Night surface attack inside a convoy.......

[suitednate]

I've been playing GWX for a few days and just conducted my first successful night attack and squirmed my way into the convoy on the surface ala Kretschmer (I think). I think it helped that conditions were perfect too. Well "nearly". They weren't perfect for torpedoes not failing.

Conditions were December 1939, nearly midnight, wind speed 10 meters per second, overcast no stars, visibility moderate. You couldn't see a ship until you were about 1500 meters or so away. Convoy ended up being 5 columns wide and about 4 or 5 rows deep with maybe the trailing rows being about 3 deep in the middle. During the attack I also saw an escorting submarine. (Do these guys do anything by the way?)

I spotted the lead escort and let him pass while I was about 2000 meters to the port side of the convoy. Then I started to get closer to the main body itself to try and spot some big ships to go after. Mostly small merchants and tramp steamers on my side and then I saw a medium cargo in the second column, second row. Was hoping to see some bigger targets but I figured this would be good for my first target. Incidentally, medium cargos would be the biggest prey this convoy had to offer.

Stayed to the side and let the first column pass then I rushed in towards this target. I let go two eels at about 800 - 1000 yards away and turned to port to get deeper into the convoy and pass the targeted ship across his bow. Both torpedos hit their mark and he was instantly going down. My men cheer. Then the lead escort far ahead in the fog puts a couple star shells in the air to the area outside of the convoy behind me. This is pretty much when I smiled and was like "HA, Fooled You!!" :arrgh!:

At this point i was amazed that the merchants did not put up any searchlights of their own (I was going by these ships on their sides and across their bows at only about 200 meters at times).

I then spotted another medium cargo in the 4th column and decided to 1 eel into her but it bounced off. Fired another one as well that failed and ran way under the ship. While I'm doing this there were more flares and escort searchlights going off to my rear outside the convoy or in the first column. Since the seas were too rough I then had to dive and reload so I dove right in the middle of the convoy.

Only then did the escorts know where I was and this is also when the merchants who had them popped on their searchlights as well. I was thinking, "why didn't they do this before?" There were 2 frigates and I had some near misses with depth charges and almost had my scope snapped off by one of them making their DC run while trying to find a new target after reloading. Also got another shot away but this eel also failed and ran way deeper than it was supposed to. After this, I actually happened to let a magnetic shot go on another med cargo I had spotted right when a frigate was bearing down on me. AOB was about 150 degrees starboard so it was kinda a prayer shot. I then dove and hit full speed and hard to port because the frigate was literally right behind me. He scraped the top of my conning tower and no damage luckily. The shot found it's mark and there was a loud secondary explosion. Second one going down.

At this point I dove deep (150 meters and silent run) and headed out of the convoy to the rear and will pop back up and go in for seconds on the same night when I get home later today.

Anyone have any insights on how I could go so long on the surface without the merchants putting their searchlights on me and then they only turn them on once I'm submerged? Anyone with similar experiences? I was inside that convoy for quite awhile it seemed weaving between ships.:D

[maillemaker]

I like your battle style - I also keep up the fight even while escorts are having at me! :up:

This gets dicey as the war goes on, though. :)

During the attack I also saw an escorting submarine. (Do these guys do anything by the way?)

I have read here that these subs in convoy have good/better hydrophone detection capability and will help the escorts find you. Don't know if that is true or not.

I don't go out of my way to do so, but whenever the opportunity presents itself I always torpedo these guys.

Low tonnage but I always get satisfaction at hitting such a small target and also it's like a big FU to the other sub guys. :haha:

Steve

[UKönig]

It may be that your U-boat is just too low in the water for them to see adequately. If you are too close, they can't see you, because their vision is blocked by their own hull.
Merchant ships were often outfitted with listening gear, for just this kind of emergency. Even the ocean liner "Titanic" was equipped to listen for submarines, and that was in 1912. (See "shipbuilder" magazine, 1911 edition, on the Olympic class of ocean liner, for more details).
As it was, U-20, under the command of Walter Schwieger, torpedoed and sank the cunard liner "Lusitania" on Friday, May 7th, 1915.
So it's not surprising that once you went below the waves, that's when they "found" you. If there is no moon, and/or low visibility, you may have gotten confused with wave peaks and blended in with the ships of the convoy around you. One reason I try not to get too close with surface attacks (night or day) is because I am afraid that the merchants, once they spot me, will turn to ram. And if your sub is only 700 tons and your rammer is 6000 tons, well, it's pretty easy to see who the loser will be...

