View Full Version : Is ISIS a product of the allies politics in Iraq?
Throughout the last few month I have heard commentators on CNN, BBC World News and on our Danish and Swedish news channel.
I get the feeling that the crisis in Iraq may have something to do with the allied politics or the lack of it.
It seem like they rushed right in and left without thinking about the political future for Iraqi people.
Some commentators(Swedish if I remember correctly) mentioned the leader of Iraq and said he was nothing more than USA'a marionette.
I hope I'm wrong I wish I'm wrong.
Markus
Well, after the Iraqis elected their own Government, this same Government decided they didn't want American troops stationed in their country. So we had to leave.
Some might say with their great hindsight that we should have kept troops there anyway, but if part of the goofy reason we went in there in the first place was to give them democracy, then how can we dictate to them that we should have troops stationed there? They would have become targets then.
Malarki has spent a lot of time flying from Baghdad to Tehran, seems he has a lot of friends there too. I believe the Iranians used a lot of influence in the decision for all foreign troops to leave Iraq.
We spent years and a lot of money training and equipping the Iraqi army and police, along with the help of other countries. Why is it the rest of the worlds fault if they run away from ISIS?
kraznyi_oktjabr
08-09-14, 01:21 PM
It seem like they rushed right in and left without thinking about the political future for Iraqi people.Markus, Articles which I have read during last few years have painted picture that there was no plan. They alleged (and I see no reason dismiss them) that commander of invasion force was in belief, that Iraqis would take them as liberators and then American would leave. I have seen no evidence that plans by which war was executed at start took into any consideration such little things as insurgency and "what after when we leave?".
In my opinion whole Iraq War was exceptionally incompetently led mess. If someone can prove that I'm wrong here please post links to your evidence.
In another word. The allies won the war but lost the peace
Markus
Skybird
08-09-14, 01:33 PM
It does back to 2003, mapuc. After they had defeated the Iraqi army, they showed that they had no real plan for governing it. Paul Bremer then decided it would be a clever idea to dismantle the Iraqi army, security forces and intelligence services, sending all of a sudden tens of thousands of armed former employees (soldiers and generals) into joblessness with their income gone, their competence and experience ignored, and their privileges taken away. No good idea, since the ruling elites were of the ruling Sunni minority.
Then came Maliki who did nothing to bridsge gaps between ethnciities, but helped to wioden then. Sunni and Kurds are masisvely discmrinated, the detah squads last time I heard of them (maybe one year ago) terrorized the people worse than they ever did under Hussein and especially target Sunni and Kurds, and corruption and nepotism under Maliki has become policy of the day.
It seems the Sunni have had enough of post war Iraq and Maliki. They radicalised, started to love jihad, collected experience in Syria, and then formed ISIS and discovered their love to not just take Iraq, but the whole ME.
Yes, Wetsern /American policies have plentya to do with ISIS existing today. The Amerians did not intentionally form ISIS like once the Pakistani founded the Taliban, but still, they share the lions share of responsibility.
It was stupid to invade Iraq, the claims why it was done were lies, and starting all that mess without a plan for the time after the Iraqi army had surrendered was irresponsibly. But the revolts then emerging, the ethnic tensions growing, and the role of religious radicalization - all that was forseeable and predictable, and as a matter of fact it was forseen and warned of by some people.
Its just that these irresponsible, self-glorifying retards in Washington decided to not listen to everybody telling them what they did not want to hear.
They should have done like they did with the ruins of the Third Reich: making use of the remains of the German police and administration in the cities and regions, instead of destroying these last remains of administration as well and leave all Germany open to anarchy.
Nothing what has happened in Iraq since then, and ISIS as well - nothing of all that comes as a surprise to me. And I talked like that already ten years ago.
Skybird
08-09-14, 01:34 PM
It goes back to 2003, mapuc. After they had defeated the Iraqi army, they showed that they had no real plan for governing it. Paul Bremer then decided it would be a clever idea to dismantle the Iraqi army, security forces and intelligence services, sending all of a sudden tens of thousands of armed former employees (soldiers and generals) into joblessness with their income gone, their competence and experience ignored, and their privileges taken away. No good idea, since the ruling elites were of the ruling Sunni minority.
Then came Maliki who did nothing to bridsge gaps between ethnciities, but helped to wioden then. Sunni and Kurds are masisvely discmrinated, the detah squads last time I heard of them (maybe one year ago) terrorized the people worse than they ever did under Hussein and especially target Sunni and Kurds, and corruption and nepotism under Maliki has become policy of the day.
It seems the Sunni have had enough of post war Iraq and Maliki. They radicalised, started to love jihad, collected experience in Syria, and then formed ISIS and discovered their love to not just take Iraq, but the whole ME.
Yes, Wetsern /American policies have plentya to do with ISIS existing today. The Amerians did not intentionally form ISIS like once the Pakistani founded the Taliban, but still, they share the lions share of responsibility.
It was stupid to invade Iraq, the claims why it was done were lies, and starting all that mess without a plan for the time after the Iraqi army had surrendered was irresponsibly. But the revolts then emerging, the ethnic tensions growing, and the role of religious radicalization - all that was forseeable and predictable, and as a matter of fact it was forseen and warned of by some people.
Its just that these irresponsible, self-glorifying retards in Washington decided to not listen to everybody telling them what they did not want to hear.
They should have done like they did with the ruins of the Third Reich: making use of the remains of the German police and administration in the cities and regions, instead of destroying these last remains of administration as well and leave all Germany open to anarchy.
Nothing what has happened in Iraq since then, and ISIS as well - nothing of all that comes as a surprise to me. And I talked like that already ten years ago.
Lets not forget that ISIS got its start in Syria, part of the Arab Spring uprising. But, please, don't hold them responsible.
And yes I was against the war in Iraq, and they had no plan for after the war. Whole thing was ignorant.
Still no excuse for how the Iraqi army ran away when the going got tough. Iraqis are real good with IED's and car bombs, guerrilla type warfare, but when it comes to fighting an organized army, they fold.
Schöneboom
08-09-14, 02:08 PM
As usual, follow the money. Looks to me like ISIS was anything but a spontaneous grassroots movement. Some very high rollers got this proxy army started (and they may live to regret it):
http://www.dw.de/who-finances-isis/a-17720149
I'd say yes and no in equal measures. Saddam wasn't a young guy, and eventually he would have kicked the bucket, now Qusay would have had a fair shot at running the country, maybe even reforming it but in that unstable moment in leadership transition there's a distinct possibility that Iraq could have fallen into civil war anyway, especially since the neighbouring civil war in Syria would have caused extreme destablisation on the western border. I'm almost certain that Saddam would have joined Assad in using chemical weapons in order to maintain order.
ISIS is one part a creation of the side effects of the Arab Spring, and that was not created as a part of the wests deployment into Iraq, that started (officially at least) in Tunisia and spread east. However, it cannot be denied that the instability in Iraq caused by the western attempt at nation building has only served to exacerbate the problem, so I'd say that it was a 50/50 split.
Of course, if you want to go back a bit further, you could equally say that it was most likely more a product of the Triple Ententes politics in Assyria, in particular the Sykes-Picot agreement, and to be honest it's quite surprising that it has lasted the nearly 100 years that it has. :hmmm:
Armistead
08-09-14, 03:30 PM
Skybird probably said it, but there were numerous blunders, but one I think must be point out is our timeline to leave.
Bush and Maliki actually had a good working relationship and with us there he was able to govern much better. When Obama took office Maliki no longer had a friend in the WH, worse, he knew he Americans were going to bail. It was then he started his campaign of Shia power, because of fear without the US and the strong division of Shia and Sunni. Maliki was not the right player, but I think the only player left was for the US to maintain control of the govt for several more years. This would've been the best thing for Iraq, but Bush was more concerned with his legacy of democracy there before he left office, not to mention the lack of public support waning.
Now it's genocide either way. ISIS will continue it's blood mania, taking more towns, more mass killings. If we were to intervene big time, we would kill probably as many civilians getting the cities back. That's why if we are to intervene, we must do it now. Course, we'd fall into world condemnation once we started taking the cities back, but Obama isn't going to do it.
...and that dam....if ISIS lost that city, I bet they would blow it...
Armistead
08-09-14, 03:32 PM
Skybird probably said it, but there were numerous blunders, but one I think must be point out is our timeline to leave.
Bush and Maliki actually had a good working relationship and with us there he was able to govern much better. When Obama took office Maliki no longer had a friend in the WH..worse, he knew he Americans were going to bail. It was then he started his campaign of Shia power, because of fear without the US and the strong division of Shia and Sunni.
Maliki was not the right player, but I think the only player left was for the US to maintain control of the govt for several more years. This would've been the best thing for Iraq, but Bush was more concerned with his legacy of democracy there before he left office, not to mention the lack of public support waning.
