View Full Version : We tortured some folks.
Tribesman
08-02-14, 07:15 PM
We did some things that were contrary to our values.
Now not wanting to go through the whole debate with people who think torture is acceptable and the useless information it gained was worth the indelible stain it has left on the US.
This is to explore the "special relationship".
Will the senate agree to Britains request to censor the parts which deal with Britains role in this fiaso?
It is important to Britain as it looks like they will face massive payouts through the British courts if their role in gross violations of human rights(war crimes)is confirmed by their allies.
I think this thread will be full of rational, calm discourse with a welcoming embrace of American and European viewpoints.
Meanwhile back in reality, I'm not really surprised, a good nod to Obama for bringing it up, even if he hasn't managed to sort Gitmo yet, but it's a step forward in my opinion.
Of course it's going to be a lot of egg on face for the UK, but we've had that coming for a while, can't have your cake and eat it, and we're just going to have to man up and take the lawsuits as they come.
Of course, there are going to be plenty that state that this was all done in the interest of the protection of the public against terrorists, but they tend to then tie themselves in knots when that same arguement is used against certain newspaper reporters and whistle blowers. Again, can't have your cake...
Naturally though, Obama really doesn't stand a chance, the guy could walk on water and the Republicans would decry him for not swimming with the 'good honest Christian American folk', so I don't expect him to be remembered fondly for this action on this forum...heck, I don't expect him to be remembered fondly on this forum at all, so there you have it. :03:
Anyway, I'm sure that this discussion will go absolutely smoothly and not need moderator attention at all. :know:
Armistead
08-02-14, 10:35 PM
Obama's too busy blowing up civilians with drones to be seen as a hero on the torture front or to complain about Israel. I mean, I'm all for drones, but with him complaining about torture or Israel for basically doing the same thing rather hypocritical. I imagine children blown up with a drone is torture for them to go their lives disfigured in pain...
Jimbuna
08-03-14, 06:26 AM
Anyway, I'm sure that this discussion will go absolutely smoothly and not need moderator attention at all. :know:
Most definitely :know:
Catfish
08-03-14, 06:34 AM
Has been in the press here for years, nothing new.
Germany allowed the CIA planes to cross german airspace to Poland for torturing outside of the US, so nothing to boast or criticize about in Germany - we knew exactly what this was for.
After all the hubbub, or better the lack thereof in anglo-saxon space, i guess it will all end like the "Hornberger Schiessen" :yep:
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornberger_Schie%C3%9Fen)
"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any political movement may never be judged by its ambitions (~goals?) it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation."
Werner Heisenberg, german physician (1901 – 1976)
Tribesman
08-03-14, 06:54 AM
Germany allowed the CIA planes to cross german airspace to Poland for torturing outside of the US, so nothing to boast or criticize about in Germany - we knew exactly what this was for.
Yes, but this relates to British territory being used for the torture, British officials being directly involved in the torture ...and more importantly British politicians repeatedly going on record to lie about it.
Plus of course the looming prospect of British taxpayers having to pay large amounts of compensation for it.
Yes, but this relates to British territory being used for the torture, British officials being directly involved in the torture ...and more importantly British politicians repeatedly going on record to lie about it.
Plus of course the looming prospect of British taxpayers having to pay large amounts of compensation for it.
I replaced British with Polish and got the same.
The CIA gave us 15 millions USD and we got sued for 230 thousands Euros.
Seems a good deal. Oh wait...
Rockstar
08-06-14, 09:02 AM
We did some things that were contrary to our values.
Now not wanting to go through the whole debate with people who think torture is acceptable and the useless information it gained was worth the indelible stain it has left on the US.
Then why did you even bother confronting others and bother them with your opinion about torture?
This is to explore the "special relationship".
Will the senate agree to Britains request to censor the parts which deal with Britains role in this fiaso?
It is important to Britain as it looks like they will face massive payouts through the British courts if their role in gross violations of human rights(war crimes)is confirmed by their allies.
If a government uses torture as a means to obtain information. Then according to your way of thinking it must therefore be justifiable. As your own words on another topic leads me to believe you contend no one should argue with what the governement says.
