World War One [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

Oberon

08-04-14, 08:48 AM

I have at least three family members that I am aware of who fought in the First world war.

http://i.imgur.com/oaKNSou.jpg

Edward Clack in 1917, his military medal ribbon visible. His wife, who he married that year, Madge Hayes is also shown.

The first, who I know the most about, is Lance-Sergeant Edward Clack who joined up on the 18th August 1914, joining the Wiltshire Regiment at Devizes and being assigned to the 5th Battalion and sent to Anzac bay in August 1915, landing to support the 'August Offensive'. However during the Ottoman counter-attack of the 10th August, he and a group of four other men were wounded by Ataturks forces and trapped in a gulley for a fortnight before being found and retrieved by a search party.

The Battalions diary for the 10th August notes:

Tuesday August 10th 1915. (Battalion War Diary entry).
(01.00): Battalion moves away in single file less D company and part of B Company. Order of march C - Machine guns - A - B companies "Move by a steep and winding course to a cup-shaped deformation at the head of the Gulley to the right and some distance in front of our salient." (Words of 2 Lieut R.W.M. Dewhurst one of the few officers on the march who subsequently survived.) The Battalion was guided, as far as I am able to ascertain by a New Zealand Officer. Here they arrived two hours before sunrise (0300) and the men were told to dig into dugouts and make themselves comfortable as the position was quite safe. Men therefore removed equipment and rifles. This position I take it to be just N. of the H in Chunuk Bair and the march to it from the Aghyl Dere must have been via the APEX (Ref. Gallipoli Map 1.20,000 Koya Dere) (0430) As soon as it was light machine guns opened on the men lying in their dug outs. About 1/4 of an hour later there was a rush of Turks from both sides of the depression which drove the men, unarmed and unequipped down the gulley (SALZLI BEIT). The bottom of the gulley commanded by machine guns and so escape was cut off. Three courses were possible:-

1. To rush past the machine guns down the Sazli Beit, this was tried but in nearly all cases proved fatal.
2. To climb the northern slope of the ravine under fire and try to escape over the top. This was done in a few cases
with success.
3. Hide in Gulley till night; this also was done with more success. (A party of 5 men was rescued from the Gulley
having been there 16 days from August 10th to August 26th. They reported numbers of men, who were wounded,
unable to get away and died of exhaustion and starvation.).

Parties arrived on the Beach in fours, fives, and some carried bodies during the 11th, 12th and 13th unarmed, unequipped and demoralised.

FROM: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154975

The medical record I have on file from the then Private Edward Clack have his date of wounding on the 10th August, but the record itself is not actually dated until the 26th August. It is therefore likely that he was one of the group of five men rescued from the Gulley on the 26th.
He suffered a gun shot wound to the left leg and was returned to England.
In December of the same year he returned to service as part of the 6th Battalion Wiltshire Regiment, where he served until the 5th July 1916, where he was wounded again during the Battle of the Somme at La Boisselle (part of the Battle of Albert) suffering wounds in the right thigh and shoulder. Again, he returned to England, and again he came back, on the 5th April 1917, joining the 1st Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment in the field. He was involved as an orderly, conducting messages during the attack on Messines Ridge in July 1917, where he was awarded the Military Medal for his service under fire, apparently at one point he was half buried by shell fire, but dug himself out and continued in his duty. Promotion to Lance Corporal soon followed, and by the 12th August he was Corporal Edward Clack. However, nine days later he was wounded at the Battle of Passchendaele, likely in the Westhoek area (although it is possible that he was wounded at Dominion Camp by an enemy aircraft, the Battalion diary notes on the night of the 20th August that '3 Casualties were caused to the Battn by bombs dropped in the neighbourhood of the camp by enemy aeroplanes on the night of the 20th. Wounded, 2nd Lieut G B Hillings and 2 other ranks.), receiving a gun shot wound to the left arm. Following recovery, this time he was posted into the reserve unit, joining the 3rd Battalion back in England, and being promoted to Lance-Sergeant. It was there he remained until wars end, being demobbed in March 1919.

http://i.imgur.com/KiN0OQk.jpg
Private James Collins, date unknown.

The second relative who I am aware of, is Private James Collins, who served with the Gordon Highlanders (and possibly the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders too), I don't know much of his service record but I know that he was injured in the Roclincourt area, between the dates of 9-12th April 1917, possibly by machine-gun fire, and he subsequently died of his wounds a month later. He's mentioned in the Casualty list of the Highlanders here: http://gordonhighlanders.carolynmorrisey.com/CasualtylistApril1917.htm and the Battalion diaries mention casualties from machine-gun fire around that period: http://gordonhighlanders.carolynmorrisey.com/BattleSummary-April1917.htm

http://i.imgur.com/ouYqReq.jpg
Robert Currie, date unknown

The third relative is Robert Currie, and sadly I have no real information about him other than he left his wife and she subsequently told her grand-children that he had died during the war when in fact he had survived, and it wasn't until my great-uncle was 22 that he finally met him. I don't know what unit he served in, but it would seem from the photos I have that he had something to do with horses, so he could have been an artillery driver or cavalry based.

There is a fourth relative, who I think might be my great-grandmothers father, but aside from his photograph I have no information about him and there's no-one left alive on that side of the family to assist.

Sailor Steve

08-04-14, 09:58 AM

WOW! This is off to a great start! Good job Jamie for starting it, and to everyone who's posted so far. :rock:

BossMark

08-04-14, 11:00 AM

I can recall my granddad telling me that my great granddads brother (my great uncle I believe) was a gunnery officer on HMS Warspite and took part in the battle of Jutland

Jimbuna

08-04-14, 11:41 AM

My grandfather (mothers father) served in the army and was buried alive during an artillery bombardment. He survived but was as deaf as a post for the rest of his life.

I can still remember growing up with him beside me on many a dark night but much to my shame I'm unable to remember any of the details of his regiment etc. and my mom (suffers from dementia) can no longer remind me.

Oberon

08-04-14, 02:43 PM

Finished my post. :yep:

August

08-04-14, 03:12 PM

My Great Grandfather, August Karl from Altenbuch im der Spessart.
6th Bavarian Infantry Division

KIA in Belgium 3 October 1918

http://home.comcast.net/~rdsterling/pwpimages/Augustkarl.jpg

Dread Knot

08-04-14, 04:15 PM

I have at least three family members that I am aware of who fought in the First world war.

http://i.imgur.com/oaKNSou.jpg

Edward Clack in 1917, his military medal ribbon visible. His wife, who he married that year, Madge Hayes is also shown.

Fascinating bio.

So he participated in Gallipoli, The Somme, Passchendaele and Messines Ridge? :o

Gads. If anyone ever deserved reserve status it was this brave chap.

Platapus

08-04-14, 04:42 PM

"We were off to fight the Hun
We would shoot him with a gun
Our medals would shine like a sabre in the sun
We were off to fight the Hun
And it seemed like so much fun
It did not seem to be a war at all; at all ;at all
It did not seem to be a war at all...."

Here is an interesting video on the war.
http://www.canadaka.net/video/659-we-re-off-to-fight-the-hun.html

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-04-14, 04:52 PM

A few WWI photos and posters I've found, mostly on Retonaut.

ANZACS at the Pyramids.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/0_zps8c46ca93.png
British Soldiers inspect an observation "tree"
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/246_zpsb60e89a7.jpg
A French anti-aircraft machine gun.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/5210_zps41e2f61f.jpg
British soldiers before a game of gasmask football.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/Gas_zps7b9acd46.jpg
RFC gunnery training.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/Rail_zpsb2ab45c6.jpg
Men of the 369th Infantry Regiment "The Harlem Hellfighters" while attached to the French 16th Division.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/Harlem-Hellfighters-4_zps6b0ed5ad.jpg
An advertisement for Albatross.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/Albatros_zps17848b12.jpg
Fragments from France cover.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/FragmentsCover07a_zps7b3dd98e.jpg
"The Better 'ole", I watched the silent film by the same name made in 1926 (it is hilarious btw).
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/cartoon_zpsb3ad2979.jpg
Another advertisement poster.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/wavintage-1317245375-11178_zps59197280.jpg
A RN recruitment poster featuring Nelson's flagship HMS Victory.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/wvintagew-1316986854-10856_zps24b9efea.jpg
A recruitment poster for the US Army Air Service.
http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/zacharybaty/World_War_I_US_Army_Air_Service_Recruiting_Poster1 _zpsd6fe92c9.jpg

Feuer Frei!

08-04-14, 07:33 PM

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/820/cache/world-war-one-animals-1_82035_600x450.jpg

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-content/photos/000/820/cache/82038_990x742-cb1406313679.jpg

Stubby, mascot of the U.S. Army's 102nd Infantry, 26th Division, became a media sensation after he saved lives in the Great War. Shown here in November 1924, Stubby visited the White House and met three presidents.

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-content/photos/000/820/cache/82037_990x742-cb1406313588.jpg

An elephant donated to the German Army during World War I moves logs under the supervision of soldiers.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SbstGJ4vxbg/TiU5ijMHuhI/AAAAAAAAGuU/sjVZtdHxTTw/s1600/ww1-great-war-rare-unseen-pictures-images-020.jpeg

http://www.allworldwars.com/image/073/GermanAirForceWWI-02.jpg

http://www.arthursletters.com/uploads/1/0/7/9/10791625/7756073_orig.jpg

http://i1040.photobucket.com/albums/b405/VBZ1/A7V/a7v.jpg?t=1288100549

http://i.imgur.com/CJXtA.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/German_WWI_War_Cemetery,_Cannock_Chase,_England.jp g

German WWI War Cemetery, Cannock Chase, England

Es ruhen in diesem Grabe vier,
Nimm auf sie Herr zu Dir.
Sie sind vom Leibregiment,
Das weder Furcht noch Feigheit kennt.
Es waren vier tapf're Helden,
Laß ihnen nichts entgelten.
Sie taten treulich ihre Pflicht
Und scheuten die Gefahren nicht.
Der Leiber achte Kompagnie
Vergißt die Kameraden nie.

"Am Waldesrand mit wildem Mut
Hast Du gekämpft und geschritten,
Fürs Vaterland in heil'ger Glut
Hast Du den Heldentod erlitten.
In majestätisch ernster Ruhe
Dein Kampffeld lag nach hartem Strauß,
Mit Hurra war die Schlacht entschieden,
Doch weh und leise klang sie aus.
Doch nach dem wehen, heißen Ringen
Von Fern erscholl das deutsche Lied,
Du Held kannst ruhig weiterschlafen
Das Vaterland, es feiert Sieg!"

Gott mit uns.

Oberon

08-04-14, 08:24 PM

Fascinating bio.

So he participated in Gallipoli, The Somme, Passchendaele and Messines Ridge? :o

Gads. If anyone ever deserved reserve status it was this brave chap.

Yup, I could barely believe it myself as I read through his papers, what he must have seen and went through I can scant believe. Then, as if what he went through in the first war wasn't enough, he joined up in WWII, got rescued off the beaches at Dunkirk and then survived being torpedoed by a Uboat in the Med while on the way to North Africa. He was finally invalided out of the war with a nasty illness, can't recall the type off hand, in 1943.
He never spoke about it though, not to my mother at least, but that is perhaps to be expected. When she stayed with them, he'd be happiest down his allotment, gardening, and watching the kingfishers in the nearby stream.

Oberon

08-04-14, 08:47 PM

And now for something...well, I'll just copy what I found on twitter.

Mohamed Awaja has tended the British & Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery in #Gaza for 28 years...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuNklziCYAAn73V.jpg:large

But the cemetery he cares for so well is itself in a battlefield today...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuNltdoCIAEUy7c.jpg:large

He has to deal with this-Israeli tank rounds hitting the British cemetery in #Gaza -this one didn't go off others did

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuNt9nOCEAEw-b7.jpg:large

He tends all the graves with the same great care in #Gaza whatever the British soldiers religion...

Thank you Mohamed, and the other men who work with you, and I hope that the war stays away from your corner of Gaza, a symbol that despite all the blood shed in the First World War, humanity as a whole, has still a lot to learn.

Stealhead

08-04-14, 11:00 PM

A friend from my Air Force unit and I once found a some what forgotten little graveyard while mountain biking in Germany.It was located in the woods NE of Waldleiningen,Germany. As I recall 15 or 20 graves mostly WWI but a few from the Franco-Prussian war.

The interesting thing was we found this place 100% by chance as we never made a specific riding plan we just packed some water and food and picked a direction and rode into the woods. Heck we rode 80 or 100 miles many times just exploring. It was pretty much lets see where this trail leads today and then we'd camp at dusk and head back to base in the morning usually arriving on post around dusk the next day that was the weekend.If a steep incline blocked the way we'd just climb up with the bikes on ours backs not sure I could do that now.

So you could say that it was pure serendipity that we found this forgotten grave yard and even better that we managed to find it again the next weekend after one of our German co-workers wanted us to find it again and find what village it was near(we usually did not take maps or composes).The first time we had ridden through the nearest village so we had to sort of back track by way of guessing.

Our friend got some people together and cleaned the whole place up very nicely.I would say that the place had been forgotten by anyone who cared since WWII.

That is what I miss most about Germany the exploring quite a bit of solace in the forest. Probably why they picked that spot in the first place it was surely where those old soldiers liked to be most of all.

Jimbuna

08-05-14, 07:16 AM

Mohamed :salute::rock:

TarJak

08-05-14, 07:24 AM

My grandfather had two uncles who both gave their lives in WWI. The first died on Anzac Day, 25th April 1915 on the first day of the Gallipoli landings. The second died at Passchendale in 1918 a few months before the end of the war.

TarJak

08-10-14, 08:03 AM

Nice tribute at the Tower of London earlier this week:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/5646002-3x2-940x627.jpg

Jimbuna

08-10-14, 08:31 AM

More on the above here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/11021743/Row-on-row-the-poppies-flow-at-the-Tower-of-London.html

nikimcbee

08-13-14, 03:52 PM

If I were a Hollywood:doh: director, I'd make a movie about the U-9 story, the events leading up to this event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-9

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/SM_U9_Postcard.jpg/800px-SM_U9_Postcard.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/SM_U9_Postcard.jpg)

With the CGI today, they could make a pretty cool movie.:hmmm:

Dread Knot

08-13-14, 05:00 PM

If I were a Hollywood:doh: director, I'd make a movie about the U-9 story, the events leading up to this event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-9

With the CGI today, they could make a pretty cool movie.:hmmm:

Would only fly in Hollywood if the plucky American liaison officers onboard the British cruisers, somehow overpower the crew of the U-9 and capture the Sooper-Seekrit cipher device.

Oh, and Superman/Ironman/Captain America need to show up at some point.

Jimbuna

08-14-14, 06:59 AM

Yes, that would be cool Jason but of limited audience interest I suspect.

Rhodes

08-14-14, 08:00 AM

Would only fly in Hollywood if the plucky American liaison officers onboard the British cruisers, somehow overpower the crew of the U-9 and capture the Sooper-Seekrit cipher device.

Oh, and Superman/Ironman/Captain America need to show up at some point.

Nonsense, the are all in their child years and iron man is not even born!

TarJak

08-18-14, 03:02 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-17/victorians-killed-in-wwi-commemorated-in-melbourne-cbd-parade/5676328

Nice commemoration of an event mentioned here: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2233922&postcount=125

Platapus

08-18-14, 07:36 AM

I just wish that someone would make a realistic movie (and video game!!!) based on the SMS Emden.

But then if someone were to read about the actual life of Karl Von Muller, some would believe it was fiction and not history

TarJak

08-18-14, 07:51 AM

Someone did in 1926 (Protugal) and 1928 (Australia): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exploits_of_the_Emden Don't know how much survives or if any of it is accessible other than the clip here: http://aso.gov.au/titles/features/the-exploits-of-the-emden/clip3/?nojs

This clip is focussed on the battle with HMAS Sydney and uses some of the footage from the 1926 film mixed with footage shot in Australia.

I'd love to see a modern version which gets into the story in more depth as well.

Von Tonner

08-18-14, 08:06 AM

Kptlt. Neuerburg

08-18-14, 11:48 AM

Caught the back-end of a doccie on the battle of Messines Ridge. What interested me was the tunnels the British dug and the explosives they put in them. The number of men they killed when they set this off was staggering - and to be heard in London!!!:o

Hope Hamas never get to know this.

"British forces put careful planning into the Battle of Messines Ridge: for the previous 18 months, soldiers had worked to place nearly 1 million pounds of explosives in tunnels under the German positions. The tunnels extended to some 2,000 feet in length, and some were as much as 100 feet below the surface of the ridge, where the Germans had long since been entrenched.

At 3:10 a.m. on June 7, 1917, a series of simultaneous explosions rocked the area; the blast was heard as far away as London."

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/battle-of-messines-ridge Here's a bit more detail about the Battle of Messines Ridge http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/messines.htm. But yes mining or tunnel warfare was in fact fairly common during WW1 so much so that the miners on both sides would warn each other as to when a mine was going to be detonated. Another thing that might interest you is this http://www.firstworldwar.com/today/hawthorncrater.htm
The mine took seven months to lay, being 75ft deep and 1,000ft long. It was prepared with a 40,600lb ammonal charge by 252nd Tunneling Company. The resultant crater was 40ft deep and 300ft wide. And this was at the start of the Somme Offence on the morning of 1 July, 1916.

nikimcbee

08-23-14, 12:36 PM

Just found this:
wwi subs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmGRgW60YI

nikimcbee

08-23-14, 12:45 PM

Ahh, here' what I was looking for. The history channel (H2) finally decided to show something about wwI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVgmmtDdPeI

BrucePartington

08-23-14, 02:14 PM

Ahh, here' what I was looking for. The history channel (H2) finally decided to show something about wwI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVgmmtDdPeI
"Not available in your country" :Kaleun_Mad:

Jimbuna

08-24-14, 08:57 AM

Nor the UK Jason.

Catfish

08-26-14, 03:22 PM

Good film, about how the real mess we still suffer from started, before and in WW1:

Blood and Oil: The Middle East in World War I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP0evPEsc30

Strange enough , the agreement of 1919 (Weizmann and Faisal) is not mentioned, but it is here (Wiki):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%...mann_Agreement

Greetings,
Catfish

TarJak

09-03-14, 11:16 PM

Maud, the girl who stowed away on a troopship to get to the front: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-04/world-war-i-teenage-girl-stowed-away-on-troopship/5687202?section=ww1

Interesting little tale of a young girl keen to do her bit for Australia.

Admiral Halsey

09-04-14, 01:05 AM

Ahh, here' what I was looking for. The history channel (H2) finally decided to show something about wwI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVgmmtDdPeI

What's the name of the battleship/battlecruiser that's sinking about halfway through the video. I thought it was the HMS Barham until it didn't explode and I noticed the triple gun turrets.

DJ Kelley

09-04-14, 01:14 AM

Just an interesting fact that I would like to share about WW I. All Admirals that served during WW I had started there Careers when Sailing Ships where still major parts of a Countries Navy.

I forget where I read that at, but it just goes to show how fast technology had moved by that point.

TarJak

09-07-14, 08:16 AM

25 little known facts about WWI: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/worldwarone/25-things-you-might-not-know-about-world-war-one/5546018

I particularly like this one:
When he served in WWI, Adolf Hitler, like most Germans with facial hair, was sporting a full Kaiser moustache—twiddly points and all. Hitler was ordered to trim his existing facial hair down to the more iconic toothbrush to better fit his gasmask.

TarJak

09-08-14, 01:17 AM

Some cool photo's by a German soldier who took his camera to war: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-05/world-war-i-german-soldier-photographs-behind-enemy-lines/5700758

Jimbuna

09-08-14, 07:55 AM

Especially liked the aviation ones :cool:

nikimcbee

09-09-14, 09:02 PM

Especially liked the aviation ones :cool:
Aviation eh?
Fancy some aeroplanes?

WWI dogfight reenactment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEK88X6u6uE

part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snrrww-vFNg

bonus:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NPmBcOUw1E

Jimbuna

09-10-14, 06:55 AM

Very cool Jason :cool:

TarJak

09-11-14, 06:43 AM

The action at Bita Paka remembered: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-07/world-war-i-relatives-remember-gallantry-battle-bita-paka/5721738?section=ww1

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-08/world-war-i-robert-moffatt-rabaul-bita-paka/5722326?section=ww1

nikimcbee

09-12-14, 12:21 AM

The Fokker Scourge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7aWH84SV3s

TarJak

09-12-14, 04:17 AM

Nice one Jason. :up:

For those of a more naval bent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_xtimui_HE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0D3J6Yvi94

Jimbuna

09-12-14, 07:33 AM

Cavalry Of The Clouds. WW1 Pilots Documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO8oWYLhT6o

nikimcbee

09-13-14, 05:32 PM

Just found this:

Aces Falling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2cBxdHIIWg

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/images/smilies/sguns.png

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/images/smilies/crash.png

Aktungbby

09-13-14, 11:35 PM

^ fascinating; it would appear a little DNA work would be useful in IDing the unknown grave of Mannock allegedly buried by the Germans.

Jimbuna

09-14-14, 06:38 AM

Dogfight - the mystery of the red baron.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U83fBrkqByc

Funeral of the Red Baron (silent).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJUzIKeJJdY

nikimcbee

09-18-14, 11:55 PM

O.....M.....G... I just found this. I've never heard of this series.
Wings BBC

full series:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeagipoZmyfk2R9o0G_f2s_S0wHcG0KaZ

http://www.wingsofwar.org/forums/images/smilies/sfokker.png

nikimcbee

09-19-14, 02:23 PM

Aktungbby

09-19-14, 10:12 PM

DON"T WE ALL! :D http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=815&pictureid=7070right down the road at Paso Robles!

Jimbuna

09-20-14, 09:04 AM

nikimcbee

09-20-14, 11:21 AM

I wish they'd make a film about Jutland. CGI would be good for that. Maybe something along the line of Tora, Tora, Tora, portraying the events that lead up to the battle.:Kaleun_Binocular::ahoy:

nikimcbee

09-26-14, 05:56 PM

Secret weapon of the Somme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2pGoz4ZDgE
:hmmm:

Jimbuna

09-27-14, 07:55 AM

Secret weapon of the Somme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2pGoz4ZDgE
:hmmm:

"This video is not available in your country."

nikimcbee

09-27-14, 09:47 AM

"This video is not available in your country."

That's too bad, it's a British show.:hmmm:
Time Team Special 47 (2011) - The Somme's Secret Weapon

I'd never heard of this before, it's about this monster flamethrower that may have survived the war, buried underground. I've watched half of the program. Very interesting.

nikimcbee

09-27-14, 09:52 AM

That's too bad, it's a British show.:hmmm:
Time Team Special 47 (2011) - The Somme's Secret Weapon

I'd never heard of this before, it's about this monster flamethrower that may have survived the war, buried underground. I've watched half of the program. Very interesting.

oooh, look what I found:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7697251/Secret-terror-weapon-of-the-Somme-battle-discovered.html
:D

Stealhead

09-27-14, 10:05 AM

I wish they'd make a film about Jutland. CGI would be good for that. Maybe something along the line of Tora, Tora, Tora, portraying the events that lead up to the battle.:Kaleun_Binocular::ahoy:

They did a few years ago. Battleship. :D

nikimcbee

09-27-14, 10:11 AM

They did a few years ago. Battleship. :D

...a non-Hollywood film.
:Kaleun_Crying:

Sailor Steve

10-11-14, 06:04 PM

Coming soon: The Battles of Coronel and The Falklands!
http://www.theguardian.com/film/video/2014/sep/25/battles-of-coronel-and-falkland-islands-navy-trailer-video

I'm excited. :rock:

Jimbuna

10-12-14, 07:23 AM

Looking forward to that :cool:

Sailor Steve

10-26-14, 12:02 PM

I've just post in the 100 Years (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2255549&postcount=366) thread about Graf Spee's squadron coaling at Más Afuera. This Island is today known as Isla Alejandro Selkirk, since it is the Island on which Alexander Selkirk was marooned from 1704-1709. While there is no direct connection, Selkirk's adventures are believed to be the inspiration for Daniel DeFoe's novel Robinson Crusoe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Selkirk

Mas Afuera's sister island, Más a Tierra, is today known as Isla Robinson Crusoe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Fern%C3%A1ndez_Islands

Oberon

10-26-14, 03:20 PM

Planning to swing by the moat of the Tower of London tomorrow, see their poppy field. Will be quite sobering.