Now it's genocide either way. ISIS will continue it's blood mania, taking more towns, more mass killings. If we were to intervene big time, we would kill probably as many civilians getting the cities back. That's why if we are to intervene, we must do it now. Course, we'd fall into world condemnation once we started taking the cities back, but Obama isn't going to do it.
...and that dam....if ISIS lost that city, I bet they would blow it...they already said they could flood like in the days of Noah. If I understand there's another dam they will take control of....You control the water..you control a lot.
The thing is, in this case he was acting for the will of the American people, or certainly those who voted him into office, America was sick of Iraq, America wanted out of Iraq and to hell with the consequences, I believe the common line of thought was "if there's a civil war, that's their problem", all that America wanted to do was get the troops back home, pull up the drawbridge and say to hell with the Middle East. Heck, it still does, so really if Obama had tried to sell to the US public the American military staying in Iraq until the late 2010s then his approval ratings would have fallen faster than Baghdad did.
Cause and Effect really.
Had some thoughts when I heard some political expert in middle east said something about the Iraqi army and how badly trained they seem to be and had no confident in their belief(can't remember the exact phrase he used)
Here's my thought
How well would ISIS have succeeded if Saddam still had the power? I somehow recall the headlines from the time where he crushed every uprising in Iraq without mercy.
I'm not saying that it was a very bad idea to remove Saddam on the contrary, it was the best thing for the Iraqi people. but no "Marshall" plan thereafter well.....
Either the Leader of Iraq find a political solution where every fraction in the country is presented in a democratic government or he, a part I don't like, get better trained and equipped soldiers and crush this uprising.
Markus
Armistead
08-09-14, 04:21 PM
The thing is, in this case he was acting for the will of the American people, or certainly those who voted him into office, America was sick of Iraq, America wanted out of Iraq and to hell with the consequences, I believe the common line of thought was "if there's a civil war, that's their problem", all that America wanted to do was get the troops back home, pull up the drawbridge and say to hell with the Middle East. Heck, it still does, so really if Obama had tried to sell to the US public the American military staying in Iraq until the late 2010s then his approval ratings would have fallen faster than Baghdad did.
Cause and Effect really.
We have a short memory and most don't understand the facts, culture or climate. Politicians then don't base policy on facts, but what will get them into power....doesn't matter if it cost a million lives.
Dread Knot
08-09-14, 04:49 PM
How well would ISIS have succeeded if Saddam still had the power? I somehow recall the headlines from the time where he crushed every uprising in Iraq without mercy.
Given that Saddam was Sunni and ISIS is Sunni there likely would have no uprising to begin with. It was Sunni resentment of Shia rule that sparked the current uprising.
We have a short memory and most don't understand the facts, culture or climate. Politicians then don't base policy on facts, but what will get them into power....doesn't matter if it cost a million lives.
Most don't see the irony of acting on duff intel provided by a prisoner that was tortured. :know:
Given that Saddam was Sunni and ISIS is Sunni there likely would have no uprising to begin with. It was Sunni resentment of Shia rule that sparked the current uprising.
1-0 to you I never thought of that.
Markus
Armistead
08-09-14, 05:39 PM
Most don't see the irony of acting on duff intel provided by a prisoner that was tortured. :know:
Never said otherwise...However, Hussein certainly met the standard by the GC to go to war with anyway, not that I would've. Like I've said, in the ME it takes a cruel dictator to lead the culture..
Then by that standard there would be at least a dozen other candidates for going to war with.:ping:
Armistead
08-09-14, 06:17 PM
I said I agreed with you....Accept it..:stare:
Aktungbby
08-09-14, 08:44 PM
Given that Saddam was Sunni and ISIS is Sunni there likely would have no uprising to begin with. It was Sunni resentment of Shia rule that sparked the current uprising.
BINGO! And really no different than the the Tutsi and Hutu mess in Rwanda both are colonial-collapse power struggles. We managed to stay out of Rwanda we should do the same here and in Afghanistan-those are post- colonial "great game" messes of empires long collapsed, 1918, namely British, Russian and French (Annam) and of course the Belgian Congo...which is just lovely with rollover Rwanda/Hutu issues I understand. We should stick to the Monroe Doctrine in reverse: they stay out of our hemisphere-- we stay out of theirs. We managed it with the Kaiser in Central America prior to WWI and the Cuban Missile crises in the 60's...All we do now is repeat everyone elses old mistakes.:/\\!!
Dread Knot
08-09-14, 09:16 PM
BINGO! And really no different than the the Tutsi and Hutu mess in Rwanda both are colonial-collapse power struggles. We managed to stay out of Rwanda we should do the same here and in Afghanistan
I do find it odd how war rages on and on in the heart of Africa year after year, and gets a collective yawn from the outside world. No oil, no Israel, no lobby, no religious dogmas at stake, I guess. :-?
Armistead
08-09-14, 10:11 PM
I do find it odd how war rages on and on in the heart of Africa year after year, and gets a collective yawn from the outside world. No oil, no Israel, no lobby, no religious dogmas at stake, I guess. :-?
No US interest involved....but bigger, the nations in the ME want and need us in the area for different reasons, but many of the religious players don't. But we can hardly compare conflicts with Africa with ISIS, that beyond conflict do want to destroy Israel and the US....
Man ISIS is brutal!! From some video's I have seen of their murderous ways, they make Zarqawi look like a choir boy!
CaptainMattJ.
08-10-14, 03:35 AM
Man ISIS is brutal!! From some video's I have seen of their murderous ways, they make Zarqawi look like a choir boy!
Of course they are, what would you expect from an unregulated religious militia? It doesnt matter how much time the U.S. spent in Iraq, nor would it have mattered what the timeline was for our withdrawal, things wouldve turned out exactly the same way because in truth Iraq is a country full of ethnic and religious groups who loathe the others' very existence. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink. You cant force a democracy to work on a country who's society is still in the dark ages. And so when you have a dirt poor country full of polar opposite ethnic groups, you get groups like ISIS, who slaughter and take whatever they want.
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 04:16 AM
Might be time for another Crusade maybe.
ISIS - spawn of the Devil.
Christians in Mosul were warned 7 days ago.
Pay the tax or die.
Children aren't spared.
The Islamic State: "There is nothing to give them but the sword".
One can flee, convert, pay a fine, or be put to death. There will be no coexistence.
Has the 'never again' changed into 'never mind'?
These are genocidal conditions.
Limited air strikes.
Very limited it seems.
What good will that do anyway.
ISIS has called for attacks on US interests world-wide now.
“We will humiliate them everywhere, God willing, and we will raise the flag of Allah in the White House.”
“I say to America that the Islamic Caliphate has been established,” Abu Mosa, a spokesman for the terror group known as the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS), in a video interview posted online Thursday. “Don’t be cowards and attack us with drones. Instead send your soldiers, the ones we humiliated in Iraq.”
Skybird
08-10-14, 05:35 AM
Welcome to the rule of the Koran. That is the Koran that is the fundament of Islam, btw. Often overlooked.
But I already hear in the West the voices again claiming that ISIS and what it does has nothing to do with Islam. And Islamic lobby groups lie about it anyway, of course.
I can understand that. Noibody likes to admit that one is following a murderous, underhanded, racist, totalitarian ideology, and mistakes it for peace, justice, freedom. Does not throw any good light on you, does it.
What can we do? Well, we could once again chose to ignore it. Maybe then it goes away. Or we can pray, maybe then the world becomes a better place all by itself. Ask Hermione for a good spell to pray.
I am for any of these two solutions! They both have the comfortable advantage that we must not need to question ourselves and must not change ourselves and can continue with our stuff as usual.
At least until a Salafist mob of primitives storms our police stations, like in Germany some days ago. Thank God we have de-escalation teams with mediators who are experts in talking violent emotions out of the world.
http://i.imgur.com/erPjmkO.gif
Welcome to the rule of the Koran. That is the Koran that is the fundament of Islam, btw. Often overlooked.
But I already hear in the West the voices again claiming that ISIS and what it does has nothing to do with Islam. And Islamic lobby groups lie about it anyway, of course.
I can understand that. Noibody likes to admit that one is following a murderous, underhanded, racist, totalitarian ideology, and mistakes it for peace, justice, freedom. Does not throw any good light on you, does it.
Do we have to have this boring conversation over again? Being wrong more than once about the same thing only makes you look silly.
Do we have to have this boring conversation over again? Being wrong more than once only makes you look silly.
