and wont flock to a game with a DX8 level of graphical detail.


So in summary; It has to look great, have arcade and sim options, an engaging objective based sandbox campaign and has to be marketed well.

[Admiral Halsey]

Indeed. That's another major facet of the problem, far to many junk sim games that make other sim titles look bad regardless of genre or quality. Its rediculous when my local store has a shelf space for "Goat Simulator" and "Train Simulator", but wont bother to stock any decent PC titles other than the ubiquitous WoW bundles and time cards. Its fueling a perception that PC gaming is dying and only for total nerds.
Was it a generic train sim or one of the actually well made cost a decent chunk of change ones? Actually it's pretty hard to f-up a train sim from what i've played.

[magicstix]

You know...

If DCS expanded their simulations from air and ground to the sea, then we could feasibly see a more modern naval warfare simulation, light-weight versions at first, but with more complex mechanisms arriving later.
LOMAC when it first came out was very primitive in terms of complexity compared to the likes of DCS:A10C. The DCS: Combined Arms module is also rather primitive, however there have been rumours of ED looking for in depth information about the M1 Abrams, so it is entirely possible that with the new engine close to release they are looking to expand from highly detailed aerial warfare into highly detailed ground warfare, and from that the next logical step is a DCS: Combined Arms version of naval forces, and from that, hopefully a DCS module with full detail of a modern naval unit.

That, aside from indie developments (such as TheGeoffs fantastic little Sub Commander) is probably the primary future for modern submarine simulations, and honestly it's not a bad one, it just requires a little patience which is a concept that submariners are not alien to, and hopefully it'll result eventually in a very nice fully fledged multiplayer compatible arena of land, air and sea warfare in an era ranging from WWII to the present day.

There's a lot more physics involved in a [realistic] subsim game, and Eagle dynamics would essentially be starting from scratch on that stuff. They do have a fairly good graphics engine, but it would be almost useless with the submarine aspect (the exception of course being the periscope).

[Lexandro]

Generic "train sim 20XX" title. It was 4.99 so you can imagine the quality :o

[Oberon]

There's a lot more physics involved in a [realistic] subsim game, and Eagle dynamics would essentially be starting from scratch on that stuff. They do have a fairly good graphics engine, but it would be almost useless with the submarine aspect (the exception of course being the periscope).

This is true, and I imagine that if it was to go ahead it probably wouldn't be for another four to five years before anything firm came out on that front. But they've shown an interest in diverging from a purely combat flight simulator focus, so there is potential.

[Admiral Halsey]

Generic "train sim 20XX" title. It was 4.99 so you can imagine the quality :o

Ok yeah that probably isn't going to be the best one ever. Still if you ever find a copy of Microsoft Train Simulator I heartily recommend it for all simulator fans. It's 13 years old but still the best of them all!

[biosthetique]

What would bring real Sub simulation back to life?

What have been killing the "Sim" games, are some developers/gamers deciding to create a sim without really knowing what there were trying to reproduce. They never used the machines they tried to simulate, but justified their ignorance

Sims should have been done by professional sailors. Only a few were done this way i.e. Sonalyst games

Then a good strong manual explaining how those system works, and how to use them successfully, should have been joined to the game.

Moreover, the population of simers in its vast majority was never a hardcore tactical realism simulation population, but a bunch of fat weekend warriors that liked the idea of running a sim in an arcade mode, then boast about it later. They were in it for entertainment values , not for a discovering and learning process. They eventually shifted to getting fatter with a X-Box and a couch.

Also, the amount of people wanting to run sophisticated games on crude PC's or laptops, then blaming the game as "broken" and ranting on public forums because they did not have the right amount of ram, the right video card, etc...turned down some prospective simers.

It is like that in every type of sims, all across the board.

Finally, Public Forums should have been more discriminate to keep debates on line instead of focusing on the of language used. Forum were more interested to create volume and increase it to sell advertising space, than they were about catering to REAL simers.

I saw great things happening during the SH3 Grey Wolves achievements and nothing after.

The population of so called "simers" grew quantitatively but not qualitatively and nobody wanted to pay attention to it, even when it was brought to light. It was labeled then, as "Elitism" and then some...

Why is it the way it is now, because the ones that should have cared for it, did not, and the one that really cared were ridiculed by X-Boxers, shrewd marketers or the like. It will take time, care, and attention to rebuild a community of real simers.

Real Simers into tactical realism simulation are a different breed!

[magicstix]

What would bring real Sub simulation back to life?

