MD-80 missing over Sahara

[CCIP]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460625

And MD-83 with 116 people on board went out of contact 50 minutes after leaving Ougadogou, Burkina Faso, over southern Sahara. Although the flight is listed as Air Algerie, the aircraft and crew operating it are Spanish, chartered from Swiftair.

This has been a HORRIBLE week for aviation :nope:

[Oberon]

This has been a HORRIBLE week for aviation :nope:

Yah, definitely not been a good one. Hopefully the saying about bad things and threes will mean that this one is the last one for a while.

[Jimbuna]

It certainly makes one wonder and the wife wants to pick a 'quickie' abroad in September.

London or Scotland is beginning to look more interesting.

[Red October1984]

At least it isn't Malaysian this time.... :hmmm:

[Admiral Halsey]

Did every plane turn into the original Comet somehow?

[August]

Who said aviation accidents tend to happen in threes?

[Buddahaid]

Everything happens in threes if you haven't noticed. Everything happens in threes if you haven't noticed. Everything happens in threes if you haven't noticed.

[August]

"And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.

Five is right out.

Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it"

[Admiral Halsey]

They found the wreckage http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/24/algerian-plane-disappears/13084329/

[Jimbuna]

Rgr that.....French soldiers are at the scene, there are no survivors and the black box has been recovered:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-28479681

[Admiral Halsey]

Damn. I knew it was a longshot but I was really hoping at least one person survived the crash. This has been a terrible week for Aviation and a horrible year as well.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

To me this latest incident raises some issues, the big ones being that pilots are becoming more and more dependent on the aircrafts avionic systems (i.e computers which control the aircraft while in flight), lack of proper maintenance. I don't even think commercial pilots are trained on how to do a crash landing although they should be at least in simulators. My question is why aren't pilots being trained on how to safely crash land an airliner under certain conditions? This is the detailed requirements given by the FAA on obtaining a commercial pilots license in which there are only two places that have "emergency procedures".

FAA Requirements to Obtain a Commercial Pilot Certificate (Detailed Version)
1. Be at least 18 years of age and hold at least a Private Pilot Certificate.
2. Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language.
3. Hold at least a current third-class FAA medical certificate.
a. You must undergo a routine medical examination which may be administered only
by an FAA-designated doctor called an Aviation Medical Examiner (AME)
b. Even if you have a physical handicap, medical certificates can be issued in many
cases. Operating limitation may be imposed depending on the nature of the
disability.
c. Your FAA-Certificated Flight Instructor (CFI) or Fixed-Base Operator (FBO) will be
able to recommend an AME. [NOTE: An FBO is an airport business that gives flight
lessons, sells aviation fuel, repairs airplanes, etc.]
4. Receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or complete either an online
study course or home-study course to learn the following:
a. Applicable Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) that relate to commercial pilot
privileges, limitations, and flight operations
b. Accident reporting requirements f the National Transportation Safety Board
c. Basic aerodynamics and principles of flight
d. Meteorology to include recognition of critical weather situations, windshear
recognition and avoidance, and the use of automated weather reports and forecasts
e. Safe and efficient operation of the aircraft
f. Weight and balance computations
g. Use of performance charts
h. Significance and effects of exceeding aircraft performance limitations
i. Use of aeronautical charts and a magnetic compass for pilotage and dead reckoning
j. Use of air navigation facilities
k. Aeronautical decision making and judgment
l. Principles and functions of aircraft systems
m. Maneuvers, procedures, and emergency operations appropriate to the aircraft
n. Night and high-altitude operations
o. Procedures for operating in the National Airspace System (NAS)
5. Pass a pilot knowledge test, at an FAA-designated computer testing center, with a score of
70% or better. The commercial pilot test consists of 100 multiple-choice questions selected
from the airplane-related questions in the FAA's instrument rating test bank.
6. Accumulate appropriate flight experience (FAR 61.129)
a. 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes
b. 100 hours as Pilot-In-Command (PIC) flight time, which includes at least:
i. 50 hours in airplanes
ii. 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in
airplanes
c. 20 hours of training in the areas of operation required for single-engine or multiengine
rating that includes at least:
i. 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in single engine
or multi-engine airplane, as appropriate
ii. 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps,
and controllable-pitch propeller, or that is turbine-powered
iii. One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine or multi-engine
airplane (as appropriate) in day-VRF condition, consisting of a total
straight-line distance of more than 100nm from the original point of
departure
iv. One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a single-engine or multiengine
airplane (as appropriate) in night-VRF condition, consisting of a total
straight-line distance of more than 100nm from the original point of
departure
v. 3 hours in a single-engine or multi-engine airplane (as appropriate) in
preparation for the practical test within the 60 days preceding the test
d. 10 hours of solo flight (sole occupant of the airplane) in a single-engine airplane, or
10 hours of flight time performing the duties of Pilot-In-Command (PIC) in a multi-engine
airplane with an authorized instructor, training in the areas of operations
required for the single-engine or multi-engine rating (as appropriate), which
includes at least:
i. One cross-country flight of not less than 300nm total distance, with landings
at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at
least 250nm from the original departure point
ii. 5 hours in night-VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and landings (with each
landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an
operating control tower
e. The 250 hours of flight time as a pilot may include 50 hours in an approved flight
simulator or training device that is representative of the single-engine or multiengine
airplane (as appropriate)
7. Hold an instrument rating.
8. Demonstrate flight proficiency (FAR 61.127). Receive and log ground and flight training
from an authorized instructor in the following areas of operations for an airplane category
rating with a single-engine or multi-engine class rating:
a. Preflight preparation
b. Preflight procedures
c. Airport operations
d. Takeoffs, landings, and go-arounds
e. Performance maneuvers
f. Ground reference maneuvers
g. Navigation
h. Slow flight and (aerodynamic) stalls
i. Emergency operations
j. High-altitude operations
k. Post-flight procedures
Successful complete a practical (flight) test given as a final exam by an FAA inspector or Designated Pilot
Examiner (DPE); conducted as specified in the most current version of the FAA’s Commercial Pilot
Practical Test Standards (PTS).