I wouldn't bother if I were you Tarjak, we've already lost Tribesman, let's just leave them to their holy crusade of justice against the Muhammadian hordes.
http://makeameme.org/media/created/GOD-WILLS-IT.png
I wouldn't bother if I were you Tarjak, we've already lost Tribesman, let's just leave them to their holy crusade of justice against the Muhammadian hordes.
http://makeameme.org/media/created/GOD-WILLS-IT.png
Nah bollox to that. I'm on a crusade against intolerance and stupidity where ever I find it.:salute:
Skybird
08-10-14, 06:56 AM
Being wrong more than once about the same thing only makes you look silly.Then I can only advice you to stop being so. ;)
Then I can only advice you to stop being so. ;)
Show me where I'm wrong. I can show you where you are wrong but prefer not to bore everyone else.:03:
Nah bollox to that. I'm on a crusade against intolerance and stupidity where ever I find it.:salute:
You'll be fighting a losing battle here, mate. :nope:
You'll be fighting a losing battle here, mate. :nope:
http://deeptruths.com/letters/don-quixote/1.jpg
At least till I get bored with it. :03: Remember what I said in York. This is a form of sport and entertainment for me, never a matter of life and death. There's a lot of stupid in the world so I'll never be out of work.:sunny:
:haha: Well, best of luck to you, try not to get yourself brigged. :salute:
:haha: Well, best of luck to you, try not to get yourself brigged. :salute:
Always play the ball and not the man. Regardless of the lack of respect thrown back:yep:
Always play the ball and not the man. Regardless of the lack of respect thrown back:yep:
And this is why you chaps keep winning the Ashes... :03:
Armistead
08-10-14, 10:26 AM
I wouldn't bother if I were you Tarjak, we've already lost Tribesman, let's just leave them to their holy crusade of justice against the Muhammadian hordes.
http://makeameme.org/media/created/GOD-WILLS-IT.png
We need two more memes to go with this for effect, Jews and Muslims..
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 10:38 AM
Ilet's just leave them to their holy crusade of justice...
You bet. Time to take out the garbage.
And posting memes. Not as effective.
Welcome to Stormfront.org :rock:
Armistead
08-10-14, 11:07 AM
Numerous reports ISIS beheading and placing the heads on stakes and burning people alive....including women and children...
Skybird
08-10-14, 12:28 PM
After having written long essays on Islam and the Koran and the historical contexts for almost ten years, I have become tired of fighting against ignorrants that simply refuse to accept reality even when it jumps them into the eye. I have no kids myself, and no sisters/brothers, I must not fear for what will happen to my family in the future. So why not allowing all world to go to hell, if that is what people want? My concerns could calmly end with the end of my lifespan.
And slowly over time, I indeed come to that attitude. I have not started there, but this people have driven me deep into resignation.
I just take the short cut now and link for example to this, but there are so many other sources on the web.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
The loving, tolerant and peaceful, multicultural Islam is a modern myth, Islam never was like that except were it violated itself. Islam, ike any evil ideoloy, is not always successful in supressing all what is good and noble in man, and where Islamic totalitarian control failed, there was created an oppiortunity for firnedliness, tolernce, support. But that si not because of Muhammad, but despite Muhammad's written will! That is because Muhammad never was like that: multicultural, tolerant, peace-loving and -preaching, he never did that. The life of Muhammad was filled with violence, conquest, murder, suppression, plundering, blackmailing and intimidation - that all were authorized by his reputation and role and that still are a pillar or missionising according to the Koran. "Islam" - is a conqueror's ideology seeking monocultural dominance by the way of the sword and the torch, not a pacifist's wet dream of tolerance and multiculturalism. And Islamic history shows that.
But go ahead everybody, claim that Islam is harmless and peaceful and tolerant. It is as if I would claim this:
The Third Reich was just unfairly judged and misunderstood. The ideology of the Nazis in its written fundament is open for interpretation, and it dpeends on how you interpret it, and so there have been many different forms of fascism and Nazism, most of which are not different to Western humanism and the spirit of the enlightenment. Yes, there were some atrocities, but that was done by misled Nazis only, extremists that should not be called true Nazis but that we today know as Nazizis. But Nazizism has nothing to do with what Hitler meant with Nazism at all, Nazizi extremists only perverted it and gave it a brutal name by their radical excesses. They are a minority. Look at how many moderate Nazis lived in germany, and most of them never gassed a single Jew in their whole life! And after the war they even cried crocodiles tears over the KZs or denied to have known whnat was happening in their neighbourhood! You cannot hold them responsible for that, you have to admit that the ordinary Nazis belong to one of the most persecuted and brutally supressed victim communities known in world history. I knew Nazis in my life, and they were kind people who did not cause any trouble in society at all, two of my colleagues at work are Nazis, too. That Nazis discriminate Jews and do not want to live close door to door with black neighbours and do not want to have their daughters marrying black men, is just a media lie by paid PR agencies that run anti-Nazi campaigns (which already shows their unfair bias). One Nazi lives in the other flat on the same floor in my house, I know the guy and he is kind and friendly, he pays his taxes and obeys the laws. Do not allow those fanatics and extremists to give the Nazi ideology a bad name with their excesses and street parades, that just is not fair! Ignore the crime statistics that show that in the categories of discrimination and assaulting Jews and Blacks, Nazis are overrepresented, that is only underhanded propagandy by Naziphobes. "Mein Kampf" is a book that could and should not be taken literally, since history means nothing anyway, like any written work it is open for interpretation, it all depends on who interprets it. Modern Nazis have moved beyond hate on Jews, and bla and bla and more bla and blablabla.
Bla? :up:
Hilarious? Yes, very obviously it is hilarious. But however, it was the silent tolerance of the majority of Germans, the degree to which they allowed to be intimidated and not to resist, that gave an ideology of totalitarianism and barbaric supremacist belief the opportunity to unfold and bring horror and death and destruction over the world.
That most Germans back then were just fighting to survive the times they were born into, were maybe people of good hearts, and did not share Nazi views, does not change that their lack of resistance allowed the ideology of evil to grow, spread, and blossom. Their passivity made it strong and opened it the options it then abused. The difference to Muslims is that most of these Germans afterwards would not have insisted on nevertheless being seen as Nazis.
And no, Nazi ideology never was compatible with Western ideas of humanism, freedom, tolerance and the enlightenment. And so is Islam. Totalitarian and supremacist as they both are, they are about denying people freedom, and joy of life.
Just study the life of Muhammad. That alone should cure anyone about sentimental illusions about how peaceful, tolerant and multicultural Islam is. Heck, why do you think do I insist on calling Islam by its proper academic name: Mohammedanism? Its not the intention to cause offended feelings, I simply do not care whether it offends anyone or not. Follower of the Buddha are called Buddhists, followers of the Christ are called Christians, and followers of Mohammed and his copied and twisted ideas are called Mohammedans. Got a problem with that? Who cares!
Platapus
08-10-14, 12:44 PM
Seems like there is some confusion here.
When we said we wanted Iraq to be a democracy, we meant that Iraq would implement democracy in the same way we do.
When we said we wanted Iraq to keep its sovereignty, what we meant was Iraq can exercise their sovereignty when they implement plans we want them to implement.
When we said we want free and fair elections in Iraq, what we meant was that we wanted people elected who would like the US and do what we want in their country.
When we said that Iraq gets to decide whether our military stays in Iraq, we meant that we get to decide how long our military will stay in their country.
The United States apologizes for these misunderstandings, but you should really have known what we meant. :D
Need to clear something here.
ISIS is a very extreme Radical Conservative religious fractions or group.
NOT! every Muslim is radical or extreme. YES! they do exist and YES they have followers
It is also dangerous to embrace the whole Islam as the religion of peace which they seem not to be, not for the moment.
When I read some of your post and post on FB I get scared because it makes me remember Sweden during the middle and the end of the 30's.
In no other country than Germany and Sweden was Nazism so popular than in those years.
senior officials of the Nazi Party was repeatedly visit to Sweden where they gave speeches at some of the Swedish Annual Meeting parties etc.
Any negative publicity about the Nazi's would be met by a very aggressive response.
OK that was a little detour let return to the original discussion.
Markus
kraznyi_oktjabr
08-10-14, 02:04 PM
Need to clear something here.
ISIS is a very extreme Radical Conservative religious fractions or group.
NOT! every Muslim is radical or extreme. YES! they do exist and YES they have followers
It is also dangerous to embrace the whole Islam as the religion of peace which they seem not to be, not for the moment.What seems to be forgotten is that what is happening in Islamic world now has been done by Christians too - although perhaps in a bit more "formal" manner. One example is genocide of Cathars (Catharism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) in Wiki) by order of Pope Innocent III (ironic name isn't it?). Islam is not alone with extreme "solutions" into "issues" such as others disagreeing with you...
What seems to be forgotten is that what is happening in Islamic world now has been done by Christians too - although perhaps in a bit more "formal" manner. One example is genocide of Cathars (Catharism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) in Wiki) by order of Pope Innocent III (ironic name isn't it?). Islam is not alone with extreme "solutions" into "issues" such as others disagreeing with you...
You know, when reading about islam and the way the act and treat others it is like reading our own history of the Christianity.
would a court jester in the 12th or 13th century, making fun of Jesus, Christianity or the church this would lead to ....
Should a Muslim troubadour do the same today, make fun of his religion a.s.o it would lead to....