What have been killing the "Sim" games, are some developers/gamers deciding to create a sim without really knowing what there were trying to reproduce. They never used the machines they tried to simulate, but justified their ignorance

Sims should have been done by professional sailors. Only a few were done this way i.e. Sonalyst games
....

I saw great things happening during the SH3 Grey Wolves achievements and nothing after.

....

Real Simers into tactical realism simulation are a different breed!


A study subsim can only be so realistic. Real submarine systems, especially sonar and EW, are highly classified, far more so than your average fighter jet. At best, even Sonalysts only got a "sorta looks like it but not really" representation of a BQQ-5 suite in their games, and even that could have safely been much more realistic, especially in the physics department.

That said, all of the WW2 sensor systems have been long declassified, and I have yet to see anything in the Silent Hunter series approaching realism in the sonar/acoustics department.

On top of this, you have the problem that a subsim is inherently slow, unlike a flying a fighter jet at mach 2, you're cruising around slower than you drive to work. In the real world, there's a reason sailors jokingly call ASW "Awfully Slow Warfare." It just doesn't lend itself to highly exciting games, as you have literally hours of boredom punctuated by a few minutes of torpedoes flying around.

[biosthetique]

That said, all of the WW2 sensor systems have been long declassified, and I have yet to see anything in the Silent Hunter series approaching realism in the sonar/acoustics department.

I mentioned SHIII and Grey Wolves mod in regards to how the forum was run at that time. Look and read the paragraph again. I don't know why you attached that remark to sonars. I guess you wanted me to be wrong somewhere?

Then if it is too slow for some people, then they should not be interested by it. I personally don't find it too slow when you pay attention to details and you are focused on all the systems, because a lot can happen before torpedoes "start flying around". But if someone does not ready himself for the next steps, he might as well be playing an arcade game. Obviously, it is not for every ones, and I don't see that as a detriment to simulation.

How can you compare what is classified to what is not. Do you have access and knowledge of classified material to compare it to gaming material and express that in a public forums. Are you a bait?...Do you want to attract attention from some department?...Or pretend to be in the knowing so no one could challenge what you write since it is about classified materials?...Slippery slope to express what you did, especially if you are still serving!

Finally, Sonalyst with "Dangerous Waters" has been as far as I know in the acoustic department for a sim offered to the public. Now there are some mods that might have pushed the simulation a little closer to some aspect of reality. Mods that might not all be offered to the public. And that is off subject of the original focus of that thread, isn't it!

[ikalugin]

I think what a "modern sub sim" should offer is first and foremost the proper physics engine and then the authentic/generic submarine types.

This would preclude the secrecy issue, as players may build their own mods (they would anyway b/c modern sub sim comunity is probably even smaller than the modern fighter sim one).

[magicstix]

I mentioned SHIII and Grey Wolves mod in regards to how the forum was run at that time. Look and read the paragraph again. I don't know why you attached that remark to sonars. I guess you wanted me to be wrong somewhere?



Wow, it seems someone gets a bit touchy when someone disagrees with them. Take a deep breath, it'll be alright.


Then if it is too slow for some people, then they should not be interested by it. I personally don't find it too slow when you pay attention to details and you are focused on all the systems, because a lot can happen before torpedoes "start flying around". But if someone does not ready himself for the next steps, he might as well be playing an arcade game. Obviously, it is not for every ones, and I don't see that as a detriment to simulation.


The whole point of this thread is why there hasn't been another modern subsim released. I addressed a very large reason of why: because subsims are slow, and thus don't appeal to a large enough audience to justify the large expense required to fund their development.


How can you compare what is classified to what is not. Do you have access and knowledge of classified material to compare it to gaming material and express that in a public forums. Are you a bait?...Do you want to attract attention from some department?...Or pretend to be in the knowing so no one could challenge what you write since it is about classified materials?...Slippery slope to express what you did, especially if you are still serving!


I think you're reading way too deeply into what I said here. Did I say or even imply I had access to classified information? No. The premise of this thread is that people want a "realistic" study-style sim, along the lines of what study sims did with flightsims in Jane's F/A-18 and the DCS-world series. I rebutted that there will probably never be a subsim approaching that level due to classification issues.


Finally, Sonalyst with "Dangerous Waters" has been as far as I know in the acoustic department for a sim offered to the public. Now there are some mods that might have pushed the simulation a little closer to some aspect of reality. Mods that might not all be offered to the public. And that is off subject of the original focus of that thread, isn't it!

