How to intercept? [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

maillemaker

07-12-14, 09:40 AM

Hi Captain25!

It's really easy. Your picture makes it easy to describe.

As you can see, you have a contact, and you know it's approximate course and exact speed. With radio contacts for convoys they give you the exact speed. Of course they can change speed, but go with what you know.

As you have done, you have set a waypoint out in front of the convoy.

See the time stamp next to the waypoint? That is how long it will take you to get there. In your cast, 6 hours 30 minutes. Make sure you go to flank speed and make sure your speed and heading have stabilized to get an accurate time.

Now look over to the right-hand side of the map. See those vertical scales? That is a nomometer. It makes it easy to see how far the convoy will go in a fixed amount of time at a certain speed.

If you know the convoy is going, say, 8 knots, then use the line tool to draw a line from the left-most scale at the 8 mark, down to the time in minutes to your waypoint on the right-most scale. Your time in minutes is 390 minutes.

But the scale only goes to 200 minutes you say?

OK, let's call your current intercept 400 minutes. Cut that in half, use 200 minutes. So draw a line from 8 knots on the left scale to 200 on the right scale. Where the line crosses the middle scale will give you the number of km the convoy will move. Let's say it's 60 km. Since you halved the time to fit the scale, you will need to double the distance, so the convoy will move 120 km.

Now draw a circle around the convoy that is 120 km in radius. This will give you an estimate of how far the convoy can move.

Now adjust your waypoint to be along the target heading, about 10-15 km beyond the circle. The idea is to intercept before they get there so that you can submerge and sneak into an ideal attack position. Unless you are choosing a surface attack, but you still want to get there ahead of time to get ready.

That's it. You can adjust your waypoint position and the circle diameter as needed.

Steve

UKönig

07-12-14, 10:34 AM

It's helpful (well, for me) to remember that 8 knots is about the same land speed as 15 km/hr. I just measure off the 15 km marks and I get a good idea of where they should end up, and where I should get to, if I want to cause problems.
When I first started playing, I was not used to distances and speeds like the ones used in the game, and invariably, I would always plot a course to the spot indicated, only to find empty ocean. Or, at best, the trailing end of the convoy as their masts moved out of sight below the horizon.
After enough time, I have a pretty good idea of how the AI works and the historical perspectives behind the genre that once I make contact, I rarely lose it. And I almost always can plot a course that leads to a favorable firing solution. This game is more fun than it should be.

captgeo

07-12-14, 10:40 AM

Welcome Capt to the forum

Aktungbby

07-12-14, 10:50 AM

Captain25!:Kaleun_Salute:

Nukesub

07-12-14, 02:09 PM

Ahoy shipmate,

I use the following video by Tailmange as a guide to interception.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE16r79SwP0

Skip to about 12:00 and watch for a few minutes. I've used the same method he did to great success many times

Sink'em! :rock:

Pisces

07-12-14, 02:57 PM

P_Funk

07-13-14, 06:14 AM

You multiplied your speed and his speed by 10. So the circle is now 170 km for your 17knots intercept speed. This won't work because you are too close. You have to extend the line between you and the target to beyond your position behind you to make it work at these proportions. The circle will intersect the line on the extension behind you. But instead it is easier and more foolproof to make your drawing on a 1 km to 1 knot basis.

Exactly this. I always used to have this problem in the past. I'd keep getting bad solutions and wondering if there was just an arrangement of ship to contact that made it not work properly, then I realized the stupid meat bag behind the keyboard was the problem.

Pistoliero

07-13-14, 10:05 AM

maillemaker

07-13-14, 10:42 AM

]Are there any benefits to using so complex intercept algorithm?

I just use the nomometer on the right-hand side of the screen.

Steve

Pistoliero

07-13-14, 11:05 AM

I just use the nomometer on the right-hand side of the screen.

Steve

Actually quite awesome tool. I didn't know it is functional before this thread - thought that it is purely decorative.
Thanks!

LGN1

07-13-14, 01:30 PM

When you master the regular interception and use GWX or NYGM, you can use this to make an interception more challenging:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=3306

Now the speed and course are no longer exact and you have to guess more.

Regards, LGN1

Pisces

07-13-14, 04:44 PM

Are there any benefits to using so complex intercept algorithm?
Ruler and knots to km/h transfer sheet (seite 1) work just fine for me.
All you need in this case is to draw target course vector and find (on this vector) a point, to which your u-boat will arrive before the target will.The algorithm is a geometric method. You'll get the (precise) answer in a fixed number of steps. Some prefer that because they can handle graphical representations better then numbercrunching.

Yours is a bit more trial and error in predicting where the target will be in x hours and minutes, then calculate yourself or use the waypoint marker to find out where you will be. And hopefully they match to a point. Depending on how good you are in it, you can get this in one or too steps. But to each their own preffered method.

scott_c2911

07-14-14, 12:44 PM

I used to use the nautical miles to kilometers conversion table supplied with gwx to calculate distances travelled but I played the game so long now that I almost instinctively plot intercept courses now. They are tabs kept on the top left hand corner of the chart table. I always plot them so I have enough time to get into position and set up for the attack. Early war i stay up and give em a broadside so finese isnt as critical then but late war you need to be submerged for nearly all attacks.

vanjast

07-14-14, 02:25 PM

Are there any benefits to using so complex intercept algorithm?
Ruler and knots to km/h transfer sheet (seite 1) work just fine for me.
All you need in this case is to draw target course vector and find (on this vector) a point, to which your u-boat will arrive before the target will.
Eggsactly.. then you turn down the course to the expected convoy, putting you in perfect 'convoy infiltration' position, if you're lucky just within the outer column/row.

This you do submerged at depth depending on convoy speed, tracking the 'convoy spread' on hydrophone, to assess your position. Once the lead escort passes over you, you start surfacing - should bring you up approximately in the first row or just after.

The juicy targets are mid-convoy.
Los

BigWalleye

07-14-14, 06:56 PM

Eggsactly.. then you turn down the course to the expected convoy, putting you in perfect 'convoy infiltration' position, if you're lucky just within the outer column/row.

This you do submerged at depth depending on convoy speed, tracking the 'convoy spread' on hydrophone, to assess your position. Once the lead escort passes over you, you start surfacing - should bring you up approximately in the first row or just after.