Sailor Steve

10-26-14, 03:38 PM

Since I'll likely never get a chance to come there, please post pictures. :sunny:

Oberon

10-26-14, 04:30 PM

Since I'll likely never get a chance to come there, please post pictures. :sunny:

Will do.

Jimbuna

10-27-14, 07:10 AM

Will do.

....and make sure tis Gemma in the foreground and not you :)

Oberon

10-27-14, 04:59 PM

Cheeky bugga! :lol:

Took some pics there, very busy, lots of people visiting it, which is great to see.
Also took some pictures of the Merchant Navy memorial which is next to the Tower.
Then went to the IWM and walked through their WWI exhibits, It's nicely setup, good use of exhibits and modern tech.

All the pictures are from my phone, since I went to Lewisham in the morning before we went to Tower Hill and I didn't fancy getting the camera half-inched in bandit country ;)

Will post them all up when I get back home. :)

Jimbuna

10-28-14, 04:44 AM

Nice one...not been there for an age :cool:

Oberon

10-28-14, 03:22 PM

As requested, the sea of poppies at the Tower of London, I'll put the MN memorial in the photos thread.

http://i.imgur.com/nfNCehb.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/L0NFyOd.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/4sFyKdx.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/BRWVghN.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/JGAC01L.jpg?1

Personally, I think the memorial should have marked the war dead of all nations rather than just that of the UK, but I guess it would have been a bit harder to fit 17 million poppies in the moat.... :hmmm:

Still a very sobering sight...

Jimbuna

10-29-14, 08:24 AM

That must have been an awesome experience Jamie :sunny:

Sailor Steve

10-30-14, 11:09 AM

Beautiful shots. Sorry I didn't respond sooner, considering that I requested them.

Sailor Steve

11-01-14, 01:30 PM

On this, the 100th anniversary of the Battle of Coronel, I thought it the best time to bring up an old and oft-discussed question: What if HMS Canopus had been there?

On the one hand is the opinion of many of the old battleship's crew, that the 6" armor would have been almost useless, the four 12" guns had the range of the German 21cm, but could only fire 1 round per minute vs the Germans 3 rpm. So either Scharnhorst or Gneisenau alone could put out 24 rounds in a minute to Canopus's 4. Of course the 12" round was going to do a lot more damage if one did hit. Also the German fire would be divided among three ships rather than two.

On the other side is the opinion of Spee himself, which was that "Against her we could hardly do anything. If they had kept their forces together we should, I suppose, have had the worst of it." But Spee had originally thought he was facing a newer battleship, armed with newer, faster-firing guns and carrying 12" armor. This leaves a third option, which is that if Canopus had showed up Spee might have simply used his superior speed to run away.

Of course such speculation is always fruitless in the end, but for the wargamer it opens up endless possibilities. :sunny:

Aktungbby

11-01-14, 02:06 PM

IMHO: the wily Spee would have not taken on a Battleship knowingly on the ''far side of the world'. I only venture this on the subsequent action at the battle of the Falkland Islands when Canopus did open fire from her protected mooring using hilltop spotters; "The British cruiser Canopus opened fire and, although the two German ships were out of range, drove them back to rejoin their group which then steamed eastward at full speed to avoid action. Canopus then fired her rear turret using practice rounds which were already loaded for a planned practice shoot. The blank shells ricocheted off the sea, one of them hitting the rear-most funnel of Gneisenau." firing the first shots of the Battle of the Falklands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Falklands) at the extreme range of 12,000 yards (11 km); although von Spee was beyond the range of her guns she did succeed in hitting the after funnel of the armoured cruiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armoured_cruiser)SMS Gneisenau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Gneisenau) with a 12-inch (305-mm) shell that ricocheted off the water Under fire from Canopus and spotting the tophampers of Sturdee's battlecruisers, von Spee called off his force's planned attack on the Falklands' radio and coaling stations and ran, allowing Sturdee's force to raise steam and pursue the German force. ADM Sturdee gave chase and destroyed von Spee's squadron by the end of the day. To go from attack to retreat on the effect of a 12" superior battery firing blanks indicates Spee understood his squadrons' greater value as " a threat-in-being' tying up precious British naval resources in the Pacific. Had the determined Cradock been able to uptick his firepower with Canopus present, to cause any amount of harm to Spee's squadron, Spee would have used his vessels' speed to evade harm at Coronel...http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/pub/coronelfalklands.html (http://www.christopherlong.co.uk/pub/coronelfalklands.html) :hmmm:

Catfish

11-01-14, 05:41 PM

^Thanks for posting those photos, moving idea to symbolize this with red poppies. However .. i think while we should honour veterans, one should never stop asking questions, about whether it was really necessary to "create those veterans", in a way. Because usually it was not worth it, and without a certain government, state of mind and propaganda, it would not have happened.

Very good analysis by Niall Ferguson, about whether WW1 was necessary as it happened.
I am still reading "The pity of war", powerful book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9yNEvV6lI4

Oberon

11-01-14, 06:08 PM

Oberon

11-03-14, 02:44 PM

http://i.imgur.com/kVzPdQW.jpg

Kptlt. Neuerburg

11-03-14, 05:18 PM

A slightly different version of the above.
http://angusmcleod.deviantart.com/art/World-War-One-Simple-Version-128505446

Sailor Steve

11-06-14, 09:44 AM

In an effort to keep the '100 Years' thread from becoming too cluttered, I'm posting this here. If people think it would serve better there, I can move it.

The Pursuit of Graf Spee - Background:

John Arbuthnot 'Jacky' Fisher was an officer dedicated to progress and the modernization of the Royal Navy. He started to become famous when made Director of Naval Ordinance and Torpedoes in 1886. Fisher became First Sea Lord in 1904, and immediately began planning a complete restructuring of the navy, beginning with building the first all-big-gun battlship, HMS Dreadnought, and the starting of a new class of equivalent all-big-gun armoured cruisers, later to be renamed "battlecruisers".

Fisher made many enemies during the course of this program, mainly due to the cost of the project, plus of course the resistance to change found in any old and large organization. The most vocal of these enemies was Lord Charles Beresford. Beresford and Fisher had worked together in the past, but had also had many disagreementes. The final falling-out came when Fisher was made First Sea Lord in 1904, a job Beresford felt he should have gotten.

In 1907 the Imperial Maritime League was founded with Beresford as its guiding light, and its main purpose being the ousting of Fisher. Its members derisively referred to Fisher's group of followers as "The Fishpond".

The presence of a battleship armed with ten 12-inch guns and capable of steaming three knots faster than any other capital ship startled Germany into a program of building the same, and Fisher's political strategy was to emphasize the building of the new German ships as proof that he was right.

Up to this time Fisher had been asking for six new ships, but it was felt that there was only enough money for four. The differences in opinion led to political hostilities between Fisher's group, who called themselves 'patriots', but referred to by their enemies as 'warmongers'; and Beresford's, called in the same fashion 'pacifists' and 'little Englanders'.

An interesting view of Winston Churchill (at that time one of the leaders of the Board Of Trade) was written by the King's private secretary: "What are Winston's reasons for acting as he does in this matter? Of course it cannot be from conviction or principle. The very idea of his having either is enough to make anyone laugh".

Then in 1909 word came that Austria was also starting to build Dreadnought-type ships, and the fear began to spread that not only would these potential enemies have nearly as many of the new ships as the RN, but combined would actually have more! Almost overnight opinion fell firmly on Fisher's side and the building program was increased. In Churchill's own words: "In the end a curious and characteristic solution was reached. The Admiralty had demanded six ships, the economists offered four, and we finally compromised on eight". Beresford and his followers still opposed the project, but the newspapers and the public sided with Fisher, and the rallying cry became "We want eight and we won't wait!".

But at the same time as he was getting his ships built Fisher was losing ground personally. Within the navy he was perceived as a bully, and as a loner who wanted his own way and damn the consequences. In 1910 Fisher was forced to resign. He was replaced by Sir Arthur Wilson, a believer in Fisher's policies but without his predecessor's will to fight for those beliefs.

In 1911 Winston Churchill became First Lord of the Admiralty. Unlike his predecessors, Churchill insisted on a hands-on style, making personal inspections and sailing with the admirals, gathering their advice and opinions. Within the year he had replaced Wilson as First Sea Lord with Sir Francis Bridgeman, an admiral Churchill felt he could mold into his own image.

Popular opinion of Churchill at the time, as expressed in The National Review, was "A self-serving mountebank". Churchill received constant advice from Fisher, and proceeded to improve the new constructions still more, upgrading from 12-inch to 13.5 and then 15-inch guns, and going ahead with oil-fired boilers despite heavy opposition. After all, Britain was home to the best coal in the world, and oil had to be purchased from "Johnny-Arab Land". Fisher also inspired Churchill to expand naval aviation, with the building in 1913 of the world's first true aircraft carrier, HMS Hermes. By this time Churchill had also taken a personal interest in the details of how things worked, such as periscopes and range-finders, and to push the development centralized fire-control and dedicated gun directors, and the sailors of His Majesty's Royal Navy were starting to develop a respect and fondness for him.

During this period Churchill had replaced Bridgeman as First Sea Lord with Prince Louis of Battenberg. Battenberg was a good match for Churchill, and together they develod a navy that was ready for the war to come. When that war did come, however, Battenberg proved too sensitive to his detractors and finally resigned. Jacky Fisher was once again First Sea Lord.

My main source for this story is The Great War at Sea, by Richard Houghton, with some coming from Graf Spee's Raiders, by Keith Yates. The words, however, are all mine.

Aktungbby

11-06-14, 01:23 PM

One of Jacky Fishers first orders as First Sea Lord was the removal of the Chief-Of-Staff, Vice Admiral Sir Frederick Charles Doveton Sturdee Churchill and Fisher may well have had their reservations about actually firing that "pedantic ASS" ADM Sturdee, who had entered the Royal Navy at age twelve (veeery old school!:rock:) in 1871 and been around awhile...to say the least "learning the ropes" of high naval politics certainly! For his (upcoming) victory Sturdee was created baronet in January 1916. He later commanded the 4th Battle Squadron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Battle_Squadron_(United_Kingdom)) at Jutland aboard HMS Benbow, becoming admiral in 1917. On board at Jutland: commanding 4th Squadron at Jutland http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Frederick_Doveton_Sturdee_1916_HMS_Hercules.jpg/220px-Frederick_Doveton_Sturdee_1916_HMS_Hercules.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frederick_Doveton_Sturdee_1916_HMS_Hercules.j pg)HMS Benbow (IronDuke class) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/HMS_Benbow1.jpg/300px-HMS_Benbow1.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMS_Benbow1.jpg)
After the War he became C'n C' the Nore and was promoted to Admiral of the Fleet in 1921. He was appointed Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Grand_Cross_of_the_Order_of_the_Bath) (GCB) in the 1921 New Year Honours, having already been appointed Knight Commander. 1925. He was buried in the churchyard of St. Peter's Church in Frimley. His gravestone incorporates a cross made from the timbers of Nelson's ship, HMS Victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory).:hmmm: (My only reason for posting this!:up: ) His grandson William Staveley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Staveley_(Royal_Navy_officer)) and grandson-in-law Edward Ashmore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Ashmore) were also Admirals of the Fleet. Runs in the family!:smug: Whether taking on Adm. Spee on his own-avenging Cradock; Scheer at Jutland; or the combined might of First Sea Lords: Fisher and Churchill...IMHO: the right stuff and worthy of his spurs! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doveton_Sturdee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doveton_Sturdee)

Aktungbby

11-06-14, 03:02 PM

In 1911 Winston Churchill became First Lord of the Admiralty. Unlike his predecessors, Churchill insisted on a hands-on style, making personal inspections and sailing with the admirals, gathering their advice and opinions. Within the year he had replaced Wilson as First Sea Lord with Sir Francis Bridgeman, an admiral Churchill felt he could mold into his own image.
Winston Churchill, having been under fire in India, Omdurman Sudan, South Africa and WWI, Lt. Col. W.S. Churchill: 6th Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers 1916>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/WinstonChurchill1916Army.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WinstonChurchill1916Army.gif) never lost an opportunity to mold his image! On D-Day+ 6, 6/12/44, as is not often recalled, the former first Sea Lord was aboard HMS Kelvin with an impeccable witness; Sir Alan Brooke and Field Marshall Jan Smuts, enroute to GEN Montgomery's headquarters on the beaches. http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/churchill-brooke-595x471.jpg (http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/churchill-brooke.jpg) Dissuaded from clambering aboard a monitor, HMS Roberts, (the 12th of June, the bridgehead in Normandy was still only a matter of a few miles deep and still under intermittent shellfire, and occasional air attack. Inland the clashes with the Panzer units were becoming more serious.) actually firing inland with 15" guns; Churchill persuaded the HMS Kelvin destroyer Captain to fire some rounds...Brooke records: "Then we returned to our destroyer and went right back to the east end of the beach where several ships were bombarding the Germans. Winston wanted to take part in the war, and was longing to draw some retaliation. However the Boche refused to take any notice of any of the rounds we fired." Oh well a ' A' for effort!http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/churchill-montgomery1-595x589.jpg (http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/churchill-montgomery1.jpg)On the beach 6/12/44. HMS Kelvin-truly a 'ship of State' for a day!>http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/peek_01/15570965/115953/115953_600.jpg (http://peek-01.livejournal.com/pics/catalog/378/115953)http://ww2today.com/12-june-1944-churchill-makes-a-day-trip-to-normandy (http://ww2today.com/12-june-1944-churchill-makes-a-day-trip-to-normandy)

Jimbuna

11-09-14, 07:50 AM

The Destruction of the SMS Emden (an alternative viewpoint)

In a three month period since the beginning of World War One, SMS Emden had enjoyed great success in a raiding career spanning 30,000 nautical
miles (56,000 km; 35,000 mi), Emden had destroyed two Entente warships and sank or captured sixteen British steamers and one Russian merchant ship, totaling 70,825 gross register tons (GRT). Another four British ships were captured and released, and one British and one Greek ship were used as colliers.

During this period there were over seventy allied warships tasked with hunting her down, Emden was arguably the most hunted ship in the world and yet Müller managed to elude the combined efforts of highly capable battleships , the Japanese cruisers Yahaghi and Chikuma, the Russian Askold and the British Hampshire and Yarmouth, HMS Gloucester, HMS Weymouth, RMS Empress of Russia and SS Empress of Australia amongst others.

http://s24.postimg.org/a8s9jyhol/SMS_Emden.jpg (http://postimage.org/)http://s30.postimg.org/tmtk3iq9t/Karl_Von_Muller.jpg (http://postimage.org/)Karl_Von_Muller

In London the first lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill, fired off a passionate memo "The escape of the Emden from the Bay of Bengal is most unsatisfactory, I do not understand on what principle the operations of the four cruisers Hampshire, Yarmouth, Dupleix and Chikuma have been concerted….Who is the senior captain of these four ships? Is he a good man? If so, he should be told to hoist a commodore's broad pennant and take command of the squadron which should devote itself exclusively to hunting the Emden."

In November 1914 Captain von Müller took his ship through the Sunda Strait towards the Cocos Islands, where he planned to destroy the Eastern Telegraph Company wireless station at Direction Island, thereby crippling Allied communication in the Indian Ocean. This station was co-ordinating the attack on his ship, using sighting reports.

http://s30.postimg.org/i3kdsrlhd/map_1.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Emden reached Direction Island on 9 November. Müller decided to send a landing party ashore under First Lieutenant Helmuth von Mücke to destroy the station's radio tower and equipment. Fifty seamen with rifles and machine guns were sent ashore. The British civilians, aware of the gallant conduct of the Emden's captain and crew, did not resist. The Emden's landing party even agreed not to knock the radio tower down over the island's tennis court. But in the extra time spent to facilitate this request , they double crossed the Germans and shot off a ham message.

http://s1.postimg.org/8lw4f30j3/aaa.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
Emden's landing party going ashore on Direction Island; the three-masted Ayesha is visible in the background.

The Germans attempted to jam those transmissions, but Müller now made the first mistake of a nearly error-free cruise. Instead of assuming the worst and returning to sea he prepared to coal from the nearby Buresk. It was too late and personal retribution was not the Emden style.

The Australian light cruiser HMAS Sydney, was dispatched to reach Direction Island at 9th Nov at 0630 hours from an Australian troop convoy en route to Colombo. Being a mere 55 miles north of the Island, she arrived there in about two hours.

http://s8.postimg.org/d6dr399t1/HMAS_SYDNEY.jpg (http://postimage.org/)http://s12.postimg.org/aveb7jqd9/glossop.jpg (http://postimage.org/)John Collings Taswell Glossop

Shortly after 9 a.m., the lookout reported a ship to the north. Initially, crewmen thought the stranger was Buresk, but when they saw it approaching very rapidly and recognized four funnels, the Germans knew they were in trouble. Müller signalled frantically for the shore party to return. When it was slow to respond, the raider raised anchor and steamed out of the harbor at about 9:30.

The stranger proved to be an Australian light cruiser, HMAS Sydney, commanded by Captain John Glossop. The fifty-six-hundred-ton Sydney mounted eight 6-inch guns, and was capable of a flank speed of twenty-five knots. In the three areas that mattered—speed, firepower, and armour—it far outclassed Emden. Absent a storm—and the weather was clear—Emden could neither outfight its opponent nor escape.

Müller's one hope lay in the torpedo. Outside the harbor he turned toward his adversary, who himself turned so that both vessels were heading north.
Müller later wrote, "I had to attempt to inflict such damage…with the guns that he would be slowed down in speed significantly before I could switch to a promising torpedo attack." Captain Glossop would write, "I sighted almost immediately the smoke of a ship, which proved to be Emden, coming out towards me at a great rate….I kept my distance as much as possible to obtain the advantage of my [heavier] guns."

Briefly, Emden demonstrated the superior gunnery that would become a hallmark of the kaiser's fleet. The raider scored repeatedly with its 4.1-inch guns, but the 35-pound projectiles inflicted only superficial damage. Then Sydney began to batter the raider with its 6-inch guns. One of Emden's engineering officers recalled: "After the first enemy shells struck us, the motor for working the fans broke down. The temperature reached 152 F. About fifteen minutes after the action opened, hits were felt near the engines, noticeable by the ship listing to port, by floor-plates starting to move and by objects on the walls being torn from their fixtures."

An Australian correspondent on Sydney wrote: "After the lapse of about three-quarters of an hour, the Emden had lost two funnels and the foremast; she was badly on fire aft and amidships, so that at times nothing more than the top of the mainmast could be seen amid the clouds of steam and smoke. Her guns, now only occasionally firing, gave out a short yellow flash by which they could be distinguished by the dark red flames of the Sydney's bursting lyddite."

http://s1.postimg.org/wp0dq1h0v/Last_Battle_of_SMS_Emden_a.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

The fight went on for nearly an hour and a half, Emden herself suffered serious damage, being struck over 100 times by shells from Sydney. Captain von Muller, unable to bring his torpedoes to bear, his ship a veritable slaughter-house, and his guns impotent, forced himself to order the ship run aground on the closest reef off North Keeling Island so that the wounded might live without drowning. The Emden was now incapable of fighting, and lay a helpless wreck on a coral reef, heavily listed to port , at 1115 AM on 9th Nov.

http://s24.postimg.org/93pzddqth/5912125148_f8b09d5070_z.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
Emden, beached on North Keeling Island

At this point Müller's collier, appeared at a very inopportune moment and Sydney left the scene to pursue the collier Buresk which had just cast off from Emden while bunkering at anchor. The Germans aboard the Buresk stared in consternation at the charging Sydney, and at the smoking, fireblackened hulk that had once been the silvery Emden but they could still cheat the British out of the pleasure of recovering a war prize. Thus, even as the British ordered them to surrender, they were busy scuttling the Buresk. The small arms were thrown overboard, the secret papers burnt, and the wireless station destroyed.

Meanwhile two boats were cleared and provisioned for the the remaining crew in case the Sydney showed her meanness and refused to take the Buresk's crew aboard her. Thus, Capt Glossep found himself with a few mangy lifeboats in tow instead of a war prize. This took away some of his glow, and it was said that he cursed and swore on the bridge at the Germans for their trick. He could NOT fire as the Buresk communicated that they had British cooks on board.

Returning at 1630 hours to the beached cruiser, Sydney's commander, Captain John Glossop, in a most disgraceful and foul manner , re-opened fire, taking out all his personal pent up frustrations on Capt Muller. Capt Glossop did NOT allow his conscience to overtake his criminal and mean nature as he ordered salvo after salvo on to the totally disabled and listed Emden at 4 PM. 2/3 of Emden was lying on the reef, and there was no way she could shoot back.

As salvo after salvo hit, the firmly grounded Emden was reduced to a blitzed and twisted mass of blazing metal.

http://s27.postimg.org/h6r6ugxtv/Boyd_Cocos_02.jpg (http://postimage.org/)http://s3.postimg.org/nkjyeudur/Boyd_Cocos_03.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Sydney had always shot at Emden from " beyond Emden guns range " -- even if Emden wanted to shoot back there was NO way this could be done. Only a torpedo from Emden meant any danger to Sydney, and this could NOT be done in this grounded position.

Finally, as an Aussie sailor on Sydney noted later "The mutilation of the dead and splattered blood and bone fragments was beyond belief."

It was said Capt Glossop's own men on Sydney were glaring at him accusingly, some young sailors were crying.

Capt Von Muller noted that he did NOT have a flag mast , as the area was burning, and quickly arranged a white hospital bedsheet to flutter. Sydney then instead of attending to the wounded on Emden as per seagoing traditions and code of conduct in war, steamed to Direction Island to check out the wireless equipment. Glossop then decided to lay off and approach Emden the next afternoon at 1300 hrs on 10th.

Captain von Muller tried to organize the survivors into rescue parties so that the wounded could be brought up on deck for transfer to the island. In rough weather the breeched buoy broke. He gave permission to everyone on deck to swim to the island. During that night Surgeon Schwabe, who had swum to land, succumbed to his wounds

After a disgraceful delay of 21 hours, where in wounded men on Emden either bled to death or developed gangrene, the Captain and crew of Sydney after havng partaken in breakfast and lunch came back and sent two boats with an officer to the Emden with the information that the commander of
the Sydney was ready to take aboard the survivors of the Emden's crew.

Glossop later said that he "felt like a murderer" for ordering the last salvoes, but had no choice under the circumstances.

The Emden lost 134 killed and 65 severely wounded. The Sydney lost 4 killed and 12 wounded.The boarding survivor Germans did not moan, nor whimper nor malinger.