[Pistoliero]

Anyone have any insights on how I could go so long on the surface without the merchants putting their searchlights on me and then they only turn them on once I'm submerged? Anyone with similar experiences? I was inside that convoy for quite awhile it seemed weaving between ships.:D

Had roughly similiar experience today half an hour ago. It is January 1940 and I got message about large neutral convoy at grid BE37. Was pretty close to my position, so I decided to take a look at it.
Neutrals are famous for running with their light on, so basically I just wanted to take a look at whole convoy of such ships. Also might have couple of british merchants among them, who knows.

So I approached from the front submerged at around 80 meters, let forward escort to pass over my uboat (I thought that escort has the highest chance to be hostile - why should neutrals send a warship at all?).

So once my sub got past escort and got among convoy ships I just stopped and blow balast. When surfaced taken a look at convoy - it was quite large indeed - 6x4 probably. So first of all, all ships were running with lights off. I started to suspect something - why should neutrals sail with escorts and lights off to start with?

Similiar weather conditions as you had - dark starless night, waves, wind.
Ships were quite close - 1500 - 2000 meters probably, but I still could not see their flags clearly. Since nothing interesting happened (I mean no starshells and gunfire) decided to come closer and take a look at flags.
Plotted a course right between two convoy rows, ordered flank forward and started to examine flags. Still no reaction from convoy, when I run at flank speed surfased <1000 meters from transports.

To put a long story short convoy had few Norwegian ships, but most (and big ones) were British and New Zealand (I did not inspect all though, only checked ones which were close). So I have taken position (at flank speed again) and shot all availiable torpedoes - 2 at large merchant, 1 at modern tanker and 1 at tramp steamer. Once all torpedoes launched ordered crash dive at once.
This very moment every vessel starts to point their searchlights on my uboat -- probably they heared alarm bell? :k_confused: Got couple of glancing hits from destroyer artillery while submerging - nothing major, all was repaired by damage control team. Submerged to ~160 and succesfully avoided escorts.

From all attacked targets only large mechant sunk. Tanker got torpedo but stayed afloat, don't know did I hit tramp steamer or not, but it didn't sink neither.
Update: tanker also sunk according to post-mission log.

TL: DR : Ran surfaced at flank speed closer than 1000 meters from transports, no reaction. Launched torpedoes - no reaction. Ordered crash dive - instant reaction.

[suitednate]

TL: DR : Ran surfaced at flank speed closer than 1000 meters from transports, no reaction. Launched torpedoes - no reaction. Ordered crash dive - instant reaction.

:hmmm: Interesting. :06: they shouldn't be able to hear your alarm on the surface. (In case you weren't joking.). Even in calm seas, the open sea is a noisy place when on a big boat like those. I will say that when I dove I didn't crash dive in this instance. I figured, they don't know where I am so why should I crash dive. Now whether they turned on their searchlights at that very instant, I don't know. I have no external camera checked off so I couldn't check. Once I came back up to scope depth though they were on and trying go help the escorts.

In a previous night surface convoy attack not too long before this, visibility was moderate as well but the sea was much calmer. Probably winds 3 m/s max. It might have been less. I was getting quite close to the convoy but still outside it. When my first eel struck the target, I was instantly illuminated by the ship that I had hit actually if memory serves. All hell broke loose as star shells also lit me up so I crash dove. I think I was also hit by a shell or 2. This instance was also my first experience at evading escorts below the surface in GWX and found out how much more difficult it is than in vanilla SH3. Later on as i lost them and came up for air and to try to shoot a target on the surface (my scope had been destroyed by charges), I shot a magnetic det. eel towards an ore carrier as it was sailing directly away from me. 180 AOB. At the very least I hoped to blow up his engine so I could finish him off later. This ship was in the last row in the convoy. Eel found it's mark and starshells went up towards rear starboard of convoy but I was rear aft. So they hadn't spotted me. This had encouraged me to try the more daring style that I explained earlier.

[suitednate]

It may be that your U-boat is just too low in the water for them to see adequately. If you are too close, they can't see you, because their vision is blocked by their own hull.
Merchant ships were often outfitted with listening gear, for just this kind of emergency. Even the ocean liner "Titanic" was equipped to listen for submarines, and that was in 1912. (See "shipbuilder" magazine, 1911 edition, on the Olympic class of ocean liner, for more details).
As it was, U-20, under the command of Walter Schwieger, torpedoed and sank the cunard liner "Lusitania" on Friday, May 7th, 1915.
So it's not surprising that once you went below the waves, that's when they "found" you. If there is no moon, and/or low visibility, you may have gotten confused with wave peaks and blended in with the ships of the convoy around you. One reason I try not to get too close with surface attacks (night or day) is because I am afraid that the merchants, once they spot me, will turn to ram. And if your sub is only 700 tons and your rammer is 6000 tons, well, it's pretty easy to see who the loser will be...