The realism level of DW is very much on topic for this thread, as it seems much of the thread's discussion has been "why hasn't there been another DW?" and that DW will be the standard by which any new subsim will be judged. My point is that DW probably doesn't deserve the level of praise that has been heaped on its acoustics, and that a "new DW" should be much better.

It doesn't take a sonar operator with the skill of Jonesy from Hunt For Red October to tell that the sonar sim in DW is not that impressive. You either see the contact full blast or not at all, listening to a contact never sounds realistic as it's always that same annoying knocking sound off a trawler or a simple hiss off a torpedo. Any marine biologist who's ever stuck a hydrophone in the water could tell you DW's acoustics are unrealistic. There is also a strong difference between *accurate* and *realistic,* and I personally think while DW will never and should never meet the former, it severely misses the mark on the latter.

[biosthetique]

@Magicstix:
Not touchy, just accurate.

I addressed the modern sim realeased question, not through an issue with the sim itself, but through the community that pretend to be supportive, committed and deeply into simulation of reality, when this community is vastly composed of week end warriors into simulation for entertainment purpose. Hence, the multitude of inaccurate so called "Realistic softwares", arcades games, etc... which are profitable, when the more accurate sims don't sell aswell.

It is a community issue. A community pretends to be something, and it is not what it pretends to be. So of course, as I explained already, when people are surprised by the lack of choice and don't understand why, they look at the game industry instead of looking what perspire from the public forums to the potential investors.

It is a marketing trap! a community pretends to be hardcore sims, and their members don't have the right hardware to play the sims, children that can't spell their names backward, cry on forum because there is no 3rd person view option available, they don't read the manual, they don't make research about the subject by reading books, (yes reading books without pictures), etc, etc...The list is long, I have been gaming for 20 years, and there are very few hardcore simmers.

If you want to meet real hardcore simmers, go in the serious Flight sim forums, and see what they talk about. See if it is about being right or being technically accurate about real law of physics. It might be boring for some, but it is home for others.

If I had a million to invest for a game, I would not invest it into an accurate sub sim, because the vast majority wants Hollywood effect, not real effects.

It is sad, but I did not make the community, for lack of members it enlarged its rank by welcoming Arcaders that pretended to be Simmers.

[Stealhead]

What? Righto hard core sim away. Way to insult the entire Subsim community.

[biosthetique]

You either see the contact full blast or not at all, listening to a contact never sounds realistic as it's always that same annoying knocking sound off a trawler or a simple hiss off a torpedo. Any marine biologist who's ever stuck a hydrophone in the water could tell you DW's acoustics are unrealistic. There is also a strong difference between *accurate* and *realistic,* and I personally think while DW will never and should never meet the former, it severely misses the mark on the latter.

Well, sounds are filtrated through sophisticated equalizers, to listen only to certain frequencies. Moreover, DW offers more underwater signature than just one trawler!

Besides, if you scuba dive, you'll know that the sea does not sound to your hear the same following the type of coast you are diving close to, and also at different depth. Let alone in you listen through sophisticated hydrophones in the middle of nowhere deep in the ocean. It would range from listening in a forest in spring to the Mohave desert at noon.

Now as I said, DW is the closest we would get to what is real. How good would it do to be able to listen to some frequencies, if you don't know what you are supposed to listen to and for what purpose.

Do you know how many copies of DW were sold in the US?

[Platapus]

One of the issues with simulators, as already posted, is that it requires that the customer have an interest in what is being simulated.

It would be easy, and may have already been done, to poll the gamer community and find out what percentage

1. Cares about naval combat (Historical or contemporary)
2. Cares about submarines

I would doubt it would reach double digit percentages. :nope:

WWII was the last time we had prolonged combat operations with submarines. More and more people simply don't care about WWII. We have to accept that.

There are some who like simulators because it allows them some level of immersion into some specific aspect (history/technology) that is being represented by the simulation. The rest of world just want's to play a game. :yep:

A "good" submarine simulation will, to some level, simulate how a submarine operates. They seem to focus on the combat operations of a submarine such as Detection, Tracking, Engagement, Evasion. Why? Because those are the interesting aspects of submarine operations that requires tactical decisions by the crew/player.

The question is, how often did a submarine, even in war, do this? 10% of the time? Most of the time spent on a WWII submarine was spent getting to and from the action and then patrolling the area looking for the action.

Searching for the enemy for days or weeks ain't fun. :nope:

Submarine simulators can be boring! In SH4 going from Pearl and hanging a left at Midway until you get to the other coast was not exactly edge of the seat excitement... even at 4K TC.