Quote:
Rockstar: Let it be known to one and all here Israel does have my full support in their mission.
Tribesman: So when your government says some Israeli actions are indefensible and unjustifiable you are willing to try and justify and defend those actions. :har:
.
Tribesman
08-06-14, 12:04 PM
Nice fail Rockstar:rotfl2:
problems with English again?:yep:
I think you should have taken your own words on board....
Farked up as some of my writing skills and reasoning etc etc and so forth may be.
You farked up on them again.:yep:
If a government uses torture as a means to obtain information. Then according to your way of thinking it must therefore be justifiable.
No justifiable is justifiable, something is justifiable or it isn't.
The government spent a long time trying to justify torture, it had a swarm of fans on this forum trying to justify it too.
Now it has said oooops, we got it wrong
I wonder if all its fans will also say ooops, we got it wrong.:hmmm:
As your own words on another topic leads me to believe you contend no one should argue with what the governement says.
"are you willing" does not mean "you shouldn't" , it simply questions your wisdom in doing so considering the specifics of the subject in question and the context of those specifics.
Since in this case the government has completely reversed its views, which one of its opposing views are you going to agree with simply because it is a government that had it?
In the matter where you are quoting from.
If a party who as a matter of routine goes to great lengths in its attempts to justify actions by another party decides on this specific case to not even attempt a justification, do you think it is wise for you to attempt a justification of those specifics anyway?
Catfish
08-06-14, 01:06 PM
"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any nation may never be judged by its goals and values it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation."
Werner Heisenberg (1901 – 1976)
Doesn't this say all that needs to be said ?
Loss of credibility, from drones and cynically-called "collateral damage", to eavesdropping own and foreign common people (and even the own senate), to torture.
What "freedom" are we talking about ? Not that our own government does not the same things, or at least tries to. Vassals indeed.
What is happening now has been the wet dream of Gestapo and Stasi. They were amateurs, in comparison.
It seems the new USA are much more anti-americanistic themselves, than their worst critics in Europe, when it comes to comparing their founding principles with what is common practice now. Seriously, what happened to the anglo-saxon world after WW2, that it became what it is ?
Thousands of cameras in London, visiting Orwell's house makes you a suspect - what the hell is going on there :hmmm:
Is 9/11 the cause ? This event serves as a justification for anything that used to be criminal before, under normal conditions.
http://media.tumblr.com/3d0cd0681b0ff3d046c9d0c67740235e/tumblr_inline_muf8b8DXrN1roni0j.gif
Catfish
08-06-14, 01:14 PM
^ There you go, but not really funny.
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/nov/14/torture-inquiry-gibson-report-intelligence-detainees
^ There you go, but not really funny.
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/nov/14/torture-inquiry-gibson-report-intelligence-detainees
I wasn't referring to that. :03:
Tango589
08-06-14, 01:56 PM
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm260/tango589/popcorn-1.gif
Another balanced, well thought out discussion between civilized people that isn't going to go to hell in a hand basket before you can say 'Bob's your Uncle.'
:haha:
Catfish
08-06-14, 02:25 PM
I wasn't referring to that. :03:
I know you're not that bad, don't believe everything you hear ..
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/2008-12-17-dont-believe-everything-you-hear_zpsbec54a8c.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/penaeus/media/2008-12-17-dont-believe-everything-you-hear_zpsbec54a8c.jpg.html)
But really, i did not understand the joker/Batman joke (?) :hmm2:
A pre-emption of the direction this thread is likely to take when Rockstar and Tribesman are done with it. :03:
Is 9/11 the cause ? This event serves as a justification for anything that used to be criminal before, under normal conditions.
It does not in hindsight as it seems quite often.. so yes this could apply:
"It is always difficult to judge political decisions, when their attainability lies far in the future. This is why i think that any nation may never be judged by its goals and values it boasts about, but by the means it uses for its implementation."
Werner Heisenberg (1901 – 1976)
Yet i wonder how Mr Obama would act if faced with the same crisis though.