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

To me this latest incident raises some issues, the big ones being that pilots are becoming more and more dependent on the aircrafts avionic systems (i.e computers which control the aircraft while in flight), lack of proper maintenance. I don't even think commercial pilots are trained on how to do a crash landing although they should be at least in simulators. My question is why aren't pilots being trained on how to safely crash land an airliner under certain conditions? This is the detailed requirements given by the FAA on obtaining a commercial pilots license in which there are only two places that have "emergency procedures".Very similar question was asked after US Airways Flight 1549 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549) ditched into the Hudson River. Reason given was that in training they use flight simulators which are not designed for just that. They do not (or did not) model how water surfaces act. I don't know what is the case with crash landings nor whether its trained or not but I wouldn't be surprised if same reason is given.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Very similar question was asked after US Airways Flight 1549 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549) ditched into the Hudson River. Reason given was that in training they use flight simulators which are not designed for just that. They do not (or did not) model how water surfaces act. I don't know what is the case with crash landings nor whether its trained or not but I wouldn't be surprised if same reason is given. There is that, personally I think there should be a flight simulator made for the commercial aviation industry expressly designed in how to train pilots in the "art" of crash landing (which is something most combat flight sims do already but normal flight sims do not), and another thing is that there aren't a huge number of pilots who have had the experience in crash landing a plane unlike in years after both world wars, WW2 in particular.

[CaptainMattJ.]

There is that, personally I think there should be a flight simulator made for the commercial aviation industry expressly designed in how to train pilots in the "art" of crash landing (which is something most combat flight sims do already but normal flight sims do not), and another thing is that there aren't a huge number of pilots who have had the experience in crash landing a plane unlike in years after both world wars, WW2 in particular.
It doesn't matter how frequently they trained in crash landing, crash landing a commercial airliner is mind-numbingly difficult and there are very few situations in which a 'safe" crash landing can be feasibly achieved. Think about what it actually takes to crash a hulking airliner. Chances are if the plane has suffered enough failure to imminently crash, it probably has too much failure to fly properly.