The juicy targets are mid-convoy.
Los

Small problem: the contact heading is only accurate to +/- 12.75 degrees. A contact reported as "Heading ENE" (ENE= 67.5 degrees) could have an actual heading anywhere from 56.25 to 78.75. If it takes you ten hours to reach the intercept, then the area of uncertainty is 50 km wide. Using a 16 km horizon, if you simply head straight down the reciprocal heading, there is a 30 percent chance you will make visual contact, provided the contact doesn't change course.

Zosimus

07-14-14, 07:03 PM

The only easy solution to that is to intercept the ship/convoy as quickly as possible. Full/flank speed with battery recharge off and prefer contacts that are closing.

desirableroasted

07-15-14, 12:26 AM

The only easy solution to that is to intercept the ship/convoy as quickly as possible. Full/flank speed with battery recharge off and prefer contacts that are closing.

Since nothing, other than a task force, moves at more than 9kt, racing off at flank speed is a fool's errand. Especially since "East" is vague and since (in GWX at least) ships and convoys can and do change course.

If I can reasonably reach an intercept point within 4-5 hours, without turning my mission inside out, I will. Can't hurt, right? But banging off 10-12 hours a full flank.... tried that many times. Not worth it. And, yes, I am an ace at trigonometry, but the game simulates uncertainty very well.

The point is to conserve fuel so as to have as long a patrol as possible. More time on the lake, more targets, more kills. Zipping around every time BDU burps is the fastest way home with nothing in the bag.

Pistoliero

07-15-14, 01:08 AM

The point is to conserve fuel so as to have as long a patrol as possible. More time on the lake, more targets, more kills. Zipping around every time BDU burps is the fastest way home with nothing in the bag.

Not sure about conserving fuel, I use flank speed for intercept and rarely reach even 75% fuel remaining by the time, when all torpedoes are spent and I have to return to base.
Sure some common sense helps (don't interecept targets which are fast and moving away, don't interecept single ships 400km away etc), but it seems like only type II boats suffer from any sort of fuel shortage.

banryu79

07-15-14, 06:16 AM

The only easy solution to that is to intercept the ship/convoy as quickly as possible. Full/flank speed with battery recharge off and prefer contacts that are closing.
When I receive a distant radio contact from BdU I do the following, just to tackle with the issue highlithed above:
1) mark down the contact reported position.
2) with the ruler plot 3 possible course: the 'exact' one and the two '+10°/-10°' courses.
3) On each course I mark down the theoretical position of the contact for each hour passed since contact position reported hour (I choose the highest among the possible theoretical contact speeds).

Then I plot I circle of 22 Km radius (max hydroph. range) and move it as farthest along the three plotted routes as possible till it still can intercept all three course-lines.

That is the maximun "area" along contact path I want to be able to intercept in time, so given my position and the total estimated time needed for the contat to get to that "area" I plot my intercept run and I'm able to compute the minimum speed I need to run.

With that "minimum speed to intercept" on my hands I can evaluate if, where, when and at which speed to actually intercept that contact. I usually do well with this method, and I rarely need to run at "ahead full" (Type VIIB) let alone "ahead flank".
My tipical intercept run speed is in the range 9-12 knoten.

BigWalleye

07-15-14, 06:26 AM

When I receive a distant radio contact from BdU I do the following, just to tackle with the issue highlithed above:
1) mark down the contact reported position.
2) with the ruler plot 3 possible course: the 'exact' one and the two '+10°/-10°' courses.
3) On each course I mark down the theoretical position of the contact for each hour passed since contact position reported hour.

Then I plot I circle of 22 Km radius (max hydroph. range) and move it as farthest along the three plotted routes as possible till it still can intercept all three course-lines.

That is the maximun "area" along contact path I want to be able to intercept in time, so given my position ant the total estimated time needed for the contat to get to that "area" I plot my intercept run and I'm able to compute the minimum speed I need to run.

With that "minimum speed to intercept" on my hands I can evaluate if, where, when and at which speed to actually intercept that contact. I usually do well with this method, and I rarely need to run at "ahead full" (Type VIIB) let alone "ahead flank".
My tipical intercept run speed is in the range 9-12 knoten.

Excellent planning, Herr Kaleun!

banryu79

07-15-14, 07:33 AM

Excellent planning, Herr Kaleun!
Thank you, sir! :salute:

P.S.: Guess-estimation & planning are the two aspects of the game I like the most!

maillemaker

07-15-14, 10:04 AM

The point is to conserve fuel so as to have as long a patrol as possible. More time on the lake, more targets, more kills. Zipping around every time BDU burps is the fastest way home with nothing in the bag.

I almost always intercept at flank speed, and almost always run out of ammo before fuel.

About the only time fuel is a consideration is when traveling to the coat of the United States.

If it wasn't for the weather prohibiting bringing in external stores I'd probably never return to port with torpedoes.

Steve

Zosimus

07-15-14, 11:37 AM

Since nothing, other than a task force, moves at more than 9kt, racing off at flank speed is a fool's errand. Especially since "East" is vague and since (in GWX at least) ships and convoys can and do change course.

If I can reasonably reach an intercept point within 4-5 hours, without turning my mission inside out, I will. Can't hurt, right? But banging off 10-12 hours a full flank.... tried that many times. Not worth it. And, yes, I am an ace at trigonometry, but the game simulates uncertainty very well.

The point is to conserve fuel so as to have as long a patrol as possible. More time on the lake, more targets, more kills. Zipping around every time BDU burps is the fastest way home with nothing in the bag.

First of all, I have intercepted and sunk merchants that were moving at faster than 9 knots so I'm going to call a big BS on the first claim.

Second, you're right that convoys can and do change course–all the more reason to intercept them as soon as possible. Every extra hour you take is an increased chance that they've changed course and thrown your calculations off.

Third, if you're using a scientific calculator in the game, then imo you're cheating. You should make your intercept with the same tools that real u-boat commanders had to use. Accordingly I don't see what an expert at trig has to do with it.

Fourth, assuming you find a convoy that is moving at 7 knots (not uncommon) then surely if you find yourself behind it you sail out and around it at full speed. You're not really trying to do an end around on this baby at 10 knots, are you?!

Finally, I've never had fuel as a consideration. You usually sail off, sink a bunch of ships, and sail back without using even half your fuel. As long as your normal day-to-day operations is ahead one-third, you're fine.

BigWalleye

07-15-14, 04:36 PM

Third, if you're using a scientific calculator in the game, then imo you're cheating. You should make your intercept with the same tools that real u-boat commanders had to use. Accordingly I don't see what an expert at trig has to do with it.