Captain von Muller was the last to leave as was proper for the commanding officer of a defeated vessel. Meanwhile he made sure that the guns were made unserviceable by throwing overboard the breech-blocks and destroying the sights, the torpedo-director was thrown overboard and all the secret papers that had not been already burnt were destroyed. He ordered fires to be drawn in all boilers, and all the engine and boiler rooms to be flooded.

Capt von Muller then resigned himself to waiting aboard the wreck until the Sydney returned.

http://s23.postimg.org/pdth2gwi3/1024px_Emden_gun_3.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
One of Emden 's 10.5 cm guns in Hyde Park, Sydney.

Historians, Writer and Sellick record the extraordinary scene when von Muller, with a guard of honour, was piped aboard the Sydney:

"Capt John CT Glossop greeted him on the gangway, shook his adversary's hand firmly, he would not meet Capt Muller’s steely eyes. In a gesture of conscience that made every onlooking eye moist, Capt Glossop suddenly put his arm around Capt von Muller's shoulder, and led him to his own cabin.
He proved that he was human and NOT an animal."

The surviving German crew, were transferred to the SS Empress of Russia and taken to Colombo.

Müller had the Iron Cross First Class bestowed upon him by Kaiser Wilhelm II. In fact, every officer serving on the Emden was awarded the Iron Cross First Class and 50 crewmen were given the Iron Cross Second Class.

On October 8, 1916, Müller was separated from the rest of the Emden crew prisoners and taken to England where he was interned at a prisoner of war camp for German officers located at the Midlands Agricultural and Dairy College (now the Sutton Bonington Campus of the University of Nottingham).

In 1917 he led an escape of 21 prisoners through an underground tunnel, but was recaptured. From a corner of a hut inside the POW camp at Sutton Bonington, located in what today is the campus of the University of Nottingham agricultural science college, the prisoners had dug a shaft about
four feet deep and then tunneled more than 120 feet under the electrified barbed wire fences and a private road, to the outside world, under Capt Muller’s leadership.

The tons of earth that had been dug out had been scattered all over the prison grounds quietly. They had fashioned civilian clothes from old blankets and discarded pieces of material. They had squirreled away provisions, made maps, even a home-made compass.

Capt Muller was one of the 22 fugitives who emerged out of a tunnel into a turnip field and scattered in small groups across the nearby farmland, triggering a massive manhunt that involved the military, police and special constables, a contingent of the Royal Naval Air Service from RAF Cranwell,
Boy Scouts, farmers, gamekeepers and even women. It took only one week to round up all the prisoners.

To a man they gave up without a fight, most of them too cold, tired and thirsty to carry on, most of them were disabled due to malnutrition and cramps. The majority were found within a few miles of the camp, hiding out in ditches and woods.

Capt von Muller and his comrades were tried by the British at Derby Assizes. Among the charges was the theft of blankets belonging to King George V.

They were given a variety of short jail sentences, von Muller getting 58 days.

Most of Emden's survivors spent the remainder of the war as prisoners on Malta. Müller was imprisoned first on Malta and then in England. The climate of England disagreed with his malaria, and he was eventually sent to the Netherlands for treatment as part of a humanitarian prisoner exchange.
In October 1918 he was repatriated to Germany.

His executive officer, Mucke (I believe Steve is going to post details of him and his mens exploits/adventures in returning home), made the most of his experiences on Emden and prospered after the war as an author and lecturer. Müller, in contrast, declined most invitations to speak and lived quietly at his home in Blankenburg until his death in 1923. Asked once why he did not write a memoir, Müller replied, "I should not be able to escape the feeling that I was coining money from the blood of my comrades."

Capt Karl Von Muller, the German naval ship Captain of SMS.Emden, renowned for his daring, valor and chivalry to the losers during the First World War...was he the greatest wartime sea captain ever?

Most of the above content was gleaned from a variety of sites such as those listed below and as such all credit and recognition should be duly given:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_M%C3%BCller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Emden_(1908)
http://www.historynet.com/karl-friedrich-max-von-muller-captain-of-the-emden-during-world-war-i.htm
http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/an-officer-and-gentlemen-karl-von.html

Jimbuna

12-08-14, 08:21 AM

Battle of the Falkland Islands

On November 11 1914 the battlecruisers Invincible and Inflexible under Admiral Sturdee left for the Falkland Islands. HMS Princess Royal was dispatched to the Caribbean to guard the Panama Canal. The shock of the defeat at Coronel had made the Royal Navy take decisive action to destroy Spee and the battlecruisers were the chosen means for retribution.

After his victory Spee coaled and then loitered in the Pacific whilst he decided what to do next, little did he realise that this indecision would prove fatal. Eventually he decided to enter the Atlantic and try to make it home. The squadron had passed Cape Horn by December 1 and on the following day they captured the Drummuir carrying coal. They then rested for three days at Pictou Island. Spee wanted to raid the Falkland Islands but his captains were opposed to the idea, however in the end Spee decided to go ahead anyway, another decision he was to regret.

HMS Canopus was now beached at Port Stanley, the capital of the Falklands, as guard ship. On December 7 Sturdee arrived, bringing the British warships at Port Stanley to the pre-dreadnought Canopus, the battlecruisers Invincible and Inflexible, the armoured cruisers Kent, Carnarvon and Cornwall, the light cruisers Bristol and Glasgow and the armed merchant cruiser Macedonia.

On the morning of December 8 1914 Gneisenau and Nürnberg were detached from the main squadron, which followed about fifteen miles behind, to attack the wireless station and port facilities at Port Stanley. At 0830 they sighted the wireless mast and smoke from Macedonia returning from patrol.

They didn't know that at 0750 they had been sighted by a hill top spotter which signalled Canopus which then signalled Invincible, flagship, via Glasgow. The British ships were still coaling and most ships, including the battlecruisers, would take a couple of hours to get up steam. If the Germans attacked the British ships would be stationary targets and any ship which tried to leave harbour would face the concentrated fire of the full German squadron, if they were sunk whilst leaving harbour the rest of the squadron would be trapped in port. Sturdee kept calm, ordered steam to be raised and then went and had breakfast!

0900 the Germans made out the tripod masts of capital ships. They were unsure of what theses ships were but they knew Canopus was in the area and they hoped that these were pre-dreadnoughts, which they could easily outrun.
Canopus was beached out of site of the German ships, behind hills but had set up a system for targeting using land based spotters. At 13,000 yards her forward turret fired but was well short, the massive shell splashes astonished the German ships who could see no enemy warships. The rear turret then fired using practice rounds which were already loaded for an expected practice shoot later. The blank shells ricocheted off the sea, one of them hitting the rearmost funnel of Gneisenau. The two German ships turned away. Canopus didn't fire again but she saved the British from a perilous situation.

By 0945 Bristol had left harbour, followed 15 minutes later by Invincible, Inflexible, Kent, Carnarvon and Cornwall, Bristol and Macedonia stayed behind. The German squadron had a 15-20 mile lead but with over eight hours of daylight left and fine weather the battlecruisers would be in action in a couple of hours.

The German lookouts could now tell that the tripod masts belonged to battlecruisers which at c25 knots were considerably faster than the 20 knots the in need of refit German ships could manage. Spee set course to the South East in the hope of finding bad weather.

At first the British squadron stayed together but the battlecruisers were being slowed down by the other ships and so pulled ahead on their own.

At 1247 at 16,500 yards the battlecruisers opened fire, with little accuracy, taking half an hour to straddle the rear ship, Leipzig. Spee realised he was caught and turned his armoured cruisers to slow the British whilst ordering his light cruisers to try and escape. Sturdee had made contingency plans for this and Invincible, Inflexible and the trailing Carnarvon engaged the armoured cruisers whilst the rest of the force set off after the light cruisers.

The battlecruisers turned onto a parallel course to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau at 14,000 yards. The Germans had the advantage of being in the lee position of the wind, the British gunnery was badly affected by their own smoke. The German shooting was excellent but at this long range their shells did little damage to the battlecruisers. The British also scored a few hits which did more damage but they were unaware of this as the visibility prevented them from seeing these.

In an attempt to gain the lee (smoke free) position Sturdee made a sharp turn to starboard towards Spee's stern. Whilst performing this turn the British were shrouded in their own smoke and Spee took this opportunity to turn south, pulling out of firing range. It took the British another 45 minute stern chase before they could resume firing.

At 1450 the battlecruisers turned to port to bring their broadsides to bear. Spee decided that his only chance was to close the range and use his superior secondary armament but his change of course made the smoke much less of a problem for the British. Their firing became much more accurate and both German ships, but especially Scharnhorst suffered severe damage and casualties. By had received over fifty hits, three funnels were down, she was on fire and listing. The range kept falling and at 1604 Scharnhorst listed suddenly to port and by 1617 she had disappeared. As Gneisenau was still firing no rescue attempts were possible and her entire crew including Spee were lost. Invincible had received 22 hits, over half 8.2 inch, but these caused no serious damage and only one crew member was injured.

Gneisenau kept on alone, zigzagging to the south west. At 1715 she scored her last hit on Invincible before her ammunition ran out. The British stopped firing soon afterwards and the burning German ship ground to a halt, her crew opening the sea-cocks and abandoning ship, 190 crew from a total of 765 were rescued but many of these died from their wounds. Inflexible was only hit 3 times and had 1 killed and 3 injured.

Whilst the big ships were fighting the smaller cruisers were having their own battles. The German light cruisers were in the order Dresden leading followed by Nürnberg and Leipzig whilst the British were led by Glasgow with Cornwall and Kent trying to keep up with her.

At 1445 Glasgow opened fire on Leipzig, Leipzig turning to port to reply, scoring two early ships whilst Glasgow's fell short. Glasgow had to turn away, allowing Leipzig to resume her earlier course. The other German ships had not turned to help Leipzig but had carried on their escape attempt.

Glasgow fired on Leipzig again, but this time the other German cruisers changed course, Dresden to the South West and Nürnberg to the South East. Glasgow's ploy of forcing Leipzig to turn and fire succeeded in slowing her so that at 1617 Cornwall had her in range, Kent setting off after Nürnberg.

Leipzig's firing was good but she didn't hit Glasgow and her shells didn't do much damage to Cornwall. By 1900 Leipzig's mainmast and two funnels were down and she was on fire. When her ammunition was exhausted she made an unsuccessful torpedo attack on Cornwall and then her crew prepared to abandon ship.

Glasgow closed the range to finish her off as her flag was still flying, stopping when two green flares were fired by the crippled German cruiser. At 2120 she rolled over and sank leaving eighteen survivors.

Cornwall had received eighteen hits but no casualties. Glasgow had received no damage after the two early hits which killed one and four wounded. Her boilers were damaged which reduced her speed enough for there to be no chance of catching Dresden which escaped.

Nürnberg had a 10 mile led on Kent and was, on paper, faster, but Nürnberg needed an engine overhaul and Kent's crew worked so hard that the old cruiser exceeded her designed horsepower, reaching 25 knots, being forced to burn all available wood on board and causing the whole ship to vibrate violently.

By 1700 the range was down to 12,000 yards and Nürnberg opened fire with the by now expected superb accuracy. When Kent returned fire ten minutes later her shells fell short. Once the range had fallen to 7,000 yards both sides started to score regular hits and Nürnberg gave up her escape attempt and turned to bring her broadside to action.

By 1730 the range was down to 3,000 yards and Kent's heavier shells and thicker armour gave her the upper hand. An hour later, just as bad weather arrived which may have saved her, two of Nürnberg's boilers exploded, reducing her speed. Kent was now able to easily outmanoeuvre her opponent and within half an hour Nürnberg was dead in the water, at 1926 she rolled over to starboard and sank with only twelve survivors.
Kent had received thirty eight hits but only sixteen casualties.

Whilst these battles had gone on Bristol and Macedonia had sunk Spee's colliers Baden and Santa Isabel, the other collier, Seydlitz escaped, eventually being interned in Argentina.

Sturdee searched for the Dresden before returning to the UK with the battlecruisers. There was some criticism (mainly from the 1st Sea Lord Fisher) of him for letting Dresden escape and for the heavy ammunition expenditure of his battlecruisers (Invincible 513 12 inch rounds, Inflexible 661 12 inch rounds fired) but generally his clear victory was welcomed. He had destroyed Spee's squadron without any serious damage to any of his ships and their shooting (c.6.5%) was considerably better than was managed by British (and German) battlecruisers at Dogger Bank and Jutland.

The hunt for the Dresden took months as she made her way into the Pacific pursued by British cruisers. They eventually caught up with her at Mas a Tierra on March 13 by Glasgow, Kent and the armed merchant cruiser Orama. Glasgow had escaped from Dresden at Coronel, Dresden evaded Glasgow at the Falklands but it was Glasgow and Captain Luce who were to be final victors.

Glasgow infringed Chilean neutrality by opening fire on Dresden whilst she was anchored in Chilean waters. After five minutes Dresden was heavily hit and surrendered. Whilst surrender talks were going on the Germans abandoned ship and scuttling charges detonated her magazine, ending the last of Spee's squadron. Dresden suffered eight killed and sixteen wounded.

The German Warships
SMS Gneisenau - lost
http://i.imgur.com/C4nbPbQ.jpg
SMS Scharnhorst - lost
http://i.imgur.com/71iChk5.jpg
SMS Dresden - escaped but later found and sunk
http://i.imgur.com/MhvmHjs.jpg
SMS Danzig, sister-ship to SMS Leipzig - lost
http://i.imgur.com/2ks7Rf3.jpg
SMS Nürnberg - lost
http://i.imgur.com/1xw53Pj.jpg

Battlecruisers
HMS Inflexible
http://i.imgur.com/VBTFXom.jpg
HMS Invincible
http://i.imgur.com/q5Ogan1.jpg
HMS Carnarvon
http://i.imgur.com/GZwkGUj.jpg
HMS Kent
http://i.imgur.com/37XGGc9.jpg
HMS Cornwall
http://i.imgur.com/uWcrcCF.jpg
HMS Glasgow
http://i.imgur.com/4BKfC2D.jpg
HMS Canopus, battleship
http://i.imgur.com/9xU8h5W.jpg
HMS Bristol, light cruiser
http://i.imgur.com/TrQ1uaJ.jpg

http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/falkland.html
http://www.naval-history.net/WW1Battle1412Falklands.htm

Catfish

12-08-14, 01:03 PM

Thanks for the Emden and Dresden texts.
Regarding 'alternative' and Emden, this is more or less what my grandfather told us, about the incident. He did not blame the enemy in any respect.

Jimbuna

12-08-14, 02:20 PM

Thanks for the Emden and Dresden texts.
Regarding 'alternative' and Emden, this is more or less what my grandfather told us, about the incident. He did not blame the enemy in any respect.

You are most welcome, it is heartening to know that there are community members out there who take the time and have the interest to read the posts :sunny:

Catfish

12-08-14, 02:31 PM

Thanks, i had written two pages, but lost the text because was somehow logged out in the meantime :-?. My family has a strong maritime tradition, at least on the mother's side

There also was a recent german film about the Emden and v. Muecke and crew, but emphasis on their long way home. Was better than i thought ..
But the sinking only shown at the beginning, and very short.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6m6eerjDIw

Jimbuna

12-08-14, 04:07 PM

Clip looked good and I noticed the Ayesha at the end but one minor criticism, Emden didn't sink in open water, she was run aground.

Ten penalty points against the director :03:

Aktungbby

03-08-15, 01:17 PM

Just came across these recently discoved photos now on display in Ireland. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/11238280/Unseen-WW1-photographs-by-Irish-Rifleman-uncovered.html?frame=3110134 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/11238280/Unseen-WW1-photographs-by-Irish-Rifleman-uncovered.html?frame=3110134) http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03110/ww1-germans_3110172k.jpgPhotograph taken during the Battle of the Somme: One of three photographs taken by George Hackney during the advance of the 36th Ulster Division on 1 July 1916. In the foreground we can see German soldiers surrendering as the 36th Ulster Division advanced upon German lines. http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03110/ww1-george-hackney_3110209k.jpgA photograph of George Hackney, taken at Poulainville, Picardy, Northern France, October 1915. Hackney was made a Lance Corporal the day before the Battalion left for France, along with his friend John Ewing. Before advancing to the Front, the men were billeted in a barn in the village of Poulainville. Hackney took his camera with him. The photographs were discovered in the Ulster Museum archive after being bequeathed following the death of George Hackney in 1977. :salute:

Sailor Steve

04-01-15, 02:00 PM

Some background to the Roland Garros story:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2302882#post2302882

Eugène Adrien Roland Georges Garros made a name for himself flying Bleriot monoplanes in several air races in 1911. In September of that year he set a new altitude record of 5,610 meters (19,410 feet). On September 23, 1912 Garros became the first man to fly across the Mediterranean Sea, leaving Frejus at St. Raphael at 0545 and arriving in Bizerte, Tunisia at 13:45, a distance of 453 miles.

When war was declared Garros was giving demonstration flights in Germany. He convinced his mostly German ground crew to help him take off after dark, when the plane was not guarded. One version of the story has him pretending to be drunk.

On July 15, 1913 Swiss-born Franz Schneider, lead designer for the German Luftverkersgesellschaft (LVG) company was issued the first patent for a machine gun interrupter gear, designed to let the gun fire through the propeller. Details of this design were published in the September 1914 issue of Flugsport magazine.

Raymond Saulnier of the Morane-Saulnier company in France took out a similar patent in April 1914.

There are also stories of a pair of brothers in England, named Edwards, but no source seems to supply their first names or a copy of the patent.

In all cases the main failure was the unsuitability of the gun involved.

A Russian Lieutenant named Poplavko came up with a synchronizer that equipped Sikorsky's S.VIX fighter.

In March 1915 Roland Garros and his personal mechanic Jules Hue visited Raymond Saulnier in Paris. There are sources which claim that Garros and Hue were responsible for what followed, but there is some evidence that Saulnier had already given up on the interrupter/synchronizer and was already experimenting with steel deflector plates. Whatever the truth, the three of them worked together to create such a system and by April Garros was ready to try it out.

Sailor Steve

04-05-15, 08:08 PM

I've just finished watching the '1915 Spring Offensive' episode of the BBC's The Great War series. If you haven't seen this show yet I strongly recommend it. This episode has some great movie footage as well as photographs of heavy trucks pulling heavy cannons through the mud, soldiers from both sides enlarging trenches, even motion pictures of Russian soldiers being fed by the Germans after surrendering. Also there are several old British soldiers describing the first gas attacks. It's a real eye-opener.

Sailor Steve

04-18-15, 11:39 AM

"A member of the German Bahnschutzwache, or Railway Protection Guard, shoots down the well-known French airman Roland Garros in his flight over German positions in Flanders, France, on a bombing raid."

I've tracked this statement through several websites, which was easy because they all quote it verbatim. What I haven't found is who wrote it first, or any corroborating original document. it seems to be one of those internet things that gets copied from place to place without anyone ever checking it.

There are a couple of sources that say Garros was brought down by ground fire, but others simply say that a clogged fuel line was the culprit. Whatever the cause, the Morane parasol fell into the hands of Idflieg, who then invited all the major manufacturers to copy or improve upon Garros' deflector plate system. It was eventually the Fokker corporation who came up with the first working interrupter gear, applying them to their existing M.5 monoplanes to create the legendary eindekkers.

More on this here and in the '100 Years' thread when the time comes.

Aktungbby

04-18-15, 12:24 PM

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/battles/second-ypres-1915/prelude/garros-captured.htm (http://www.greatwar.co.uk/battles/second-ypres-1915/prelude/garros-captured.htm)
A report of the incident on 18th April was written by the leader of the Bahnschutzwache unit, Feldwebelleutnant Schlendstedt, and published in the Bulletin of the German 4th Army: “At about 7 o'clock in the evening of 18 April two enemy aircraft, flying very high, appeared over the area between Sainte-Katherine and Lendelede. One was shot at by one of our Ballonabwehrkanone and he disappeared in the direction of Menin. The other flew away over Lendelede in a north-easterly direction. At that moment we saw a southbound train approaching on the railway line Ingelmunster-Kortrijk. Suddenly the plane went into a steep dive of about 60 degrees from a height of about 2,000 metres to about 40 metres from the ground. He flew over the train in a loop and as he rose up into the sky again with his wings almost vertical, he threw a bomb at the train. Fortunately it missed the target and there was no damage. The bomb landed about 40 metres east of the track and blew a crater about one metre deep and two metres in diameter. The driver of the locomotive brought the train to a stop.
As the plane had swooped down over the train the Bahnschutzwache troops had fired on it following my order to open fire. We shot at him from a distance of only 100 metres as he flew past. After he had thrown his bomb at the train he tried to escape, switching his engine on again and climbing to about 700 metres through the shots fired by our troops. But suddenly the plane began to sway about in the sky, the engine fell silent, and the pilot began to glide the plane down in the direction of Hulste.
I immediately got on on my bicycle and set off to chase the plane, accompanied by some of the men from my unit on foot. As soon as the plane landed the pilot set it on fire and ran to a farmhouse in Hulst. I was the first to arrive at the scene of the burning plane. Several others soon joined me and my men, including some dragoons from a Württemberger cavalry brigade, as we searched for the airman in Hulste.” (1) In some accounts this includes the statement: "on my order to shoot' At any rate it's a detailed officer's eye-witness account-to give it verisimilitude, and pretty well settles the matter IMHO. A bullet probably hit a fuel line and Garros had a better day than Von Richthofen or Mannock- also hit fatally by ground fire. At least as good as Forstner's description of the sea dragon! :shifty: http://www.greatwar.co.uk/battles/second-ypres-1915/images/1914-Morane-Saulnier-Scout.jpg

Catfish

04-18-15, 01:48 PM

^ thanks for posting :)

Garros, after spending 3 years as a POW, was then able to flee to Belgium, and from there to France. After some flying hours, he rejoined the french air force and shot down at least one more german plane. He settled into Escadrille 26 to pilot a Spad, and claimed two victories on 2 October 1918, one of which was confirmed. On 5 October 1918, he was shot down and killed near Vouziers, a month before the end of the war and one day before his 30th birthday.

regarding Forstner .. i like Mosasaurs and their relatives .. but we should probably call this "dichterische Freiheit", to avoid harsher words :03:
Although .. one cannot be 100 percent sure :hmmm:

Sailor Steve

04-18-15, 03:00 PM

http://www.greatwar.co.uk/battles/second-ypres-1915/prelude/garros-captured.htm (http://www.greatwar.co.uk/battles/second-ypres-1915/prelude/garros-captured.htm)
Very nice, and a seemingly valid account. The site itself however, has two glaring mistakes. The picture they have, as copied by yourself, is not the Morane L as cited but rather a Morane N. Second, they have this comment:
Within a few hours of his forced landing on 18th April by the German 4th Army, as described above, the machine-gun firing device and the Morane's propellor were sent to the Fokker aircraft factory in Germany.
This is emphatically not true. In his autobiography Flying Dutchman Fokker himself claims that the Morane was handed directly to him, and he took a machine gun home with him and designed and built a synchronizer gear in just 48 hours. Idflieg's Deputy Director Major Helmut Förster, in his article 'Die Entwicklung der Fliegerei im Weltkriege' (Walter von Eberhardt, Unsere Luftstreitkrafte, 1930), wrote that Idflieg showed the Morane to pretty much every major German aircraft manufacturer, including LVG and Albatros. It would seem that Fokker engineers had already developed a working synchronizer gear but had no opportunity to test it. Once the device was installed and proven Franz Schneider of LVG would sue Fokker, since the latter's gear was taken directly from Schneider's original 1913 patent. Fokker refused to pay the fine, even when ordered by a court to do so on 1926. In 1933 Schneider again tried to sue Fokker but this time the courts rejected the lawsuit.

