SH4 - How smart is AI?

[alexander22]

Hello Subsim! I went back to play some more Silent Hunter 4 after a year of pause, I installed the Trigger Maru overhaul 2.5 (Latest) and i got stuck at Freemantle, because BdU sent me on a photo recon that went bad. I got flooded, so i sank about 25ft or so, i could do nothing but sit there with 4x time compression and stare at something else while i waited for the repairs to go trough. (Tired Crew on Battlestations) I watched the AI DD pass over me several times and saw that they had pretty innacurate with the depth charges, and not very smart about how they are goona lay them to hit me correctly and hardest. I could not move since i had over 60% damage yet 25'ish% hull, then after awhile, about morning in-game i think it was around 9-10, he stopped, just sat there, forever. My hydro and Sonar were kaput so i had to go external (Yeah, I know, im not doing full realism), but asoon as i repaired them from full damage (1) to under like 9.99% or something the DD started moving, I had my crew on Silent Running, but he knew where i were. I also had the Alberich, tough not sure if it helps. (I pretty much had no eyes or ears until that point)

So my question is, how do the AI know where I am like that, was it normal that he maybe just waited a certain time, or when my Hydro/Sonar kicked in he detected me? Does the Alberich even help? Both SH3/5 i think had somewhere it wasent really possible, i even think the standard vanilla SH4 had it, I am doing UBM btw.


Would appriciate any answers! :)

[Armistead]

The AI is controlled by numerous factors, can be as easy or hard as you want it. You basically have many base values, then those are reduced or multiplied by crew ratings from poor to elite. TMO uses a lot of veteran ratings for escorts as the war progresses, seems highest ratings in 43. So you can often run into competent rated escorts that don't seem that hard, then be smack by a veteran crew.

The other issue is escort and the amount and placement of charge racks, just wait until you run into some mean escorts with Y and K guns and double rolloffs...

It's hard coded as far as what factors cause an escort to lay back, but they often will to hunt or hold you down. There does seem to be a limit. There are values that decide how long escorts will hunt you after they lose contact, but not sure this effects the loner that hangs back

[merc4ulfate]

... along with what aristead said in real life it was a practice to sit on the surface all quite and listen. If the submarine went silent then the DD would go silent for a time to just sit and listen.

A DD can stay there for a long time but the submarine must surface for air. So it can became a waiting game. If you try to move will he hear you? If you simply go to periscope depth will he hear the the change of ballast and come after you before you can even line up a shot at him?

In the game I have had to do this plenty of times. If it was anywhere from 2400 to 0300 I'll put everyone at battlestations, man the deck gun and go ahead flank away from the escort and surface. The hope is that it will be to dark for him to see me on the surface. He will hear me underwater but then lose contact. Meanwhile I manually man the deck gun and start popping holes in him in the hopes of slowing him down or get lucky and sink him if he can not find me in the dark.

Manually using the gun is more accurate than having your crew do it. They depend on senor settings in the game. Many times you can actually see farther than the sensor setting. so while they may stop firing you can still see just enough to keep firing manually.

Saved my boat more than once doing it this way.

[THEBERBSTER]

If you look a at the excellent TMO instructional PDF that comes with the mod it will answer, and also show you how you are detected and what your options are if any.

There is also a lighter version of TMO available with reduced AI if you are interested.

There is a text document with the mod and also on the Subsim post that explains what the changes are.

Download Link to SH4 TMOwtw 2.5 (A Lighter Version Of The Original TMO) < Subsim post

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194223 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=194223)

[alexander22]

Many thanks guys! I read somewhere about the search and AI values, cant remember them, but it was some good minutes they either search or lose contact! I tough they had some kind of wallhack and a timer to block them from using it. Well I dont know much about AI, they seem rather bad nowadays as i can notice in some of the newer games. Where they are not supposed to see you, yet they do, virtually. I actually tried to cheat the time compression so my repairs could go trough but it dident really help, maybe i had to start a new game/patrol? Either way, I did get out, this answers my question(s) pretty nicely. Sometimes I think the Depth Charge damage is strange, it can hit close to me, yet i get lower than 20% damage and maybe 1-10% hull damage, I would have tough it caused atleast 50% damage and maybe 20% hull damage.