Whoa! "Cheating" seems a harsh term to toss around at someone who plays the game differently than you do. "The same tools that real U-boat commanders had to use" would have to include a plotting party of officers and POs who were themselves trained to be "expert at trig." Because the U-boat commander didn't waste his time drawing lines on a chart. The navigator and the plotting party did, using the best available high-tech tools - slide rules and tables of logarithms. Whether you use an HP 11C or beads on a string, without a plotting party we cannot begin to approach the way real U-boat commanders did it

Do you use the stadimeter to measure range? Because real U-boat commanders didn't. Only Typ IIs and the oldest Typ VIIs had them. Is it cheating to let the computer measure the angles for you?

Do you use a periscope with 10x magnification? Because real U-boat commanders had to live with 6x magnification. Is it cheating to get a better view than was ever possible on a U-boat?

Do you use binoculars with a built-in gyrocompass readout? Because real U-boat commanders never had such devices. It's much farther beyond WW2 technology than a scientific calculator. Is it cheating when you use a device which is state-of-the-art a half-century later?

Do you use the mod called RND campaign layers with zigzagging units for GWX and NYGM? Real U-boat commanders had to deal with zigzagging, maneuvering convoys. Is it cheating to know that your contact will almost certainly hold its last reported course?

Do you use the Flaggen chart to tell when a nation has changed sides? Real U-boat commanders had to get that information from radio transmissions, which might be delayed or missed. Is it cheating to know the date South Africa entered the war?

Do you use h.sie's Diesel Damages Fix? Real commanders knew that they couldn't run the Diesels indefinitely at maximum RPM without risking a breakdown. Is it cheating to order "Ahead Flank" and not have to worry about an engine failure, which your crew might or might not be able to repair at sea?

Each of these cases represents a trade-off which we all have had to make, between historical accuracy, game capability, and personal enjoyment. You might feel that using a scientific calculator spoils the immersion of the game - for you. I might feel that using binoculars with a built-in compass readout is just plain wrong - for me. We all play the game to enjoy it, and the way you play it is the right way for you. But there is no wrong way. And there certainly is no cheating in a single-player game. If manual targeting is too hard, turn it off. And go have fun. Because, if you are having fun, you are playing the game just the way you should play it.

banryu79

07-15-14, 06:04 PM

Finally, I've never had fuel as a consideration. You usually sail off, sink a bunch of ships, and sail back without using even half your fuel. As long as your normal day-to-day operations is ahead one-third, you're fine.
So, if I understood it the right way you are usual to intercept your contacts using very high speeds but for day-to-day ops on your patrol grid you move "carefully" (ahead 1/3).

Funny thing, I usually do it the other way around. As I already explained, I extensively plot my contacts routes and my intercept runs in such a way to try and minimize speed. Instead I normally run my day-to-day ops (grid patrol) ad at ahead standard (>10 knoten) when navigating above surface (my strategy is to cover my over-the-surface legs, where my detection radius is limited (visually based detection) in the fastest possible way till my next underwater stop-point, where I creep at 1 knoten silent running for about 20-30 minutes (this is my best chance at picking contacts because my acoustical detection range is far larger than the visual one).

Instead I usually run ahead 1/3 for my long range transitions (to/from home port) or for my strategical deployment at medium range (changing patrol zone).

desirableroasted

07-15-14, 06:40 PM

Third, if you're using a scientific calculator in the game, then imo you're cheating. You should make your intercept with the same tools that real u-boat commanders had to use. Accordingly I don't see what an expert at trig has to do with it.

In the nine years I have been playing, I have used only the in-game tools provided by the developers and modders. No more, no less. And I don't find intercepts difficult.

I am sure you will pick it up if it is giving you trouble. The guide presented earlier in the thread, while a bit of a "buzz kill" if you just want to go do some arcade shooting, is invaluable.

Good hunting.

Zosimus

07-16-14, 08:43 AM

Whoa! "Cheating" seems a harsh term to toss around at someone who plays the game differently than you do. "The same tools that real U-boat commanders had to use" would have to include a plotting party of officers and POs who were themselves trained to be "expert at trig." Because the U-boat commander didn't waste his time drawing lines on a chart. The navigator and the plotting party did, using the best available high-tech tools - slide rules and tables of logarithms. Whether you use an HP 11C or beads on a string, without a plotting party we cannot begin to approach the way real U-boat commanders did it

Do you use the stadimeter to measure range? Because real U-boat commanders didn't. Only Typ IIs and the oldest Typ VIIs had them. Is it cheating to let the computer measure the angles for you?

Do you use a periscope with 10x magnification? Because real U-boat commanders had to live with 6x magnification. Is it cheating to get a better view than was ever possible on a U-boat?

Do you use binoculars with a built-in gyrocompass readout? Because real U-boat commanders never had such devices. It's much farther beyond WW2 technology than a scientific calculator. Is it cheating when you use a device which is state-of-the-art a half-century later?

Do you use the mod called RND campaign layers with zigzagging units for GWX and NYGM? Real U-boat commanders had to deal with zigzagging, maneuvering convoys. Is it cheating to know that your contact will almost certainly hold its last reported course?

Do you use the Flaggen chart to tell when a nation has changed sides? Real U-boat commanders had to get that information from radio transmissions, which might be delayed or missed. Is it cheating to know the date South Africa entered the war?

Do you use h.sie's Diesel Damages Fix? Real commanders knew that they couldn't run the Diesels indefinitely at maximum RPM without risking a breakdown. Is it cheating to order "Ahead Flank" and not have to worry about an engine failure, which your crew might or might not be able to repair at sea?

Each of these cases represents a trade-off which we all have had to make, between historical accuracy, game capability, and personal enjoyment. You might feel that using a scientific calculator spoils the immersion of the game - for you. I might feel that using binoculars with a built-in compass readout is just plain wrong - for me. We all play the game to enjoy it, and the way you play it is the right way for you. But there is no wrong way. And there certainly is no cheating in a single-player game. If manual targeting is too hard, turn it off. And go have fun. Because, if you are having fun, you are playing the game just the way you should play it.
First of all, I don't know what a stadimeter is. When I measure range, I do it on the map with a ruler. That means I'm guessing whether the target is at 2400 or 2500 meters. It's somewhere in there. As we've covered in other threads, the range is usually not that important. Even in extreme cases it will only make a 1º difference in the TDC. Additionally you cannot put high degrees of accuracy into the TDC.