WWII submarine operations were probably a hub of activity compared to modern day peacetime/OOTW operations.

If the simulator focus on simulating the combat operations of a submarine, there better be some combat!

Have you tried explaining SH3/4 to a gamer who has no interest in WWII in general and in submarines in specific? I have. They look at you and wonder, why would you waste your gaming time just traveling and waiting??? :doh:

And they are right. So why do I use simulators? Because I am not so much interested in "playing" a "game" but in experiencing the "simulation" of a specific type of historical activity.

In order to make submarine simulators appealing to the VASTLY greater numbers of gamers, there has to be a change from less simulation and more game; which tends to piss off the minority simulation community.

So what is a for-profit company gonna do?

1. Make a high fidelity submarine simulator
1.1 Alienate the vast majority of gamers.
1.2 It would probably alienate the submarine simulator fans as no simulation will be "good" enough for them. Lets be honest, for submarine simulation fans, our motto is "If they build it, we will complain."

2. Make a game that is exciting and fun to play that involves submarines
2.1 Probably not attract large numbers of gamers because they simply don't care about submarines
2.2 Piss off the submarine simulator fan-base because the programmers moved away from simulator and "dumbed" it down to merely being something enjoyable to play.

The business case for this would be a hard sell. Hence programmer companies are electing to simply "not play".

The solution?

Get a kickstarter going and see if the submarine simulator community is willing to fund a new simulator? That's a poll that will count. :yep:

I will sit back and watch the fur flying while the "community" argues about what is and what ain't supposed to be part of simulator. :D:D:D

The only hope we have is an independent production and that takes money. How bad do we want a new simulator?

If a new simulator were built to MY specifications, I would be willing to plunk down $250.00 (a nice round figure). The problem is that other customers may not like "my" version of a simulator therefore would not want to put up too much money. If the simulator is not built to MY specifications, I would also be less inclined to make a large donation.

The first step is for the potential customer base to all agree on what should be included in a simulator and what should be excluded.

How hard could that be? :/\\!!

[magicstix]

Besides, if you scuba dive, you'll know that the sea does not sound to your hear the same following the type of coast you are diving close to, and also at different depth. Let alone in you listen through sophisticated hydrophones in the middle of nowhere deep in the ocean. It would range from listening in a forest in spring to the Mohave desert at noon.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Comparing human hearing underwater to what you'd hear with a hydrophone makes no sense. The human ear is impedance matched to air, and you are essentially deaf underwater, where all hearing is through bone conduction. A hydrophone is properly impedance matched to the water, so what you hear listening to a hydrophone's output sounds more like what you'd hear in air.

Well, sounds are filtrated through sophisticated equalizers, to listen only to certain frequencies. Moreover, DW offers more underwater signature than just one trawler!

Now as I said, DW is the closest we would get to what is real. How good would it do to be able to listen to some frequencies, if you don't know what you are supposed to listen to and for what purpose.


DW has no sophisticated "equalization." I'm not sure where you got that idea. All of the underwater "signatures" are lines drawn on a screen for gameplay and have no real basis in physics. This might be understandable given that DW is based on a much older engine from the late '90s/early 2000s where physical accuracy in the ocean and acoustic signatures were sacrificed due to lack of computing power. Today we have more than enough CPU cycles to give a realistic representation of the ocean, and given the importance of sonar to *real* submarines, any simulation of them should put, in my opinion, 80% of its efforts to replicating realistic acoustics rather than paying lipservice with pretty graphics.

[Hawk66]

Guys, this is the problem.

You cannot convince people, which are not hard core fans of submarine simulations to buy a sim, focusing on 99% realistic sonar or any other stations. If you want this, you probably have to develop it by yourself or wait if Sonalysts make another dual-purposed sim (civ/military).

What is what a player wants? He wants to play a game. He might like the submarine theme, because he's read novels about it or has seen Crimsion Tide or Hunt for Red October. But he surely does not want looking for hours into a simulated CRT sonar monitor. He does not want to use the TMA stations because it's boring for him.

You need to provide players with interesting decisions. You have to see such a sim as a tactical/strategical experience for him. If it is a pure submarine simulation, you might not need very sophistcated graphics at all! It is a myth that such games needs AAA graphics. Look at Steam and other stores...

You need procedural content to generate campaigns/missions to give the player new challenges. A mission editor is nice but most people do not want to use it....they want to play a game, not make one.

Sid Meier has made a great design in 1988 since he followed these principles.