Yes they will try to ram you. U just gotta keep your mouse er...head on a swivel while on deck. Also the keys for hard port, hard starboard, rudder amidships on the keyboard are always at my fingertips when doing this surface attack or when evading escorts and their charges submerged.

[suitednate]

I like your battle style - I also keep up the fight even while escorts are having at me! :up:

This gets dicey as the war goes on, though. :)



I have read here that these subs in convoy have good/better hydrophone detection capability and will help the escorts find you. Don't know if that is true or not.

I don't go out of my way to do so, but whenever the opportunity presents itself I always torpedo these guys.

Low tonnage but I always get satisfaction at hitting such a small target and also it's like a big FU to the other sub guys. :haha:

Steve

As for torpedoing the sub, do you have any idea what to set for torp depth? It doesn't appear there is an entry in the ID book for enemy subs. I may not have been able to do it at all on this night anyways because I'm guessing the subs draft is pretty shallow and the seas were pretty rough, I wasn't able to set my torp's shallower than 5-5.5 meters I think or else I'd get a guaranteed sinker failure torp.

[maillemaker]

As for torpedoing the sub, do you have any idea what to set for torp depth? It doesn't appear there is an entry in the ID book for enemy subs. I may not have been able to do it at all on this night anyways because I'm guessing the subs draft is pretty shallow and the seas were pretty rough, I wasn't able to set my torp's shallower than 5-5.5 meters I think or else I'd get a guaranteed sinker failure torp.

I go to the F6 screen and set the depth as shallow as it will go. :)

I've nailed 2 S-class subs that way.

I have to do it in the F6 screen because I'm using the Hitman Optics UI and you can't lower the depth beyond 3 meters or something.

Steve

[P_Funk]

For inspiration you might try reading some KTBs of real convoy penetrations.

This one is of Schepke and his U-100 on a 50k GRT patrol with lots of good convoy action. In particular you should check out the torpedo firing reports linked at the bottom of the page. They each show a diagram of the ship's, u-boat's, and torpedo's tracks so it gives a good indication of what the picture was to the commander at the time of firing.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTB100-2.htm

One thing to note, commanders early in the war, particularly when penetrating the interior of convoys, preferred to evade escorts on the surface. The idea was that a u-boat at flank was faster than most corvettes and at night was still harder to spot than he was to hear or detect with ASDIC underwater. Kretschmer himself was sunk because a junior officer left in charge on the bridge after the boat had been maneuvered away from the convoy panicked at the sight of an ASW vessel that probably hadn't even seen U-99 and ordered a crash dive. By diving the u-boat became visible where it had been invisible and lost all its speed. It was curtains for Otto's war after that.

I believe most of the tactical literature for the early war before things went totally against them basically said that to dive in the presence of the enemy during night operations was nothing short of a total surrender of the initiative and until radar dominated ASW operations there was more peril beneath the waves than above it, assuming things other than air attack or somehow screwing up and letting an aware ASW vessel get within a km or so.

I plan to test my convoy penetration skills again once I move onto a bigger boat, as my current campaign leaves me in a pokey Type IID. I do enjoy the narrative after action reports you guys are posting of your time between the columns. Do post more, they remind me of why I still play this game. :)

[suitednate]

Went in for seconds on the same convoy I hit earlier and bagged another another med cargo. Only fired 1 torp at first because it's all I had left. Torpedo hit it's mark and this time the searchlights came on instantly and was spotted immediately. Even by the ship i hit. Escorts which were unseen started throwing shells at me so I crash dove. Got hit by 1 but not seriously. I was inside the convoy again this time. Then I turned my stern tube toward the previously hit ship while submerged and let another one go. It found its mark as well and after a few minutes it was announced she was going down as well. Then made a pretty easy silent running escape.

So point is, this time they immediately went to alert whereas the first time I think there was a whole bunch of confusion on their part on what was happening. Makes sense. :up:

[suitednate]

For inspiration you might try reading some KTBs of real convoy penetrations.