As for magnification, I didn't even know that the scope had a magnification switch. As far as I'm aware, however, the magnification only goes to 4.5x so I don't know where the 10x figure comes from. On the Uzi maybe? For weeks I've been sinking ships with the 1.5 magnification provided by the attack periscope–sometimes at ranges of up to 4 km.

As far as I'm aware, the binoculars in GWX do not include a compass. Yes, the Uzi does but the binoculars do not.

I do not use a Flaggen chart (I don't know what it is or how to use it) but so far I've only sunk English ships and those in convoys. I prefer night attacks and if the ship is lit I do not fire on it.

I do not use H.sie's diesel engines, but I don't go flank on the surface anyway. Although I cannot measure how much fuel is used by each setting, I have noticed that flank speed offers at best 1 knot of extra speed. I usually use ahead full. My first action after switching to the IXB was to determine the speed at each setting. I have a paper here on which I have written: 6, 10, 14, and 17. These numbers represent the speed I noticed at ahead slow, one-third, standard, and full. I don't have a number for flank written down because I'm not going to need it.

In conclusion, as I said, imo (which means in my opinion) using a scientific calculator in the game is cheating. As far as I'm aware, the crew didn't even use sine look-up tables. They aren't necessary. Before I learned how to draw the triangles, I used the TDC to calculate intercept courses by doubling the target ship's known or estimated velocity and feeding the data into the TDC. That gave me the right lead angle to travel at 15 knots to overtake the ship so sometimes I had to pad it a bit by, for example, adding another knot to the ship's speed if I felt I couldn't make 15 knots.

Zosimus

07-16-14, 08:45 AM

So, if I understood it the right way you are usual to intercept your contacts using very high speeds but for day-to-day ops on your patrol grid you move "carefully" (ahead 1/3).

Funny thing, I usually do it the other way around. As I already explained, I extensively plot my contacts routes and my intercept runs in such a way to try and minimize speed. Instead I normally run my day-to-day ops (grid patrol) ad at ahead standard (>10 knoten) when navigating above surface (my strategy is to cover my over-the-surface legs, where my detection radius is limited (visually based detection) in the fastest possible way till my next underwater stop-point, where I creep at 1 knoten silent running for about 20-30 minutes (this is my best chance at picking contacts because my acoustical detection range is far larger than the visual one).

Instead I usually run ahead 1/3 for my long range transitions (to/from home port) or for my strategical deployment at medium range (changing patrol zone).
On my first outing with my u-boat (the first one with only 5 torpedoes total) I left Wilhelmshaven at ahead full. Before I reached my patrol area I got the notice that I had used up half my fuel!! Fortunately when I completely my patrol I just quit and was instantly teleported back to base. That was before I knew about realistic settings. Since then I have always left the base at ahead one third and I'm happy with that decision.

banryu79

07-16-14, 09:18 AM

... Before I learned how to draw the triangles, I used the TDC to calculate intercept courses by doubling the target ship's known or estimated velocity and feeding the data into the TDC. That gave me the right lead angle to travel at 15 knots to overtake the ship so sometimes I had to pad it a bit by, for example, adding another knot to the ship's speed if I felt I couldn't make 15 knots.

That is most intresting, Herr Kaleun! :hmmm:
I never thought to use the TDC in such a creative way (or read about it).
Kudos to you for this idea :up:

maillemaker

07-16-14, 10:05 AM

First of all, I don't know what a stadimeter is. When I measure range, I do it on the map with a ruler. That means I'm guessing whether the target is at 2400 or 2500 meters. It's somewhere in there. As we've covered in other threads, the range is usually not that important. Even in extreme cases it will only make a 1º difference in the TDC. Additionally you cannot put high degrees of accuracy into the TDC.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadimeter

There are markings inside the periscope that allow you to determine range to the target based on the apparent height of the masts of the target - if you know the height of the masts.

I've got custom optics (Hitman) so I don't even know if they work for me. Anyway there are so many ships in the recognition manual for GWX I don't bother trying to hunt them down to find their specs.

I just eyeball for range, or ask my WO if we are on the surface.

As for magnification, I didn't even know that the scope had a magnification switch. As far as I'm aware, however, the magnification only goes to 4.5x so I don't know where the 10x figure comes from.Both periscopes have a magnification switch. The actual zoom factor depends on what mods you have installed. I think the Hitman optics gives you a 6X zoom.

On the Uzi maybe? For weeks I've been sinking ships with the 1.5 magnification provided by the attack periscope–sometimes at ranges of up to 4 km.That's pretty darn good shooting. How are you measuring target speed? Do you have map contacts on?

As far as I'm aware, the binoculars in GWX do not include a compass. Yes, the Uzi does but the binoculars do not.This is correct, though there is a mod that gives you bearing with binoculars. I've been tempted to find and install it as if you are standing on the bridge you would have some spacial perception as to which direction you were facing, which you completely lack in the stock view of the binoculars.

I do not use a Flaggen chart (I don't know what it is or how to use it) but so far I've only sunk English ships and those in convoys. I prefer night attacks and if the ship is lit I do not fire on it.Depending on which mods you have, in the corner of the map screen you will see a little tab, which is the corner of some "maps".

One of them is a convoy/ship route map (the one that comes in the box with the box version of the game). Another shows friendly port mine fields and sub nets. Another shows time/knot/distance conversions. Some people have a "flags" overlay. Now that I think about it, maybe the flag overlay is only visible in the scope screens?

In conclusion, as I said, imo (which means in my opinion) using a scientific calculator in the game is cheating. As far as I'm aware, the crew didn't even use sine look-up tables. They aren't necessary.

Since I've started using no map updates, pretty much everything I do is bye guesstimation. A calculator would be of little use to me as I don't have inputs to put into it.

My primary keyboard key on the keyboard for driving the sub is the "=" key which means "Head thataway!". I usually use a default target speed of 6 knots and fire from 500-700 meters. I have probably an 80% hit rate.

Steve

Zosimus

07-16-14, 10:23 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadimeter

There are markings inside the periscope that allow you to determine range to the target based on the apparent height of the masts of the target - if you know the height of the masts.

I've got custom optics (Hitman) so I don't even know if they work for me. Anyway there are so many ships in the recognition manual for GWX I don't bother trying to hunt them down to find their specs.

I just eyeball for range, or ask my WO if we are on the surface.