[Julhelm]

Sid Meier first and foremost designed a good, fun game. It is interesting how many of the posts here give off the vibe that merely enjoying a game about submarines for entertainment's sake is something bad.

[Platapus]

Sid Meier first and foremost designed a good, fun game. It is interesting how many of the posts here give off the vibe that merely enjoying a game about submarines for entertainment's sake is something bad.

subsimsnobs.com? :D

[biosthetique]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Comparing human hearing underwater to what you'd hear with a hydrophone makes no sense. The human ear is impedance matched to air, and you are essentially deaf underwater, where all hearing is through bone conduction. A hydrophone is properly impedance matched to the water, so what you hear listening to a hydrophone's output sounds more like what you'd hear in air.



DW has no sophisticated "equalization." I'm not sure where you got that idea. All of the underwater "signatures" are lines drawn on a screen for gameplay and have no real basis in physics. This might be understandable given that DW is based on a much older engine from the late '90s/early 2000s where physical accuracy in the ocean and acoustic signatures were sacrificed due to lack of computing power. Today we have more than enough CPU cycles to give a realistic representation of the ocean, and given the importance of sonar to *real* submarines, any simulation of them should put, in my opinion, 80% of its efforts to replicating realistic acoustics rather than paying lipservice with pretty graphics.

lol!...In reality, Passive sonars listen to many frequency bands, and not always simultaneously. So yes, it filtrates frequencies, amplify them, run them through algorithym, etc...., in lemon terms sounds go through equalisers. I was not talking about DW, in DW you are listening to the final product. You are looking for a fight where there is none.

[biosthetique]

I am going to summarize what I wrote earlier in different terms, because I am not certain that my perception was accurately conveyed, and I promise to keep it simple.

Let's imagine that at any given moment, the US. Navy has 50 submarines deployed and 30 being serviced. Then, it would mean that on average 100 men per subs are deployed at a given time with 100 in R&R and training. That would represent 200 men multiplied per 80 subs, equal 16,000 men. Those numbers are inaccurate and represents an hypothesis base for calculation.

Now let's imagine that company X creates a faithful reproduction of a US sub "Y", inside/out with every key, lamps, sounds, keyboard and screen on every consol identically reproduced. Then each consol can only be used according to the real procedure. The dream of anyone wishing to intellectually know what it is to live and work in a sub.

If each of this Sailors plus the interested Gamers of the world, would buy that game, the company X would certainly generate a lot of profit.
In reality, besides the obvious security breach it would represent and the Government stopping that enterprise, do you think those 16,000 Sailors+Gamers would buy that game?...In my experience of 20 years of gaming, people doing a job all week long especially when deployed on Subs, do not want to play a game on their spare times, that mimic their jobs. They want something different, if they play on a computer at all. I have encountered many sailors playing Infantry Sims, Tank Sims, Car Sims or Plane Sims and very few playing the same thing related to their full time job. And this pattern of gaming something different from your profession is effective all across the board. Gamers in their majority don't play a game to recreate a reality they lived but game/sim to experience something different and positive, as entertainment could provide.
Hence, real simmers are very few and special elusive creatures!...Like the giant squid in a way!

So, "simulation" is really not the right effective word that should be used, or it is here used in a wide and inaccurate meaning. Then, if that game would be faithful to reality the gamers of the world or the sailors specialized in other job would have to follow a serious training more intensive than playing the game itself.

So I do believe that DW is certainly as close to reality as we will ever see a sim in that arena for that era, because even with declassified info, no one want to go through a 6 month training to know how to play such a game. And for the same reason what is given in DW is the end result information that a sailors specialized in that specific task would get before he makes a decision and/or transmit it to a superior for execution.

It is therefore, very difficult for a company to create a game that could reach a level not too sophisticated, not too simple/stupid that will please a minority of gamers (not everyone wants to be a Cpt Nemo or an Officer on the Nautilus), which number is big enough to generate profit when they buy the game without returning it or make a bad publicity in a public forum to discourage potential buyers.

Consequently, the game should not cost too much in development and be entertaining and simple. Otherwise, It is a financial bet on a community which reach exceed their real grasp. In short, it is a big financial risk, especially after 9/11.

Now, that reasoning can be challenged, that won't bother me.

[DJ Kelley]

I've skimmed through these post pretty quickly, so all I will say is this. I understand what everyone is saying about SIMS dying.

Everyone here is almost certainly aware of the Game Called Fleet Command. While FC is not a Sim, it is a game that almost anyone can play and enjoy. Because even if people deny it, everyone loves the Glory of War. Just without all the blood and sacrifice that comes with it.