Absolutely, pilots need to be trained in crash landing. THere is no question about that. But the overwhelming odds are that if a plane is going to crash, its far more than likely it's going to be catastrophic. Flight 1549 was one of the best ditches in aviation history, and all the right conditions were in place to allow the plane to ditch in the hudson. There were about 1000 different things that all could've gone wrong after the bird strike, though, especially the presence of boats, and if even one of those things happened, it probably would've been disastrous. I doubt in the air algerie flight that the pilots could've done much if anything once the plane was going down. A pilot can only realistically be as good as the aircraft allows him to be, and if the aircraft turns into a flying rock, well, there's not much anyone can do.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

It doesn't matter how frequently they trained in crash landing, crash landing a commercial airliner is mind-numbingly difficult and there are very few situations in which a 'safe" crash landing can be feasibly achieved. Think about what it actually takes to crash a hulking airliner. Chances are if the plane has suffered enough failure to imminently crash, it probably has too much failure to fly properly.

A pilot can only realistically be as good as the aircraft allows him to be, and if the aircraft turns into a flying rock, well, there's not much anyone can do. All of that is quite true, with most modern airliners almost all of the flight surfaces and controls are operated via a hydraulic system which in turn is powered though the engines (we can thank Howard Hughes for that) , so if the plane loses power most of the flight controls are rendered next to useless and then your left with an aircraft with the glide ratio of a ton of bricks. So the next thing is do modern airliners have a backup and/or emergency power supply so in case of lose of power the flight controls are still useable, or do the planes have secondary controls in case of emergency?

[CCIP]

So the next thing is do modern airliners have a backup and/or emergency power supply so in case of lose of power the flight controls are still useable, or do the planes have secondary controls in case of emergency?

The answer is yes, of course they do. Accidents from the famous US Airways 1549 to Air Transat 236 show effective use of that backup power. The problem is that in an emergency where the plane goes violently out of control or suffers structural failure these do no good. The crew need to have time and chance to use them.

Naturally of course, with current technology you can't really duplicate the amount of power engines can produce with a backup system, because you would need something that can generate as much hydraulic pressure/electric power. Sure, you can have that, but that would add tons of weight to the aircraft and make it uneconomical in every way. The backup systems are usually up to the job when the plane is salveageable and the crew react properly to the emergency, and it's unlikely that fully powered controls can save a plane that has already suffered a violent loss of control or a structural failure.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

All of that is quite true, with most modern airliners almost all of the flight surfaces and controls are operated via a hydraulic system which in turn is powered though the engines (we can thank Howard Hughes for that) , so if the plane loses power most of the flight controls are rendered next to useless and then your left with an aircraft with the glide ratio of a ton of bricks. So the next thing is do modern airliners have a backup and/or emergency power supply so in case of lose of power the flight controls are still useable, or do the planes have secondary controls in case of emergency?As already said, yes they have back up power system. Most have auxiliary power unit (APU) and ram air turbine (RAT). What potential secondary system you had in mind? Direct control via control cables is impractical because (especially in case of large civil airliners) force required to move control surfaces (ailerons, elevators, rudder...) manually is too high.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

As CCIP pointed out technology hasn't advanced far enough for a high output compact and light weight back-up power system. In a few years time who knows what we'll have, maybe a system that uses hydrogen and oxygen while flying at altitude? Frankly a back-up system that can reproduce the power of four or more jet engines might never be invented.

I do understand that direct control via cable is impractical on todays airliners which is exactly why I mentioned Howard Hughes because when he was building the H-4 Hercules otherwise known as the "Spruce Goose", Hughes found that the control surfaces where too large for the conventional cable linkages used at the time.

Also as has been pointed out that the crew needs time to respond to a situation and in a number of instances where a plane has crashed the crew either didn't have time to react or the damage was too great for the aircraft to continue to maintain airspeed and attitude or in this case a violent and possibly sudden weather system. In those cases nothing can really be done, and if something could be done it ends up being a split second reaction which can still go wrong.