Both periscopes have a magnification switch. The actual zoom factor depends on what mods you have installed. I think the Hitman optics gives you a 6X zoom.

That's pretty darn good shooting. How are you measuring target speed? Do you have map contacts on?

This is correct, though there is a mod that gives you bearing with binoculars. I've been tempted to find and install it as if you are standing on the bridge you would have some spacial perception as to which direction you were facing, which you completely lack in the stock view of the binoculars.

Depending on which mods you have, in the corner of the map screen you will see a little tab, which is the corner of some "maps".

One of them is a convoy/ship route map (the one that comes in the box with the box version of the game). Another shows friendly port mine fields and sub nets. Another shows time/knot/distance conversions. Some people have a "flags" overlay. Now that I think about it, maybe the flag overlay is only visible in the scope screens?

Since I've started using no map updates, pretty much everything I do is bye guesstimation. A calculator would be of little use to me as I don't have inputs to put into it.

My primary keyboard key on the keyboard for driving the sub is the "=" key which means "Head thataway!". I usually use a default target speed of 6 knots and fire from 500-700 meters. I have probably an 80% hit rate.

Steve
Yes, I use map updates. If I didn't, I'd just use the four bearings method. Speed can easily be determined by measuring how far a ship has moved in 6:29. If I cannot get a visual sighting on the ship, I'll measure it using the hydroscope for 9:43. Most of the time you kind of know the speed of the ship already. If the contact shows "slow" (either by hydrophone or on the map) then that's max 7 knots. So if you calculate an intercept at 6 knots and the ship arrives before you, then he must be going at 7 knots. If you arrive before him, he must be going 4-5. If you both arrive on time, he must be going 6.

The = key doesn't work for me, but I have the integrated orders mod that lets me click on the helmsman and order him to come to bearing.

maillemaker

07-16-14, 11:04 AM

Yes, I use map updates.

It would be interesting to see what kind of hit ranges you can pull off with no map updates. :)

Steve

desirableroasted

07-16-14, 12:34 PM

First of all, I don't know what a stadimeter is.

Which pretty much explains a lot.

maillemaker

07-16-14, 01:48 PM

Which pretty much explains a lot.

Well, to be fair, I never use mine and I've done pretty well tonnage wise. :)

If you have map contacts on, you really don't need it.

Steve

BigWalleye

07-16-14, 02:21 PM

Yes, I use map updates.

I agree with maillemaker. You should try playing with map updates off. It really changes the game.

As far as I'm aware, the crew didn't even use sine look-up tables.

They did. Surviving examples of KM-issue trig tables can be found on the web.

They aren't necessary. They are if you are doing Real Nav. Real U-boat commanders used celestial navigation to determine their position. They didn't have a 21st century computer to draw little circles on the map. They had a navigator guy who had to calculate the boat's position. And sometimes, they had to check it themselves.

Before I learned how to draw the triangles, I used the TDC to calculate intercept courses by doubling the target ship's known or estimated velocity and feeding the data into the TDC. That gave me the right lead angle to travel at 15 knots to overtake the ship so sometimes I had to pad it a bit by, for example, adding another knot to the ship's speed if I felt I couldn't make 15 knots. It's called a TVR. The TDC was an American device which was quite different in function to the TVR. And I don't know if it was possible to use an historical TVR the way you describe. If not, then you are just using your computer to do the calculations for you. That would be rather like using a scientific calculator, only easier.:)

BigWalleye

07-16-14, 03:09 PM

Well, to be fair, I never use mine and I've done pretty well tonnage wise. :)

If you have map contacts on, you really don't need it.

Steve

maillemaker, if you are using the Hitman's Optics mod, you don't have a stadimeter. Only prewar boats had them, and Hitman removed it from his mod. When using Hitman's Optics, the graticle is a very good aid to estimating range and AoB. It's quick, it's more accurate than the rectal housing group method, and you only need a generic ID (big tanker, small cargo) to use it effectively. Check Hitman's documentation that comes with the mod. It takes an hour or so of practice to get proficient, but it's way better for AoB. (Unless, of course, you are playing with map contacts on, in which case you can just read AoB off the plot.)

Zosimus

07-16-14, 04:40 PM

I really don't get you people. :nope:

I am set on 100% realism and you complain because 100% realism includes map updates. I think you should complain to the GWX modder.

If I turn off map updates do I get 120% realism and extra renown? Can I also fire my navigator, my weapons officer, and give myself better underwater oxygen time (less people on board)? What about those three sailors who are always on the bridge? Can I get rid of them too? After all, with map updates off and celestial navigation on, I surely don't need these people. Maybe I should fire my helmsman too and man the helm myself except when I'm running to the deck and flak guns to shoot at people or running to the back to load torpedoes.

I had this strange idea that I was the captain of a crew not a one-man submersible torpedo boat.

I always wonder... wtf does the weapons officer do on your boats anyway? I mean, he doesn't ever look through the scope and tell you the bearing of the ships, work out a firing solution, update your map, or anything. Does he just smoke a doobie all day or what?

BigWalleye

07-16-14, 05:16 PM

"Realism isn't about the game settings. It's about how you play the game." - Rockin' Robbins

maillemaker

07-16-14, 10:25 PM

maillemaker, if you are using the Hitman's Optics mod, you don't have a stadimeter. Only prewar boats had them, and Hitman removed it from his mod. When using Hitman's Optics, the graticle is a very good aid to estimating range and AoB. It's quick, it's more accurate than the rectal housing group method, and you only need a generic ID (big tanker, small cargo) to use it effectively. Check Hitman's documentation that comes with the mod. It takes an hour or so of practice to get proficient, but it's way better for AoB. (Unless, of course, you are playing with map contacts on, in which case you can just read AoB off the plot.)

Good to know, thanks! I am playing with map contacts off.

I am set on 100% realism and you complain because 100% realism includes map updates. I think you should complain to the GWX modder.

No need to get upset. I played "100%" realism with map contacts for a long time.

It just got to the point with me that using the map with the Harry Potter-like map showing the ship footprints exactly where the ships are made it trivial to plot intercepts and determine target speed and heading.

Once I survived the war that way I decided to make the game harder by turning the map contacts off.

It makes a huge, huge difference in difficulty.

So there is "100%", and there is "100%". :)

Steve

banryu79

07-17-14, 02:11 AM

It just got to the point with me that using the map with the Harry Potter-like map showing the ship footprints exactly where the ships are made it trivial to plot intercepts and determine target speed and heading.