Now the reason I brought that up is because when Fleet Command was first designed, it was meant to be played from multiple computers.

In other words, one player would be the fleet commander. Another would play as a submarine commander and so on and so on. If I was the one playing fleet command and you played Sub Command, then I could issue you orders.

You do not necessarily have to follow those orders, but you get the idea. Now the idea behind this was way ahead of its time, but I think if someone was to re hatch this idea it would bring a lot of profit to anyone who designed the game.

A multiple platform multiplayer Game that had each person in charge of a specific type of ship or sub, or aircraft. That would be cool. Of course everyone would argue over who got to be the fleet commander, but they would have to get over it.

[biosthetique]

@Platapus

I concur.

Sonalyst sent a hell of a message to the community with the "Near Impact" game.

I liked better "DARPA ACTUV" game type of message which represent an aspect of the future of ASW.

[biosthetique]

I've skimmed through these post pretty quickly, so all I will say is this. I understand what everyone is saying about SIMS dying.

Everyone here is almost certainly aware of the Game Called Fleet Command. While FC is not a Sim, it is a game that almost anyone can play and enjoy. Because even if people deny it, everyone loves the Glory of War. Just without all the blood and sacrifice that comes with it.

Now the reason I brought that up is because when Fleet Command was first designed, it was meant to be played from multiple computers.

In other words, one player would be the fleet commander. Another would play as a submarine commander and so on and so on. If I was the one playing fleet command and you played Sub Command, then I could issue you orders.

You do not necessarily have to follow those orders, but you get the idea. Now the idea behind this was way ahead of its time, but I think if someone was to re hatch this idea it would bring a lot of profit to anyone who designed the game.

A multiple platform multiplayer Game that had each person in charge of a specific type of ship or sub, or aircraft. That would be cool. Of course everyone would argue over who got to be the fleet commander, but they would have to get over it.

I agree it was a great idea at the time and it would be a great concept today for a tight clan/community.

Who wants to spend a Saturday from 05:00 to 18:30 in front of this computer and team work a victory?....
I do!...who else?

[magicstix]

I've skimmed through these post pretty quickly, so all I will say is this. I understand what everyone is saying about SIMS dying.

Everyone here is almost certainly aware of the Game Called Fleet Command. While FC is not a Sim, it is a game that almost anyone can play and enjoy. Because even if people deny it, everyone loves the Glory of War. Just without all the blood and sacrifice that comes with it.

Now the reason I brought that up is because when Fleet Command was first designed, it was meant to be played from multiple computers.

In other words, one player would be the fleet commander. Another would play as a submarine commander and so on and so on. If I was the one playing fleet command and you played Sub Command, then I could issue you orders.

You do not necessarily have to follow those orders, but you get the idea. Now the idea behind this was way ahead of its time, but I think if someone was to re hatch this idea it would bring a lot of profit to anyone who designed the game.

A multiple platform multiplayer Game that had each person in charge of a specific type of ship or sub, or aircraft. That would be cool. Of course everyone would argue over who got to be the fleet commander, but they would have to get over it.

This is actually a lot like a game I've been working on. In its complete design, it would be multiplayer and have lots of positions, from SONAR operator on a sub to fighter pilot, etc., and the player would have to qualify for a position before being allowed in it. That way, you couldn't just start as the captain of a sub, but would have to work up to it.

Sadly though (or fortunately depending on your perspective), I already have a full time job and more hobbies than time, so I haven't been making as much progress as I'd like.:haha:

[biosthetique]

The human ear is impedance matched to air, and you are essentially deaf underwater, where all hearing is through bone conduction.

Wow!...so deaf people can hear under water then!...

I could hear sounds underwater up to 5 or 6 meters.

You meant that it is dependent to depth.

[DJ Kelley]

This is actually a lot like a game I've been working on. In its complete design, it would be multiplayer and have lots of positions, from SONAR operator on a sub to fighter pilot, etc., and the player would have to qualify for a position before being allowed in it. That way, you couldn't just start as the captain of a sub, but would have to work up to it.

Sadly though (or fortunately depending on your perspective), I already have a full time job and more hobbies than time, so I haven't been making as much progress as I'd like.:haha:

If you made people have to qualify it would never get off the ground. People already have enough trouble getting into this stuff. So you would have to make it single player compatible, plus an online mode.

Maybe have people earn qualifications during single player mode that can then be used to let them qualify for online mode. Kind of like achievements on Xbox.