One things is passing judgment yet another one is dealing with issues at hand in time of crisis.
donna52522
08-06-14, 10:40 PM
Every County or Regime as used torture...either now or in the past. Even religions have used it (possibly still). If the torture of one captured turd may save the lives of many decent human beings, then I am pro torture.
You have to decide for yourself, should bad be done for the greater good?
It depends on what you consider to be the greater good. I'm sure that there were people in 1943 Germany that thought the eradication of the Jewish people from Europe was in the interest of the greater good.
donna52522
08-07-14, 01:33 AM
True TarJak , but as a personal opinion, not popular or state.....Would you torture a rat in order to find the main infestation?
Or would you sit back and debate until the rats overwhelm you?
Tribesman
08-07-14, 01:38 AM
Every County or Regime as used torture...either now or in the past Yes, but a long time ago countries agreed that torture is very bad and should not be used.
If the torture of one captured turd may save the lives of many decent human beings, then I am pro torture.
Thats the argument they used, they have now said it was bollox.
You have to decide for yourself, should bad be done for the greater good? In this case its should bad be done for no actual purpose and no good?
It depends on what you consider to be the greater good. I'm sure that there were people ... Well bugger me Tarjak, that is one hell of a put down of the view given, I don't think that can be topped:up:
Would you torture a rat in order to find the main infestation?
That is a bad way to go after what Tarjak wrote.
It has echos of "the eternal jew".
If I may provide the government spiel of the time...for the greater good of course
The Eternal Jew is the first film that not only gives a full picture of Jewry, but provides a broad treatment of the life and effects of this parasitic race using genuine material taken from real life. It also shows why healthy peoples in every age have responded to the Jews with disgust and loathing, often enough expressing their feelings though deeds.
Just like rats, the Jews 2000 years ago moved from the Middle East to Egypt, at that time a flourishing land. Even then they had all the criminal traits they display today, even then they were the enemies of hard-working, creative peoples.
Buddahaid
08-07-14, 01:49 AM
It depends on what you consider to be the greater good. I'm sure that there were people in 1943 Germany that thought the eradication of the Jewish people from Europe was in the interest of the greater good.
And for what cause?
http://bytwerk.com/gpa/posters/dragon.jpg
Well the sarcastic image doesn't load. Forget it.
It depends on what you consider to be the greater good. I'm sure that there were people in 1943 Germany that thought the eradication of the Jewish people from Europe was in the interest of the greater good.
Yes we can trip with this till the cows come home.
So how moral it would be when having oportunity to save lives by torture… even with slim chance of success and not doing it.
True TarJak , but as a personal opinion, not popular or state.....Would you torture a rat in order to find the main infestation?
Or would you sit back and debate until the rats overwhelm you?
No, because it can't tell me where the infestation is, whether I torture it or not.
Yes we can trip with this till the cows come home.
So how moral it would be when having oportunity to save lives by torture… even with slim chance of success and not doing it.
As Tribes rightly pointed out torture does not provide effective intelligence. This is not just his or my opinion, it is also the published opinion of many intelligence agencies from across the world.
The end does not justify the means, despite Hollywood's portrayal of the subject.
Torture does does not provide reliable inteligence yet my question stands.
donna52522
08-07-14, 02:22 AM
"No, because it can't tell me where the infestation is, whether I torture it or not".
How would you know. if you didn't torture the rat to find out...
And was answered.
So you would not take that chance of saving lives.. well ok.
And you would be happy to deliberately harm someone and still not same those same lives. I find that not OK.
"No, because it can't tell me where the infestation is, whether I torture it or not".
How would you know. if you didn't torture the rat to find out...
When was the last time you spoke to a rattus rattus and got any meaningful reply?
And you would be happy to deliberately harm someone and still not same those same lives. I find that not OK.
What makes you think so.
You would never be sure till you try.. Right.
To be clear I was not talking about asking every second afgan where OBL is.
It was more like asking OBL .
What makes you think so.
You would never be sure till you try.. Right.
Would you or wouldn't you?
donna52522
08-07-14, 03:03 AM
I would...If it meant saving innocent live, like our children.
donna52522
08-07-14, 03:14 AM
Where would you stand TarJak, for our children, or for terrorism?....Would you protect children, or give them up?