This one is of Schepke and his U-100 on a 50k GRT patrol with lots of good convoy action. In particular you should check out the torpedo firing reports linked at the bottom of the page. They each show a diagram of the ship's, u-boat's, and torpedo's tracks so it gives a good indication of what the picture was to the commander at the time of firing.

http://www.uboatarchive.net/KTB100-2.htm

One thing to note, commanders early in the war, particularly when penetrating the interior of convoys, preferred to evade escorts on the surface. The idea was that a u-boat at flank was faster than most corvettes and at night was still harder to spot than he was to hear or detect with ASDIC underwater. Kretschmer himself was sunk because a junior officer left in charge on the bridge after the boat had been maneuvered away from the convoy panicked at the sight of an ASW vessel that probably hadn't even seen U-99 and ordered a crash dive. By diving the u-boat became visible where it had been invisible and lost all its speed. It was curtains for Otto's war after that.

I believe most of the tactical literature for the early war before things went totally against them basically said that to dive in the presence of the enemy during night operations was nothing short of a total surrender of the initiative and until radar dominated ASW operations there was more peril beneath the waves than above it, assuming things other than air attack or somehow screwing up and letting an aware ASW vessel get within a km or so.

I plan to test my convoy penetration skills again once I move onto a bigger boat, as my current campaign leaves me in a pokey Type IID. I do enjoy the narrative after action reports you guys are posting of your time between the columns. Do post more, they remind me of why I still play this game. :)


I'll def have to check this out.

[UKönig]

Kretschmer himself was sunk because a junior officer left in charge on the bridge after the boat had been maneuvered away from the convoy panicked at the sight of an ASW vessel that probably hadn't even seen U-99 and ordered a crash dive. By diving the u-boat became visible where it had been invisible and lost all its speed. It was curtains for Otto's war after that.


That's the reason I follow his advice namely, "When reacting to objects spotted at night, stay surfaced"

[suitednate]

Kretschmer himself was sunk because a junior officer left in charge on the bridge after the boat had been maneuvered away from the convoy panicked at the sight of an ASW vessel that probably hadn't even seen U-99 and ordered a crash dive. By diving the u-boat became visible where it had been invisible and lost all its speed. It was curtains for Otto's war after that.


That's the reason I follow his advice namely, "When reacting to objects spotted at night, stay surfaced"

when you are being shot at as well? :haha:

[P_Funk]

when you are being shot at as well? :haha:

If he can see you enough to shoot you when you dive he'll have a very good idea where to start looking for you, and unlike on the surface you won't be able to get away as quickly. If you can be sure that the enemy vessel is slower than you, which was often the case, you can make a run for it.

I suppose in the game its much easier to survive depth charging than it was in real life. Its easy to just lose them for the requisite 30 or 40 minutes and surface again knowing the convoy isn't far off. Real life they'd often sit on you for hours, visibility would mean you lose headway on the convoy and have to fight their zigging and zagging to get back into position. The time under the waves means you lose time to attack and BDU was very concerned with commander aggression. You lose an hour under water, a few more hours catching up, suddenly the first streaks of daylight come and you're ever closer to Britain, with more air cover, more destroyers to come perhaps, and shallower waters. Maybe you'll lose the convoy altogether.

Its a matter of situation and your experience of the game. I've definitely spent more time reading about u-boats in the last 5 years than playing SH3. I'd still avoid diving when the escorts don't see you. Until radar shows up they can hear further than they can see. I do remember outrunning many an escort over the years with gun rounds splashing about.

[captgeo]

I have practiced running when seen on the surface to get away, seems to work if you keep a zig zag, like already said, I run towards the front (or direction convoy was originally travelling) to improve my chance to strike again later.

[desirableroasted]

Yes they will try to ram you.

No one will try to ram you.

You can test this in single missions.... over and over and over and over and over.

No one will try to ram you.

[maillemaker]

No one will try to ram you.

You can test this in single missions.... over and over and over and over and over.

No one will try to ram you.

I thought so.

I've never seen a ship intentionally maneuver to try and ram me.

However, on very, very rare occasion, I will get a message, "Enemy is ramming us, sir!" or something like that.

Almost as rarely I get the message, "Destroyer in attack run!"