[Julhelm]

Any kind of levelling/content locking in a sim (or in fact anything not based on an D&D derivative system) is stupid and counterproductive. Why would I want to be forced into driving a Type II around the North Sea until I earn x amount of tonnage if what I really want to be doing is conning a Type IX into the waters of the Eastern Seaboard?

[magicstix]

Any kind of levelling/content locking in a sim (or in fact anything not based on an D&D derivative system) is stupid and counterproductive. Why would I want to be forced into driving a Type II around the North Sea until I earn x amount of tonnage if what I really want to be doing is conning a Type IX into the waters of the Eastern Seaboard?

Mostly because in a cooperative setting, you don't want someone unqualified being captain of your sub. :P

Here's an actual counter example:
If you're on the blue force, and your side only has 20 F-18s, you don't want someone unqualified flying the F-18s and crashing them, using up all of your side's resources.

[Rosencrantz]

At first: Thank you guys for taking part in this discussion! After few weeks abroad I was glad to find so many posts!

I found many good points from the replies most of which are probably very true. However I also got a feeling that at times we maybe somewhat missed what I originally thought this discussion could be or could bring or lead us to.

What I mean is that we can of course say "lack of market is a problem", or "most of the people are looking for the easy entertainment", or "hardcore simmers - if they do exist - are all aliens". All these claims might be true, but they still don't answer to the original questions; What is or should be salt of the good subsim or Why did we interested in subsims (submarines) at first place (= what is that we have found that others haven't).

And to make myself clear: I'm not dreaming about indoctrination of masses to become as good subsimmers, but I still can't believe that exactly everything is already done. But sure, maybe I'm just one **** of a dreamer.


Greetings,
-RC-

[Flamebatter90]

The answer is easy: Someone willing to make one.

[Julhelm]

Mostly because in a cooperative setting, you don't want someone unqualified being captain of your sub. :P

Here's an actual counter example:
If you're on the blue force, and your side only has 20 F-18s, you don't want someone unqualified flying the F-18s and crashing them, using up all of your side's resources.
That's only true in a multiplayer environment, and even then content locking is stupid. So what if someone 'unqualified' crashes the planes? Somehow BF, ARMA and a host of other games manage to make this work without locking people out of 'the fun stuff'. I think it is wishful thinking to believe players would actually enjoy spending entire games doing nothing but staring at a simulated sonar CRT and not being allowed to do anything else lest they qualify. That sounds like a surefire way to scare off any but the most fanatic of sub enthusiasts.

[zachanscom]

The answer is easy: Someone willing to make one.

that's the answer in a vaccum.

but in reality, who is going to risk years of development, thousands if not millions in budget on something that might not sell. how will he recoup his development costs?

if everyone bought study sims, all developers will be making study sims.

but that's just not what happens. companies need to make a profit.

[nsomnia]

This is a great thread why have I not seen it! We are going to start slow with a free demo, see what players like and dont like, improve, release another one, then go the WoTA route and build a real game based off of this free demo level with updates and trailers. I've got the next year of 5-16 hour days dedicated to it. Ive got a co-founder with equal input. Once we can start selling early access (I prefer early access to kickstarter) then we get the fundion required to hire specialists (like a specialist programmer to do the things our programming skills are not up to par with)

Currently we can produce a basic game because we can both do decent programming, I'm a great modeller, I have a part time character modeller on board. I've got veterns I talk to to get the realism done and were going for the whole arcade mode with the "advanced" features just tucked away in a hotkey or menu, like any good flightsim for example. You can get flying in DCS titles fairly easily after you read the manual for a few minutes, but mastering it is hard. Take something like SH though that has the difficulty settings you can change while in port, thats the direction we are taking.

This thread has been a gold mine of info! thank you guys! I wish I had seen it earlier.

The problem with indie games is they lack a budget and thus and they take forever to build, or dont come with quality.

Sorry to bump an old thread but I loved the discussion here.

[Pigmachine]

that's the answer in a vaccum.

but in reality, who is going to risk years of development, thousands if not millions in budget on something that might not sell. how will he recoup his development costs?

if everyone bought study sims, all developers will be making study sims.

but that's just not what happens. companies need to make a profit.

The Steel-beasts Pro Pe, way seems to work OK.
With stuff for the military, and a little tuned down stuff for the pretty hardcore tank simmers.

But I guess so much is classified even on the older subs, that they just aren't allowed to recreate something decent enough.
(said by a guy who read the first and last page on a 4 page discussion)

[Einhanded]

Go for modern tech. Go Virtual Reality.