I would...If it meant saving innocent live, like our children.
And if it meant not saving lives? Or caused more loss of life because you got duff intel?
Where would you stand TarJak, for our children, or for terrorism?....Would you protect children, or give them up?
I stand for my children and would not give them up. That doesn't mean I would choose to deliberately harm someone when there are other alternatives.
Torture doesn't work so why consider it when taking that route makes you no better than the terrorist you want to harm.
Torture doesn't work so why consider it when taking that route makes you no better than the terrorist you want to harm.
Actually torture works and is used in cases where time is critical.
donna52522
08-07-14, 04:01 AM
That's sour sauce TarJak, it's not an answer, it's a poor excuse.
But look on the bright side, maybe next time you'll get it right :)
Actually torture works and is used in cases where time is critical.
That's interesting considering the lack of acceptance of that opinion by many intelligence services. And experts in the field:
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=effectiveness+of+torture&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=j0XjU_DYDInd8AWGk4GABw&ved=0CBkQgQMwAA
United States Army field manual, explains that torture "is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."[4] Not only is torture ineffective at gathering reliable information, but it also increases the difficulty of gathering information from a source in the future.
That's sour sauce TarJak, it's not an answer, it's a poor excuse.
But look on the bright side, maybe next time you'll get it right :)
Therein lies the problem. If people select an action without exploring the alternatives they usually end up looking silly.
That's interesting considering the lack of acceptance of that opinion by many intelligence services. And experts in the field:
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=effectiveness+of+torture&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=j0XjU_DYDInd8AWGk4GABw&ved=0CBkQgQMwAA
.
Well.. When time is not an issue there may be other better way of extracting information.
More reliable…
In cases where time is critical you take chances.. see not all is black and wihite.
I'm quite sure mr Obama is somehow spinning the issue since it is political matter in USA.
But the "ticking time bomb" situation is a myth in real life and only exists in the minds of Hollywood scriptwriters.
Show us a real life case where this has actually happened.
No it is not myth.
There is legislation here regarding this.
In USA it may be matter of hollywood.
No it is not myth.
Real life examples please.
Laws can be based on theoretical situations.
Real life examples please.
Laws can be based on theoretical situations.
I can't help you with specific examples but I think there should be some old material.
This used to be hot potato here as well when suicide bombers roamed back in 2000.
I can't help you with specific examples but I think there should be some old material.
This used to be hot potato here as well when suicide bombers roamed back in 2000.
So you have no actual evidence that these situations exist and where torture actually helped in one of these situations?
So you have no actual evidence that these situations exist and where torture actually helped in one of these situations?
No but maybe you will find somthing yourself on the web.
I'm disinclined to do your research for you. I can find plenty of evidence to support my position, but you can't so you ask me to do it for you?:har:
Feuer Frei!
08-07-14, 07:29 AM
Does torture work?
Easy answer.
Ask the CIA.
Plenty of real-life examples there i'm sure.
Does torture work?
Easy answer.
Ask the CIA.
Plenty of real-life examples there i'm sure.
:hmmm: I don't think so. There's apparently a 600 odd page Senate Intelligence Committee report which says not. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/cia-interrogations-911-senate_n_5643150.html Where exactly are the time critical examples from the CIA?
Try again.
Tribesman
08-07-14, 07:33 AM
Where would you stand TarJak, for our children, or for terrorism?....Would you protect children, or give them up?
won't somebody save the children:haha:
The thought terminating cliché:up:
So to carry that on into the angle introduced earlier.
an intelligent man who used clichés and platitudes to justify his actions and the role he played in the Jewish genocide of World War II.
these phrases are symptomatic of an absence of thought.
his cliché-ridden language produced on the stand, as it had evidently done in his official life, a kind of macabre comedy.
Feuer Frei!
08-07-14, 07:34 AM
:hmmm: I don't think so. There's apparently a 6000 odd page Senate Intelligence Committee report which says not.
Try again.
Says not? That they didn't use 'enhanced interrogation' techniques?
Or that they worked?