At any rate, thanks for finding that account. It helps clear things up a bit.

Aktungbby

04-18-15, 08:02 PM

^ thanks for posting :)

regarding Forstner .. i like Mosasaurs and their relatives .. but we should probably call this "dichterische Freiheit", to avoid harsher words :03:
Although .. one cannot be 100 percent sure :hmmm:
NO WAY MAN! A Uboat kaleun asea (with six officers on the con with him) sees what he sees and that's IT BBY! http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2302055#post2302055 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2302055#post2302055) http://i2.wp.com/americanmonsters.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/U-28_monster_etching1-300x178.jpg?resize=300%2C178 (http://i1.wp.com/americanmonsters.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/U-28_monster_etching1.jpg)
Very nice, and a seemingly valid account. The site itself however, has two glaring mistakes. The picture they have, as copied by yourself, is not the Morane L as cited but rather a Morane N.
At any rate, thanks for finding that account. It helps clear things up a bit. Your welcome! A little too BLUE TO B TRUE!:D The account lists interesting maneuvers by the Garros plane: an almost vertical climb-to throw the bomb; a loop; and an engine restart and an 'escape climb' through gunfire to 700 meters (from 40 meters) Very detailed-lending to credibility- and accurate enough to indicate not a carburetor induced engine quit. Mauser fire or a machine gun? at a range of 'only 100 meters' is pretty point blank. No doubt the officer saw it all from a good vantagepoint...:smug: I doubt M. Garros was paying attention to details just then:|\\
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/30/article-2643834-1E54AC7B00000578-245_306x423.jpg

Aktungbby

04-20-15, 04:33 PM

I have flown my Morane twice. It is a most comic affair, but I think I shall like it when I get more used to it. Sometimes, flying a moraine is a terminal affair: As with the famous disappearance of 1947's StarDust Avro Lancaster which was gone for 50 years until remnants...and remains turned up in the Andes glaciers's 'terminal moraine':timeout: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/31/Stardust_Wheel_Wreckage.png/220px-Stardust_Wheel_Wreckage.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stardust_Wheel_Wreckage.png) 90% of the aircraft is still in the glacier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_BSAA_Avro_Lancastrian_Star_Dust_accident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_BSAA_Avro_Lancastrian_Star_Dust_accident)

Jimbuna

04-25-15, 04:54 AM

GALLIPOLI

Following the entry of the Ottoman Empire into World War I, First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill developed a plan for attacking the Dardanelles. Using the ships of the Royal Navy, Churchill believed, partially due to faulty intelligence, that the straits could be forced, opening the way for a direct assault on Constantinople. This plan was approved and several of the Royal Navy's older battleships were transferred to the Mediterranean. Operations against the Dardanelles began on February 19, 1915, with British ships under Admiral Sir Sackville Carden bombarding Turkish defenses with little effect.A second attack was made on the 25th which succeeded in forcing the Turks to fall back to their second line of defenses. Entering the straits British warships engaged the Turks again on March 1, however their minesweepers were prevented from clearing the channel due to heavy fire. Another attempt to remove the mines failed on the 13th, leading Carden to resign.
His replacement, Rear Admiral John de Robeck, launched a massive assault on Turkish defenses on the 18th. This failed and resulted in the sinking of two old British and one French battleship after they struck mines.With the failure of the naval campaign, it became clear to Allied leaders that a ground force was going to be needed to eliminate the Turkish artillery on the Gallipoli Peninsula which commanded the straits. This mission was delegated to General Sir Ian Hamilton and the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force. This command included the newly formed Australia and New Zealand Army Corps (ANZAC), the 29th Division, the Royal Naval Division, and the French Oriental Expeditionary Corps. Security for the operation was lax and the Turks spent six weeks preparing for the anticipated assault.Opposing the Allies was the Turkish 5th Army commanded by General Otto Liman von Sanders, the German advisor to the Ottoman army. Hamilton's plan called for landings at Cape Helles, near the tip of the peninsula, with the ANZACs landing further up the Aegean coast just north of Gaba Tepe. While the 29th Division was to advance north to take the forts along the straits, the ANZACs were to cut across the peninsula to prevent the retreat or reinforcement of the Turkish defenders. The first landings began on April 25, 1915, and were badly mismanaged.Meeting stiff resistance at Cape Helles, British troops took heavy casualties as they landed and after heavy fighting were finally able to overwhelm the defenders. To the north, the ANZACs faired slightly better though they missed their intended landing beaches by about a mile. Pushing inland from "Anzac Cove," they were able to gain a shallow foothold. Two days later, Turkish troops under Mustafa Kemal attempted to drive the ANZACs back into the sea, but were defeated by tenacious defending and naval gunfire. At Helles, Hamilton, now supported by French troops, pushed north towards the village of Krithia.Attacking on April 28, Hamilton's men were unable to take the village. With his advance stalled in the face of determined resistance, the front began to mirror the trench warfare of France. Another attempt was made to take Krithia on May 6. Pushing hard, Allied forces only gained a quarter mile while suffering heavy casualties. At Anzac Cove, Kemal launched a massive counterattack on May 19. Unable to throw the ANZACs back, he suffered over 10,000 casualties in the attempt. On June 4, a final attempt was made against Krithia with no success.After a limited victory at Gully Ravine in late June, Hamilton accepted that the Helles front had become a stalemate. Seeking to move around the Turkish lines, Hamilton re-embarked two divisions and had them landed at Sulva Bay, just north of Anzac Cove, on August 6. This was supported by diversionary attacks at Anzac and Helles. Coming ashore, Lt. General Sir Frederick Stopford's men moved too slowly and the Turks were able to occupy the heights overlooking their position. As a result, the British troops were quickly locked into their beachhead. In the supporting action to the south, the ANZACs were able to win a rare victory at Lone Pine, though their main assaults on Chunuk Bair and Hill 971 failed.On August 21, Hamilton attempted to revive the offensive at Sulva Bay with attacks on Scimitar Hill and Hill 60. Fighting in brutal heat, these were beaten off and by the 29th the battle had ended. With the failure of Hamilton's August Offensive, fighting calmed as British leaders debated the future of the campaign. In October, Hamilton was replaced by Lt. General Sir Charles Monro. After reviewing his command, and influenced by the entry of Bulgaria into the war on the side of the Central Powers, Monro recommended evacuating Gallipoli. Following a visit from Secretary of State for War Lord Kitchener, Monro's evacuation plan war approved. Beginning on December 7, troop levels were drawn down with those at Sulva Bay and Anzac Cove departing first. The last Allied forces departed Gallipoli on January 9, 1916, when the final troops embarked at Helles.

Aftermath

The Gallipoli Campaign cost the Allies 141,113 killed and wounded and the Turks 195,000. Gallipoli proved to be the Turks' greatest victory of the war. In London, the campaign's failure led to the demotion of Winston Churchill and contributed to the collapse of Prime Minister H. H. Asquith's government. The fighting at Gallipoli proved a galvanizing national experience for Australia and New Zealand, which had not previously fought in a major conflict. As a result, the anniversary of the landings, April 25, is celebrated as ANZAC Day and is both nations' most significant day of military remembrance.
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwari/p/gallipoli.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zyj4kqt#zswc9j6

http://i.imgur.com/nA5gjqI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/idwgedJ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fjheeOT.jpg

Sailor Steve

04-25-15, 11:39 AM

Gallipoli tie-in: These Australian and New Zealand soldiers are the same ones who came here on the First Anzac Convoy. That's the one which was delayed because of the attacks in the Indian Ocean by SMS Emden. That delay meant that the convoy was only fifty miles away when Emden attacked the radio station at the Cocos Islands on November 9th, which led to HMAS Sydney stopping Emden.

These same men have been training in Egypt for this very invasion ever since.

Oberon

04-25-15, 02:39 PM

Seeking to move around the Turkish lines, Hamilton re-embarked two divisions and had them landed at Sulva Bay, just north of Anzac Cove, on August 6. This was supported by diversionary attacks at Anzac and Helles. Coming ashore, Lt. General Sir Frederick Stopford's men moved too slowly and the Turks were able to occupy the heights overlooking their position. As a result, the British troops were quickly locked into their beachhead. In the supporting action to the south, the ANZACs were able to win a rare victory at Lone Pine, though their main assaults on Chunuk Bair and Hill 971 failed.

This was the action my great-grandfather was involved in, he was in one of the two divisions (The 5th (Service) Wiltshire Regiment) which was transferred from Cape Helles to Sulva Bay.
The situation around Chunuk Bair was a confused mess, the New Zealand troops initially captured Chunuk Bair and Brigadier General Anthony Baldwin moved forward with several brigades (including the Wiltshire Regiment) to a position known as 'the farm'.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Chunuk_Bair_positions_9th_August_1915.jpg

Things started falling apart when Baldwins men were unable to locate the farm in the dark, while Colonel Malone and the New Zealand brigade were not only harrassed by the Ottomans but also shelled by their own side repeatedly (Malone himself was killed by a misdirected shell on the 8th).
On the night of the 9th, the New Zealand force was finally relieved by some of the Wiltshires and the 6th Battalion of The Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. The Wiltshires were told by the New Zealand officer who escorted them to their position that it was a safe spot, and as such they began digging their dugouts and stacked their rifles and equipment out of the way in order to remain comfortable...not expecting action.

The Wiltshire Regiments war diary describes the morning of the 10th August 1915:

(01.00): Battalion moves away in single file less D company and part of B Company. Order of march C - Machine guns - A - B companies "Move by a steep and winding course to a cup-shaped deformation at the head of the Gulley to the right and some distance in front of our salient." (Words of 2 Lieut R.W.M. Dewhurst one of the few officers on the march who subsequently survived.) The Battalion was guided, as far as I am able to ascertain by a New Zealand Officer. Here they arrived two hours before sunrise (0300) and the men were told to dig into dugouts and make themselves comfortable as the position was quite safe. Men therefore removed equipment and rifles.
(0430) As soon as it was light machine guns opened on the men lying in their dug outs. About 1/4 of an hour later there was a rush of Turks from both sides of the depression which drove the men, unarmed and unequipped down the gulley (SALZLI BEIT). The bottom of the gulley commanded by machine guns and so escape was cut off. Three courses were possible:-

1. To rush past the machine guns down the Sazli Beit, this was tried but in nearly all cases proved fatal.
2. To climb the northern slope of the ravine under fire and try to escape over the top. This was done in a few cases
with success.
3. Hide in Gulley till night; this also was done with more success. (A party of 5 men was rescued from the Gulley
having been there 16 days from August 10th to August 26th. They reported numbers of men, who were wounded,
unable to get away and died of exhaustion and starvation.).

Parties arrived on the Beach in fours, fives, and some carried bodies during the 11th, 12th and 13th unarmed, unequipped and demoralised.

I have fair reason to believe that my Great-Grandfather was one of the five men who were rescued from the Gulley on the 26th August. The evidence is thus:

http://i.imgur.com/uTS7HXE.jpg?1

You'll note that the Date of Admission on the left is the 26th August, but the date of the wound on the right is the 10th. He and the rest of the men in the Gulley owe their lives to three people who would be awarded the DCM for their actions.

9213 Pte WJ Head.
For conspicuous bravery and resource. Private Head was one of a party of seven, who became seperated from their regiment during the fighting on the 10th August 1915 at Chunuk Bair and who remained within the enemy's lines for over fifteeen days . Although wounded three times between 10th and 26th of August , he collected food for his wounded comrades from the bodies of the dead, this being the sole and very slender supply. He displayed the finest qualities of endurance and leadership in keeping up the spirits of the survivors in most trying conditions. (LG 16.11.15)

9416 Pte R Humphries
For conspicuous gallantry between the 10th and 26th August 1915, ay Chunuk Bair . Private Humphries was one of a party who were lost outside our lines for over a fortnight, at the end of which time, although greatly exhausted and weakened by privation , he, with the greatest bravery , made his way in, and so brought about the rescue of his comrades, In the course of his return he was constantly exposed to heavy fire, and only succeeded with the utmost difficulty. He did not hesitate at once to return and act as a guide to the relieving party. (LG 16.11.15)

11574 L/Cpl AG Scott
For conspicuous gallantry between the 10th and 26th August 1915, ay Chunuk Bair . Lance-Corporal Scott was one of a party who were lost outside our lines for over a fortnight, at the end of which time, although greatly exhausted and weakened by privation , he, with the greatest bravery , made his way in, and so brought about the rescue of his comrades, In the course of his return he was constantly exposed to heavy fire, and only succeeded with the utmost difficulty. He did not hesitate at once to return and act as a guide to the relieving party. (LG 16.11.15)

Such was the dismemberment of the Wiltshires that it took a while to reform, as noted in the diary of the 25th:

This Diary of the fortunes of the 5th (Service) Battalion. 5th Wiltshire Regiment is continued by H.B.L Braund, Lieut and Acting Adjutant since Capt A.C.S. Belcher, Adj. Killed in action 10.8.15 Owing to the events to be detailed herein there has been a considerable hiatus in the compilation of this diary due to the temporary disorganisation of the Regiment and the incompleteness of the narrative will be due to this cause. H.B.L Braund Lieut 5th Wilts 25.8.15. Two men L/C Scott. Pte A Humphries arrive in hospital having escaped from Sazli Beit after 16 days confinement, almost without food. Immediate organisation of search party under Capt Greany - unsuccessful on night of 25th - successful on night of 26th. Men discovered in an exhausted condition, two badly wounded. Congratulation from General.

But reform it did, and continued in occasional action in Gallipoli until the withdrawal of forces, where it was sent to Egypt and then on to Mesopotamia.

My Great-Grandfather left the 5th Wiltshires after his time spent in Aldernay hospital back in England, he joined the 6th Wiltshires in January 1916 where he would stay until being wounded on the 3rd July 1916 during the attack of La Boisselle in the Battle of the Somme.
This put him out of action until March the next year when he joined the 1st Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment, winning the Military Medal for action between the 7th and 10th of July 1917 during the assault on Messines Ridge where he, to quote the London Gazette, "acting as orderly, shewed the greatest devotion to duty in carrying messages backwards and forwards from an advanced position. On one occasion although buried and stunned by a shell, he brought back a message of great importance", however on the 21st August 1917, the now Corporal Edward Clack was badly wounded, quite possibly during an aerial attack on the 1st Wiltshires as they camped at the Dominion Camp, and he was sent back to England to recover and finally join the 3rd Wiltshires, the reserve battalion which had spent the war in the Home Islands. Here he remained until the end of hostilities, being demobbed as Acting Lance Sergeant in March 1919.

Downunderjock

04-27-15, 01:18 AM

To start things off I found an interesting article on the BBC a few months back that tried to debunk some of the most common myths about the Great War. I'm sure some of them can be cannon fodder for...debate.:D

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25776836

1. It was the bloodiest war in history to that point. The 1850-1864 Taiping Rebellion in China killed more.

2. Most soldiers died. For British soldiers it was 11.5%, less than during the Crimean War.

3. Men lived in the trenches for years on end. More like 10 days a month and three in a row at the front line tops.

4. The upper class got off lightly. The death rate was 12% of soldiers, 17% of officers. Eton lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served.

5. 'Lions led by donkeys'. Over 200 generals killed, injured or captured and a unique type of war was won organizing a multinational force.

6. Gallipoli was fought by Australians and New Zealanders. British losses were higher than both Australian and NZ and the French lost more than the Australians.

7. Tactics on the Western Front remained unchanged despite repeated failure. There were significant equipment and tactical changes during the war, from planes to helmets.

8. No-one won. Germany surrendered before the country was crushed as it would be in WWII. It was still a loss to Germany.

9. The Versailles Treaty was extremely harsh. Germany was still the biggest and richest country in Europe and much of the reparations went unenforced. It was not as harsh as after WWII.

10. Everyone hated it. Those not on the front line often had better food, more money and more freedom than at home.

To Dread Knot and others.

You are correct about us, Aussie's and Kiwis losses at Gallipoli was not as great as the Brits, French and even the Turks.

We where not exactly, under Generals, from our only country, and wrong beach, among other things.

Just, as the Brits, had a similar problems.
Like guess where the generals were, far out to sea on ships.

If, I may ask you and others to read my Thread/ Posts under the heading ANZAC DAY. and tell me, if you like your thoughts.

Maybe, for us it hurt just as much, esp when you consider the families, of the fallen and wounded, could not travel, to such a place, so easily, as per distance. (same for Europe.)

Their is a book called "Distant Grief" that talks of the work of the newly formed CWGC, and it's work as time went on. You all might like to have a read.

This book, not only looked at what, the CWGC was doing or did, but it also, looked from the point of view of Australian and possibly, Kiwi families, Govts, via letters or newspaper articles, to and from the newly appointed, CWGC.

We here in OZ, even back in WW1, via letters from families, wanted the lads, to be brought home, for proper burial. (I gather the same, for most of the Allies and even the Germans, too. etc.)

However, as I kinda knew and the book, talks of the reasons, for it not to be possible. We may be able to do that now days, but back in WW1 and WW2, there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong, mid travel by sea, etc.

As an example, the "Battle of Krithia" in Gallipoli, after a 60 minutes show about, why all Govts, won't even look, at where the fallen, might be buried.
Let alone, place a formal memorial, to honour them all. (Turks, too.)

Some feel, they should be brought back home. even after nye 100 years on.

Like the Fromelles, lads, they where reburied, now with proper headstone, etc. not brought home.

(just like we have some lads, who actually have headstones, in a grave at a cemetery well looked after, who fell in the Vietnam war, some in Malaysia, one in Singapore CWG.)

However, for both these groups, one war historian, (I think an Australian.) feels, and some agree. That for both groups, the WW1 lads and these Vietnam lads, should remain where they are resting, at least they are with their mates, and other allied friends. (even their foe.)

And I hate, to say this, but I think the same way. No disrespect to descendants, etc. The Viet lads, are at least resting in a proper grave etc.

Those of the WW1 group, maybe one day, they too, might have like they did for the Fromelles lads.

So, if you get the chance to get hole of this book, I might be a grown man of 49+, but I can tell you, it left a tear in my eye.

Jimbuna

05-07-15, 05:39 AM

Sinking of the Lusitania

On February 4, 1915, the German government declared the seas around the British Isles to be a war zone and that beginning February 18, Allied ships in the area would be sunk without warning. As Lusitania was scheduled to reach Liverpool on March 6, the Admiralty provided Captain Daniel Dow with instructions on how to avoid submarines. With the liner approaching, two destroyers were dispatched to escort Lusitania into port. Unsure whether the approaching warships were British or German, Dow eluded them and reached Liverpool on his own.

The following month, Lusitania departed for New York on April 17, with Captain William Thomas Turner in command. The commodore of the Cunard fleet, Turner was an experienced mariner and reached New York on the 24th. During this time, several concerned German-American citizens approached the German embassy in an effort to avoid controversy should the liner be attacked by a u-boat. Taking their concerns to heart, the embassy placed ads in fifty American newspapers on April 22 warning that neutral travelers aboard British-flagged vessels en route to the war zone sailed at their own risk.

Usually printed next to Lusitania's sailing announcement, the German warning caused some agitation in the press and concern among the ship's passengers. Citing that the ship's speed made it nearly invulnerable to attack, Turner and his officers worked to calm those aboard. Sailing on May 1 as scheduled, Lusitania departed Pier 54 and began its return voyage. While the liner was crossing the Atlantic, U-20, commanded by Captain Lieutenant Walther Schwieger, was operating off the west and south coasts of Ireland. Between May 5 and 6, Schwieger sank three merchant vessels.

His activity led the Admiralty, who was tracking his movements via intercepts, to issue submarine warnings for the south coast of Ireland. Turner twice received this message on May 6 and took several precautions including closing watertight doors, swinging out the lifeboats, doubling the lookouts, and blacking out the ship. Trusting the ship's speed, he did not begin following a zi-zag course as recommended by the Admiralty. Upon receiving another warning around 11:00 AM on May 7, he turned northeast towards the coast, incorrectly believing that submarines would likely keep to the open sea.

Possessing only three torpedoes and low on fuel, Schwieger had decided to return to base when a vessel was spotted around 1:00 PM. Diving, U-20 moved to investigate. Encountering fog, Turner slowed to 18 knots as the liner steered for Queenstown (Cosh), Ireland. As Lusitania crossed his bow, Schwieger opened fire at 2:10 PM. His torpedo hit the liner below the bridge on the starboard side. It was quickly followed by a second explosion in the starboard bow. While many theories have been put forward, the second was most likely caused by an internal steam explosion.

http://i.imgur.com/CcjCsgw.jpg

Immediately sending an SOS, Turner tried steering the ship towards the coast with the goal of beaching it, but the steering failed to respond. Listing at 15 degrees, the engines pushed the ship forward, driving more water into the hull. Six minutes after the hit, the bow slipped under the water, which along with the increasingly list, severely hampered efforts to launch the lifeboats. As chaos swept the liner's decks, many lifeboats were lost due to the ship's speed or spilled their passengers as they were lowered. Around 2:28, eighteen minutes after the torpedo hit, Lusitania slipped beneath the waves approximately eight miles off the Old Head of Kinsale.

http://i.imgur.com/DW7UBRT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/UGPsk9D.jpg

Aftermath:

The sinking claimed the lives of 1,198 of Lusitania's passengers and crew, with only 761 surviving. Among the dead were 128 American citizens. Immediately inciting international outrage, the sinking quickly turned public opinion against Germany and its allies. The German government attempted to justify the sinking by stating that Lusitania was classified as an auxiliary cruiser and was carrying military cargo. They were technically correct on both counts, as Lusitania was under orders to ram u-boats and its cargo included a shipment of bullets, 3-inch shells, and fuses.