The more lighter TMO seems nice, yet I don't want too dumb AI. (If you know what I mean) I will try it out!

(The link seems to be dead, it seems to exist, but i get 403 Forbidden when it reaches 0 seconds or if i press ''Direct Download''!)

[Armistead]

Just keep playing and researching links on evasion, AI, repair, etc... TMO's AI can be defeated if you use decent tactics 90% of the time. Many go to a much harder AI after they play TMO awhile.

Just remember when you evade, get deep and when the charges are launched, hit flank, they will fall behind you the majority of the time. Once the run is over, got back to 2 knots. Main thing is to watch out for certain escorts, some are mean and can dump charges on you that sounds like machine gun fire going off..

[TorpX]

My hydro and Sonar were kaput so i had to go external (Yeah, I know, im not doing full realism), but asoon as i repaired them from full damage (1) to under like 9.99% or something the DD started moving, I had my crew on Silent Running, but he knew where i were.

If you are repairing damage, you are not silent. Same with loading torps, or moving above 2 kn.

[THEBERBSTER]

Just checked the link from my post and works ok.

This link TMOwtw_2.5 (http://www.gamefront.com/files/24087203/TMOwTw_2_50_7z) from cdrsubron7 Post #1 takes you to Gamefront.

[alexander22]

Thanks for the tips guys, i pretty much know 50% of that :03:, i personally like the boats that shoots a salvo of ¨depth charges¨, that looks like Panzerfaust heads, they dident do all that much damage, but enough to get slow you down. Thoose boats got more to it and feels funnier to evade, thoose with launchers on the side can be annoying. I try to get over areas where theres sea floor, so incase i get too much flooding, i can try to go silent and slowly sink to the floor and wait it out, if its not too deep, or i try to make a run closer to the island so i hopefully make the destroyers go ''Nah, its not worth it'' or likely. Is there any charts of some kind that shows maximum depths resistance speed fuel & max distance etc?


Thanks for the effort of bringing thoose links, but seems like that dident work either 403 Forbidden this time :confused:, will do some research on it.

My country is banned from download from Gamefront it seems... :down:

[alexander22]

If you are repairing damage, you are not silent. Same with loading torps, or moving above 2 kn.






Do you mean that if im doing Silent Running, and if repair team is assigned/activade, does that still count as generating sound?

[Gibus]

With Silent Running, loading torpedoes is stopped. Repairs, I think too.

[merc4ulfate]

I prefer the AI's as hard as possible .... much better game play that way.

Footnote:

I got a message about a convoy around the west side of Truk and I was a bit North so I went down to investigate. I sat near the entrance of the west side of the lagoon for a while when I picked up high speed screws.

I raised the scope and saw one destroyer, two Kongo Battleships and one Chitose Seaplane Tender with a Japanese mini-sub on board leaving the lagoon. I plotted their exit course and they would have gone within 2000 yards of me if not closer.

I monitored their progress a bit and noticed the DD at about 2000 yards became a constant bearing and closing. I checked in the scope and he was coming for me.

Knowing I could not out run him I went all ahead flank and left full rudder. He was at 270 of me and would have came across in the area of the CONN so my tactic was to move ahead and left as he was coming in ahead and left towards me. At about 50 yards and still at periscope depth I heard the Y-Launchers go off and zeroed my rudder.

He went right over the last 20 feet of the stern but since I had zeroed the steering the launchers missed me deep. His roll off also missed me deep and aft since I had gone ahead flank.

Meanwhile the other three ships steered away at course 270 while mine was 030. I stayed ahead flank. The DD made another pass and missed and fired at my periodic scope appearance. My plan was to attack the large ships and get as close as I could before firing while the DD came around.