I've been having a really great experience using an Oculus DK2, and more recently, an HTC Vive; It never came to mind until now how amazing a first person experience in a submarine might be. I could see it as either a sit down or room scale experience. This would be HIGHLY immersive and insanely impressive

HMS Marulken really comes to mind. Either multiplayer or single player I feel like this tech could use more games/simulations. A lot of underwater diving experiences have risen with great success, but nothing quite as technical as say, having to report back to your captain what has shown up on your radar.

It's hard to explain the experience if you haven't put one of these things on your head. It really puts the player actually inside of the game. feel the creeks and sweeps. As your ship crash dives you would actually feel the nose tilt an insane degree. If any leaks occur, they splash on your face and hinder your vision. If motion controls were used, you would be physically turning valves and pulling leavers. The more I think about this the more I actually want this in my life!

[Rockin Robbins]

Modern submarines have several problems not even related to the game itself:


There is no compelling reality story line to drive the imagination. No real conflicts. No sinkings. No memorable actions to capture interest.
There are no compelling people, commonly known and admired, who are associated with modern subs. No Eugene Fluckey, no Gunther Prein......nobody!

Without a compelling back story and personalities sales prospects are grim.

[BarracudaUAK]

I was going to ask this a while back, but I forgot where the thread was...:doh::nope:

By "modern submarine simulations".... what did the OP mean?

I can see it 2 ways:

A Simulator/Game that focuses on "modern submarines". (Like 688 Attack Sub, etc.)

Or a Simulator/Game with any submarine that uses/runs on "modern" hardware and graphics. (for example: Silent Hunter 5 compared to Aces of the Deep.)

Barracuda

[Julhelm]

Modern submarines have several problems not even related to the game itself:


There is no compelling reality story line to drive the imagination. No real conflicts. No sinkings. No memorable actions to capture interest.
There are no compelling people, commonly known and admired, who are associated with modern subs. No Eugene Fluckey, no Gunther Prein......nobody!

Without a compelling back story and personalities sales prospects are grim.
Our cold war subsim just punched through the top 20 on Steam Greenlight, after 4 days. That while being in competition with some 1900+ other games.

[Dowly]

Our cold war subsim just punched through the top 20 on Steam Greenlight, after 4 days. That while being in competition with some 1900+ other games.Getting your game Greenlit is not exactly an achievement these days. :O:

[Julhelm]

The point is our previous WW2 game took several months to get greenlit. Our cold war game managed it in less than a week. So the idea that customers are not interested in the modern stuff 'because it didn't happen' doesn't really hold merit.

[nihilcat]

Go for modern tech. Go Virtual Reality.

I've been having a really great experience using an Oculus DK2, and more recently, an HTC Vive; It never came to mind until now how amazing a first person experience in a submarine might be. I could see it as either a sit down or room scale experience. This would be HIGHLY immersive and insanely impressive

HMS Marulken really comes to mind. Either multiplayer or single player I feel like this tech could use more games/simulations. A lot of underwater diving experiences have risen with great success, but nothing quite as technical as say, having to report back to your captain what has shown up on your radar.

It's hard to explain the experience if you haven't put one of these things on your head. It really puts the player actually inside of the game. feel the creeks and sweeps. As your ship crash dives you would actually feel the nose tilt an insane degree. If any leaks occur, they splash on your face and hinder your vision. If motion controls were used, you would be physically turning valves and pulling leavers. The more I think about this the more I actually want this in my life!

We have a working VR version of UBOOT. It needs a few months of work to make all game features useable though (like map and periscope).

We may release it as a DLC some day. It's indeed interesting experience to get around the ship, give orders and the sea sickness is not virtual.

[R-T-B]

The answer to me is simple...

You don't need anything more than a good, scriptable framework, with access to everything (and/or source code, though this is probably not likely). Once you have that, you can relase frankly, the most arcadey game on the face of the earth, and as long as the framework is moddable enough and the basic elements there, modders can fix it.

That's pretty much what made SH3 what it was. It's hopefully someday going to make SH5 playable for me as well (gave up on modding that a while ago due to being unable to get a crew roster working).

If I were in charge of the community, rather than the recent bid to try to get SH5's game tools via donations, I would've tried to assemble a massive bid on an older games source code, such as SH3 (without name rights of course, Ubisoft would never do that).

We could do miracles with that.

PS: Yes, I have been on a silent run for a while. Real life, and all that.