Once I survived the war that way I decided to make the game harder by turning the map contacts off.

It makes a huge, huge difference in difficulty.

With my first virtual kaleun (I've just finished my 2nd war patrol) I'm playing with map update ON. Me too I do not like the extreme precision of this feature when you zoom really in so I decided to observe this rule:
- Max zoom in allowed when looking at the map (especially for plotting purposes) is the scale where 1 square = 1 kilometer. Never never zoom in more than that.

With my second virtual kaleun (I'm completing the shakedown patrol) I'm playing with map update OFF. In this case I need the help of the WO range estimations for plotting especially when contact is still far away. In this phase I get a not so accurate estimate of speed and course. I use this information that I continually try to refine to get into attack position on contact track. For the final shot set up I use the AoB and Range Finder rings on my scopes (MaGUI F).
I do not know how well I'm doing since I practiced the above procedure just once (during the shakedown patrol) and finally I didn't fire the eel.

Well, even if I'm not at all experienced, for what I saw I can say the two scenarios are quite different and yes, map update OFF change the way you play game (I found myself spending more and more time on the deck doing observations with UZO/binoculars, eyeball-guessing AoB and in general getting a feeling about contact speed and course in relation with our boat and trying along the way to peel off the layers of uncertainty about my target solution). It's a different game.

maillemaker

07-17-14, 02:24 PM

With my second virtual kaleun (I'm completing the shakedown patrol) I'm playing with map update OFF. In this case I need the help of the WO range estimations for plotting especially when contact is still far away. In this phase I get a not so accurate estimate of speed and course. I use this information that I continually try to refine to get into attack position on contact track. For the final shot set up I use the AoB and Range Finder rings on my scopes (MaGUI F).
I do not know how well I'm doing since I practiced the above procedure just once (during the shakedown patrol) and finally I didn't fire the eel.

Well, even if I'm not at all experienced, for what I saw I can say the two scenarios are quite different and yes, map update OFF change the way you play game (I found myself spending more and more time on the deck doing observations with UZO/binoculars, eyeball-guessing AoB and in general getting a feeling about contact speed and course in relation with our boat and trying along the way to peel off the layers of uncertainty about my target solution). It's a different game.

Yup, that is my experience also.

The game becomes much more cerebral and you have to have good spacial awareness in your head as to what is going on.

Instead of spending most of the game on the map screen, I spend most of it on the bridge, at the UZO, or at the periscope.

Steve

Zosimus

07-17-14, 04:45 PM

Yup, that is my experience also.

The game becomes much more cerebral and you have to have good spacial awareness in your head as to what is going on.

Instead of spending most of the game on the map screen, I spend most of it on the bridge, at the UZO, or at the periscope.

Steve
Well, if that's your thing, go for it.

Today I was sailing through the rain with 15 m/s winds and I noticed that I couldn't make better than 2 knots. The engines just couldn't run with that much water, so I submerged to wait it out. I immediately got a hydrophone contact–merchant closing. So I turned towards it at slow speed and put a little circle around it. A few minutes later I got a hydrophone update and calculated that it's course would take it within 1 km of my position. While I don't usually engage ships in the rain, I figured I owed it to him.

So I waited until the next hydrophone update and started the clock. Six minutes 29 seconds later I noted 1.8 covered. At 9:43 I noted 2.7 covered. Speed: 9 knots, course... 61º give or take.

So I set up the shot. The range was the only missing variable but in that kind of rain you need to be close so I aimed for 500 meters and waited submerged. I could see it getting closer on the hydrophone and so I set up the TDC. AOB 90º starboard, bearing 0º, speed 9 knots, range 500 m. My finger was hovering over the back full button, as in my experience the ships are always closer than the hydrophone guy says, but to my surprise the ship was a little further away, but still in easy visual range. Smokestack in the middle. So I locked the scope on and waited until the gyroangle changed. Then I started the timer. It took 8 seconds to go to the next gyroangle so I waited until it clicked to the next one, counted:

thousand one
thousand two
thousand three
thousand four... LOS!

You see, I have this theory that if you shoot at the ship when the gyroangle has just clicked over that the torpedo will tend to hit the ship at the bow whereas if you wait until it's almost ready to click to the next angle you'll hit it more towards the back. So 4 seconds should be exactly in the middle.

Less than a minute later the torpedo hit the ship just a hair behind the smokestack, and I called ahead slow, heading 61º but within a minute the sonar operator lost hydroscope contact. That must mean no propeller movement. So scope back up! Auto contact update guy, update the map!

Except he didn't.

So I sighed and went to the scope, found the foundering ship, clicked lock, and handed the observation scope to the weapons officer.

"Ach du heiliger Strohsack, Herr Kaleun! Es ist ein Schiff dort drüben!" he cried.

Yes, dumb ass, we torpedoed it about 4 minutes ago. Now put it on the map!

And so armed with this information I calculated a 5-waypoint path to put me on the far side of the ship facing it broadside. It didn't exactly work out as I'd hoped, but I wasn't more than 10 degrees off, so good enough. I peered through the scope at it and realized that I had another 2-3 hours to wait so I amused myself by trying to do all those things you apparently do when you're trying to sink a ship. I hit N, went to the book, and tried to ID the ship. The fourth time through the list of ships I decided that it had to be a small cargo ship. It bore very little resemblance to the picture in the book, but what else could it be? What's the next step? Range? How does that work... click here... that did nothing... click there... no... click over there? Yes, that did something... what in the hell am I looking at? Oh, wait... it wants me to... no, it doesn't... okay now I see. I can lower the little line to the waterline if I have the mast up. Okay well how do I cancel this thing? There, that seems to have done it. Range 2900. No, not even close. Okay, line up the mast... and click the thing... it sure is bouncing a lot in the wind... well, lower the thing... right around there. Range 842! Wow, that's precise! Let me check that against the map... no, the range is right around 600. So it's 40 percent off. Oh well, range doesn't matter right? What's next? Angle on bow? Well, it's probably 80ish. Let's roll with that. What happened? 77. Okay, well, close enough. Now what? Eyeball for speed? Okay, let's eyeball it. (singing jeopardy song). Long enough. Speed: 0 knots. I already knew that.

Then it suddenly occurred to me that I'd already torpedoed the ship without doing any of that and without using map updates to follow the little ship picture across the screen.