After the second pass from the DD I raised scope and fired two magnetic detonator set fish at their shallowest setting. Both hit causing the DD to stop in her tracks and sink quickly. This was the only escort. I got within 2500 years of the other three and fearing I would only get one shot I fired all 6 forward tubes at the lead BB. I had one premature detonation, two dudes, two misses and one hit on her stern.

I cussed.

I had reloaded one in the aft tubes so now I had three and turned hard left in their course to bring around the rear tubes. I fired all three at the second BB at 1500 yards. I had two dudes and one explosion under the main superstructure.

The lead BB began to rest to the rear while the second had flames and began to list to port after at ten minutes.

Reload, reload, reload. Still at flank speed I chased them. They were doing around 18 knots but had slowed to 8 after being hit.

As soon as I had a reload I fired. Both BB were now in a zig zag leap frogging each other. The ship most to the read would cross behind the other ship as it sailed on. The second ship would slow down to 3 knots or so directly behind the other BB. It was guarding the lead against torpedoes.

The second ship would then speed up move in front while the other played guard behind her. I kept course 270 and did not move the rudder to keep my speed at maximum. Their maneuvers kept me close enough by their zig zag and guarding maneuvers to get off 5 more torpedoes with only one striking the one aflame at about 4000 yards.

My speed began to drop and I knew I could not do much more to them. The Chitose was close enough in the chase being to the rear of the BB's that I fire three fish at her and sank her.

The second strike on the BB did little to slow them down. I ceased my attack thankful I had two ships but would have loved to have had them all finding myself in such a lucky spot.

This guarding tactic by both BB's I found completely fascinating. I have never seen ships under AI control pull such a maneuver in hope of protecting each other.

Their tactics, while not being able to sink the BB's, made that whole attack worth playing and most enjoyable.


Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
RFB_2.0
RFB_2.0_Patch_23April2010
RSRDC_RFB_V575
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
Improved Ship Physics_1.1
Real Subs
EAXsoundsim_without_WebstersManeuver_STOCK_GFO_OM

[TorpX]

Do you mean that if im doing Silent Running, and if repair team is assigned/activade, does that still count as generating sound?

If you are asking which takes precedence, after you order both, I can't tell you. The point is that 'Silent Running' is a limited option. There isn't much you can do, if you need to be silent. Move slow and wait. Some expect to fight almost the entire war in 'Silent Running' mode, but this idea makes no sense. It was really only used when the sub was on the defensive, and hard pressed.

Remember all those old sub war movies where the boat is very deep and being hunted? All they could do was creep along, and hope for the best, as ashcans came down intermittently. It was a stressful and nerve-racking situation.

[alexander22]

Sounds great merc4ulfate! I am currently stuck on the first mission hoping for AI to pass along near Truk. I patrolled a quite big area of fuel consumption, if i would had it enabled, so i took a big risk, went to Guam and slowly made my way into it, got 2 contacts, went time compression with silent running on, and mostly trying to float along, but when i got close, they seemed to have spotted me, moving in a circle fashion, i saw that their lights where on, suddently :ping:, i went under trying to evade them since i was after merchants and not destroyers/subschasers, i went down to 200ft (not too good about ft/m translation) but i belive it was near emergency/testing depth, i hoped that i wouldent breach my hull, i had no damage and was not in a treath yet, I heard ''Passing Thermenal'' and i hoped for the pings to become less or not at all, i still heard them fully and as responsively, i dove to 250ft and crossed my fingers, the subschasers did a pass, dropped a can, it hit me, probably between conning and rear deck gun, i took 50% hull damage, In the control room and engine room, i quickly had control room repaired tough i hadent it priotized, i had read the manual on AI sonar and depth/flooding tips, i went ahead flank to avoid sinking into the void, i was at persicope depth, i desperately tried to get my periscope up so i could sink the destroyer, as it seemed as my biggest concern, it had 2 can droppers + 1 charge thrower on each side, i fired about 4-6 torps, some missed, the rest hit, i was suprised it did because it is about 70% i dont hit, even if i am close, still trying to figure out how to fire correctly, doing un-realistic. After that i saved, a storm was on the way.