Outraged at the death of American citizens, many in the United States called for President Woodrow Wilson to declare war on Germany. While encouraged by the British, Wilson refused and urged restraint. Issuing three diplomatic notes in May, June, and July, Wilson affirmed the rights of US citizens to travel safely at sea and warned that future sinkings would be viewed as "deliberately unfriendly." Following the sinking of the liner SS Arabic in August, American pressure bore fruit as the Germans offered an indemnity and issued orders prohibiting their commanders from surprise attacks on merchant vessels. That September, the Germans halted their campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare. Its resumption, along with other provocative acts such as the Zimmermann Telegram, would ultimately pull the United States into the conflict.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwar1/p/lusitania.htm

Aktungbby

05-07-15, 11:55 AM

Fifteen minutes after he had fired his torpedo, Schwieger noted in his war diary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diary):
"It looks as if the ship will stay afloat only for a very short time. dive to 25 metres (82 ft) and leave the area seawards. I couldn't have fired another torpedo into this mass of humans desperately trying to save themselves." There was at the time and remains now a great controversy about the sinking, over whether Lusitania was smuggling contraband war material to England and over the number of torpedoes Schwieger fired.
Before he got back to the docks at Wilhelmshaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmshaven) for refuelling and resupply, the United States had formally protested to Berlin against the brutality of his action.
Kaiser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser)Wilhelm II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_II,_German_Emperor) wrote in the margins of the American note, "Utterly impertinent", "outrageous", and "this is the most insolent thing in tone and bearing that I have had to read since the Japanese note last August." Nevertheless, to keep America out of the war, in June the Kaiser was compelled to rescind unrestricted submarine warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_submarine_warfare) and require all passenger liners be left unmolested.
On 4 September 1915 Schwieger was back at sea with U-20, 85 nautical miles (157 km) off the Fastnet Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastnet_Rock) in the south Irish Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea). This rock held one of the key navigational markers in the western ocean, the Fastnet Lighthouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastnet_Lighthouse), and any ships passing in and out of the Irish Sea would be within visual contact of it.
RMS Hesperian (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RMS_Hesperian&action=edit&redlink=1) was now beginning a new run outward bound from Liverpool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool) to Quebec (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec) and Montreal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal), with a general cargo, also doubling as a hospital ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_ship), and carrying about 800 passengers. She was attacked off the Fastnet, a landmark islet in the north Atlantic, off the south-west coast of Ireland. The "Only a few days before, Count Bernsdorff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Heinrich_von_Bernstorff), the German Ambassador, had assured the United States government that passenger liners will not be sunk without warning and without ensuring the safety of the non combatants aboard providing that the liners do not try to escape or offer resistance."
This time, Schwieger was received with official disgust upon his return to Wilhelmshaven. Ordered to report to Berlin to explain himself, he was required to apologise for having sunk another passenger liner in defiance of a direct order not to do so again. He complained about his treatment in Berlin thereafter.
After his death in 1917, his submarine having struck a mine off the Frisian Islands, Schwieger was forgiven in Berlin. He received Germany's highest decoration, the Pour le Mérite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pour_le_M%C3%A9rite). At the time of his death, Schwieger had sunk 49 ships with 183,883 tons-with three submarines on 34 missions. He was the Sixth most successful commander of WWI.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-C1831%2C_Kapit%C3%A4nleutnant_Walther_Schwieger.jp g/220px-Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-C1831%2C_Kapit%C3%A4nleutnant_Walther_Schwieger.jp g (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_134-C1831,_Kapit%C3%A4nleutnant_Walther_Schwieger.jpg)[wiki] The Hesperian sank over a day after being torpedoed, on 6 September 1915, while being towed to Ireland. Thirty-two people were killed when a lifeboat upset while lowering. Hesperian was also carrying the body of Lusitania victim [I]Frances Stephens (http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/frances-stephens/) on her last voyage, with Mrs. Stephens being sunk twice by the same submarine and commander. The body of Mrs. Stephens was still aboard as well. Mrs. Stephens’ casket, presumably still in Hesperian‘s hold, now lies not far from the Lusitania wreck which took her life. http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/frances-stephens/ (http://www.rmslusitania.info/people/saloon/frances-stephens/) The Hesperian sank over a day after being torpedoed, on 6 September 1915, while being towed to Ireland. The survivors were rescued during the night by several wary British ships in the vicinity and taken to Ireland. One man who had been blinded on the Western Front had his sight restored by the shock of the explosion. A boy had been left behind, sleeping in his bunk, throughout the sinking. The ship’s watertight bulkheads kept the ship afloat; the vessel was evacuated in less than an hour. Only the captain and several officers had remained on board as a skeleton crew. Captain Main hoped to beach the Hesperian or have her towed to Queenstown. The ship never made it. On 6 September 1915, Hesperian succumbed to the waves, sinking some 37 miles from land and not far from the Lusitania wreck.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Fastnet_Rock_Lighthouse.jpg/220px-Fastnet_Rock_Lighthouse.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fastnet_Rock_Lighthouse.jpg)Fastnet Lighthouse: Both a beacon and a deathtrap. U-20's notorious hunting ground.

Sailor Steve

05-07-15, 11:18 PM

I've just finished watching Lusitania: Murder on the Atlantic (aka Sinking of the Lusitania: Terror at sea).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HOh1FRzLAM

I had not heard of this film until today, when I watched Iambecomelife's excellent tribute. Despite the lurid title, the made-for-TV movie is very even handed, telling the story from both sides fairly faithfully. There are quite a few anachronisms, but that has to be expected given the low budget involved.

The events are recreated well, and stick mostly to the known facts. I recommend it. :sunny:

Aktungbby

05-09-15, 02:49 AM

Strangely compelling reading discover'd while searching for [any] photo of the SS Queen Wilhelmina beached on the beach at Bondi-Carrs( see map- a naval graveyard it seems for several vessels) after being torpedoed by a U-boat http://www.fusilier.co.uk/north_east_northumberland_ww1_great_war_casualties/ww1_index.html (http://www.fusilier.co.uk/north_east_northumberland_ww1_great_war_casualties/ww1_index.html) http://www.fusilier.co.uk/thumbs/warkworth_parish2.jpghttp://uboat.net/media/wwi/ships_hit/4981.jpg Queen Wilhelmina , 3,590/1898, Furness, Withy & Co, Sunderland, London-reg, Mr E Dickinson, Leith for Fowey in ballast. Hit and damaged 20 miles S by E of Longstone, Outer Farne Is (L - 20 miles N by W of), beached at Bondicar, 1½m SSE of Amble (55.19N, 01.26W), total loss (+L/te/un/wi)http://cdn.trinityhouse.co.uk/images/cat_images/2765/f5908571c69bbb3773a66b9ff764b558.jpg?height=60&quality=80 Longstone lighthouse built 1828...a dreadful lonely place; It would appear that u-boats stalked prey near known navigation beacons such as this location or Fastnet as with the Lusitania.:hmmm:http://cdn.trinityhouse.co.uk/images/cat_images/2765/36bde23c2adf9c1bf1848fec11ca6592.jpg?width=630&quality=85"The island was a bleak situation to endure and the isolation must have been terrible, often storms were so bad as to drive the Lightkeeper's family into the upper rooms of the tower to seek refuge, the waves being so enormous that they covered the living quarters."

Oberon

05-09-15, 04:11 PM

Say what you will about Peter Jacksons films, but his enthusiasm for the First World War is unparalleled. I hope it will transfer to his Dambusters film whenever it is released.

His Gallipoli diorama:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11442988

HunterICX

05-12-15, 11:36 AM

Not sure if this has been posted already
this channel is doing a week by week report of what happened 100 years ago just like what Steve and Jim are doing in the ''100 years ago today'' day by day thread.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGreatWar/featured

Well worth the watch :yeah:

Oberon

05-12-15, 02:06 PM

Jimbuna

05-13-15, 07:06 AM

mapuc

05-13-15, 03:38 PM

yea a great link, I'm listening to several episode every evening. This to catch up.

Markus

Betonov

05-17-15, 01:08 AM

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11244905_875151932557414_5300798614040304615_n.jpg ?oh=d6ab8befddd57fb8e5155e47d584d0ed&oe=55D17DF6&__gda__=1442940572_133915636bc94375de4bced0814d28c 9

Aktungbby

05-17-15, 08:02 AM

^These two did it at Gettysburg in the Civil War...where WWI got invented IMHO: (trench warfare; balloon observation; use of troop trains; miserable- slaughter infantry tactics; huge land mines; POW death camps, breechloading repeater rifles and the revolving turret...too bad about the Gatling gun not actually being used! we fixed that in Iraq on 'Warthogs':hmmm: arguably a post-colonial WWI British SNAFU!!!http://www.brotherswar.com/12-03-03-BulletsCollide-Petersburg-01.JPG

Sailor Steve

07-16-15, 09:30 AM

One hundred years ago today U-19, commanded by Constantin Kolbe, attacked the Royal Navy trawler HMT Cameo. I have it recorded in the '100 Years' thread, but something about this strikes me as very odd. According to the dates given in www.uboat.net (http://www.uboat.net) this would be Kolbe's third and last war patrol in U-19, yet he commanded that boat for another eight months. It was his only attack during this patrol, and it was unsuccessful.

I've searched every source I can find, and none of my questions are answered. Why were there no more attacks on this patrol? Was the U-boat damaged in the attack? Why were there no more patrols in those eight months? None of it is really important, but I hate gaps in the information and unanswered questions.

Aktungbby

07-16-15, 10:36 AM

this would be Kolbe's third and last war patrol in U-19, yet he commanded that boat for another eight months. It was his only attack during this patrol, and it was unsuccessful.
Kolbe command of SM U-19 ended 3/15/1916 U-19 WAR ACTIVITY FROM VERBATIM ROMM 40 TANSCRIPTS:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/SM_U-19_001_Cruises.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SM_U-19_001_Cruises.jpg) The patrol from July 14-July 19 to Fair Island in the Shetlands encompasses the date of the trawler Cameo attack. Apparently Kolbe made three more patrols in September, October and November of 1915...not his last patrol aboard U-19 then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-19_(Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-19_(Germany)) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/U-Boote_Kiel_1914.jpg/300px-U-Boote_Kiel_1914.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U-Boote_Kiel_1914.jpg)U-19 second from right; https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/U-19_gun_Ward_Park_Bangor_right_view_geograph.org.uk _646194_8c3d0bd1-by-Ross.jpgU-19 deck gun now at Bangor Co Down WARD PARK http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=features&file=view&artid=4982 (http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=features&file=view&artid=4982) NOTE PLAQUE PHOTOS

Sailor Steve

07-16-15, 11:29 AM

That does help some, but it raises even more questions. This patrol only lasted five days, and that reference doesn't mention the attack on Cameo. It does list three more patrols for him in U-19, but it only gives specific dates for one. Given his previous success I'm even more confused over three patrols without even meeting an enemy ship. :-?

Sailor Steve

08-31-15, 01:48 PM

The Controversy:

The world's first ace, French pilot Adolphe Pègoud, was shot down and killed on August 31, 1915, while attacking a German two-seater. The pilot is variously listed as Walter Kandulski or Otto Kandulski, and the observer who did the shooting as Julius Bielitz, Bilitz or Pilitz. Supposedly Kandulski was shot down and killed some time later (dates vary from "two weeks later" to May 18, 1916), by French pilot Roger Paul Ronserail. Ronserail became famous as "Le Vengeur de Pègoud".

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Roger-Ronserails-p3154836_zps7wjny6it.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Roger-Ronserails-p3154836_zps7wjny6it.jpg.html)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Ronserail1_zpsqhj2zy8r.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Ronserail1_zpsqhj2zy8r.jpg.html)

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Ronserail2_zpszhlttx9g.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Ronserail2_zpszhlttx9g.jpg.html)

There is an ongoing controversy at The Aerodrome website involving the exact circumstances of Kandulski's death, with posters claiming to be the grandsons of Kandulski and Ronserail telling different stories. Kandulski's grandson says that his grandfather was Walter and that he survived the war. Ronserail's grandson says that the German pilot was Otto Kandulski, not Walter, and that he was indeed shot down and killed. One possible resolution is a post showing the discovery of a log book by Walter Kandulski with an entry stating that it was he who brought Pegoud down. This same poster says that he has searched the original German records and there is no listing for an Otto Kandulski at all.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43775
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38089&page=2

Ronserail's grandson also claims that his grandfather was an ace with seven victories, but the Aerodrome 'Aces' section doesn't list him at all, and I can find no record of a victory list for him.

Is it possible that the whole thing was fabricated by French newspapers? I hesitate to make that claim in the face of a man claiming to be descended from Ronserail, but it seems to be a possibility.

Oberon

08-31-15, 02:07 PM

Kandulski, one of them at least, was also Pegouds student pre-war, so I hear.

Sailor Steve

08-31-15, 02:15 PM

Kandulski, one of them at least, was also Pegouds student pre-war, so I hear.

So "they" say. :sunny:

Jimbuna

08-31-15, 02:17 PM

Kandulski, one of them at least, was also Pegouds student pre-war, so I hear.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2340913&postcount=1036

Adolphe Pégoud, French aviator & 1st fighter ace in history, is shot down and killed by his prewar German student.

Sailor Steve

01-17-16, 12:53 PM

January 17, 1916:

Air War:
English pilot Frederick Powell, flying FE.8 7457, shoots down an Aviatik 2-seater for kill number 3.
This was another interesting chase for me. I was confused by the statement in other sources that the first FE.8s didn't enter service until August 1916. It turned out that the two prototypes, 7456 and 7457, were being tested in December 1915. Number 7456 was wrecked in a crash, but eventually rebuilt, while 7457 was sent to No. 5 Squadron in France for testing. The squadron had several Vickers FB.5 Gunbuses on hand, one of which gave Powell his first two kills, but this was the first single-seat pusher any of them had ever seen. Powell was assigned 7457 as his regular aircraft, and liked it so much that at one point refused leave to prevent anyone else from flying "his" airplane.

So it happened that several kills were scored in an FE.8 several months before the plane was officially in service.

Catfish

01-24-16, 07:11 AM

Seems it struck a mine, perished with all hands. Has been identified as U 31 and will be left untouched, as a war grave..

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-35370700

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/21/wreck-found-off-norfolk-coast-identified-as-first-world-war-u-boat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lT3CZs7u9o

Jimbuna

01-24-16, 08:36 AM

That video footage shows her to be in pretty amazing condition.

May all who went down in her rest in peace.

~SALUTE~

Sailor Steve

02-27-16, 11:30 AM

On February 27th, 1916, Flight-Lieutenant Harold Rosher died in a flying accident at the Dover Aeroplane Station. Most of the letters he wrote to his parents while on duty have been quoted here over the past year.

Three days after the date of the last letter Harold was killed. On 27th February, Major Risk, the C.O. of the Dover Aeroplane Station being away on duty, Harold, as second in command, was in charge. Among his other duties he had to train new pilots on fast machines, and he would always personally test a new machine or a newly-repaired machine before allowing anybody else to try it. On that Sunday morning he ordered a number of machines to be brought out of the sheds for practice flights. Among them was one which had just been repaired after a mishap three weeks earlier. The pilot had already got into his machine. Harold told him to get out as the machine was untested, and himself took it up for a trial flight of eight or ten minutes. Everything seemed to go right until Harold began the descent about a mile away from the Aerodrome. Then, at a height of 300 feet or less, the machine suddenly made a nose-dive and crashed to the ground. Harold was killed instantly. The disaster occupied seven seconds. At the inquest nothing was ascertained as to the cause of the accident. One theory is that the controls jammed. Harold was buried on the 2nd of March at Charlton Cemetery, with full naval honors.

Harold was twenty-two when he died at work.
-With The Flying Squadron - from the introduction by Arnold Bennett

Praise for Harold Rosher from those who knew him:
"You have the consolation of knowing his splendid record at Dunkirk. He was among the finest pilots I ever had out there, always cheerful and ready for his work."
-Wing Commander Aurthur N. Longmore, R.N.

"Harold, or Rosh as we always used to call him, was one of my very best pals and a very fine officer and First Lieutenant. Every one loved him. He was an absolute 'Sahib', a very good pilot, hard-working, and absolutely trustworthy.
-Major Charles E. Risk, Squadron Commander

"He returned with some of the others from abroad last autumn, and very shortly afterwards I selected him from a large number of officers to become Executive Officer of the Dover Air Station, which was then starting. Although quite young, he immediately displayed great organising abilities, and also possessed the gift of command of men, which in unusual without previous training, and fully justified my selection. At his own request he was shortly proceeding abroad in command of a Flight, and would undoubtedly have gained his promotion in the near future. I have said little as regards his skill as a pilot, since this was probably well known to you, but he was undoubtedly in the first flight."
-Captain Charles L. Lamb

If you would like to read the whole book, it is in the public domain and available for download.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/books/With_the_Flying_Squadron_1000900064

Aktungbby

02-27-16, 12:16 PM

THIS DATE five years ago: Frank Woodruff Buckles (born Wood Buckles,https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Frank_Buckles_recruitment_picture.jpg/220px-Frank_Buckles_recruitment_picture.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frank_Buckles_recruitment_picture.jpg) died February 27, 2011-(age 110 and 26 days) was a United States Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) soldier and the last surviving American veteran of World War I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I). He enlisted in the U.S. Army in 1917 and served with a detachment from Fort Riley (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Riley), driving ambulances and motorcycles near the front lines in Europe. During World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II), he was captured by Japanese forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army) while working in the shipping business, and spent three years in the Philippines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines) as a civilian prisoner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Internee). He was down to 100lbs with beriberi; All of the captives were freed following a raid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_at_Los_Ba%C3%B1os) by Allied forces (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II) on February 23, 1945. After the war, Buckles married in San Francisco and moved to Gap View Farm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_View_Farm) near Charles Town, West Virginia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Town,_West_Virginia). A widower at age 98, he worked on his farm until the age of 105.:yeah:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Gates-Buckles.jpg/200px-Gates-Buckles.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gates-Buckles.jpg)<enlarges I should look this good at 108!):salute: "There was never a shortage of blown-up bodies that needed to be rushed to the nearest medical care. The British and French troops were in bad shape – even guys about my age looked old and tired. After three years of living and dying inside a dirt trench, you know the Brits and French were happy to see us "doughboys." Every last one of us Yanks believed we’d wrap this thing up in a month or two and head back home before harvest. In other words, we were the typical, cocky Americans no one wants around, until they need help winning a war." When asked the secret of long life, Buckles replied that being hopeful and not hurrying were key traits, adding: "When you start to die ... don't".:yep: In another interview, the centenarian talked about genetics, exercise, and a healthy diet, but put "the will to survive" above everything else. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c6/BucklesMarker.jpg/200px-BucklesMarker.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BucklesMarker.jpg)Upon Buckles' death on February 27, 2011, President Barack Obama ordered that the American flag be flown at half-staff on all government buildings, including the White House and U.S. embassies, on the day in March when Buckles would be buried at Arlington. Leading up to the March 15 funeral, the governors of 16 states likewise called for lowering their states' flags to half-staff. [wiki]

Catfish

04-04-16, 01:59 PM

4th April 1916

http://i.imgur.com/Ked98My.jpg

Do you know what this picture has to do with the loss of L 15 (LZ 48) ? :hmmm:

Jimbuna

04-04-16, 02:16 PM

Do you know what this picture has to do with the loss of L 15 (LZ 48) ? :hmmm:

[April 4th, 1916] "Big Game Shooting On The East Coast" (Western Mail cartoon).

https://www.reddit.com/r/100yearsago/

HunterICX

04-05-16, 03:53 AM

Catfish

04-05-16, 06:19 AM

[April 4th, 1916] "Big Game Shooting On The East Coast" (Western Mail cartoon).
https://www.reddit.com/r/100yearsago/

Ah thanks Jim :up:, i wondered about the african 'theme'..

Jimbuna

04-05-16, 08:08 AM

Ah thanks Jim :up:, i wondered about the african 'theme'..

As did I if I'm to be totally honest :yep:

Schroeder

04-12-16, 12:26 PM

I don't know whether this has come up here already but there is a youtube channel dedicated to show what happened in WWI on a weekly basis:
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGreatWar/videos?nohtml5=False

HunterICX

04-12-16, 12:36 PM

^

Yep, on the previous page:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2313432&postcount=107

but it's worth mentioning again and again imo :yep:

Betonov

04-15-16, 10:57 AM

It's this week, but WW1 related so I'll just post it here.
A stash of WWI ordinance was located and the bomb disposal units of civil protection were sent in to clear 87 pieces (386kg) of unexploded shells, grenades and mines (Italian and Austrian)
The area is in the Coastal region, where the Soča front used to be

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/13007367_895042723951853_4528719144546180059_n.jpg ?oh=0896187ef5975f32e86f54b36897d9ce&oe=57B05C5A

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12963406_895042323951893_7329636452408948380_n.jpg ?oh=aa0a80bb77b116033672994510eeb7ab&oe=57B241DF

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/12961462_895042143951911_1338348295763976161_n.jpg ?oh=ad0e1fb676fd55d647117d1436519f7f&oe=57B3CDDE

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/13012727_895042120618580_872816009008376311_n.jpg? oh=e0de9815a468fe2b28dbce736baa4bba&oe=57B7DE50

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11246686_895042180618574_2243080274991241512_n.jpg ?oh=4be610f48c5cb2acfeebb4ab41121c47&oe=57B61DDB

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/13015518_895042187285240_7004336749535694981_n.jpg ?oh=a4ab9bf3e894af98850dfaced47cfd9d&oe=57AFA957

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12987012_895042147285244_4084837068972493816_n.jpg ?oh=10f8b965d130261abfd5e9c229dfeb5f&oe=578051C3

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12998664_895042247285234_2780873739232893223_n.jpg ?oh=10529a297f35264e335005ff757cb4ca&oe=5771CEBC

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12472623_895042293951896_4806084531746568352_n.jpg ?oh=4c620a84c0b61fb780603f09b2935ef5&oe=57B9C45A

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12987135_895042330618559_2712133733101301477_n.jpg ?oh=38204ddece322ff842befe7c830ebcb7&oe=5775ED70

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12987215_895042483951877_255410648417639439_n.jpg? oh=dba4559968054c9ef9cdd5e070427e97&oe=577F8622

https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/12961749_895042730618519_3099783587349498901_n.jpg ?oh=dedcacddd36fa1fb36d5a1e0bdf04987&oe=5771D866

As of today, there have been 131 interventions due to unexploded WWI ordinance and it columnated in 421 pieces or combined weight of 2326kg this year

Aktungbby

04-15-16, 11:08 AM

:sign_yeah: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3125088/Inside-toxic-grave-longest-battle-history-French-forest-300-000-died-300-days-Battle-Verdun-littered-bodies-arsenic-unexploded-shells-grows-100-years.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3125088/Inside-toxic-grave-longest-battle-history-French-forest-300-000-died-300-days-Battle-Verdun-littered-bodies-arsenic-unexploded-shells-grows-100-years.html) http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/06/23/09/29E2B1C400000578-3125088-image-a-38_1435048066469.jpghttp://mentalfloss.com/article/23966/europes-iron-harvest (http://mentalfloss.com/article/23966/europes-iron-harvest) An extremely lethal and dangerous problem all over it seems; thanks for posting that Betonov!

Jimbuna

04-16-16, 08:49 AM

Schroeder

04-23-16, 04:50 AM

It has probably been in this thread already but in case it wasn't here is a nice video on melee weapons used in WWI:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIGIBJeRfnQ

mapuc

05-03-16, 05:25 PM

Are watching a very interesting documentary about the Zeppelin on the German channel N.24

How the ship works and most important how the crew function in altitude they use to operate in.

They tested a volunteer to see how well a human operate in such environment-High altitude=low air-High altitude=cold.

Markus

Aktungbby

05-07-16, 05:02 AM

Came across these original and 'combined negative' shots Warning may B tough to look at: http://picturesofworldwar1.com/category/photographer-frank-hurley (http://picturesofworldwar1.com/category/photographer-frank-hurley) I particularly liked this one: http://picturesofworldwar1.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/38.jpg

Schroeder

05-07-16, 06:39 PM

Interesting pictures.:cool:

Jimbuna

05-08-16, 05:45 AM

Wouldn't fancy being up there amongst all that shrapnel.

http://i.imgur.com/iv7RC2X.jpg

Aktungbby

05-08-16, 12:30 PM

A sound (combined negatives) argument there: http://www.picturesofworldwar1.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/54.jpg

August

05-08-16, 01:13 PM

Got this from the ''The Great War'' facebook page, here are some interviews of German Veterans made in the 80's about the Battle of Verdun:

http://gottmituns.net/2013/03/18/german-veterans-of-verdun-world-war-1-video-interviews/

100 years ago today my Great Grandfather, Johann August Ferd Karl was in the trenches on the southern flank of the Verdun salient. Vaux les Palameix (Chevaliers wood, Bouchot wood).

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/rdsterling/August%20Karl%20Smaller_zpsrkogdh3h.jpg

6th Company
8th Bavarian Infantry Regiment Grossherzog Friedrich II. Von Baden
8th Bavarian Infantry Brigade (8th BIR and 4th BIR)
33rd Reserve Division

5th German army (Generalmajor Wilhelm, Crown Prince of Germany)

Oberon

05-08-16, 02:39 PM

Mine was at Flesselles, starting on a couple of months training after being up the front on and off since January. Their next action would be in July at the Somme. :dead:

My other great-grandfather so far as I can make out was in Egypt either in the Senussi campaign or at the Suez. He'd reverted from Corporal to Driver at his own request and was working with the Army Service Corps with the 52nd divisional train.