How long have I taken? Fifty minutes! I'm bored! Let's speed time up. 32x? No, scope down... okay now I can go 1024x... okay three hours! Scope up! Still there? I knew it. Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted... BLOW BALLAST! Man the deck gun! What's that you say? Abner es regnet? Yes, I know it's raining. I modded the sub file so that you can... what's that you say? Oh, only in high winds? But not in rain? Well, all right. Scope depth then... scope down... let's give it another 4 hours... scope up. Ship still there? Still raining? Another 4 hours... scope up... not raining? Good! Blow ballast! What's that? Yes, I know I can just call surface the boat, but I like blowing ballast at times like this. I get to the surface faster. Okay, you're right–it's not really faster but, it feels more impressive. Okay what's the wind speed? 7 knots. Man the deck gun! Fire at will!

Blub, blub, blub...

Have you loaded that torpedo yet? No? Why the hell not? Silent running? Oh yes, you're right... my bad... it's off now so load me a torpedo please. Head back on patrol men... one-third speed.

maillemaker

07-17-14, 05:22 PM

Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted.

Yes, they can, and they do. It's just not common.

About 25% of the time when I hit a ship in convoy it explodes with a single hit.

Not sure about singles.

But they can and do not only sink, but explode violently, from a single hit.

Most of the time it takes 2.

Steve

Zosimus

07-17-14, 05:44 PM

Why don't the ships look like the pictures in the book?

banryu79

07-17-14, 05:55 PM

Nice AAR Zosimus, I enjoyed it!
And impressive shot with only hydrophone data, I still have to try to do something like it! :)

Btw, I want to comment on this, since it looks like is a sort of obsession for you:

...
Scope up! Still there? I knew it. Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted... BLOW BALLAST! Man the deck gun!
...

I keep very detailled patrol diaries in hand-write form of my patrols, and I do an end summary detailing each single ship sunken along with all data pertinent to the sunk event (# and type of eels fired, hit and misses, day or night surface or sub attack, etc...)

I have data for two patrols I made with my first character Oberlutenant z. S. Lothar Prochnow (1939, Type VIIB)

Of 13 ships sunk in his first patrol, let's consider only the 8 engaged with eels (5 sunked by gunfire only):

1) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (7h, day)
2) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h, night)
3) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (5h, night)
4) Small Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (4h46m, night)
5) Ore Carrier, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h30m, night)
6) Large Tanker, 2 eels fired, 2 hits, sunk (4h30m, night)
7) Ore Carrier, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (day)
8) Nipwan Park-Type Tanker, 1 eel fired, missed, gunfire, sunk (5h, day)

And for his second patrol 15 ships sunk, 10 engaged with eels:

1) Passenger Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (1h45m, day)
2) Medium Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (3h30m)
3) Large Merchant, 2 eels fired, 2 hits, sunk (2h)
4) Small Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (2h45m, day)
5) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)
6) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
7) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (7h, day)
8) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (day)
9) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
10) Small Merchant, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)

So I think this authorize me at least in some way to say that with my mod soup I routinely can sunk ships with 1 eel.

Btw my mod soup is based on GWX but also include all the followings:

Thomsen's Sound Pack V3.2cg
GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects
GWX - Main movie - 'Das Boot'
GWX - No Medals on Crew
LifeBoats&Debris_v4
Flags_enlighten
TMTv2+ThomsensShips v4.4 for GWX3+Xtra ships
TheDarkWraith_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_4_SH3
MaGui F
TorpedoSolutionButton for MaGui F (NYGM-GWX-WAC)
M.E.P v4.2
M.E.P v4.2 to v4.3
Optional - FSF for MEP v4.2
Optional - ShipVanishingHull for MEP v4.3
M.E.P v4.2 - VisualSensors for GWX3
Moon_light_mod
Officer 3D icons
OLC's Modified Searchlight Beams for GWX3
Das Boot Clothes
Johnfb Crew Management and Officer Icons
Johnfb's Sepia toned crew managment
EnvSimAct_Stiebler
Q Ship mod GWX3.0

I suspect the mods highlighted in bold have something to do with it, maybe you could consider them for inclusion too? :hmmm:

desirableroasted

07-17-14, 06:15 PM

Ships don't go down in GWX with one torpedo no matter what that other guy... wth was his name... insisted...

I'm the "other guy", with nine years of playing the game behind me.

Let's see, my last career, which lasted only 49 days of wartime patrol.... sank 19 ships for 132K. For 19 ships, I used 23 torpedoes. I used two on an auxiliary cruiser, flubbed two with no detonation and had to reapproach, and threw away one in a bad snapshot.

But every ship that I hit, except the Aux Cruiser (where I fired two from the get go), went down with one shot. And we didn't load the deck gun during the entire career.

Was this better than average? Sure; I would have expected to have made a couple of "second shots," either out of necessity or expediency. The next career might be far different.

But I will say that my first thought is "Oh, are you kidding me?" when any merchant under, say, 15K tons requires more than one torpedo to go down.

Zosimus

07-17-14, 07:14 PM

Nice AAR Zosimus, I enjoyed it!
And impressive shot with only hydrophone data, I still have to try to do something like it! :)

Btw, I want to comment on this, since it looks like is a sort of obsession for you:

I keep very detailled patrol diaries in hand-write form of my patrols, and I do an end summary detailing each single ship sunken along with all data pertinent to the sunk event (# and type of eels fired, hit and misses, day or night surface or sub attack, etc...)

I have data for two patrols I made with my first character Oberlutenant z. S. Lothar Prochnow (1939, Type VIIB)

Of 13 ships sunk in his first patrol, let's consider only the 8 engaged with eels (5 sunked by gunfire only):

And for his second patrol 15 ships sunk, 10 engaged with eels:

So I think this authorize me at least in some way to say that with my mod soup I routinely can sunk ships with 1 eel.

Btw my mod soup is based on GWX but also include all the followings:

I suspect the mods highlighted in bold have something to do with it, maybe you could consider them for inclusion too? :hmmm:

Thanks. I'll look into the mod.

Meanwhile, I think we have a difference in our accounting procedures.