Maybe MH can pick up on this and do the research.:haha:
Tribesman
08-07-14, 07:37 AM
Does torture work?
Easy answer.
Ask the CIA.
Plenty of real-life examples there i'm sure.
The man from Del Monte he say No.
Or as someone else put it...There's apparently a 6000 odd page Senate Intelligence Committee report which says not.
Try again.
That's the whole point of the topic.:yep:
I'm disinclined to do your research for you. I can find plenty of evidence to support my position, but you can't so you ask me to do it for you?:har:
Ahh.. I did not see it this way lol
Nevermind.
Says not? That they didn't use 'enhanced interrogation' techniques?
Or that they worked?
Maybe MH can pick up on this and do the research.:haha:
That they didn't work.
The voluminous report does not state that the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" - which included measures such as "waterboarding," or simulated drowning, on captured al Qaeda militants - produced no information of value whatsoever, the officials said.
But it asserts that such tactics yielded no information that would have been "otherwise unavailable" to spy agencies through normal interrogations aimed at foiling further plots in the aftermath of the 2001 attacks on New York and Washington, the officials said.
Committee investigators also concluded that the agency misled other executive branch agencies and Congress by claiming that only by using harsh methods did the agency achieve other counter-terrorism breakthroughs that otherwise would not have been possible. The report will criticize some CIA officials by name, the officials said.
Ergo torture doesn't work more effectively than other methods. Ergo, why use torture at all, when not using "enhanced techniques" is just as effective and keeps you out of the very murky legal and moral territory that the CIA and the US government are now in?
Ahh.. I did not see it this way lol
Nevermind.
That's OK I don't mind at all. :shucks:
Feuer Frei!
08-07-14, 07:46 AM
Well, does torture work was debated and thought to work by MH.
His viewpoint.
He was asked for real-life examples by TarJak.
Am i correct so far?
Mr Dick Cheney says hi.
Mulder says: the proof is out there.
I'm inclined to think he may be onto something there.
Anyways, i'll leave MH to take up the batton.
Let's aproach this issue from another angle.
As mentioned here some security services went into great length to avoid legal issues like for example doing their thing in other countries and so on…
Do you think they do it because the method does not work yet they are lazy and evil…?
Well, does torture work was debated and thought to work by MH.
His viewpoint.
He was asked for real-life examples by TarJak.
Am i correct so far?
Mr Dick Cheney says hi.
Mulder says: the proof is out there.
I'm inclined to think he may be onto something there.
Anyways, i'll leave MH to take up the batton.
Nice try, but he was asked for real life examples of a "ticking time bomb" scenario where time pressure meant that torture was the ONLY way that information could be obtained.
So far nothing...
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1158287/tumbleweed-o.gif
Let's aproach this issue from another angle.
As mentioned here some security services went into great length to avoid legal issues like for example doing their thing in other countries and so on…
Do you think they do it because the method does not work yet they are lazy and evil…?
I've no idea what they were thinking. As I originally stated, there are many evils dressed up as being for the greater good. Doesn't make them less evil, which is entirely the point.
Nice try, but he was asked for real life examples of a "ticking time bomb" scenario where time pressure meant that torture was the ONLY way that information could be obtained.
So far nothing...
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1158287/tumbleweed-o.gif
Well maybe one of the hamas exchange prisoners will tell you about it .
I've no idea what they were thinking. As I originally stated, there are many evils dressed up as being for the greater good. Doesn't make them less evil, which is entirely the point.
Yes and sort of cliche answer.
Anyway you choose to dance around it, hurting someone to get information you can get just as easily as you can when not hurting them makes no sense.
Unless you are doing it out of spite, or as some form of weird revenge. Whilst that may be described as human nature by some, I'd call both of those options evil. What do you call them?
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3864049/the-joker-gif-o.gif
Anyway you choose to dance around it, hurting someone to get information you can get just as easily as you can when not hurting them makes no sense.
Unless you are doing it out of spite, or as some form of weird revenge. Whilst that may be described as human nature by some, I'd call both of those options evil. What do you call them?
Is it not sort of hollywoodish theory.?