Markus
Schroeder
08-10-14, 02:22 PM
What seems to be forgotten is that what is happening in Islamic world now has been done by Christians too -
So? Whats your point? We've been idiots so let them be idiots too?
kraznyi_oktjabr
08-10-14, 02:43 PM
So? Whats your point? We've been idiots so let them be idiots too?I just reminded that violence justified with religion is not unique to Islam. It should not be tolerated - nor did I say so - but unfortunately I don't have feasible plan on how to fix this problem. Do you?
Schroeder
08-10-14, 02:47 PM
I just reminded that violence justified with religion is not unique to Islam. It should not be tolerated - nor did I say so - but unfortunately I don't have feasible plan on how to fix this problem. Do you?
Apart from shooting every IS guy on sight? No. I know it doesn't work properly but doing nothing doesn't work either so I rather see them being wiped out then them wiping out others.
Apart from shooting every IS guy on sight? No. I know it doesn't work properly but doing nothing doesn't work either so I rather see them being wiped out then them wiping out others.
The key factor is target identification. Militants don't wear uniforms.
The approach to solving his problem seems to vary from "aim twice, shoot once" to "EXTERMINATE ALL MUSLIMS!!!111oneoneone".
Aktungbby
08-10-14, 03:30 PM
What seems to be forgotten is that what is happening in Islamic world now has been done by Christians too - although perhaps in a bit more "formal" manner. One example is genocide of Cathars (Catharism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism) in Wiki) by order of Pope Innocent III (ironic name isn't it?). Islam is not alone with extreme "solutions" into "issues" such as others disagreeing with you...
And my personal fav!: ol' Vlad the Impaler http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Vlad_Tepes_002.jpg/250px-Vlad_Tepes_002.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vlad_Tepes_002.jpg)-now a multi-million moviehttp://www.aboutromania.com/VladTepesImpaleForest.jpg franchise(Dracula) certainly kept the evil Turks out of Wallachia! Estimated 80,000 victims....Nothin' goes outta style...:doh: Not to be outdone in this department: Sir (Captain) John Smith, mercenary to Radu Serban in Wallachia-dueled, killed and beheaded three Turks-(as per his coat of arms) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Makers_of_Virginia_History_-_John_Smith_Coat_of_Arms.jpg/220px-Makers_of_Virginia_History_-_John_Smith_Coat_of_Arms.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Makers_of_Virginia_History_-_John_Smith_Coat_of_Arms.jpg)before moving on to Jamestown and Pocahontas. His Latin motto:"to conquer is to live"?!. Without a little dismemberment...it's safe to say: there's no us!:D
Almost all religions are poisonous and dangerous.
Mainly because they rely on people to stop thinking for themselves.
Islam is no worse than any other version of the same poison.
Religious nutters are simply that. Skybird links yet again to his old chestnut of christian anti Islamic propaganda.
If actually read, right through, the so called holy books of all 3 judaic rooted religions have pretty much equal calls to violence as they do peace.
It's almost always the selective abuse of these texts that cause people to either claim right in their thinking or actions. Mostly when it relates to killing people of one or both of the other two.
Almost all religions are poisonous and dangerous.
Ideologies too. :yep:
Almost all religions are poisonous and dangerous.
Mainly because they rely on people to stop thinking for themselves.
Islam is no worse than any other version of the same poison.
Religious nutters are simply that. Skybird links yet again to his old chestnut of christian anti Islamic propaganda.
If actually read, right through, the so called holy books of all 3 judaic rooted religions have pretty much equal calls to violence as they do peace.
It's almost always the selective abuse of these texts that cause people to either claim right in their thinking or actions. Mostly when it relates to killing people of one or both of the other two.
Couldn't have said it better my self.
Edit
So far 15 young men from Denmark have died in the Syrian civil war, were they radical? No not from the beginning, they were born I Denmark, went to public school, had an education and spoke Danish fluently, how did they became radical? the Danish intelligent service(PET) think that they became brainwashed by some imam at some mosque.
Markus
Ideologies too. :yep:
Oh yes. Possibly more so.:yep:
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 07:20 PM
@ Oberon
so what's your point about stormfront.org.
You think that organising a crusade against a select group of trash
has something to with a white supremacist website?
Riiiight.
Do you need some images posted here to sway you to see that ISIS are the bad guys?
I can guarantee you that i'd get brigged for posting these images.
A picture exists of a Christian girl, beheaded. It's very clear what's happening here.
A systemic eradication of Christianity.
Genocide.
Nothing new of course.
But becoming more and more prominent.
I use the word crusade as a means to address the genocidal actions of this group.
They must be crushed.
ISIS has conquered all or most of the Christian towns in the north of Iraq and are now only 20 to 40 kilometers from Erbil (Irbil), the Kurdish capital in the north with 1.5 million people, mostly Sunni Muslims but also most of the Christians leaders in Iraq.
The pesh merga needs support. More than what Obama has promised so far.
Raqqa is a prime target.
There is a park in Mosul where they actually beheaded children and put their heads on a stick and have them in the park. More children are getting beheaded, mothers are getting raped and killed and fathers are being hung.
If you liken the crusade against this trash as the rounding up of jews and leaving a white supremacist web address as your answer, then i'll leave you to post more memes.
Because you know, memes are very funny and add so much to a discussion.
‘You understand the silence of your enemies but you don’t understand the silence of your friends."
Buddahaid
08-10-14, 08:09 PM
I don't think Christianity is an ethnic group, therefore it's not genocide, but I get you're point. The problem is comparing ISIS atrocities to Christian atrocities that occurred hundreds of years ago as if that makes it OK.
The problem is tarring all Muslims with the same brush as ISIS. ISIS = bad, Muslim = Not all bad, Christian = Not all bad, KKK=Bad. Simples?
Buddahaid
08-10-14, 09:17 PM
ISIS just needs a football team to rally behind and a good senseless TV show to watch after dinner followed by a good kip.
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 10:32 PM
The problem is tarring all Muslims with the same brush as ISIS. ISIS = bad, Muslim = Not all bad, Christian = Not all bad, KKK=Bad. Simples?
Well, maybe people including yourself are miss-interpreting my 'crusade' or war against radical islamists.
I'm sure you know the difference btw a radical islamist and a muslim.
You seem hell bent on insinuating that that is what i meant?
Or are you referring more to Skybird?
If so, then no problem.
No where have i alluded to or insinuated that all muslims are bad.
ISIS= RADICAL ISIS=EVIL ISIS=NOT LIKE ALL MUSLIMS.
Simples?
A war against radical islamists.
Do i think war is the answer?
Do the radical islamists stop because you know, we should all co-exist in a perfect world and pay our jizya tax.
ISIS has made it clear they are waging a war against anyone that does not conform to their way of life.
Brutally.
Let's re-iterate we are not talking or debating about all muslims here.
We are talking about a genocidal radical group which has no qualms about enforcing their way. Brutally.
Let's not put words in my mouth (or anyone elses) that thinks that this particular radical islamist group is trash and they need to be dealt with.
Decent law-abiding muslims who are happy to co=exist with minority groups and Christians and those that defend them can take a deep breath and continue to sip their tea and do absolutely nothing.
Radical islamists will not stop.
Their goal is simple.
Pretty simple really.
Buddahaid
08-10-14, 10:54 PM
You two seem to be arguing over agreeing. Reminds me of something I read about...
:hmm2:
Well, maybe people including yourself are miss-interpreting my 'crusade' or war against radical islamists.
And maybe I'm not. and your post is an over reaction.
I'm sure you know the difference btw a radical islamist and a muslim.
Correct
You seem hell bent on insinuating that that is what i meant?
No I'm not.
Or are you referring more to Skybird?
If so, then no problem.
So that's OK then.
No where have i alluded to or insinuated that all muslims are bad.
I don't recall stating that you did.
ISIS= RADICAL ISIS=EVIL ISIS=NOT LIKE ALL MUSLIMS.
Simples?
Yes it is that simple.
A war against radical islamists.
Do i think war is the answer?
I've no idea what you think other than what you post here.
Do the radical islamists stop because you know, we should all co-exist in a perfect world and pay our jizya tax.
I doub't they would because they are radical extremists. Those type rarely stop unless stopped.
ISIS has made it clear they are waging a war against anyone that does not conform to their way of life.
Brutally.
Pretty much.
Let's re-iterate we are not talking or debating about all muslims here.
We are talking about a genocidal radical group which has no qualms about enforcing their way. Brutally.
Some here were not. I agree that its important to make the distinction, instead of lumping everyone who follows the teachings of their selected prophet into the same bucket. (Does anyone else find it strange that we now call the symptoms described by prophets as paranoid delusional schizophrenia?)
Let's not put words in my mouth (or anyone elses) that thinks that this particular radical islamist group is trash and they need to be dealt with.
I don't believe that I've ever attempted that, but if I have it has not been intentional.
Decent law-abiding muslims who are happy to co=exist with minority groups and Christians and those that defend them can take a deep breath and continue to sip their tea and do absolutely nothing.