1) Passenger Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (1h45m, day)

If you added gunfire, then it didn't sink with a torpedo. 0-1

2) Medium Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (3h30m)

¡Sí vale! 1-1

3) Large Merchant, 2 eels fired, 2 hits, sunk (2h)

No vale. 1-2

4) Small Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (2h45m, day)

No vale. 1-3

5) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)

No vale. 1-4

6) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)

Vale. 2-4

7) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (7h, day)

Vale. 3-4

8) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (day)

Vale. 4-4

9) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)

Vale. 5-4

10) Small Merchant, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, added gunfire, sunk (2h, day)

No vale. 5-5

Accordingly I conclude, based on your data, that 50 percent of the ships you hit went down on the power of a torpedo. That's very good. The mod must be helping you a lot.

maillemaker

07-17-14, 09:42 PM

I suspect the mods highlighted in bold have something to do with it, maybe you could consider them for inclusion too?

I am pretty sure the Enhanced Damage Effects mod simply provides more fireworks/fireballs during explosions. I don't think it affects the damage of the target at all.

Steve

desirableroasted

07-17-14, 10:23 PM

I am pretty sure the Enhanced Damage Effects mod simply provides more fireworks/fireballs during explosions. I don't think it affects the damage of the target at all.

Steve

That's true for both. Eye candy.

banryu79

07-18-14, 02:44 AM

Thanks. I'll look into the mod.

Meanwhile, I think we have a difference in our accounting procedures.

...cut...

Accordingly I conclude, based on your data, that 50 percent of the ships you hit went down on the power of a torpedo. That's very good. The mod must be helping you a lot.

Well, you do not have to look at the numbers of eels fired but at the numbers of eels that actually hit the target, to determine if, in average, the power of a single torpedo usually sunk 1 ship so... Yes, we have different way of measure the facts :)

I just posted all my engagements where I wanted to take them down with torpedoes and not gunfire, just to give you the complete context, but if we want to count only the ships that are gone by the equation "1 eel struck = 1 ship down" here are the numbers:

1th patrol - 13 ships sunk - 8 targetted with eels - 5 one-hit-one-kill

1) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (7h, day)
2) Granville-Type Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h, night)
3) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (5h, night)
4) Small Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (4h46m, night)
5) Ore Carrier, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (4h30m, night)
One-hit-one-kill rate = 62.5%

2nd patrol - 15 ships sunk - 10 targetted with eels - 6 one-hit-one-kill

2) Medium Cargo, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (3h30m)
4) Small Freighter, 2 eels fired, 1 hit, sunk (2h45m, day)
6) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
7) Granville-Type Freighter, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (7h, day)
8) Small Merchant, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (day)
9) Tramp Steamer, 1 eel fired, hit, sunk (2h, night)
One-hit-one-kill rate = 60%

Ok, I conclude that saying that "ships will routinely go down with 1 eel" is a bit of an overstatement, but definetly more than half go down with 1 eel :yep:

Note also I was not determined, in every single attack set up, to achieve the one hit one one kill ratio, I bet I can do better, if I really care so much :)

@ maillemaker
@ desirableroasted:
You are right sirs, the "GWX - Enhanced Damage Effects" option is just eye-candy, I forgot that.
It's the other mod, the "TheDarkWraith_Ship_Plane_Fire_Damage_v1_4_SH3" that helps a lot. :rock:

Zosimus

07-18-14, 06:52 AM

Pistoliero

07-18-14, 07:05 AM

Well admittedly I made some assumptions when I did the calculations. If you said you fired two eels and they both hit and the ship went down, then I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that you fired one, it hit, you waited awhile, and then fired another one. It's possible, of course, that you fired a two-shot salvo and both hit, sinking the ship. If so, then that doesn't really count because we can't know whether a single torpedo would have gotten the job done. So if I marked that one as a failure when it was really inconclusive, then I apologize.

On the other hand, if you routinely fire two at ships, I imagine that's because you think one isn't going to do the job.

Firing two has some benefits, apart from obvious one (more damage if both hit). It increases chance to hit, it handles duds and prematures (unlikely to happen for both torpedoes). It is historical afterall.

One seems not enough for large ships if you did not hit specific locations most of the time. Maybe I just lack patience to wait sinking for 6-8 hours, who knows.
On the other hand ammunition ships often explode from any hit to any location. And tankers explode only slightly rarer in case they carry something flammable. Merchants carrying ammo also explode and sink with one hit commonly. Hard part is that you never know what's in that boxes on the deck.

banryu79

07-18-14, 07:13 AM

On the other hand, if you routinely fire two at ships, I imagine that's because you think one isn't going to do the job.
Note that the instances when I fired 2 eels (and btw yes, they were all salvo) are more in my 1th patrol than the 2nd one (3 instances VS 1 only).

The reason is simple: I was both unsure about the correcteness of my torpedo solutions, also I was unsure about the outcome of a single hit in effectevly sinking the target. That was because I was more inexperienced then in my following patrol :)

Now my own personal rule of thumb are the following:
- target <= 2000 tons: gunfire only;
- target <= 10000 tons: 1 eel only;
- traget > 10000 tons: 2 eels.

If target won't go down in a reasonable time frame (the lenght of which I will estabilish on a case-by-case situation) help her with gunfire.

EDIT
Just for clarification: the time spans reported in my data are not about the amount of time the victim ship take to sunk, they are the overall in game time it takes me to intercept & sunk her from the time of the first contact I estabilished with her (Radio Contact if cast by BdU or an appearing contact on the in game map out-of-the-blue, a Visual Contact or a Sound Contact).

Pistoliero

07-18-14, 07:17 AM

banryu79

07-18-14, 08:15 AM

By the way 88mm deck gun needs only 30 - 40 shots to sink even large merchant. And it is with crew doing all the job. If you know where to aim and how to do it (both false for me) you probable need much less ammo.

Well, in the game I feel more in the shoes of the kaleun that command the boat, I refuse to personally man the deck gun or the AA machinegun (even if, for the latter, sometimes I need to do it, for example when I try to shot out the Leight lights of a merchant).

Deck gun is the best way to sink unarmed and unprotected target, don't afraid to shell large ships.
Ageed, but for some reason I do not like to favour too much the deck gun, I feel more inclined in using the torpedoes above all. I tend to consider the deck gun more like a backup weapon and also I dislike the fact that in order to be able to use it I have to put my boat in a such so potentially dangerous situation (surfaced, slow going, near enemy target, with many men on the deck, incresead time to submerge because of the longer time needed to clear the deck*... a too vulnerable stance to feel right, YMMV).

* this aspect is not modeled by the game, but for me is there. For pure gameplay pleasure I consider my crew above all very real, and I hate to risk my men lives without valid motivation.