Has it occurred to you that those people may be as moral as you yet instead of passing judgments they put the morality to the test for genuine real life reasons.
Is it not sort of hollywoodish theory.?
Which statement are you referring to? The first or the second?
If the first then, No I stand by what I said. Why hurt someone if you don't have to?
If the second, then No I stand by what I have said. Why hurt someone if you don't have to?
How is that Hollywoodish?
Has it occurred to you that those people may be as moral as you yet instead of passing judgments they put the morality to the test for genuine real life reasons.
I've no idea, nor care how moral they may think they are. If they are hurting people for no good reason, then they are doing something that I consider evil.
These arguments for torture and make-believe situations are irrelevant if torture doesn't work in the first place. If those who advocate it can't prove that it works, then they have already lost the debate.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3864049/the-joker-gif-o.gif
More like:
http://slickzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Popping-of-popcorn.gif
These arguments for torture and make-believe situations are irrelevant if torture doesn't work in the first place. If those who advocate it can't prove that it works, then they have already lost the debate.
Fine with me.:up:
HunterICX
08-07-14, 09:58 AM
More like:
http://slickzine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Popping-of-popcorn.gif
About damn time too you brought out the popcorn.
http://i.imgur.com/Df9TBPz.gif
These arguments for torture and make-believe situations are irrelevant if torture doesn't work in the first place. If those who advocate it can't prove that it works, then they have already lost the debate.
^This
Rockstar
08-07-14, 04:26 PM
Dantooine.
They're on Dantooine. :D
On a more serious note there is proof that the mere threat of torture works like a charm.
Kidnapping Has Germans Debating Police Torture
New York Times archve
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
Published: April 10, 2003
The two most important facts of the case were readily accepted today by the prosecution and the defense as the trial of a 27-year-old law student named Magnus Gäfgen opened in a standing-room-only courtroom here.
The first fact is this: on Sept. 27, Mr. Gäfgen kidnapped Jakob von Metzler, the 11-year-old son of a prominent banker, and murdered him by wrapping his mouth and nose in duct tape.
Four days later, Mr. Gäfgen was arrested after the police watched him picking up the ransom, but after hours of interrogation he was still refusing to disclose where Jakob was being kept.
That is what produced the second undisputed fact: imagining that Jakob's life might be in imminent danger, the deputy police chief of Frankfurt, Wolfgang Daschner, ordered subordinates to extract the necessary information from Mr. Gäfgen by threatening to torture him.
May work for some, May not work for others. In reference to terrorist interrogation, this is a rather irrelevant example.
The accused was caught in the act of picking up the ransom and knew therefore that he was in deep. He's much more susceptible to interrogation techniques because he knows the cops know he is guilty.
There's a case of a Canadian citizen picked up transiting the US at Kennedy airport, interrogated, then rendered to Jordan, where he was interrogated again, then tortured by being shipped with 2 inch cable and a confession was extracted from him.
Subsequently he was released without further action because his confession turned out to be false and that he had no intel of any use. Because he wasn't actually linked to any terrorist act or group.
All this because he shared his quite common name with someone on the Homeland Security watch list.
The interrogators thought he was holding out and threatened and finally resorted to torture for no good reason.
Rockstar
08-07-14, 06:12 PM
Homeland Security? He was detained and eventually deported to Syria based on Canadian intel they the Canadians gave to the U.S.
Once in the hands of Syrian government who knows what happened. So far it's been nothing but speculation and heresay. Maher Arar is back in Canada and hasn't mentioned or pursued a public hearing. One thing is for certain it's obvious the time in Syria must have done him some good because he sure is quite and mild mannered now. Funny how neither he or CAIR has said much since his return.
Maybe too since his Syrian vacation he is now considered good source of intel which is why the governments involved say there was nothing useful obtained from him. Could be they said that to reduce the risk of someone killing their new informant.
I don't want to know. Just call me one of 'the three little birds' where every little ting gonna be alright. YA MON
Tribesman
08-07-14, 06:14 PM
On a more serious note there is proof that the mere threat of torture works like a charm.
They got a confession from the murderer which was worthless and the lake as the location for the body was provided by another person.