I'm not sure what this means, but OK, if that's what you think is going on then fine.
Radical islamists will not stop.
Unless stopped.
Their goal is simple.
I think it may be much more complex than you realise, but whatever.
Pretty simple really.
:sunny:
Feuer Frei!
08-10-14, 11:22 PM
It seems we agree on the bulk of it TarJak :salute:
This article from the Wall Street Journal has a good question in it. ISIS main base of operations (their headquarters actually)is in Syria. They have a large amount of military supplies there along with training camps for their fellow nut cases. He asks in this article why don't we strike that target (from the air) hard and tear the place up? Problem is, is that we would look like we are helping Assad!
Why does this have to be so complicated, screw Assad, and hit ISIS hard in Syria! Assad's military is on the ropes it seems, so the thought of it recapturing all it has lost in Syria is wishful thinking.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/islamic-state-thrives-from-its-syrian-base-1407715192
Feuer Frei!
08-11-14, 01:13 AM
@ eddie:
it will take more than bombs. The big O has admitted this as well.
A government air strike was carried out on suspected ISIS positions.
Unfortunately things didn't go according to plan.
At least 12 civilians died, according to an anti-regime monitoring group.
23 wounded.
Air strike locations were at Deir al-Zor and Ar-Rakkah (or Raqqa to us)
Not sure if anyone here is aware, but ISIS has 2 all-female units, 1 called Al-Khansaa and Umm al-Rayan.
ISIS sets some conditions for women who are looking to join:
Must be single and btw the ages of 18-25.
Each woman will receive a monthly salary of 25,000 Syrian liras, less than $200.
1 reason for setting these all-female units up was activists (male) who oppose the group are dressing in burkas like women to pass unharmed at checkpoints. Also established the brigades to raise awareness of religion among women, and to punish women who do not abide by the law
http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/al-shabaab_demonstration.afp_.gi_.jpg
Aktungbby
08-11-14, 01:53 AM
, but ISIS has 2 all-female units, 1 called Al-Khansaa and Umm al-Rayan.
ISIS sets some conditions for women who are looking to join:
Must be single and btw the ages of 18-25.
Each woman will receive a monthly salary of 25,000 Syrian liras, less than $200. 1 reason for setting these all-female units up was activists (male) who oppose the group are dressing in burkas like women to pass unharmed at checkpoints. Also established the brigades to raise awareness of religion among women, and to punish women who do not abide by the law
http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/al-shabaab_demonstration.afp_.gi_.jpg
http://33.media.tumblr.com/6bf73285a17344101b066d995337a837/tumblr_n3vtjzNLwA1sorl53o1_1280.png (http://iburqa.com/post/82407821620/arbeit-macht-frei-work-shall-set-you-free-sign):/\\!! May they attain a martyrs paradise and 72 whaaaa? ""Things are still not equal!:O: If male martyrs can expect to find 72 virgin maidens in paradise when they die, what rewards can female suicide bombers (http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/publication-search-results.cfm?search=true&criteria=zedalis&selRecords=10&searchIn=Body) expect? Their husbands. The Quran itself describes little about the specifics of the afterlife, but it does note that believers will find huris, or maidens "of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/055.qmt.html#055.056)." (Every believer can end up in heaven; martyrs just get there faster.) Respected commentator Al-Tirmidhi said in a hadith (http://www.uga.edu/islam/hadith.html) that every man will have six dozen huris in heaven, but very few commentators enumerated the rewards for women. Ninth-century scholar Al-Tabarani did argue that women will be reunited with their husbands in the next world, and those who had multiple husbands can pick the best one to be their eternal spouse. (Other commentators added that a woman who never married can marry any man she wants in paradise.)" Not a whole lotta gain there IMHO!:har: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/2010/03/honey_im_dead.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/2010/03/honey_im_dead.html)
Feuer Frei!
08-11-14, 03:49 AM
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/06/20140613_ISIS9.jpg
kraznyi_oktjabr
08-11-14, 05:58 AM
I would really like to crush ISIS and put them to taste their own medicine. However in my opinion that would require putting boots into ground instead of merely relying on airstrikes. Who wants to send their troops into this war? :arrgh!:
Anyone..? :huh:
Bummer. :wah:
Only somewhat palatable option (in my opinion) to archive this would be to use mercenaries err... private military companies (PMCs). Who wants to pay the bills..? :hmmm:
@ Oberon
so what's your point about stormfront.org.
You think that organising a crusade against a select group of trash
has something to with a white supremacist website?
Riiiight.
Do you need some images posted here to sway you to see that ISIS are the bad guys?
I can guarantee you that i'd get brigged for posting these images.
A picture exists of a Christian girl, beheaded. It's very clear what's happening here.
A systemic eradication of Christianity.
Genocide.
Nothing new of course.
But becoming more and more prominent.
I use the word crusade as a means to address the genocidal actions of this group.
They must be crushed.
ISIS has conquered all or most of the Christian towns in the north of Iraq and are now only 20 to 40 kilometers from Erbil (Irbil), the Kurdish capital in the north with 1.5 million people, mostly Sunni Muslims but also most of the Christians leaders in Iraq.
The pesh merga needs support. More than what Obama has promised so far.
Raqqa is a prime target.
There is a park in Mosul where they actually beheaded children and put their heads on a stick and have them in the park. More children are getting beheaded, mothers are getting raped and killed and fathers are being hung.
If you liken the crusade against this trash as the rounding up of jews and leaving a white supremacist web address as your answer, then i'll leave you to post more memes.
Because you know, memes are very funny and add so much to a discussion.
‘You understand the silence of your enemies but you don’t understand the silence of your friends."
The crusade against ISIS and a crusade against Islam are two seperate points, as Tarjak has already pointed out. I have said time and time again (to no avail) that not all Muslims are radicals and in fact it's a tiny minority who are shouting loud enough to seem like a majority, given that there are two billion Muslims in the world, if the whole lot were radical fanatics then we would certainly know about it.
But no, in return I get the usual Skybird rants and countless links to the infamous 'religionofpeace' website, so I've given up trying to make an arguement and just snipe from the sidelines with memes, it's a whole lot easier, to be honest it's either that or just leave Subsim before it turns into some sort of right-wing Islamophobic nut-house.
The rules state that:
Subsim allows for a wide range of opinions, politics, and attitudes but we do not accept members who are associated with hate groups. Examples include but are not limited to Neo-Nazi groups, Westboro Baptist Church types, racist supremacists, Klansmen, black militants, Islamic militants, Jewish conspiracists, anti-Semites, posting links to racist music, propaganda denying the Holocaust.
And yet it would seem that anti-Muslim hate and attitudes are perfectly fine, so what can you do?
I think we may have crossed wires a tad, I see now in your talks with Tarjak that you can understand the difference between a radical Muslim and a normal Muslim, so my stormfront quote is likely not aimed at you, however when you say "Time for another crusade maybe" one has to remember that the last one didn't exactly spare women and children and civilians, in fact it was a complete bloodbath on both sides, including those who really had little to actually do with the reasons behind the crusade.
Although one must remember that "Has the 'never again' changed into 'never mind'?" has been a case of 'Never mind' for a while now, when it comes to genocides in Soviet Union, in Africa, in the PRC, and countless other places where the US and Western powers have stood back and done nothing. So it wouldn't be the first time.
And don't worry about the pictures, I've seen them too, ISIS is a definite concern, but aside from sending ground forces en mass into Iraq which no American (or European for that matter, or Australian...or anyone from the failed debacle in Iraq) citizen will stand for, I don't see how airstrikes are going to make too much of a difference when the only effective forces fighting ISIS are the Kurds to the north.
Perhaps I jumped the gun a little in this discussion, I've been on this merry-go-round so many times with the likes of Skybird that I've almost developed a reflex instinct to the point that perhaps I expect a gross generalisation where there has been none, if that is the case I apologise, it's the perils of being a liberal in a strange land. :haha: :03:
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/06/20140613_ISIS9.jpg
As strange as it seems to say this, Iraqs only hope may lie with Iran, and the US/NATO is going to have to realise that and give Iran and hand to get into Iraq and smash ISIS.
Feuer Frei!
08-11-14, 06:59 AM
*snip*
All good. It's tough to gauge sometimes what is directed at oneself.
And what is directed at another.
Online debating unfortunately doesn't have the luxury of eye contact and body language and facial expressions, along with voice.
Feuer Frei!
08-11-14, 07:13 AM
So, they are not ISIS anymore. Just IS.
And some verses hand-picked by IS from the Quran, which is applied to the Kafirs:
http://s16.postimg.org/66x111o5x/Bu_C2ibr_CAAE89_JL.jpg
http://s30.postimg.org/8zekcuk29/Buhggav_CAAAHk_MT.jpg
Lovely stuff that. :nope:
Dread Knot
08-11-14, 08:03 AM
As strange as it seems to say this, Iraqs only hope may lie with Iran, and the US/NATO is going to have to realise that and give Iran and hand to get into Iraq and smash ISIS.