Steve

[UKönig]

I got intentionally rammed by a destroyer trying to leave the straights of gibraltar.
We (u99) were on the surface, trying to make a break for it, and we were getting pretty close too. Little Elcos harassing us, but called up reinforcements, in the form of 3 destroyer escorts. 2 V & W class, and one Tribal class, who caught us full speed broadside. Forward starboard, just before the saddle tank bulge. We flipped over in the water, like twice, (I was on the bridge at the time, watching this debacle), and the next message I got was "U-boat destroyed by collision" "You are dead, lol."
I have also been rammed by convoy merchants, my scope is up, they are aware, I'm being pinged by escorts in the area, but with so many merchants nearby, they are having a hard time getting into attack runs. Then, the nearest merchant to me will suddenly swing in my direction. Maybe that's just a programmed zig-zag and as (un)luck would have it, I was blundering across at the same moment, but the end result is the same. Damaged scope, damaged watch tower, damaged AA guns, maybe less if I spot the maneuver in time and am able to dive deeper, but it's a white knuckle ride all the way.

[desirableroasted]

I thought so.

I've never seen a ship intentionally maneuver to try and ram me.



Don't rely on this, but I *believe* you can be hit by an enemy ship that is aware of your presence (merch or warship) if you throw yourself in front of it. Not because of any malevolent intent, but because the AI works that way.

But you can throw yourself in front of a neutral or a friendly and the AI will do crazy unrealistic stuff to prevent a collision. The AI also does crazy stuff to prevent collisions between enemy ships.

[desirableroasted]

I got intentionally rammed by a destroyer trying to leave the straights of gibraltar.

You got yourself run over. You were not rammed.

[UKönig]

Same end result. Might as well have been. Works for me.

[desirableroasted]

Same end result. Might as well have been. Works for me.

Not trying to be hardball about it, but it is an important distinction. People who believe merchants and warships can try to ram them will make different tactical decisions than those who know they cannot.

[captgeo]

I have had a destroyer in SH4 ram me, no doubt about it

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp200/captgeo2703/SH4Img2009-05-04_093407_474-1.jpg (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/captgeo2703/media/SH4Img2009-05-04_093407_474-1.jpg.html)

[desirableroasted]

I have had a destroyer in SH4 ram me, no doubt about it

Great. But we are discussing SH3.

[maillemaker]

I tend to agree - you can get yourself run over, and since a destroyer is going to try and run over the top of you to drop depth chargers, it is very likely to happen if you are caught shallow.

But I don't think the AI in SH3 intentionally rams.

Steve

[UKönig]

Picture the scene:

Night, flat enough seas for d/g use, sky clear, dark.
Surfaced.
Exiting straits of gibraltar at 20 kts, next to the african coast, I mean, we're hugging the coastline so that the u-boat silhouette blends in with the background. Radar picks up incoming pulses, but brazenly, like a pirate, we try to stand our ground, so to speak.
Ahead, bearing, 345 deg, at 1000m and closing, an elco torpedo boat. He's no threat, ram him if he gets in the way. But, now 3 more shapes are closing in from the right. 2 V/W class destroyers are shelling us with artillery. 1 is at bearing 015 and about 2 km away, the other is bearing 025 and is about the same distant. The third, a C class or tribal class (i forget exactly), is running hell for leather right at us, bearing 045-050. Firing the whole time. I try to take evasive action by throwing hard lefts and rights, but it's no use. Now, I know the gig is up and I am boned either way, (surfaced or diving) but I see it through to the inevitable end. The 2 V/Ws hang back, while the Tribal lays it on, and yes, he plowed into us at 34 knots. Impact point, about where the seamen's mess is. It rolled us over in the water, like, twice, because I thought the bridge crew should have been flung all over the place, and the next message was "U-boat destroyed by collision".
But I don't know, it just seems that everytime I try to run a gun battle with destroyers, eventually, if they haven't shelled us to pieces before they get within visual range and I'm still on the surface, as a last resort, they always try to ram. If I am under, or make it under in time, then yes, down comes the hail of wasserbom. But if I stick it out on the surface, I get run into. It just seems too coincidental, that's all.

[maillemaker]

But I don't know, it just seems that everytime I try to run a gun battle with destroyers, eventually, if they haven't shelled us to pieces before they get within visual range and I'm still on the surface, as a last resort, they always try to ram. If I am under, or make it under in time, then yes, down comes the hail of wasserbom. But if I stick it out on the surface, I get run into. It just seems too coincidental, that's all.

I believe the UI is set so that the destroyers drive for your position. Sometimes they come straight in, other times they zig-zag on the way in, but at about 400 meters they drive straight in and ping.

If you are on the surface, you will be rammed. If you dive, they will depth charge.

I don't think it is an intentional "ram", it's just that the AI is programmed to run over the sub's position in preparation for depth charging. If you happen to be in the way, so much the better for them.

Steve