And I'm not so sure about my other great-grandfather, he was either with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders or the Gordon Highlanders at this point, sadly I've not been able to get to his records, I can only presume that they were likely discarded or destroyed after his death in 1917.

Betonov

05-11-16, 08:52 AM

This is why Austria-Hungary lost the war

https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13076917_998423760251701_6215583577500029515_n.jpg ?oh=9ff633874607a50f8d907577601dffb5&oe=579C9135

Everyone was high all the time :doh:

(P.S. it's a joke, I know hemp was important for rope and other heavy duty fabric)

HunterICX

05-12-16, 03:35 AM

100 years ago today my Great Grandfather, Johann August Ferd Karl was in the trenches on the southern flank of the Verdun salient. Vaux les Palameix (Chevaliers wood, Bouchot wood).

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/rdsterling/August%20Karl%20Smaller_zpsrkogdh3h.jpg

6th Company
8th Bavarian Infantry Regiment Grossherzog Friedrich II. Von Baden
8th Bavarian Infantry Brigade (8th BIR and 4th BIR)
33rd Reserve Division

5th German army (Generalmajor Wilhelm, Crown Prince of Germany)

Thanks for sharing! :up:

And I'm not so sure about my other great-grandfather, he was either with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders or the Gordon Highlanders at this point, sadly I've not been able to get to his records, I can only presume that they were likely discarded or destroyed after his death in 1917.

Was that common to have records of serving personal discarded or destroyed after one was confirmed killed in action?

Oberon

05-12-16, 04:55 AM

Was that common to have records of serving personal discarded or destroyed after one was confirmed killed in action?

I must admit I don't know, I wouldn't have thought so, but you can never fully tell with the British document storage system. Also, another possible reason is, if I recall correctly, during WWII a lot of records were lost (http://www.1914-1918.net/arnside.html)when a German incendiary burnt down the building they were stored in.

Jimbuna

05-12-16, 06:45 AM

Yep, my grandfathers (mothers side) were also amongst those that were lost.

Jimbuna

05-31-16, 05:21 AM

Battle of Jutland

The Battle of Jutland was fought May 31-June 1, 1916, and was the largest naval battle of World War I (1914-1918).

Fleets & Commanders

Royal Navy

Admiral Sir John Jellicoe
Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty
28 battleships, 9 battlecruisers, 9 armored cruisers, 26 light cruisers, 78 destroyers, 1 minelayer, 1 seaplane carrier.

Kaiserliche Marine

Vice Admiral Reinhard Scheer
Vice Admiral Franz Hipper
16 battleships, 5 battlecruisers, 6 pre-dreadnoughts, 11 light cruisers, 61 torpedo boats.

German Intentions at Jutland

With the Allied blockade increasingly taking a toll on the German war effort, the Kaiserliche Marine began devising plans to bring the Royal Navy to battle. Outnumbered in battleships and battlecruisers, the commander of the High Seas Fleet, Vice Admiral Reinhard Scheer, hoped to lure part of the British fleet to its doom with the goal of evening the numbers for a larger engagement at a later date.

To accomplish this, Scheer intended to have Vice Admiral Franz Hipper's scouting force of battlecruisers raid the English coast to draw out Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty's Battlecruiser Fleet.

Hipper would then retire, leading the pursuing Beatty towards the High Seas Fleet which would destroy the British ships. To support the operation, submarines would be deployed to weaken Beatty's forces while also watching Admiral Sir John Jellicoe's main Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow. Unknown to Scheer, the British codebreakers at Room 40 had broken the German naval codes and were aware that a major operation was in the offing. Unaware of Scheer's intentions, Jellicoe sortied with 24 battleships and three battlecruisers on May 30, 1916, and took up a blocking position ninety miles west of Jutland.

The Fleets Put to Sea

Jellicoe's departure was followed later that day by Hipper who left the Jade Estuary with five battlecruisers. Able to move faster than his superior, Beatty sailed from the Firth of Forth early on May 31 with six battlecruisers and the four fast battleships of the Fifth Battle Squadron.

Leaving after Hipper, Scheer put to sea on May 31 with sixteen battleships and six pre-dreadnoughts. In all cases, each formation was accompanied by a host of armored and light cruisers, destroyers, and torpedo boats. As the British moved into position, the German u-boat screen proved ineffective and played no role.

The Battlecruisers Collide

As the fleets moved towards each other, a communications error led Jellicoe to believe that Scheer was still in port. While he held his position, Beatty steamed east and received reports from his scouts at 2:20 PM of enemy ships to the southeast. Eight minutes later, the first shots of the battle occurred as British light cruisers encountered German destroyers. Turning towards the action, Beatty's signal to Rear Admiral Sir Hugh Evan-Thomas was missed and a ten-mile gap opened between the battlecruisers and the Fifth Battle Squadron before the battleships corrected their course.

This gap prevented Beatty from having a crushing advantage in firepower in the coming engagement. At 3:22 PM, Hipper, moving northwest, spotted Beatty's approaching ships. Turning southeast to lead the British towards Scheer's battleships, Hipper was sighted eight minutes later. Racing forward, Beatty squandered an advantage in range and failed to immediately form his ships for battle. At 3:48 PM, with both squadrons in parallel lines, Hipper opened fire. In the ensuing "Run to the South," Hipper's battlecruisers got the better of the action.

Due to another British signaling error, the battlecruiser Derfflinger was left uncovered and fired with impunity. At 4:00 PM, Beatty's flagship HMS Lion took a near fatal hit, while two minutes later HMS Indefatigable exploded and sank. Its loss was followed twenty minutes later when HMS Queen Mary met a similar fate. Though scoring hits on the German ships, Beatty's battlecruisers failed to score any kills. Alerted to the approach of Scheer's battleships shortly after 4:30 PM, Beatty quickly reversed course and began running to the northwest.

The Run to the North

Passing Evan-Thomas's battleships, Beatty again had signal difficulties which hampered the Fifth Battle Squadron's turn. As the battered battlecruisers withdrew, the battleships fought a running rear-guard action with the High Seas Fleet. Moving to Beatty's aid, Jellicoe sent forward Rear Admiral Horace Hood's Third Battlecruiser Squadron while attempting to obtain information about Scheer's position and heading. As Beatty ran north, his ships hammered at Hipper, forcing him to turn south and join Scheer. Around 6:00 PM, Beatty joined Jellicoe as the commander debated which way to deploy the fleet.

The Dreadnoughts Clash

Deploying to the east of Scheer, Jellicoe put the fleet in position to cross Scheer's T and have superior visibility as the sun began to set. As the Grand Fleet moved into line of battle, there was a flurry of activity as the smaller vessels raced into position, earning the area the name "Windy Corner." With Jellicoe forming the fleet, the action was renewed when two British cruisers came under fire from the Germans. While one was sunk, the other was badly damaged but was inadvertently saved by HMS Warspite whose steering gear overheated causing it to circle and draw German fire.

Approaching the British, Hipper again clashed with the battlecruisers, including Hood's fresh ships. Taking heavy damage, he was forced to abandon his flagship SMS Lutzow, but not before his ships sank HMS Invincible, killing Hood. At 6:30 PM the main fleet action began with Scheer stunned to find Jellicoe's battleships crossing his T. His lead ships under intense fire from the British line, Scheer averted disaster by ordering an emergency maneuver known as Gefechtskehrtwendung (battle about turn to starboard) which saw each ship reverse course by turning 180-degrees.

Knowing that he could not win a stern chase and with too much light remaining to escape, Scheer turned back towards the British at 6:55 PM.

At 7:15 PM, Jellicoe again crossed the German T with his battleships hammering SMS Konig, SMS Grosser Kurfürst, SMS Markgraf, and SMS Kaiser of Scheer's lead division.

Under intense fire, Scheer was forced to order another battle about turn. To cover his withdrawal, he ordered a mass destroyer attack on the British line, along with an sending his battlecruisers forward. Meeting brutal fire from Jellicoe's fleet, the battlecruisers took heavy damage as Scheer laid a smoke screen and retreated. As the battlecruisers limped away, the destroyers commenced torpedo attacks. Turning away from the assault, the British battleships escaped unscathed, however it cost Jellicoe valuable time and daylight.

Night Action

As darkness fell, Beatty's remaining battlecruisers exchanged final shots with the Germans around 8:20 PM and scored several hits on SMS Seydlitz. Aware of German superiority in night fighting, Jellicoe sought to avoid renewing the battle until dawn.

Cruising south, he intended to block Scheer's most likely escape route back to the Jade. Anticipating Jellicoe's move, Scheer slowed and crossed the Grand Fleet's wake during the night. Fighting through a screen of light vessels, Scheer's ships engaged in a series of chaotic night battles.

In these fights, the British lost the cruiser HMS Black Prince and several destroyers to enemy fire and collisions.

Scheer's fleet saw the loss of the pre-dreadnought SMS Pommern, a light cruiser, and several destroyers. Though Scheer's battleships were sighted several times, Jellicoe was never alerted and the Grand Fleet continued sailing south. At 11:15 PM, the British commander did receive an accurate message containing the German location and heading, but due to a series of faulty intelligence reports earlier in the day, it was disregarded. It was not until 4:15 AM on June 1, that Jellicoe was alerted to the German's true position by which point he was too far away to resume the battle.

Aftermath

At Jutland, the British lost 3 battlecruisers, 3 armored cruisers, and 8 destroyers, as well as 6,094 killed, 510 wounded, and 177 captured. German losses numbered 1 pre-dreadnought, 1 battlecruiser, 5 light cruisers, 6 destroyers, and 1 submarine. Casualties were listed as 2,551 killed and 507 wounded. In the wake of the battle, both sides claimed victory. While the Germans succeeded in sinking more tonnage and inflicting higher casualties, the battle itself resulted in a strategic victory for the British. Though the public had sought a triumph similar to Trafalgar, the German efforts at Jutland failed to break the blockade or significantly reduce the Royal Navy's numerical advantage in capital ships. Also, the result led to the High Seas Fleet effectively remaining in port for the remainder of the war as the Kaiserliche Marine turned its focus to submarine warfare.

While both Jellicoe and Beatty were criticized for their performance at Jutland, the battle did lead to several changes in the Royal Navy. Determining that the loss in battlecruisers was largely due to shell handing procedures, changes were made to ensure a higher degree of safety. Also improvements were made to gunnery practices, signaling, and the Fleet Standing Orders.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwar1/a/jutland1.htm

Sailor Steve

05-31-16, 09:42 AM

I had planned to make a detailed, minute-by-minute, blow-by-blow account of the Battle of Jutland, using John Campbell's Jutland: An Analysis of the Fighting as my primary resource.

I then found this series of articles which do an admirable job of explaining everything that happened.
http://www.britishbattles.com/the-battle-of-jutland-part-i-the-opposing-fleets/
http://www.britishbattles.com/the-battle-of-jutland-part-ii-the-opening-battle-cruiser-action-on-31st-may-1916/
http://www.britishbattles.com/the-battle-of-jutland-part-iii-clash-between-the-british-and-german-battle-fleets-during-the-evening-31st-may-1916/
http://www.britishbattles.com/the-battle-of-jutland-part-iv-the-night-action-31st-may-to-1st-june-1916/
http://www.britishbattles.com/battle-of-jutland-part-v-annexe/

There is also this video, which gives a very good illustrated view of what happened.
https://vimeo.com/162655850

mapuc

05-31-16, 11:19 AM

Thank you for your in deep detail description of this largest sea battle

Even though its a very very long time ago, I remember my Grandma telling me how they could hear distance thunder-as she said it sounded like. My Grandma was born 1905/6 and lived in the northern part of Jutland on the west coast(can't remember exactly where)

And they could see flashes in the evening and night time-If I remember correctly.

It was first a few days later they-The citizens in this area understood what it was.

Schroeder

06-02-16, 09:27 AM

Not sure it belongs here but it touches on something that happened during WWI. The German parliament has just adapted a resolution that called the murder of roughly 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman forces in 1915 genocide.
Turkey has called it's ambassador in Berlin back to Ankara as a response.

http://www.sharenet.co.za/news/Germany_angers_Turkey_with_Armenian_genocide_resol ution/fac3005b03ded98bc20d22c62a18b9fb

Jimbuna

06-02-16, 09:49 AM

Sailor Steve

06-05-16, 11:42 AM

This nicely illustrates one of the problems I have with research for the '100 Years' thread. Today is supposedly the 100th anniversary of the first kill by future German ace Herbert Knappe. A lot of the time there is no information on the plane the pilot flew, or even the plane he shot down.

In this case Wikipedia, and all the sites that copy them, says he was flying an Albatros D.II. The problem there is that the first Albatros D.II didn't see service until August, and that was on the Western Front. Knappe was on the Eastern front, and the plane he shot down was Russian. Records are clear on this.

Possibilities are that Knappe was flying a different plane, or maybe the date is wrong and it wasn't June 1916, but 1917. This would make sense as his second victory didn't come until May 1918, and there were still Albatrosen around in mid-'17. I've put in a request at The Aerodrome forums in case someone there has better information, but it will probably be a few days before I know anything.

Sailor Steve

06-18-16, 11:31 AM

Max Immelmann - The Controversies:

The first controversy is, of course, Immelmann's death. McCubbin and Waller, in an FE.2b, put in a claim, for which they were later awarded the Distinguished Service Order and Distinguished Conduct Medal, and Waller received a promotion to sergeant.

From the German side, it was originally said that he was hit by a German AA shell, mainly because of the way the plane came apart in the air. Anthony Fokker supported this claim, but he had a stake in Immelmann's fate, since it was his interrupter gear and his company was already under fire for what was described as "shoddy construction techniques".

Then there is the interrupter failure. This came about when authorities examined the wreckage, and found the propeller severed in line with Immelmann's machine gun.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Immelmann%20Crash_zpsf6d8ijoe.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/SailorSteve/media/Immelmann%20Crash_zpsf6d8ijoe.jpg.html)

On the other hand, while Immelmann had survived just such a failure not long before, there are almost no reports of anyone else having this problem, and it seems improbable that the same man would suffer the same failure so soon after the first, and in a different aeroplane. It's possible that McCubbin actually hit Immelmann's propeller, and it's possible that it shattered when the plane hit the ground.

In October 1935 McCubbin wrote an article for the magazine Popular Flying:
On the 18th of June 1916, a Lieutenant Savage with his observer and myself with my observer, both of 25 Squadron, were sent up for the last patrol of the day merely to keep an eye on the line between La Bassée and east of Lens. At about 9.00 in the evening, we both saw three Fokkers at the back of Lens. Savage and I were quite a distance apart, but we signaled to each other that we were going to engage these Fokkers.

Savage, whilst proceeding towards them suddenly signaled that he was returning. He was much nearer the Fokkers than I was, and they Apparently noticed this as well, and one dived on him immediately. I was flying much higher than they were and immediately dived on the one that was by this time on Savage's tail, but did not open fire. The other two got on my tail, with the result that you had a string of machines all diving down.

Savage's machine suddenly got out of control, as the Fokker had been firing at it, and Savage's machine went down. By this time I was very close to the Fokker and he apparently realized that we were on his tail, and he immediately started to do what I expect was the beginning of an "Immelmann" turn. As he started the turn we opened fire and the Fokker immediately got out of control and went down to earth.

I then turned to see what the other two machines were doing, who had been firing at me, but found that they had turned and were making back to their own lines, which to my mind rather proved they knew that Immelmann was in the other machine.

I went down fairly low to see what had happened to both Savage and the German machine, but as it was getting dark, I could see nothing, and although I flew around for some time I had to give it up and go back to my aerodrome and report the encounter.

With regard to the German statement that Immelmann crashed because he shot his own prop off, it is quite on the cards that our bullets not only got him, but his prop as well, and that would be the reason for them trying to make this statement.The second controversy involves Immelmann's last kills. Some sources award him two victories that day for a final score of 17. Most, however, only allow the 15 he had prior to this day. The first, at 1700, was not claimed by anyone, yet the plane is known to have crashed and a Fokker was seen shooting at it. If not Immelmann, then who? And if someone else, why didn't he claim it. If it was Immelmann, then why wasn't a claim put in in his name?

Equally puzzling is the second, at 2145. Max von Mulzer put in a claim for that plane, and was awarded victory number 4. Immelmann was of course not there to put in his own claim. That said, according to McCubbin he attacked and shot down the plane that was attacking Savage. No matter the actual cause of his death, that pilot was Immelmann. If Mulzer had shot down Savage, wouldn't Mulzer have been the plane that McCubbin attacked?

Possibly von Mulzer shot down Savage and then dove away, making McCubbin think he had been shot down, and Immelmann's loss took place around the same time, but coincidentally. Immelmann may have been shooting at McCubbin. Or it may have been exactly as McCubbin described. No one knows for certain.

As I said - Controversy.

Catfish

06-18-16, 01:15 PM

On the BBC News site as well:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36433114

(regarding the genocide of Armenians, by the Ottoman Empire)
If anyone wants to inform himself, this is a very good book about what happened: "The fourty days of Musa Dagh" by Franz Werfel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forty_Days_of_Musa_Dagh
Have read it last year, was really impressed by it.

Sailor Steve

06-25-16, 09:56 AM

Aviation author Norman Franks compiled a list of aerial victories as of June 25, 1916.

German:
Oswald Boelcke 18
Max Immelmann 15 or 17
Kurt Wintgens 7
Walter Höhndorf 7
Ernst von Althaus 6
Hans-Joachim Buddecke 6 (flying for Turkey)
Wilhelm Frankl 6
Rudolf Berthold 5
Max Mulzer 5
Gustav Leffers 4
Otto Parschau 4

British:
Lanoe Hawker 7
Albert Ball 5
Charles G. Bell 5

French:
Jean Navarre 12
Charles Nungesser 10
Georges Guynemer 9
Jean Chaput 7
Eugene Gilbert 6
Maxime Lenoir 5
Edwards Pulpe 5
André Chainat 4
Albert Deullin 4
Georges Pelletier D'Oisy 4
Noel de Rochfort 3
Lucien Jailler 3

I find it curious that Franks doesn't mention the world's first ace, Adolph Pegoud. This may be because Pegoud got most of his kills in two-seaters. Also not mentioned is Roland Garros, the first single-seat fighter pilot, with three victories. Possible he was only recording pilots who were still in action, but in that case why list Immelmann?

I guess some questions aren't meant to be answered.

On the other hand I have no mention of Edwards (or Eduard) Pulpe. who scored his fifth and last victory on June 10, and was killed in August. This seems to be because he is not listed at The Aerodrome, which was my primary source for my original lists. He is listed at a French website I've been using for cross-checking. I'll probably go back and add him in on the relevant dates.

Jimbuna

08-19-16, 07:11 AM

Naval Action of 19 August 1916

Background

Although Jutland had been officially hailed as a success, the German commander Admiral Reinhard Scheer felt it important that another raid should be mounted as quickly as possible to maintain morale in his severely battered fleet. It was decided that the raid should follow the pattern of previous ones, with the battlecruisers carrying out a dawn artillery bombardment of an English town, in this case Sunderland. Only two battlecruisers were still serviceable after Jutland, Moltke and Von der Tann, so the force was bolstered by the addition of three battleships, Bayern, Markgraf and Grosser Kurfürst. The remainder of the High Seas Fleet, comprising 16 dreadnought battleships, was to carry out close support 20 miles behind. The fleet set sail at 9:00 pm on 18 August from the Jade river.

The attack
Intelligence

Information about the upcoming raid was obtained by British Intelligence in Room 40 through intercepted and decoded radio messages. Admiral Sir John Jellicoe, commander of the British fleet, was on leave so had to be recalled urgently and boarded the light cruiser Royalist at Dundee to meet his fleet in the early hours of 19 August off the river Tay. In his absence, Admiral Cecil Burney took the fleet to sea on the afternoon of 18 August. Vice-Admiral David Beatty left the Firth of Forth with his squadron of six battlecruisers to meet the main fleet in the Long Forties. The Harwich Force of 20 destroyers and 5 light cruisers commanded by Commodore Tyrwhitt was ordered out, as were 25 British submarines which were stationed in likely areas to intercept German ships. The battlecruisers together with the 5th Battle Squadron of five fast battleships were stationed 30 miles ahead of the main fleet to scout for the enemy. The assembled fleet now moved south seeking the German fleet, but suffered the loss of one of the light cruisers screening the battlecruiser group, HMS Nottingham, which was hit by three torpedoes from submarine U-52 at 6:00 am.

Finding the opposition

At 6:15 am Jellicoe received information from the Admiralty that one hour earlier the enemy had been 200 miles to his south east. However, the loss of the cruiser caused him to first head north for fear of endangering his other ships. No torpedo tracks or submarines had been seen, so it was unclear whether the cause had been a submarine or entering an unknown minefield. He did not resume a south-easterly course until 9:00 am when William Goodenough, commanding the light cruisers, advised that the cause had been a submarine attack. Further information from the admiralty indicated that the battlecruisers would be within 40 miles of the main German fleet by 2:00 pm. and Jellicoe increased to maximum speed. Weather conditions were good, with plenty of time for a fleet engagement before dark.

The German force had received reassurances about Jellicoe's position, when a zeppelin had spotted the Grand Fleet heading north away from Scheer, at the time it had been avoiding the possible minefield. Unfortunately for the British, the Zeppelin L 13 sighted the Harwich force approximately 75 miles east-north-east of Cromer, mistakenly identifying the cruisers as battleships. This was precisely the sort of target Scheer was seeking, so he changed course at 12:15 pm also to the south-east and away from the approaching British fleet. No further reports were received from zeppelins about the British fleet, but it was spotted by a U-boat just 65 miles north of Scheer. Scheer turned for home at 2:35 pm abandoning his potential target. By 4:00 pm Jellicoe had been advised that Scheer had abandoned the operation and so turned north himself.

The attack

Nassau-class battleship SMS Westfalen damaged by torpedo from HMS E23
A second cruiser attached to the battlecruiser squadron, HMS Falmouth, was hit by two torpedoes from U-63 at 4:52 pm and sank the following day while being towed to the Humber, when hit by two more torpedoes fired by U-66. By 5:45 pm the Harwich force had sighted German ships but was too far behind for any prospect of an attack before nightfall so abandoned the chase. The British submarine HMS E23 (Lieutenant-Commander R. R. Turner) managed to hit the German battleship SMS Westfalen at 5:05 am on 19 August but the ship was able to return home.

Aftermath

This was the last occasion on which the German fleet travelled so far west into the North Sea. On 6 October, a decision was made in Germany to resume attacks against merchant vessels by submarine, which meant the submarine fleet was no longer available for combined attacks against surface vessels. On 13 September, a conference took place on the flagship to discuss recent events and it was decided that it was unsafe to conduct fleet operations south of latitude 55.5° North (approximately level with Horns reef and where the battle of Jutland had taken place), except in an emergency such as a German invasion force.[6] Scheer was unimpressed by the efficiency of the Zeppelin reconnaissance. Only three Zeppelins had spotted anything and from seven reports four had been wrong.