I think it's only a matter of time before Iran jumps in with tacit US approval. Which goes to show how goofy-looking this situation is when the US and Iran are basically getting in bed over this. But then we made common cause with the Soviet Union back in WW2, although the circumstances were different. If we don't want to put large numbers on the ground, somebody has to. The Shias in the south are too busy fighting over who gets to run rump Iraq.
Long term, it's crazier. We probably need Iran to rebuild Assad, so he can wipe out Isis in his own borders as well.
In a way, Iran is in a good position to recreate western Persia if it plays its diplomatic cards right. :hmmm:
Armistead
08-11-14, 12:32 PM
Let's see, Putin leads Russia, a nation with at least 40% Orthodox Christians, and an ally of the Syrian regime, which is religiously tolerant. The U.S. leads an international effort to punish Putin and Russia via sanctions and supports an anti-Russian Ukrainian regime which the U.S. helped bring to power. Meanwhile, the U.S. has, and continues to, directly and through proxies, support Muslims, many militants among them, trying to overthrow the Syrian regime, thereby enabling the rise of ISIS to a virtual nation-state and their slaughtering of Christians and others.
It seems our politicians have no understanding of the region, culture or the numerous motivations there. What's sad is, the experts continue to predict each vacuum, each crisis, but the politicians keep ignoring them. Maybe the long plan is to keep the region in turmoil at each other, creating constant vacuums. You have to ask yourself why the experts are constantly ignored.
Skybird
08-12-14, 03:04 PM
When G.W. Bush attacked Iraq, there were
no weapons of mass destruction.
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/jetzt_schon2_ts/10315094/2-format35.jpg
Now there are
source:
Der Tagesspiegel
Ah, ah, but can they be deployed within 45 minutes? :har:
You have to laugh, because if you don't you'll cry, and cry a lot. :/\\!!
Here's more about ISIS(or whatever they call them self now) only a very few Muslim have openly made their point official on the danish Facebook or in public commentating in different newspaper.
From most of them we hear nothing but silence.
Could it be that they are afraid to speak openly? Or
I think it is because of just that, I have throughout the years heard and read what has happen to Muslim that have open their mouth and criticized their religion.
Today they live under protection.
I have also read about person in Europe who openly have supported ISIS.
so who's supporting ISIS in the silent and who's hate them but are afraid of criticizing them official
Markus
Throughout the last few month I have heard commentators on CNN, BBC World News and on our Danish and Swedish news channel.
I get the feeling that the crisis in Iraq may have something to do with the allied politics or the lack of it.
It seem like they rushed right in and left without thinking about the political future for Iraqi people.
Some commentators(Swedish if I remember correctly) mentioned the leader of Iraq and said he was nothing more than USA'a marionette.
I hope I'm wrong I wish I'm wrong.
Markus
I've not read this thread, except for the OP.
Are you still verklempt about this matter?
It sounds to me that whatever the truth of the matter is: people in the EU need to begin to think about winter.
From where does the majority of fuel originate in the EU?
I'm waiting for the shoe dropping WRT to shuttling cargo / passengers to the ISS. When that happen, and the EU in its entirety is freezing to death, you'll see the wonder squatting in the White Hut spring into action.
http://www.conservativecrusader.com/articles/b-hussein-obama-i-will-stand-with-the-muslims
:har:
The idiot was awarded a Nobel Prize two weeks post uttering inauguration vows.
The EU + British Comonwealth + liberal collectivists globally supported the, so then, support your - on your own dime - now as Russia deigns to manifest its objectives.
http://media.townhall.com/townhall/reu/ha/2014/246/72660364-bf0f-4017-b5dd-5157c3f02258.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/tsiya/Small%20Shots%20for%20Net/CinC_zps5cd8eb72.jpg
Zombie time is it?
http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/World-War-Z-movie-with-Brad-Pitt1.jpg
Dread Knot
09-05-14, 09:47 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/tsiya/Small%20Shots%20for%20Net/CinC_zps5cd8eb72.jpg
Wow. Obama picked up a cool Druid's hat at the Stonehenge Gift Shop. :up:
English Heritage is always selling hip stuff. :cool:
Buddahaid
09-05-14, 11:55 PM
I've not read this thread, except for the OP.
Are you still verklempt about this matter?
It sounds to me that whatever the truth of the matter is: people in the EU need to begin to think about winter.
From where does the majority of fuel originate in the EU?
I'm waiting for the shoe dropping WRT to shuttling cargo / passengers to the ISS. When that happen, and the EU in its entirety is freezing to death, you'll see the wonder squatting in the White Hut spring into action.
http://www.conservativecrusader.com/articles/b-hussein-obama-i-will-stand-with-the-muslims
:har:
The idiot was awarded a Nobel Prize two weeks post uttering inauguration vows.
The EU + British Comonwealth + liberal collectivists globally supported the, so then, support your - on your own dime - now as Russia deigns to manifest its objectives.
http://media.townhall.com/townhall/reu/ha/2014/246/72660364-bf0f-4017-b5dd-5157c3f02258.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/tsiya/Small%20Shots%20for%20Net/CinC_zps5cd8eb72.jpg
So do you have an opinion?
Tribesman
09-06-14, 01:22 AM
I do like the link.
Thanks for the laugh Wxman:haha:
So do you have an opinion?
I'd say that was all he had. :haha:
HunterICX
09-06-14, 05:25 AM
I'd say that was all he had. :haha:
O dear :rotfl2:
I'm surpised you could gather that much I'm still figuring out what the devil I just red.
Wolferz
09-06-14, 06:10 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what our exact interests are in that region.:06:
I say; "Let them kill one another and consolidate into a nation state gathered under one banner. Then turn Israel loose on them."
:shucks:
Jimbuna
09-06-14, 06:41 AM
I'd say that was all he had. :haha:
O dear :rotfl2:
I'm surpised you could gather that much I'm still figuring out what the devil I just red.
Certainly nothing of real value or interest....edited.
Armistead
09-06-14, 07:25 AM
I'm still trying to figure out what our exact interests are in that region.:06:
I say; "Let them kill one another and consolidate into a nation state gathered under one banner. Then turn Israel loose on them."
:shucks:
It's why I hate war politics. It's like we give em a years notice we're coming for them.
It's why I hate war politics. It's like we give em a years notice we're coming for them.
Well, surprise attacks tend to leave a bad taste in the enemies mouth:
http://indianavamortgages.com/wp-content/upLoads/Pearl-Harbor.jpg
Wolferz
09-06-14, 10:51 AM
Well, surprise attacks tend to leave a bad taste in the enemies mouth:
http://indianavamortgages.com/wp-content/upLoads/Pearl-Harbor.jpg
After plenty of mouthwash and a large can of whoopass, it's not as bad as you would think.:rock:
Someone didn't think through what they just posted did they? ;)
Interesting article about some fallacies relating to Australian potential military involvement in Iraq: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-02/brown-the-five-fallacies-of-our-thinking-on-iraq/5713044
The Author raises some interesting questions which are also pertinent for the other coalition members. How does this get sorted without a strategy for how it will operate and also how to deal with the situation in Syria.
And according to this report today, some discussions are underway, but no official request for assistance has been made yet. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/09/abbott-talks-to-obama-but-gets-no-specific-request-for-extra-military-help-in-iraq
Skybird
09-11-14, 11:16 AM
A message to president Obama by a former Muslim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxzOVSMUrGM
-----
I add this essay, for the one essay I originally wanted to post (LINK in GERMAN (http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132118191/Die-Moerder-des-IS-nehmen-Mohammed-eben-woertlich.html?config=print)), I cannot find in its English original version, I found it translated to German in a newspaper today. Maybe better luck later with the English original.
First originally posted in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung:
The Barbarism of the Jihadists: In the Name of the Sword
20 August 2014
Argumentation is pointless: The jihadists of the “Islamic State” eliminate all limitations which we have internalised in the course of the civilisational process. Combat allows them to give in completely to their instincts.
Andrei Tarkovsky’s “Andrei Rublev” is among the masterpieces of cinema. It tells the true life story of an inspired icon painter and priest. The film is set against the background of 15th century Russia. In one scene, Tartars raid the city of Vladimir. They slaughter whomever crosses their path: they mutilate, rape, steal. Tarkovsky shows masterfully the feeling with which these Asiatic hordes apply their procedure — they kill with great abandon.
In the close-ups of the murderers, we look in horror at the ardent excitement in their faces. These men, having discarded all civilising inhibitions, can yield to the most primitive of their urges and impulses. They have achieved the ultimate liberation. Because they are completely unfeeling and because they reduce other men to objects of lust and subjugation, they have reached the zenith of their sexual potency and are able to act quite openly like beasts.
The current television images and the jihad videos on YouTube remind me of this scene, one of the most arresting in the history of cinema. If we ask ourselves how the Bedouin of the Arabian Peninsula in the seventh century or the Mongols in the thirteenth century conquered and plundered the world — the “Islamic state” (IS) shows us how they proceeded. They were driven by the wild desire to destroy and conquer everything which fell to their inclination.