If that is the best you can manage I suggest you give up.
Tribesman
08-07-14, 06:39 PM
Homeland Security? He was detained and eventually deported to Syria based on Canadian intel they the Canadians gave to the U.S.
Once in the hands of Syrian government who knows what happened. So far it's been nothing but speculation and heresay. Maher Arar is back in Canada and hasn't mentioned or pursued a public hearing. One thing is for certain it's obvious the time in Syria must have done him some good because he sure is quite and mild mannered now. Funny how neither he or CAIR has said much since his return.
wow you really havn't got the faintest idea what you are talking about have you.:doh:
The hearings were 7 years ago and the compensation payout was massive.
As for being quiet since his release his involvement in lots of campaigns, his published writing on the subject and his consultant role in a film about his treatment show that you are completely without any knowledge on topics you choose to make claims about.
You sir have proven that you simply spout nonsense which is entirely devoid of thought or fact:yep:
[http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=54c8383c-6315-43c4-ac9c-ddbf2fff7167&k=97087
Quite a piece for someone who has been quiet since his release and hasn't mentioned or pursued justice don't ya think?
wow you really havn't got the faintest idea what you are talking about have you.:doh:
The hearings were 7 years ago and the compensation payout was massive.
As for being quiet since his release his involvement in lots of campaigns, his published writing on the subject and his consultant role in a film about his treatment show that you are completely without any knowledge on topics you choose to make claims about.
You sir have proven that you simply spout nonsense which is entirely devoid of thought or fact:yep:
[http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=54c8383c-6315-43c4-ac9c-ddbf2fff7167&k=97087
Quite a piece for someone who has been quiet since his release and hasn't mentioned or pursued justice don't ya think?
I need say no more as this just about covers what I was going to respond with.
Rockstar
08-08-14, 05:55 PM
I need say no more as this just about covers what I was going to respond with.
Hmmm, weird. I typed the terrorists name in the search bar for any history and didn't come up with anything other than what I mentioned. Must not have been too important, heck I even drilled down three web pages, oh well.
Cheaper in the long run to pay out cash to a terrorist than disclose intel at the scmucks hearing. According to your article he's still on a watch list. Fine with me.
His Wikipedia page contains most of the details tribesmen mentioned there's plenty of reference material linked off that. You still using AltaVista as your search engine? :D
Tribesman
08-08-14, 06:05 PM
Hmmm, weird. I typed the terrorists name in the search bar for any history and didn't come up with anything other than what I mentioned. Must not have been too important, heck I even drilled down three web pages, oh well.
unbelievable:har:
So you went through 3 pages of links and didn't find any reference to any of the hearings court cases appeals apologies campaigns books films awards and honours?
That is some search engine you have:yep:
May work for some, May not work for others. ]
Well yes ... that was my whole point therefore generally speaking obtaining intelligence would be not reliable but worth try in some extreme cases.
The context of that comment was in relation to a circumstance that doesn't apply in a terrorist inyerrogation. Torture 's unreliability makes it invalid. Again why hurt someone if you don't have to, and can still end up with the same results?
Unless you like to hurt people... Then you're merely a sociopath.
Platapus
08-08-14, 08:00 PM
Anyone else read
How to Break a Terrorist: The U.S. Interrogators Who Used Brains, Not Brutality, to Take Down the Deadliest Man in Iraq
by Matthew Alexander (http://www.amazon.com/Matthew-Alexander/e/B001JRXNU2/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1) (Author), John R. Bruning (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=John+R.+Bruning&search-alias=books&text=John+R.+Bruning&sort=relevancerank) (Author), Mark Bowden (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_3?ie=UTF8&field-author=Mark+Bowden&search-alias=books&text=Mark+Bowden&sort=relevancerank) (Foreword)
It is a most interesting book on interrogation techniques that work.
Armistead
08-08-14, 09:21 PM
As long as torture is don't by good men......
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/Armistead1424086/Inquisition_3_zpsb5b4b76c.jpg
Well, nobody would expect otherwise. :03:
http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/spanish_inquisition.jpg
Now -- you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven.
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