From 18–19 October, Scheer led a brief sortie into the North Sea and British intelligence gave warning; the Grand Fleet declined to prepare an ambush, staying in port with steam raised ready to sail. The German sortie was abandoned after a few hours when SMS München was hit by a torpedo fired by E38 (Lieutenant-Commander J. de B. Jessop) and it was feared other submarines might be in the area. Scheer suffered further difficulties when in November he sailed with Moltke and a division of dreadnoughts to rescue U-20 and U-30, which had become stranded on the Danish coast. British submarine J1, Commander J. Laurence, managed to hit the battleships Grosser Kurfürst and Kronprinz. The failure of these operations reinforced the belief, created at Jutland, that the risks involved in such operations were not justified by the outcomes. Both sides feared the loss of their capital ships to submarines or mines.

http://i.imgur.com/YuQ8yeU.jpg
Town-class cruiser HMS Falmouth, sunk after torpedo attacks from two submarines.

http://i.imgur.com/8GUqTjt.jpg
Nassau-class battleship SMS Westfalen damaged by torpedo from HMS E23.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_19_August_1916

Sailor Steve

08-20-16, 02:12 PM

Czech-born Austro Hungarian ace Jindřich (Heinrich to his Austrian comrades) Kostrba scored his eighth and last victory on this day in 1916. In November he took command of Flik 2, but scored no more kills. In September 1918 he went home to Prague and became chief of police there. He was part of the bloodless coup that led to the formation of the independent Czechoslovakia on October 28, 1918. Kostrba then helped create the Czech Air Corps. He commanded this for a year before being removed due to political differences with his superiors.

In 1921 Kostrba returned to the Air Corps as a squadron leader, where he served for five more years. In 1926 he announced his retirement and plans to become the director of the new Czech State Airline. A week before his announced retirement he was leading a group of Yugoslavian aircraft from Prague to Warsaw. During the takeoff, at an altitude of 30 feet, one of the other aircraft collided with his, killing Kostrba and the two crewmen of the other plane.

Schroeder

04-20-17, 11:15 AM

Aktungbby

04-20-17, 11:59 AM

OT
Am I the only one who thinks the term "casualties" is complete BS? I mean someone gets shot in the little toe -> casualty
someone gets shot in the head and dies instantly -> casualty
So all in all the number of "casualties" doesn't tell me anything about how severs things are. Over here "casualties" are referred to as wounded and dead with the respective numbers for each.

So what does 6,444 "casualties" concretely mean? People we won't see again or people who will soon be there again to fight another day? We don't know and therefore those statistics contain zero tangible info.:-?

/OT Technically the 'Second' Battle of Gaza: Gen. Dobell launched another frontal assault on the Turkish defences, which was supported by six tanks::oops:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Disabled_Tank_Gaza_1917.jpg and gas shells. The tanks and the gas were both dismal failures and the attacking forces could make little headway against well-sited Turkish redoubts. After three days of fighting the attack was called off, having not gained any significant ground. During the battle the Ottoman defenders suffered between 82 and 402 killed, between 1,337 and 1,364 wounded, and between 242 and 247 missing. About 200 Ottoman prisoners were captured.
Unit Casualties 52nd (Lowland) Division 1,874 53rd (Welsh) Division 584 54th (East Anglian) Division 2,870 Anzac Mounted Division 105 Imperial Mounted Division 547 Imperial Camel Brigade 345 Total 6,325 Between 17 and 20 April, EEF lost 6,444 casualties. The infantry suffered 5,328 casualties; 2,870 of these were from the 54th (East Anglian) Division and 1,828 from the 163rd Brigade alone. The 52nd (Lowland) Division suffered 1,874 casualties, the 53rd (Welsh) Division 584, the Imperial Camel Brigade 345 casualties, the Imperial Mounted Division 547 casualties, and the Anzac Mounted Division 105 casualties. Only one brigade in each of the 52nd (Lowland) and the 54th (East Anglian) Divisions was intact or had suffered only light casualties. The 74th Division had not been engaged.
Official casualty figures include 509 killed, 4,359 wounded, and 1,534 missing; including 272 prisoners of war, while unofficially the figure was much higher at 17,000. A slightly lower figure of 14,000 has also been claimed. The 10th Light Horse Regiment, (3rd Light Horse Brigade, Imperial Mounted Division) lost 14 officers and almost half the regiment's other ranks killed or wounded. Three months later on 12 July, General Allenby reported "Units are, however, below strength, and 5,150 infantry and 400 yeomanry reinforcements are required now to complete the four divisions and mounted now in the line to full strength." The Gaza war cemetery bears silent witness to the casualties which were much more severe than the British public was told.. So...it was official BS indeed...and mean! The defeat of the EEF boosted the Ottoman Fourth Army's morale. Within weeks Kress von Kressenstein was reinforced by the 7th and the 54th Divisions, and by October 1917 the Eighth Army commanded by Kress von Keressenstein had been established with headquarters at Huleikat north of Huj. The EEF's strength, which could have supported an advance to Jerusalem, was now decimated. Murray and Dobell were relieved of their commands and sent back to England. Map shows the problem: old-fashioned linear tactics against entrenched Turkish machine guns:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d5/Machine_gun_corps_Gaza_line_WWIb_edit2.jpg/1024px-Machine_gun_corps_Gaza_line_WWIb_edit2.jpg simply won't work in 1917:https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Second_Battle_of_Gaza_map.jpg/220px-Second_Battle_of_Gaza_map.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_Battle_of_Gaza_map.jpg)(enlarges)

Schroeder

04-20-17, 12:45 PM

@BBY

Thanks, but my frustration was more with this uninformative term itself and it's wide spread use in the English language.:salute:

Aktungbby

04-20-17, 12:52 PM

than the British public was told.. ^ As I pointed out: it's intended to keep the public uninformed...:03:

Sailor Steve

04-21-17, 10:42 PM

Posts moved to proper forum.

Aktungbby

04-22-17, 12:42 AM

Gee, what else didn't happen 100 years ago today?

Posts moved to proper forum. Allied troops are defeated in their attempt to take Gaza, suffering 6,444 casualties. Ottomans suffer around 2000 casualties.

NOPE: a discussion ought to be held in the context (forum in which the question is raised) on the casualty count connected with the Second battle of Gaza as inquired by Schroder. In this case, a direct itemized accounting of the casualties and their intentional misrepresentation ...occurring on or as a consequence of the date in which they are enumerated by Jimbuna or yourself. The 'proper forum' is thus the forum in which the alleged fact is enumerated. As per your own precedent "gee what else...." the discussion involves what happened precisely one hundred year ago: highlighting the casualty aspect of Jimbuna's statement and it's reason for official obfuscation (or 'complete BS' as Schroeder puts it). Schroeder's question is not off topic and my response was pertinent (concrete??!!) and completely in sync and does not deviate from the date and the topic posted by the moderator-in-chief....Jimbuna. General discussion of an event not related to a specific date/event in WWI made be conducted elsewhere. The OP: Oberon has not specified the diary format exclusively (which I occasionally use myself:03:) therefore Schroder's casualty query and my somewhat detailed but precise response ought to remain in the original thread. Schroder's post and my response does not qualify for transfer in this instance.

Sailor Steve

04-22-17, 01:35 AM

NOPE: a discussion ought to be held in the context (forum in which the question is raised) on the casualty count connected with the Second battle of Gaza as inquired by Schroder... Schroder's post and my response does not qualify for transfer in this instance.
Schroeder's post was by his own admission Off-Topic. His question may have been brought up in reference to a Jimbuna's post, but it was a generic question worded specifically to spark a discussion - a discussion which has nothing to do with what happened one hundred years ago today.

Your response, while using the particular battle as an example, was directly tied to his question, and I couldn't move one without moving the other. I considered editing the parts that weren't tied directly to the battle, but then decided that was not only not my place but more work than I was willing to do considering the several hours I already put in every day on the '100 Years' thread. I thought your response was a good one, and if you wish to create an edited version with regards to the battle itself, please feel free to do so.

Sailor Steve

04-22-17, 01:43 AM

@BBY

Thanks, but my frustration was more with this uninformative term itself and it's wide spread use in the English language.:salute:
It's an interesting point, and one I've struggled with for several years now. I have always thought of "casualties" in terms of death and injury, but it seems that the common usage refers to any combatant removed from service. A dead man is a casualty. A wounded man is a casualty. A man who deserted is a casualty. A man who got temporarily lost is a casualty.

Anyone not available for even a day due to a battle is a "casualty".

This has been especially interesting in the recording of the Air War. I've discovered many days in which several pilots on one side recording shooting down planes on the other side, but the other side's report reads "Casualties - nil". If the plane has engine damage but lands on its own side of the lines with the crew unhurt, it's not a casualty, at least to them.

How do you reconcile it? I don't know.

August

04-22-17, 11:15 AM

Sailor Steve

04-23-17, 01:38 AM

Alan Machin Wilkinson scores his last victory today. Wilkinson will become Leader of 23 Squadron RFC until coming down with appendicitis in August 1917. He will end the war as a combat-school instructor. Wilkinson will work in advertising and eventually become a directory of the London Press Exchange. He will rejoin the RAF in World War 2 and will command two different air bases. Alan Machin Wilkinson will die in June 1972, aged 80.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2480205&postcount=2260

Jimbuna

04-23-17, 07:55 AM

Launch of the USS New Mexico.
http://i.imgur.com/gGayt1J.jpg

John Walter Wilcox, Jr. (1882-1942), U.S. Navy, and Margaret Cabeza DeBaca, daughter of Ezequiel Cabeza De Baca, governor of New Mexico. Margaret christened the battleship New Mexico on April 23, 1917.
http://i.imgur.com/ZbgpIza.jpg

Aktungbby

05-07-17, 12:34 PM

7th May 1917

Top British flying ace, VC Albert Ball falls in battle. Lothar Von Richthofen credited for kill.
Falsely imho: Ball was last seen by fellow pilots pursuing the red Albatros D.III of the Red Baron's younger brother, Lothar von Richthofen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothar_von_Richthofen), who eventually landed near Annœullin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann%C5%93ullin) with a punctured fuel tank. Cyril Crowe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Crowe) observed Ball flying into a dark thundercloud. A German pilot officer on the ground, Lieutenant Hailer, then saw Ball's plane falling upside-down from the bottom of the cloud, :Kaleun_Salute: Brothers Franz and Carl Hailer and the other two men in their party were from a German reconnaissance unit, Flieger-Abteilung A292. Franz Hailer noted, "It was leaving a cloud of black smoke... caused by oil leaking into the cylinders." The engine had to be inverted for this to happen. The Hispano engine was known to flood its inlet manifold (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inlet_manifold) with fuel when upside down and then stop running. Franz Hailer and his three companions hurried to the crash site. Ball was already dead when they arrived. The four German airmen agreed that the crashed craft had suffered no battle damage. No bullet wounds were found on Ball's body, even though Hailer went through Ball's clothing to find identification. Hailer also took Ball to a field hospital. A German doctor subsequently described a broken back and a crushed chest, along with fractured limbs, as the cause of death. (clearly a case of blunt-force trauma from the crash as described by a trained medical person)
The Germans credited Richthofen with shooting down Ball, but there is some doubt as to what happened, especially as Richthofen's claim was for a Sopwith Triplane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopwith_Triplane), not an S.E.5, which was a biplane. Given the amount of propaganda the German High Command generated touting the younger Richthofen, a high-level decision may have been taken to attribute Ball's death to him. It is probable that Ball was not shot down at all, but had become disoriented and lost control during his final combat, the victim of a form of temporary vertigo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo) that has claimed other pilotsEven today: rule one of flying (especially in a Cessna:O:) U NEVER FLY INTO A THUNDERCLOUD...especially dark ones! I've survived two intense microbursts myself one blew down a large professionally erected party-tent literally hitting only the large yard I was in; the other deposited six inches of hail on my 200 yard diameter Napa neighborhood in 10 minutes. Such winds are known to crash modern jet liners, much less a well strung biplane, on approach to landings at near touch-down altitude as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_191 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_191) For aircraft, you have all these hazards and many more. First is the severity of the updrafts and downdrafts; if the currents inside a thunderhead can keep a chunk of ice the size of a softball aloft, just think what it'll do to your little Piper Cherokee (or even a 747). Second is icing; as your plane is getting tossed around, the same near-freezing water condensation that forms hailstones finds the ultra-low-pressure environment over the top of your wings' leading edges simply irresistible. Third is debris; if there's an active tornado or even high straightline winds associated with this event, not only will you have ice flying around, but dirt/sand, rocks of varying sizes, tree branches, all the way up to Dorothy and Toto. Even planes with a military pedigree, like the P-3 Orions that are used to track hurricanes, can't survive this kind of onslaught.
Don't go anywhere near a thunderhead. Just don't. In fact, if you're a private pilot, don't even take off if there's a thunderhead anywhere near you, and if you're flying cross-country and see one, get on the horn with ATC immediately and request information on its course and speed and what you can do to avoid it. For pilots of small unpressurized craft the answer will usually be to put the storm front on your tail, open up the throttle and find the nearest airstrip that can take you. The cloud spit out a stressed out war-weary ace, inverted at two hundred feet, with an oil-flooded Hispano engine: too low for hope of recovery. Even the artist got the clouds right; Last Fight of Captain Ball https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/2106-21LastFlightof_CaptainBall.jpg/1024px-2106-21LastFlightof_CaptainBall.jpghttps://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/16700/why-is-the-cumulonimbus-cloud-formation-so-dangerous (https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/16700/why-is-the-cumulonimbus-cloud-formation-so-dangerous)

Giesemaschine

05-22-17, 01:13 AM

Hard to believe the END of WW1 was a century ago...wow.

Schroeder

05-22-17, 01:32 PM

Hard to believe the END of WW1 was a century ago...wow.
That's because you're 1.5 years early....:hmmm:

Nippelspanner

05-22-17, 01:36 PM

That's because you're 1.5 years early....:hmmm:
:haha:

August

05-22-17, 01:46 PM

That's because you're 1.5 years early....:hmmm:

Too bad he wasn't right. At this point 100 years ago it was still 17 months before my great grandfather was killed in action in the closing days of the war.

Sailor Steve

05-22-17, 02:53 PM

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Giesemaschine

05-22-17, 10:04 PM

That's because you're 1.5 years early....:hmmm:

Details, details :k_confused::D

Sailor Steve

06-06-17, 11:24 PM

On June 2, 1917, English RFC ace Billy Bishop staged a solo dawn strike on a German aerodrome, destroying three Albatros fighters right after they took off.

Or so he claimed. This might not have mattered had he not been awarded the Victoria Cross for this single action. Normally the VC required three eyewitness, none of whom could be the recipient himself. Unfortunately, as with many of his other claims, Bishop was alone in this endeavor. Also unfortunate is the fact that the Germans filed no report concerning this action. In fact, it might not have happened at all.

It is a fact that the British services (RFC, RNAS, and later RAF) were much looser in their claim filing system than any other air force. In many cases there is only the pilot's claim, with no corroborating evidence at all. The type of plane is usually mentioned but the serial number is not listed, nor is the pilot's name and fate.

On the other hand, while the Germans are praised for their precision in claim corroboration, they rarely list what type of plane their own pilots were flying, let alone serial numbers. Also in Bishop's favor is the fact that the Germans never counted planes lost as "losses". Only when the pilot was wounded or killed was it listed in that column.

Did Billy Bishop really attack the German aerodrome that day? There were no other witnesses. In fact a careful examination of the claims vs losses shows that of his 72 credited kills only 21 have any actual evidence to support them. This has led to a great many arguments over the years, some of the virulent to the point of sounding like a religious debate.

So, as with all great aces, the controversy continues.

Catfish

06-07-17, 01:50 AM

@ Steve you're back :up: (not "your back" this time :D)
^ commented to Bishop on the other thread, don't know if you read it:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2488134&postcount=1919
As we learned Richthofen and Udet also were not always right in their claims, or some may have been "added" externally for propaganda purposes. On the other hand we know of some who did not claim more to be able to stay in their units. Brave enough to climb into those crates. Though i would have probably preferred that, too, rather than to dig trenches under miserable conditions. And then, "wizard prang".. which meant something else in WW1 than in WW2 afaik.

propbeanie

06-07-17, 11:05 AM

I have been meaning to post a picture of my Grandpa in here for quite a while now, and keep neglecting to get a picture of him to work with. I do have this one though, which (unfortunately) is the best I've got of him in uniform. This is something someone in the family put together years ago, and had colorized, then they mounted it in an oval frame, with a "dome" glass cover. The frame & glass are "Art Deco" looking, so I'd say this is from the mid- to late Twenties, with the colorizing coming later. I'm afraid to take the frame apart to get a "clean" picture of what I'm calling "Three Brothers". So, that's my Grandpa in the middle, US Army Signal Corps (I cannot find my notes as to which unit he was in), and his two younger brothers, who went Navy (smart fellers). I do believe that the younger (on the left) was "too late" for the war. Grandma used to joke that she had to have the fellow on the right join the navy to go pickup my grandpa from France, else he'd still be there. His hat says USS President Grant, which was a Transport ship... Three boys in the family, and they all joined-up. btw, that is a watermark by my great-uncle's left ear. The rest of the strange look about it is the reflections of the glass cover of the frame.

http://i.imgur.com/eq57oCU.jpg

I salute them, and all others who have served / are serving their countries with honor.

Sailor Steve

06-07-17, 11:32 AM

commented to Bishop on the other thread, don't know if you read it:
Yes, I saw it. I've been in the habit of posting here whenever I wanted to discuss something longer than just reporting the news, and as everyone knows I've been running behind on the other thread, due to several complications.

As we learned Richthofen and Udet also were not always right in their claims, or some may have been "added" externally for propaganda purposes.
I've mentioned those specifically when I've come across them. No complaints, though, the more discussion on subjects like this, the better it is.

August

06-07-17, 12:18 PM

As we learned Richthofen and Udet also were not always right in their claims, or some may have been "added" externally for propaganda purposes.

If I remember his book correctly Rene Fonck sure thought so.

Aktungbby

09-16-17, 09:43 AM

1900 German ace Hans von Adam, flying an Albatros D.V, shoots down a Sopwith Camel B6250 for victory number 15. 2nd Lt J.B.H. Wyman is wounded and taken prisoner. THAT's Hans Ritter von Adam![QUOTE] the Military Order of Max Joseph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Order_of_Max_Joseph) (Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden), was posthumously bestowed on him, with effect from 28 July 1917.:up: (18 days earlier!) On that date, as deputy Staffelführer of Jasta 6, while his Staffelführer chased one bomber, Adam had attacked and broken up the rest of a formation of enemy bombers, and continued the pursuit despite damage to his own aircraft, until his squadron had destroyed the enemy formation. For a commoner, award of the Military Order of Max Joseph carried with it a patent of non-hereditary nobility signified by the title "Ritter von", and Hans Adam posthumously became Hans Ritter von Adam.[QUOTE]:D https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Hans_Ritter_von_Adam.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hans_Ritter_von_Adam.jpg):()1: Therefore all victories attributed after 7/28/1917 are to Hans Ritter von Adam!:Kaleun_Salute:

Sailor Steve

09-16-17, 09:56 AM

So should I do that for every pilot I list? Should I also include their ranks? Rittmeister Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen? Actually I've been leaving off the extra stuff intentionally, as there are a lot of them with titles that do nothing but take up space.

Aktungbby

09-16-17, 11:57 AM

WHAAAA....! depriving a man of his justly earned battle honors...and titles for taking up your space! Outrageous! :Kaleun_Mad:

Sailor Steve

09-16-17, 02:15 PM

Okay, you win. I'm still not going to add every title to every pilot. I am hand-typing every single one of these, you know.

Aktungbby

09-16-17, 02:57 PM

Okay, you win. I'm still not going to add every title to every pilot. I am hand-typing every single one of these, you know. A :Kaleun_Salute: to your intrepid character as a former military man in your own right!

Sailor Steve

09-24-17, 01:07 AM

A commentary on the death of Werner Voss
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2514706&postcount=2570

The Werner Voss Controversy:
Five months before this, Manfred von Richthofen was slated to go on leave. He had 48 kills at the time, and wanted to attain the half-century mark before he left. He got four in one day, and went home with 52 victories. Now Voss is scheduled to go on leave, and earlier in the day he had scored number 48. He was also rapidly catching von Richthofen, who had only scored four kills since July, while Voss had gotten fourteen. He was only twelve behind.

After his morning patrol Voss was visited by his father and two brothers, who were there to take him home for his leave. Rather than pack his bags and go with them then, he decided to fly one more patrol, maybe getting number 50 before departing. Voss took off alone. He came across a patrol of SE.5as from No 60 Squadron and immediately attacked the two planes in the rear. These were Cpt H.A. Hamersley and Robert Chislaw-Roberts. Voss opened fire on Chidlaw-Roberts and Hamersley turned to help his partner. Voss turned to face him and in the head-on pass Hamersley's plane was badly shot up.

At this point 'B' and 'C' Flights of No 56 Squadron arrived on the scene. As Chidlaw-Roberts and Hamersley made their escape Voss was joined by a red-nosed Albatros. Under the Guns of the German Aces says it is believed that this was Carl Menckhoff of Jasta 3, at that time having 11 kills under his belt.

The British pilots were:
James McCudden, SE.5a B4863, 12 victories.
Arthur Rhys Davids, B545, 18.
Leonard Barlow, B511, 13.
Keith Muspratt, A8944, 6
Maxwell Coote, aircraft and victories unlisted.
Verschoyle Cronyn, A4563, victories unlisted.
Geoffrey Bowman, B2, 16.
Reginald Hoidge, B506, 21.
Richard Mayberry, B1, 13.
Stanley Gardiner, aircraft and victories unlisted.
Edward Taylor, aircraft and victories unlisted.

The Albatros was soon hit and abandoned the fight. Mayberry and Cronyn also departed. The final fight was Voss against seven SE.5a pilots, most if not all of them aces. Some of them reported that on at least two occassions Voss was above the whole group and could have climbed away, as the F.I/Dr.I had the best climb of any plane in the war. Why he did not do so is part of the controversy. It's possible that Voss had lost speed to get above them and believed they could catch him. It's possible that No 60 squadron was still in the area and were just watching the fight, but blocked Voss' way out. It's also possible that he desperately wanted thost 50 kills. Still another possiblility is that he was doing so well against them that he began to think he couldn't be touched.

The bottom line is that Voss stayed with the fight until Arthur Rhys Davids got one good shot lined up, and Werner Voss died.

Another question is why only Rhys Davids was awarded the victory. Yes, he was the one who fired the fatal shots, but it was customary in British practice to award every pilot involved.

The British pilots who brought Voss down had high praise for him:
"I have only admiration for that German pilot, who single handed, fought seven of us for ten minutes..."
-James McCudden

"If I could only have brought him down alive..."
-Arthur Rhys Davids.

mapuc

10-07-17, 03:21 PM

Sorry for interrupting your fantastic job.

Every time I read Steves posting about the war in the air I'm always thinking

Have anyone made a top 20 of each countries best pilot/most kills ?
(guessing Red Baron would be number 1 in Germany, but who's number 2 and 3.....)

Have anyone made a list of how many plane have been shot down in all and for each country ?(taking part in the air war)

Markus

Sailor Steve

10-07-17, 03:57 PM

Yes, many lists have been made of the top scoring aces from each country. Rather than copy the lists myself I'll refer you to this list:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/by_nation.php

mapuc

10-07-17, 05:15 PM

Yes, many lists have been made of the top scoring aces from each country. Rather than copy the lists myself I'll refer you to this list:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/by_nation.php

First of all

I was before I posted my comment in our 100 years ago today, wondering where I could post my question, ´cause I didn't want to start a new thread. I was never thinking about this thread.

Second

Thank you for the link.

Markus

mapuc

01-27-18, 06:05 PM

Throughout the weeks I have seen a trailer for a new documentaries who start tomorrow Sunday(28th of January).