The liberating Jihad
The regular armies of modern times must discipline the destructive energies of young men and direct them into organised paths. The provisions of the laws of war are to be observed; one must not engage in brutal behaviour unnecessarily, and commanders must be aware of the proportionality of means and avoid collateral damage. None of these things are of any concern to the fighters of the “Islamic State”. By committing themselves to jihad, they throw off the bonds of civilized behaviour. We facing the gratified visage of naked savagery.
Whoever is possessed by jihad has exceptional power. In an orgiastic fever he can rape, kill and plunder. Owing to the brainwashing which he encountered, he knows that this course of action is legitimised by his religion. And when he dies, he will go straight to heaven, where seventy-two virgins are waiting to attend upon him for all eternity. The IS fighters are an incarnation of everything that was channelled [kanalisiert] in the course of becoming civilised; namely, the sexual and destructive energies of young men. Jihad, as we have come to see, can turn this process around, and the energies and urges which young men must suppress in a civilised society are given a new focus.
In the Western world of today every form of aggression is directly sanctioned as early as kindergarten. Our sons are constrained to grow up as placid girls and are allowed to act out their (sexual) energy only in sport and with aggressive computer games, during which they kill dozens of virtual enemies day after day. Jihad liberates young men from these restrictions, which is precisely why it is so appealing to young men even in the West.
No Respect for the Dignity of Others
Instead of sitting in front of the screen, they can live out their fantasies in real life, in real time, in a real theatre of war and under the banner of a divine mandate. Instead of sublimating the untrammelled reign of everything that is brutish — of everything that permits them to conquer, to kill, to destroy and to rape — jihad makes it possible for the believer to abandon himself completely to his ecstasy. The so-called unbeliever is only an object with which the jihadist can do as he pleases according to his whim.
There is no debating with jihadists, and that is why they frighten us. They speak of their divine mandate — the establishment of a worldwide caliphate — but their means go far beyond this objective. Their practise denies the humanity of the other and allows the ultimate victory of the perpetrator over the victim, of the believer over the unbeliever, of man over woman, of the lord over his slaves. The victim is deprived of all his rights: — he can only hope for mercy, a gesture from the all-powerful victor which is calculated to humiliate. Such mercy can be given in certain cases, when the victim converts to Islam; which is tantamount to a psychic rape.
Nowadays, these hordes appear not on horses, but in all-terrain vehicles and with grenade launchers, but the earth still trembles when they come. They hoist black flags and love death more than life; but only after they have tasted the flesh of enslaved women. They blow up statues, churches, everything that falls into their hands: the dignity of the other is not respected.
Moral Imperatives do not Apply
Their motives elude our understanding. Young men with solid future prospects join the jihadists. They abjure education and marriage in favour of fighting a war in which the beheading of the victim, his ultimate humiliation, becomes an initiation ritual. Young men who wield a sword no longer entertain any doubts, know no pity, no hesitation, and in so doing they free themselves from their last inhibitions. Dozens of jihadist videos provide evidence for this brutal Stone Age ritual.
The bystanders who witness this decisive moment — which breaks through all limitations — are nervous, because the killer is not always secure, and perhaps his hand still trembles. They cry “Allahu Akhbar” to strengthen him in throwing overboard, once and for all, the last remaining doubt that may still be in him. He guides the knife and makes of the prisoner a butchered animal. Henceforth nothing binds him any longer to a moral world. Now he can kill and find satisfaction in it, and his companions respect him. He has burst the bonds of civilization.
The English philosopher, writer and cultural critic George Steiner once remarked that the Jews are hated because they invented conscience and the ideal of moral and ethical wholeness [Vervollkommnung]. Man hates them for it, because he keeps trying to fulfil these moral imperatives, but he continually fails. He fails, because no one can fulfil these high moral commandments [Geboten]. The Islamic Jihad circumvents this existential problem.
The Ultimate Fighter
Jihad allows the believers to switch off the voice of reason and conscience. They can henceforth practise raw sexual violence. The voice of the horde is the voice of orgiastic lust. These hordes slaughter men and boys and turn girls and women into sex slaves. Once again man is as defenceless as he was for the tens of thousands of years before we abolished human sacrifice and began the slow and painful process of overcoming our brutal nature.
Jihad has so much power because it can disconnect the hard-won limits which we have internalised during the process of becoming civilised. Jihad brings to the world the ultimate fighter who no longer admits of any limitations. These people require no political or religious programme. They are not driven by any kind of social or economic disadvantage. Their absurd notion of a world-spanning Caliphate is just as much of a pretext as all the other senseless ideas which demand the killing of unbelievers so that a paradise of pure believers can arise. No, it is only about the wish to rape and destroy. Our culture has a name for that: evil.
by Leon de Winter
Translation: Rembrandt Clancy
Tribesman
09-11-14, 11:38 AM
A message to president Obama by a former Muslim.
That is funny.:har:
De Winter is quite right. For these young men and a few women, this is plain and simple a power trip of the ultimate kind.
Imagine a world where you could do whatever you want with no consequences. That is the headspace these so called jihadists are living in.
They use religion as a smokescreen for their evil behaviour.
Skybird
09-11-14, 06:05 PM
Hear the guy in the video. He was a radical Muslim, then turned for Christianity, studied Islam and runs an academic career on it, and his father is an Imam in Marocco. Does he know Islam a bit or not? Reminds a bit of the biography of that German-Egyptian I repeatedly mentioned, Hamed Abdel-Samad. And strnagely, both men say exactly the same things about Islams. So do so many other apostates and people who fleed from Islam, taking great risks for that.
The bloodbathing by IS, its a bit more than just an ego trip. It is motivated by, or better: demanded by the ideology of the Koran, because it was already done like that and was demanded and ordered by Muhammad. Already back then it was done like this.
That's what I am preaching since years. In that German essay that so far I found no English translation for (or the english original), de Winters correctly points out that the silence of the vast majority of the Muhameddan world in the the face of Islamic terror and crimes of barbary, also comes form the fact that many know that these barbarians - indeed just carry out what the Koran demands of them, and carry out Muhammad'S commands, while them moderates and peaceful ones at the same time know that they do not and thus already have violated these comandements, needing to fear the - by Islamic standards - rightful punishment by these barbarians. And thus these moderates (indeed they are not moderates but apostates) by the Koran's ruling are legitmately punished as well.
There is no "Islamism". That is a tactically arranged deception maneuver. There is only Islam,. and those Muslims following it, and those who follow it not. The latter either accept correction - or receive death punishment. That too is in the Koran and Hadith. Prisoners? Allah has no profit from prisoners, the video quotes. Kill them all if they do not submit.
But this incompetent, empty-headed, big-mouthed, debt-raising idiot in the White House, this imposter, this carricature of a responsible leader, tells the world that IS has nothing to do with Islam. Before, Bush told his people that Islam had nothing to do with 9/11. And with thousands of acts of terror and attacks carried out because of Islam and in the name of Islam, we get fed this blatant, underhanded lie: that Islam has nothing to do with.
Sometimes the stupidity of fools boils a murderous cold rage in me. And it is not just because of Obama. The whole West seems to suffer from collective Stockholm syndrome.
:dead:
I normally wouldn't mind for Westerners wanting to destroy themselves only. Unfortunately they pull the rest of the world down with them as well. That is where my switches spring to the "on" position.
All these wonderful Islam-understanders can be countered by one single qurestion already: when checking his distory and biograpohy, his life: what did Muhammad do and say? Did he preach and practice peace, tolerance, and coexistence - or attack, conquest, submission, war, robbery, mass murder, slavery? Did his words and deed compare to that of prince Siddharta or those words of that carpenter in Galilea - or to that of Stalin, Genghis Khan or Tamerlan?
Who has ears, shall hear, and who has eyes shall see. And who has a brain, shall have the decency to finally use it, will he...
Skybird
09-11-14, 06:32 PM
Okay, I tried it with Google Website Translation. Acually it seems to work better than just some years ago.
The murderer of IS take Mohammed just literally
Whenever the name of Islam atrocities are committed, we hear that the terrorists only pervert a peaceful religion. They cite the example of Mohammed.
Leon de Winter
http://img.welt.de/img/kommentare/crop132118189/6369735475-ci3x2l-w540/Mohammed-Buchminiatur-1436-2-.jpg (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132118189/Mohammed-Buchminiatur-1436-2.html&usg=ALkJrhin2Xwe48eg3_NBJQ1i7j8ZhL4uMw)
Mohammed in a book miniature of 1436, the founder of Islam (570-632) riding on the
holy Buraq mare by the earthly paradise Photo: picture-alliance / akg-images
Slowly we are drawn into a discussion that we wanted to avoid. It is a discussion that had buried the Western world since the Enlightenment actually more or less. Now she's back with full force. The industrial revolution gave us the tools to be masters of our own destiny, and despite the worst relapses into barbarism during the 20th century, we progressed to individualization, secularization, prosperity.