- TorpX I have seen Das-Boot and i pretty much saw everything, like if they had bad luck and one hit them, they could bash their heads into anything, as the submarines look now, they could even die during that. I hope Ubi is goona release Silent Hunter 6, i know many hates Ubi, but i think they make amazing games, but loads with bugs. With this modding community, I'll sure you would make it great :subsim:!

(Im not good with Ft, since i never took that into account and tried to learn it, so correct me if im wrong, wich im probably are! :doh:)


Changed the system now, its ridiculus how i only went to 80m xD, but now heres another question, how deep can the Gar go? I heard manually clicking the Depth Gauge in the control room allows for deeper depths, but im not sure historical info helps much, is the Trigger Maru that accurate? According to what historical info told me, 250 is max/emergency depth.

[Gibus]

... but now heres another question, how deep can the Gar go?
If you have damage to the hull, it is not recommended to go beyond the safe depth, indicated by the red needle.
Alternatively, you can go down to 300 feet, maybe more, I think.

You must test before you find in critical situations.

[alexander22]

Alright, sounds great, tough i might go to 300M, maximum if so, its rather scary hearing the hull burst! :o

[Gibus]

Hmm ... I seem to have written 300 feet, not 300 meters. :hmm2:

[FSaved]

The AI with or without TMO is too easy, I can walk over it with 100k+ tons on a patrol. The only real challenge is trying to make the most out of the torpedoes. Taking away contact updates and auto targeting just means that time is slightly less compressed, I still only fight undefended merchants at 500 yards.
Based on the technological disparity I would conjecture that the Allied submariners had it a lot easier than their German counterparts, and frankly any true attention to realism will be void of challenge. I'd rather see all of the merchant ships in convoys with 8+ escorts with radar detection and planes chasing after it. Or I can play Aces of the Deep.

[Aktungbby]

FSaved!:Kaleun_Salute: Or I can play Aces of the Deep. Some of us still do!:Kaleun_Wink:

[Jimbuna]

Welcome Aboard FSaved :sunny:

[THEBERBSTER]

A warm welcome ‘FSaved’ to the Subsim family.:subsim:

You will always find someone here to help you.:)

Link to my SH5 – SH4 posts::salute:

Step By Step Tutorials & How To Do It

Also Included Are Some Useful Download Links

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211804 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211804)

I am playing TMO light and the AI is supposed to be a little easier than the full version.

My first enemy encounters as against using other interfaces is that I would still say is pretty aggressive especially if you are in the right place at the wrong time.

Taking on a convoy or task force at 1,000 yards can be suicidal.

[TorpX]

Changed the system now, its ridiculus how i only went to 80m xD, but now heres another question, how deep can the Gar go? I heard manually clicking the Depth Gauge in the control room allows for deeper depths, but im not sure historical info helps much, is the Trigger Maru that accurate? According to what historical info told me, 250 is max/emergency depth.

I think the Gar had a test depth of 250 ft. However, there was a safety factor in this, so they could actually go deeper. TMO, and the other mods model this.

That said, if you suffered 50 % hull damage, and were lucky enough to survive, I would go straight home, and not look for trouble.

[FSaved]

Attacking a convoy might be a problem, but I wouldn't know in patch 1.4 or TMO 1.9 because it's full of undefended merchants. I mean I can just sit there with the scope raised firing one torpedo at a time. Maybe 20 minutes later they'll send a laughable airplane after me.
The only challenge I got in about 15-20 hours is I attacked a 2 destroyer, 1 light cruiser task force and got a handful of depth charges but that was it and I got the cruiser.
Is it significantly better with the expansion and TMO 2.5? This is why I only play old games, because they're more likely to have their issues ironed out and pay more relative attention to substance.
I'm going to give Silent Service 2 a try, I remember the first one giving me nothing but convoys on the C64 (as Aces of the Deep does, at least in later periods).