It is Aces War and its about the first planes in World War One and the first Aces of that war.

Description first Episode

Winter 1914. Marshal Joffre Annonce that Airplane no longer should be used to recon. From now on they should be used to destroy enemies planes.

I also remember it, every time I read one of Steves posting in 100 years ago today.

Markus

Sailor Steve

01-27-18, 08:09 PM

I'll be interested to see what they say about Joffre in the actual show, since reconnaissance was always the primary use of the airplane during the Great War. One of the early complaints by German pilots was that the Fokker Eindecker was assigned to protect their own two-seaters from the enemy when they would rather be out hunting.

mapuc

01-28-18, 04:27 PM

Now I understood why they called the program Aces War.

It was not so much about the development in the use of aircraft in the great war but mostly about the first aces.

Throughout the program they had some small parts of the war and the roll the airplane had.

Markus

Sailor Steve

04-21-18, 11:46 PM

The Red Baron Controversy:

A mixed combat took place over France on April 21, 1918. On the British side No 209 Squadron was flying an offensive patrol in three sections:

A Flight:
Captain Arthur Roy Brown, Sopwith Camel B7270.
Lt William John MacKenzie, B7245.
Lt Wilfred Reid May, D3326.
Lt Lomas, D3340.
Lt Francis John Williamson Mellersh, D3329. Mellersh was forced to return home with engine troubles, but was back in the air in another Camel and rejoined A Flight at 1010.

B Flight:
Capt Oliver Colin LeBoutillier, D3338.
Lt Robert Mordaunt Foster, B3858.
Lt M.A. Harker, B7272.
Lt Merril Samuel Taylor, B7200.
Lt C.G. Brock, D3328.

C Flight:
Capt Oliver William Redgate.
Lt A.W. Aird.
L E.B. Drake.
Lt C.G. Edwards.
Lt J.H. Siddall.

On the German side were components of Jasta 5, a mixed group of Albatros D.Vs and Fokker Dr.1s:

Kette 1:
Wolfram von Richthoven.
Oberltn Walther Karjos.
Vfw Edgar Scholz.
Ltn Hans-Joachim Wolff.
With them was Manfred von Richthofen in his Fokker Triplane.

Kette 2:
Ltn Hans Weiss.
Ltn Richard Wenzl.

There were also Dr.Is from Jasta 11. From the description given in Under The Guns of the Red Baron it is difficult to tell the exact number of German planes and the names of all the pilots.

Complicating matters was the wind. There is usually a prevailing wind blowing from west to east, dragging any fight into German territory. This day the wind was blowing from east to west, carrying the fight to the Allied side.

Wilfred May was a novice pilot, and had orders to remain on the outskirts of any fight. He was doing just that when a triplane came close enough for him to jump into the fray. This is thought to be Wolfram von Richthofen. He was in turn jumped by another triplane and tried to run for his lines. Seeing this happen, Brown dove after them in an attempt to save his rookie pilot. May was hugging the ground and von Richthofen was right with him. Brown was diving down behind. Brown was firing at the triplane when it suddenly dropped to the ground and crash-landed.

The victory was claimed by Brown, who didn't know who his opponent was until he landed. It was also claimed by ground troops in general and by an Australian machine-gun company, who gave the credit to gunner Cedric Popkin. The controversy arises mainly from the fact that once the identity of the victim was established the plane was stripped of almost all its fabric by souvenir hunters. There is no way to establish how many times the plane itself was hit, or from what direction. Von Richthofen was hit once. Much has been made of the angle of the wound, saying it "must have" come from the ground. Two complications arise here. First is that no one knows for sure the attitude of von Richthofen's Dr.I at the fatal moment, which means the bullet could have come from almost any direction. Second is that while the body was examined twice, it wasn't opened up with the intent of establishing entry and exit wounds. RAF pilots of course insist that they witnessed the final shots and had no doubt it was Brown's kill. On the other hand the Australian gunners were right there and insist it belongs to Popkin. The actual truth will never be known.

"It's a terrible thing when you think of it that they should examine a body just to see who should have the credit of killing hin."
- Arthur Roy Brown

"The sight of von Richthofen as I walked closer gave me a start. His face, particularly peaceful, had an expression of gentleness and goodness, of refinement. Suddenly I felt miserable, desperately unhappy, as if I had committed an injustice. with a feeling of shame, a kind of anger against myself moved in my thoughts, that I had forced him to lay there...I cursed the war. If I could, I would gladly have brought him back to life."
- Arthur Roy Brown

mapuc

05-18-18, 12:29 PM

A question popped up when I read about the war in the air war May 17th 1918.

In on of these lines

"1045 German pilot Marat Schumm, with Jasta 52, shoots down SE.5a C6404 for victory number 1. Lt L.M. Nixon is killed"

I noticed the last name Nixon

Nixon is not a common last name in the States or is it.

That's why I wonder

Could he be somehow related to your former or coming(seen from 1918)
President Richard Nixon ?

Markus

em2nought

05-18-18, 02:36 PM

Sailor Steve

05-18-18, 08:36 PM

I would say pretty common.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_(surname))

This may not seem like too many names, but remember these are only the ones who were famous in their own time.

mapuc

05-19-18, 11:34 AM

Thank you Steve.

Could see in the link(wiki) you posted, there are many with that surname.

Keep up the great work you do with the war in the air hundred years ago.

Edit
And not to forget
Jim, who are doing a great job too.

Markus

Gerald

06-02-18, 05:16 AM

A small tank designed by a famous French car maker and a brilliant army officer saw its first action. Its inspired design still lives on in the tanks of today, 100 years later.

On 31 May 1918, the German army launches a sudden attack near the Forest of Retz near Ploisy in the north-east of France. It is the last year of World War One, and the Germans are desperately trying to beat the Western Allies.

A British blockade is crippling the German economy. Those back at home are suffering shortages of fuel and food. The German Empire faces starvation and defeat.

As the French units at Retz try to resist the onslaught, they are joined by reinforcements. Among them is a new tank: the FT. Compared to the giant, lumbering British tanks that have been used with mixed results for the past 18 months, these are tiny. There is only room for two people inside them.

But they are remarkably effective. The 30 tanks rushed to this battle help to push the Germans back. The tanks only stop advancing because the accompanying infantry cannot keep up with them.

At the site of this action, a century later, there is now a plaque, commemorating the first use of what is arguably the ancestor of every modern tank. The tiny FT is a paradigm of far-sighted design.

And it owes its existence to an unlikely pairing: a pragmatic artillery officer and one of France’s most renowned carmakers.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180531-the-wwi-tank-that-helped-change-warfare-forever

The modern tanks had been born.

mapuc

06-25-18, 02:58 PM

VIASAT History is showing a documentary series called.

The Great War in Numbers.

https://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/great-war-in-numbers/

I missed the first episode, have since then tried to see as many I can.

Markus

Sailor Steve

09-02-18, 07:51 PM

A confession:

When I joined in the '100 Years' thread my main intent was to report on details of major naval events. I ended up trying to record all the U-boat sinkings and all the aviation details, mainly the aerial battles. In an effort to get more numbers I purchased several books on the aces and shoot-downs of the war. In "Bloody April" 1917 I found that it was running beyond what I could keep up with in a single day, and started falling behind. I ended up having to drop one or the other. I first thought of dropping the aviation side, as SubSim is after all a site dedicated to submarine history and warfare. I ran into the problem that I had spent a lot of money on the aviation books and the u-boat side could be done by anyone who was willing to spend a lot of time looking at www.boat.net.

So I dropped the u-boat listings. That worked for awhile, but the aerial side was even worse than I had thought. September 1918 was called "Black September" by the British. An example of that came home today. On September 2 1914 the Germans shot down 74 Allied planes. The French countered with 48 shoot-downs. I'm not sure how many the British had since there is no day-by-day book for the British. However you count it more than 120 aerial victories were recorded this day.

My confession is that I'm no longer able to list every single kill. There just isn't enough time in a day, let alone the other things I'm trying to do. I can't list all the kills. I can't even list all the aces' kills. For the last little while, but especially from today on I'm forced to only list kills made by double aces - pilots who have 10 kills or more. It's still going to be fairly big.

I ultimately plan to go back and add in every single aircraft and u-boat claim, but that will have to be at my leisure, and it won't be 100 years after the fact.

I'm sorry, but at this point it's the best I can do.

Sailor Steve

09-29-18, 06:37 PM

Frank Luke - The Controversy:

Every American aviation fan knows the story. Frank Luke joined the 27th Aero Squadron on July 31, 1918. During the month of August he gained a reputation as a loner, conceited, braggart, liar, even coward. He would pretend to have engine problems while on training flights, disappear for a time, then return home with tales of having attacked the enemy. Never any confirmation, but stories of the "Huns" he had shot down. At one point he claimed to have shot a German off of Major Hartney's tail.

Harold Evans Hartney had an interesting career of his own. Born in Ontario, Canada, he joined the war early on. As an FE.2 pilot he claimed to have been shot down by Manfred von Richthofen, though it was more likely Paul Strähle. This was the fourth time Hartney had been wounded. After recovering he recieved an unexpected and most unusual order, to return to Canada where he would be transferred to the United States Air Service to take command of the 27th Aero Squadron. There was a rule that American troops could not be commanded by a foreign officer. This was overcome by President Woodrow Wilson himself, making Harold Hartney and Major Geoffrey Bonnell American Citizens on the spot. Hartney commanded the 27th all through their training and posting to the Western Front.

Of the event in question, Hartney had found that he had an enemy plane on his tail. After an evasive maneuver he looked again and the enemy was gone. Did the German overshoot and go looking for an easier victim? Did Hartney's maneuver throw him off? Or did Frank Luke indeed shoot the enemy off his commander's tail, or at least make him run? While Luke's reputation as a braggart and a liar spread, Hartney himself was inclined to beleive the boy from Arizona. When Hartney was promoted to Lt Colonel and assigned command of the 1st Pursuit Group, Captain Alfred Grant took over as commander of the 27th Aero. Grant didn't like Frank Luke, and didn't trust him. Then, on September 12, Frank Luke pulled his usual stunt of faking engine problems and disappearing. This time, however, he went alone after a German balloon, and shot it down in front of witnesses. Then, on the 14th, two more. The next day it waws three. Two more on the 16th. Five on the 18th. And then nothing until the 28th, when he got two more. The ten days off was due to his enforced leave after losing his friend Joe Wehner, and then finding himself given an easy behind-the-lines mission on his return.

Every American aviation fan knows the story. On his last day Frank Luke shot down three more German balloons, was forced to land, faced off a company of German infantry, pulled his two .45 Colt automatics and killed six of them before they shot him dead. It's in this last part that the controversy comes. Luke had been grounded by Captain Grant, due to his continuing refusal to obey orders. He took a SPAD up anyway and beyond question shot down three more German balloons. But what happened after that? After the War, Captain Frederick Zinn single-handedly created the concept of "leaving no man behind". He stayed in Europe so he could have access to German records regarding nearly two hundred American airmen still listed as "Missing". Under Zinn's direction a Captain McCormick interviewed surviving citizens of Murvaux, the town closest to where Frank Luke disappeared. McCormick interviewed fourteen denizens of Murvaux, and then dug up the body of the American aviator buried there. The Germans had left the wristwatch behind when they looted the body for souveniers. Beyond question it belonged to Frank Luke. The townspeople signed an affadavit attesting that Luke had landed near the town. When approached by German troops he drew his "revolver" (singular) to defend himself. "A moment afterward he fell deaad following a serious wound he recieved in the chest." One of the problems with this story is that none of the citizens of Murvaux were fluent in English and Capatin McCormick spoke almost no French. Years later Fred Zinn, who was fluent in French, interviewed the surviving Murvaux citizens himself. Zinn discovered that none of the French were allowed closer than 100 metres to the airplane, and most were much farther away than that. How much did they really see? One account said that Frank pulled his pistol and fired a shot into the air, but none of the Germans fired back. Another account says the Germans abused the body, one of them kicking it. Against that is the fact that they French were kept well back, and a soldier prodding the body with his boot to see if it was really dead could, at range, be taken for a kick. The testimony in Zinn's documentation is certain about one thing, though - the German soldiers did not fire at Frank Luke.

Then there was Bernard Mangels. former Leutnant der Reserve, commanding Ballonzug 35. There is no contemporary report, but in a letter to historian Royal Frey Mangels says "Before Frank Luke had a chance to open fire, we let loose with a machine gun barrage. The pilot lost control of his aircraft which crashed with great impact near the balloon. Fortunately it did not catch fire. When our people rushed up to the wreckage to rescue the unfortunate from the desperate situation, he showed only weak signs of life. He passed away shortly thereafter. A machine gun bullet which hit the radiator ricocheted and struck his chest. Our people removed the body of the brave enemy and put it in an empty room in our camp." No, gun battle on the ground, no strafing of troops, no abuse of the body.

On the other hand the French said the pilot landed the plane and climbed out, apparently trying to reach a nearby stream. Everyone agrees that, like the Red Baron, there was only one bullet hole, in the chest. Also factors in the equation are the prejudices of the witnesses. The French wanted to make the Germans look as bad as possible, which likely influenced their testimony. Bernard Mangels was by all accounts a kindly man, and took offense to the suggestion that men under his command would abuse the body of a fallen enemy. Both testimonies are based on memories from years, even decades earlier.

On November 20 1918 Captain Alfred Grant put in the request that Frank Luke be awarded the Medal of Honor. The original request lists his accomplishments while alive, and have nothing to do with the manner of his death. By the time the Medal was awarded the citation only contained the (probably spurious) events of the day he died. Though Eddie Rickenbacker was the first to be recommended for the Medal of Honor, Frank Luke was the first to actually receive the award. Joseph Wehner was also recommended for the MoH, but proceedings were dropped at the request of his mother, who felt her son wouldn't want it.

After the Great War ended Frank Luke was glorified in books by Norman S. Hall (not the Norman Hall who co-wrote Mutiny on the Bounty and was himself a WW1 pilot), Arch Whitehouse and Harold Hartney himself. Those books, especially the first two, are filled with grandiose stories of Luke's amazing accomplishments, almost all of them provably false. What is the truth about Frank Luke's death? The only certainty is that we'll probably never know.

Criticism of Frank Luke:
"There is only one sad thing about it, he can't keep it up. He will not stick to formations. I have warned him. I told him he will be picked off sure as fate, perhaps today, perhaps tomorrow, but he does not seem to be able to understand such things. We simply have to trust to chance."
-Major Harold Hartney, interview with George Seldes.

"It isn't courage exactly. He has no imagination. He can't imagine anything happening to him. He thinks he's invincible. If he ever finds himself he may be almost as good as he thinks he is."
Lt Jerry Vasconcells, squadron-mate

Praise for Frank Luke:
"If Frank Luke were alive tody, I wouln't be here."
-Edward V. Rickenbacker, during a parade in his honor as America's "Ace of Aces". Luke was America's leading ace at the time of his death, and Rickenbacker always maintained that had the "Arizona Balloon Buster" lived he would have retained that title.

HunterICX

10-01-18, 04:58 AM

They Shall Not Grow Old

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Do1p1CWyc

On the centenary of the end of First World War, Academy Award-winner Peter Jackson (The Lord of the Rings trilogy) presents the World Premiere of an extraordinary new work showing the Great War as you have never seen it.

This unique film brings into high definition the human face of the First World War as part of a special London Film Festival presentation alongside a live Q&A with director Peter Jackson hosted by Mark Kermode.

Using state of the art technology to restore original archival footage which is more than a 100-years old, Jackson brings to life the people who can best tell this story: the men who were there. Driven by a personal interest in the First World War, Jackson set out to bring to life the day-to-day experience of its soldiers. After months immersed in the BBC and Imperial War Museums’ archives, narratives and strategies on how to tell this story began to emerge for Jackson. Using the voices of the men involved, the film explores the reality of war on the front line; their attitudes to the conflict; how they ate; slept and formed friendships, as well what their lives were like away from the trenches during their periods of downtime.

Jackson and his team have used cutting edge techniques to make the images of a hundred years ago appear as if they were shot yesterday. The transformation from black and white footage to colourised footage can be seen throughout the film revealing never before seen details. Reaching into the mists of time, Jackson aims to give these men voices, investigate the hopes and fears of the veterans, the humility and humanity that represented a generation changed forever by a global war.

I've seen some restoration to HD and colour the last few years when it comes to documentaries of WW1 and WW2 but this....this is something else.

Sadly I don't live in the UK because this is something I definitely would have wanted to watch on the big screen.

Buddahaid

11-01-18, 09:32 PM

Down to the wire. What a hug endeavor, and I thank you for enriching my knowledge of WWI. Cheers, mates!

succerpunch

11-13-18, 05:34 AM

Are we going to do this again in 2039?

Sailor Steve

11-13-18, 08:06 AM

That depends on what you mean by "we". If you want to do the research, collate the facts, type it up and post it every day for six years you are more than welcome. If by "we" you mean "is someone else going to do this" then I don't know. I am reasonably certain that I won't be around to take on a task like that, and if I am still around I will be 89 years old when it starts, 95 years old when it ends and 101 years old when the anniversary of the Treaty of San Francisco takes place.

Incidentally I moved your post to this thread as '100 Years Ago Today' is still operational and will be for several more months.

mapuc

12-08-18, 07:04 PM

Had to dig this not so old thread up
(don't want to post comments in Steve and Jim's thread)

Can't remember when and what exactly Steve said before the end of WWI.

This thread will not end on Nov. 11 it will continue 1 year more until….then something about peace treaty.

This didn't surprise me at all.

In every big event, there is always an aftermath, which can go on for years

Military
Political-Geopolitical
and
Society

Markus

Sailor Steve

12-08-18, 07:57 PM

The Treaty of Versailles was signed on June 28, 1919, exactly five years to the day after the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. We plan to keep reporting up to that time, since so many interesting things were going on until that day. After that? We'll see what happens.

mapuc

12-18-18, 12:24 PM

Some thoughts about the Civil war in Russia

Was it as a result after the war against Germany or was it as a result after the communist had overthrown the Czar ?

Or both ?

Markus

Sailor Steve

12-18-18, 01:24 PM

The Revolution took place in response to bad management and widespread corruption in the Czar's government. The corruption was mainly because of war profiteering, which left the Russian people starving. The Civil War took place between rival factions after the Revolution, and was concerned with who would run the new government. Thus the World War led directly to the Revolution but was only indirectly connected to the Civil War.

mapuc

01-26-19, 06:05 PM

I have to give Steve a massiv thank you for writing about this
Paris Peace Conference in the "100 years ago today"-thread

It have become even more interesting to follow.

I have many times read and heard historian saying the key or was it the seed to WWII

Are to be found in the peace treaty

That's why I read each line in Steves ongoing posting about this Paris Peace Conference.
To see if I can spot it. I'm, to be honest, doubtful if I can.

So Thank you Steve.

And not to forget Jimbunas posting about the aftermath of The Great War.

Markus

Sailor Steve

01-26-19, 11:30 PM

That's why I read each line in Steves ongoing posting about this Paris Peace Conference.
To see if I can spot it. I'm, to be honest, doubtful if I can.

The Peace Conference still has another five months to go. Who knows what will or won't be obvious? I sure don't.

Jimbuna

01-27-19, 07:57 AM

I'm guessing it will be the seed of so much resentment among many people and none more so than for a certain German national who will ferment it into something that will prove catastrophic for not only Europe but all of the world :03:

Aktungbby

02-07-19, 12:58 PM

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/They_Shall_Not_Grow_Old.jpg/220px-They_Shall_Not_Grow_Old.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:They_Shall_Not_Grow_Old.jpg)
They Shall Not Grow Old is a 2018 documentary film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_film) directed and produced by Peter Jackson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Jackson). The film was created using original footage of World War I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) from the Imperial War Museum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_War_Museum)'s archives, most of it previously unseen, alongside audio from BBC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC) and IWM interviews of British (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people) servicemen who fought in the conflict. Most of the footage has been colourised (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_colorization) and transformed with modern production techniques, with the addition of sound effects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_effect) and voice acting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_acting) to be more evocative and feel closer to the soldiers' actual experiences.
It is Jackson's first documentary as director, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_Shall_Not_Grow_Old (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_Shall_Not_Grow_Old)

Buddahaid

05-03-19, 09:46 PM

I'm really trying to follow this but it's like the boardroom meeting from hell. I don't know how you can relate it!

Sailor Steve

05-04-19, 12:35 AM

The above was posted in the '100 Years' thread. I took the liberty of moving it here to avoid distractions in that thread.

As to the question I hope my answer isn't as convoluted as the Peace Conference itself.

I started off with the simple idea of reading the day's proceedings and distilling it down into a simple post that would give a general idea of what happened. I thought it would be no problem. As the meetings got longer it became harder to do that. Part of the problem I have is that I find the wrangling and arguing among the members to be fascinating. I've never been overly political, and suddenly having a fly-on-the-wall view of some of the most important political discussions of the twentieth century was just amazing.

I sometimes forget that other people have other interests, and this isn't everybody's cup of tea. Unfortunately I'm crippled by a mild case of OCD which makes me way to pedantic.

Doing it this way hasn't made it any easier. Distilling it all down meant reading each day's proceedings at least twice, and sometimes more. On the other hand, while it may look that way, this isn't just a copy-and-paste job. The original notes are filled with page-markers, footnotes and flat-out mistakes in the typing, all of which have to be removed or corrected. Then there is my penchant for rendering things into the modern tense. In the end before I post any of this I have read it thoroughly.

So - the Short Version:

The Council of Four - the leaders of Britain, France, Italy and the United States, all sat down to draw up a Peace Treaty with the former Central Powers - Germany and Austria-Hungary. Working under them was the Council of Foreign Ministers. Who they were should be obvious. They had to decide how culpable the Central Powers, especially Germany, had been. In the interest of fairness they recognized that both sides owed each other for war losses, so they tried to confine the claims for German reparations to the countries Germany had actually invaded.

Another complication was that the Austro-Hungarian Empire no longer existed, and several new Nations had sprung out of its remains and from some other sources - Austria and Hungary of course, but also Poland, Croatia, and a host of others I can't remember offhand. This is made worse by the other things under consideration. Biggest is the League of Nations. They feel that many problems they are being asked to consider now should be put off and handled by the new League. They are having to deal with questions like: Should Germany be paid for the underwater Transatlantic Cables laid at their expense? If these were just taken over by the Allies they could just be handed back. But many of them were cut, and can't be repaired; they will have to be relaid. Many more were diverted to Allied destinations, and are now being used for huge amounts of international traffic. The could be handed back, but that means that all German traffic would have to go through Halifax or New York. The complications are huge, and the discussions cut into the main goal, which is to create a Peace Treaty with Germany.

Then came the Big Rift. Italy wanted the port of Fiume, which by the Treaty of London had already been awarded to Croatia. At this point the Italians have walked out and refuse to deal with what is now the Council of Three until their demands are met. Doubly unfortunate is that this is happening right as the German delegates are coming to Paris, and the Allies are showing less solidarity than before.

I'll be honest: I was so relieved with the signing of the Armistice last November. I though I was out of it, and I have several projects of my own that I've left untouched for four years. There is an end in sight. The Peace Treaty was signed on June 28. There are meetings going all the way through December, but they don't seem to be too bad.

So my dilemma is: Keep on doing it this way, which leaves the entire conversations intact, saving long speeches that go nowhere, or go back to distilling it down into terms everyone can understand and actually enjoy the read. The latter is probably the best, but it will mean doing twice the work I'm doing now just to try to make it clear while not losing too many interesting points.

Opinions?