On the way we have lost the idea that we must be vigilant and determined, if we want to preserve and maintain the values and beliefs that have brought us forward. This loss meant perhaps the greatest happiness, because it led to the idea that we have no more enemies. We could afford to be indecisive.
But we went even further. Ashamed of the massacres of the 20th century, we began to doubt the ideas of the Enlightenment that had brought us this far - this existential self-doubt became almost a new lifestyle for us, the enlightened, godless Europeans. Liberated and unencumbered by the history we realized that we may lead a contented life as a cultural and moral relativizers, we drove in a moral vacuum.
You want to behead all
But now we are confronted with the limits of this self-doubt. Suddenly we are back on a moral and ethical grounds, we wanted to avoid. Suddenly we come face to face with ideas and values, which we thought they were lost in the mists of history. Now we need to talk about the limits of tolerance and freedom of speech - was not that old stuff away from times? We have also gone in an unpleasant discussion about religion. Is this really 2014?
Who wants to talk about the essence of the Sacred a religious civilization? Before that, we still run all of them. And rightly so. It reminds us of xenophobia and cultural imperialism, to the evil that has soaked the past century in the blood. We do not want to say goodbye to the seductive idea simply that tolerant cultural relativism knows no bounds.
With this idea of cultural relativism we have lived up to the September 11, 2001. Since we know that it is an extremely unpleasant subject, but we were able to displace this insight. Our responsible leaders kept repeating that Islam - I apologize that I'm so rude, but that's just the theme around which we make a bow - is a religion of peace. Every time they said the non-Islamic world that Islamic terrorists are Muslim in name only. That the terrorists a perversion of a peaceful religion are.
For a while it worked. But the beheadings which we are living in Syria and Iraq, make it increasingly difficult to suppress some unpleasant forebodings about this great Abrahamic religion called Islam. These shocking beheadings mark a turning point in the perception of this impressive tradition. Yes, impressive - but also confusing.
http://img.welt.de/img/kommentare/crop131646579/2789733871-ci3x2l-w540/A-member-loyal-to-the-ISIL-waves-an-ISIL-flag-in-Raqqa.jpg (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article131646579/A-member-loyal-to-the-ISIL-waves-an-ISIL-flag-in-Raqqa.html&usg=ALkJrhiE7vq2_zoIRVBG1I3V5xNCWBGvCA)
An IS-fighters in Iraq Photo: REUTERS
The beheadings force us to evaluate the central figure of Islam, explain the Prophet Muhammad, because the murderers, they acted in Muhammad's senses. You also want to behead us all if we do not bow to them. What a plan! Had the Prophet Mohammed against this plan made - or he probably would have welcomed him?
Who wants to be already Islamophobic?
Like Christianity, Islam has also a main character next to God. But Mohammed is not a hippie figure like Jesus. Mohammed is a chief, a man who uses extreme violence such as mass murder to achieve his goals. An objective reading of the Koran leaves the impression that the peace of Islam is a peace of submission - which is the literal translation of the word Islam - and that Islam sees itself not only as a religion but also as an ideological program, with the companies to be reorganized.
Islam is much more than a personal form of meditation. He wants to reorder the world according to the values of a warlord from the seventh century. The Quran leaves no doubt. But it is wise for an enlightened post-modernists, to publish such conclusions? Who wants to be called a racist or Islamophobic already? Who wants to be pushed into a corner by neo-Nazis and cultural supremacists?
In Europe cultural relativism all religions are equal. We talk one time and again that the Abrahamic religions are inherently peaceful. The option to make distinctions between Christianity, Judaism and Islam must be suppressed because the ultimate consequence of a distinction means the A-word. Let me write out: Auschwitz. So we continue to say: Islam is a religion of peace, and Islamic terrorists are not Muslims, but barbaric murderer. This is not correct, but it is safer thing to say.
This is the irony of the limits of tolerance: We are not tolerant towards those who want to analyze and criticize the basic ideas of Islam. Whoever says that Islam came to a brilliant but bizarre character around who wanted to kill anyone who was not of his opinion, which is brought by the vast majority of commentators and politicians to silence.
Billion Muslims do not get upset
And yet the murderers of the Islamic State itself, the true heirs of the Prophet Mohammed claim to be - and if you (the many stories of Muhammad's life) has read the Koran and the Hadith, it falls a really hard to disagree with them in it. But better to keep quiet in the face of unpleasant conclusions.
It is an undisputed fact that most of the world's Muslims are peaceful, while a tiny minority of a few thousand young people traveling to Syria to queue up in the fighting force of an angry and obsessive religious cult that attempts by a holy war called jihad in the world to impose the lifestyle of Arabia in the seventh century.
And the world's 1.3 billion Muslims to stay home. You remain confused, doubtful, silent - they do not take to the streets to protest against the Islamic murderers of IS. You stay at home, because they know that this murderer take the rules of the Prophet literally - and not they themselves. The application of pure Islam can lead to mass murder - this is unacceptable thoughts can not live the majority of Muslims.
Could it be that the perfect religion, they added up to the smallest veins of her body against itself can bring so much cruelty? No, they say, these murderers can not be a Muslim. And instead of analyzing and adapting their religion critically, make many of them Jews responsible for the IS - claiming thousands of online news, the IS was a Zionist plot.
The violent character of Muhammad
The sacred books of monotheism to read as literary texts is an insightful pastime. There are serious doubts about the historicity of the early Hebrew conquest, as described in the Jewish Torah, but as it was written, it was without doubt to massacre. The reform of Judaism by rabbis after the destruction of the Second Temple created a new religion beyond the literal meaning of the stories of conquests in the name of a jealous God.
The story is also full of massacres in the name of Christ - they were always separated from the message of the meek Jesus, as he is described in the works of his apostles. But what is there to discuss about the nature of fascinating, but violent character of Muhammad?
Radical followers of the message of Muhammad can not be tolerant. To be precise postmodern to say tolerant by our Western definition. Intolerance against apostasy, adultery, homosexuality, polytheism, atheism is without doubt essential for Islam, even if most Muslims are not violent towards unbelievers or homosexuals. Nevertheless, one can not deny the institutional intolerance.
How can we protect our tolerance for the intolerance of Islamic extremists? Is a Western society still tolerant - which is just as essential to us as the intolerance of radical Muslims - if we limit the tolerance of religious lunatics?
Extremists hate freedom
May we ever the followers of a character who is a prophet of the faithful, "religious deception" call? Because of the cruel acts of extremists who believe in an intolerant God, whose message was brought by an angel a "perfect" human beings, we are back to archaic discussions reached about the value and the historicity of religion and the limits of tolerance.
Our shamed civilization does not want to deal with such issues. Auschwitz - we hear it all the time in our mind. But the extremists dream of many Auschwitz to create '. Most of them deny the Holocaust, but at the same time openly articulate their dream to organize a.
http://img.welt.de/img/deutschland/crop132063907/5989739555-ci3x2l-w540/Salafisten-demonstrieren-in-Berlin.jpg (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article132063907/Salafisten-demonstrieren-in-Berlin.html&usg=ALkJrhhriycPozQeJbPamCr808bgLx7aNQ)
Salafist demonstration in Berlin: This man waves a flag and promotes a radical
group Photo: picture-alliance / Wolfram Stein
At a demonstration in London in 2006 against the Danish cartoons of Mohammed, a participant wore a sign on which he had written: "To hell with freedom!" The extremists do not need them, but we already. They hate freedom of speech. They force us to return to pointless discussions about the limits of postmodern tolerance of sacred texts and the nature of religion. Due to similar discussions Europe has been burning for centuries. This is the dilemma in which we find ourselves today.
So, who dares to say: "Open Western societies will explain ideological and religious concepts such as jihad and Sharia law to be illegal, because they are incompatible with our concepts of universal human rights"? Can we meet in this way the great civilization of Islam? Or will we end up in the dustbin of history because our idea of a limitless tolerance will be destroyed by intolerant religious extremists? Or is there a middle ground?
Who wants to lead such a discussion? I do not. I like my peace. And I'm sure your well.
Translated from English by Rainer Haubrich
http://img.welt.de/img/kommentare/crop132118190/2589735266-ci3x2l-w540/M-Lengemann.jpg (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=de&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132118190/M-Lengemann.html&usg=ALkJrhitzCbWN_XN30KfsH2Se37-6BdSaA)
The author Leon de Winter is one of the best known Dutch writers
---
The red paint is by me.
The German text was published in Die Welt on September 11th:
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132118191/Die-Moerder-des-IS-nehmen-Mohammed-eben-woertlich.html
Tribesman
09-12-14, 12:07 AM
Hear the guy in the video.
Yes it was funny.
I would ask why you put up two peoples views which contradict each other, but it is par for the course for you to hold conflicting views and claim both are correct.
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