Manual Targeting ~ Now or later?

[KibaKazuma]

Hello all. :salute:
I have been curious as to how long did it take for you to start using Manual targeting on SH3 and SH4, I've played for just over a week and been watching how-to videos for the past few days and it does seem quite intimidating... :dead:
So I'm looking for a rough idea as to when I should start even trying the system manually :hmm2:
I'll be looking forward to all your responses :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I've been playing SH3 for nine years, subsims for twenty-seven, and I still don't use manual targeting.

But I'm a bad example.

And a bad influence.

Ignore that man behind the curtain.

[KibaKazuma]

I don't see that as a bad example, I guess even from what you're telling me it just depends on playing style..

[smilingmonkey]

Yes indeed. This is a question that has been running through my mind lately.

I have been playing SH4 for about the same time as you. I have been experimenting with the various mega mods and a combination of other smaller mods that I like the look of in game. And now I am fairly comfortable with the basics. Though, playing Real Fleet Boats has ramped up the difficulty (and immersion) a fair amount by disabling a few of the map updates for ship positions and hydrophone lines that I was getting used to. Not that it is a bad thing, I have to think about actually steering the sub in the correct direction now, and stalking has become much more challenging (and fufilling as a result). Having had some success there, I began thinking about manual targeting as the next logical step.

It does look intimidating for sure. But as far as I can see it seems o be repeating only a few steps and deciding on some factors that familiarity with ship types and behaviours will be helpful for. My big issue with it all is my evasive maneuvers in the face of a group of hunting destroyers. Will I have the time to run through the plotting solutions with them coming in fast and head on. Or will I simply have to alter my approach entirely in that circumstance. I shall be interested to find out.

Anyway, good luck.

[Panthera Pardus]

Welcome to SubSim, KibaKazuma, :salute:

when I startet to play SH3 a few months ago, I didn't used manual Targeting. But after a few patrols, automatic targeting became a little bit boring. At the same time I found SubSim and joined it, because here are a lot of usefull Informations. For example the link below.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961

This is the Tutorial I used to learn Manual Targeting, in addition it shows you one way to intercept a Convoy or single Ship. One patrol was sufficient for me to know how it goes, because of the well done explanation in this Tutorial. Since then, I have never used the automatic targeting again.
When you should start to learn/practice the manual targeting, depends on you. I'd say. If you feel ready for it, it's time to try it.

I myself have learned it to raise my difficulty settings. Because I wanted to join the Donitz Elite Flotilla, and for that I had to raise my difficulty settings. But I still could use the help of the Weapons Officer, just for the case that I need a quick target solution. As example:

We choosed a Medium Cargo and fired tube 5 and 6. Immediately we turned our ship around 180 degree, and prepared tube one and four. The target was a Granville Type Freighter, but we had to wait until it is in firing position. Meanwhile, the medium Cargo got hit, but not very well. It would take a while until it might sink. A few minutes later the Granville type Freighter was in position, we fired Tube 1. However, befor we could fire tube 4, we detected the front Escort. It was on a direct course in our direction. We stopped everything and waited for what would happen. We were allready in ASDIC range but without being pinged. I Pulled down the Periscope, so that we barely could see where it is moving. It passed us on our left Flank, just 300 meters away. To our luck, our last stern torpedo was ready in tube 5. The Destroyer, a Black Swan Class, started to turn left. (here I used the help of the Weapons Officer) I immediately gave the data for a torpedo launch to the weapons officer. And in the moment when the destroyer reached the 200 degree mark we were pinged. At the same time our Torpedo left our Boat, and we all hoped that it would hit before they know our Position. That were the longest 25 seconds in my life so far. And thanks to God, the destroyer exploded before he knew where we were.I hope that this was helpfull for you. Have a nice Day and good hunting.

Joy and Happiness
Panthera Pardus

P.S.: Here is a copy of the full text in my quote. Just in case that someone is interested.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/images/icons/wolf_posticon.gif My first Convoy attack as Member of the Dönitz Elite Flotilla
Convoy Attack Report

March 19, 1940 at 20:10 GMT We had sight and sound contact with the Large Convoy we tried to intercept. And here they are, just north east from our current Location. Due to our well-planned intercept, we had enough time to bring our U-boat in position. We had enough distance to anticipate traveling escort ship. A destroyer of the Black Swan class. While we waited for the approach of the convoy, we counted the ships. 16 merchant and cargo ships were on their way, plus a second escort ship at the end. Also, a destroyer of the Black Swan class. In addition, directly behind the last row with cargo ships, an enemy U-Boat. We had almost overlooked it. After identifying the ships, we searched the four Largest out. An ammunition ship and three Large Merchants. We had only 9 Bow and 5 Stern Torpedoes left, so we had to be considered.
I decided to fire on the ammunition ship first, and then on the first of the large merchant ships. So we prepared ourselves for the firing of Tube 1 to 4. A couple of minutes later, the Ammunition Ship was in good Position and we fired tube 1 and 2. Directly after firing the Torpedoes we logged in the first Large Merchant. 3 Minutes later, tube 3 and 4 were on their way. All four Torpedoes hit their Targets, with a small delay of 10 seconds between the second and third one. The Large Merchant immediately began to sink, the Ammunition Ship got slowed down but was still fighting. At the same time the Escorts changed their course, and started to search for us. But to our Luck they searched around the Ammunition Ship, while we were on the right Flank of the Convoy.
After I saw that they were looking in the wrong area, I gave the following commands. "Back Slow" and "Hard to Port". The Crew were allready reloading tube one till four, but I wanted to waste no time. And we had two Torpedoes in our Stern tubes, ready to fire and hungry for a target. So we made a turn of allmost 180 degree, and at the same time we logged in the second large Merchant. As soon as we were in firing position we hit the Button, and the Torpedoes closed in to their target. I gave new commands to the Crew: "Ahead Slow" and "Hard to Starboard". We made a second 180 degree turn, and at its End Tube 1 and 2 were ready to fire. The Crew was young and unexperienced, but they did a great job with an excellent timing. But no time to honor it right now, there is still one Large Merchant left. So we prepared the TDC with the correct data, and a moment later tube 1 and 2 were empty again. After logging in the second large Merchant, we turned our ship in west direction. It looked like we had to fire a third Torpedo on it. Because we hit it a little bit too much in the front half of the Ship. We waited for Tube three and in the Moment it was ready, the Ship gave up and began to sink. Directly next to it there was a Coastal Freighter, he was hardly slowing down to avoid that he would hit the Wreck. We changed the TDC settings and fired. He took a hit directly in his back.
It was time to left the Convoy alone for a while, so we moved on a course Southwest. With 5 km distance between us and the Convoy we surfaced our U-Boat and set a parallel Course to the Convoy. With only five Torpedoes left, two Bow and 3 Stern, we decided us for a second run on the Convoy. This time we wanted to attack on their left flank. Therefore we took a course on which we could cross their route in front of them. Our Stern was in the right direction as they appeared. We choosed a Medium Cargo and fired tube 5 and 6. Immediately we turned our ship around 180 degree, and prepared tube one and four. The target was a Granville Type Freighter, but we had to wait until it is in firing position. Meanwhile, the medium Cargo got hit, but not very well. It would take a while until it might sink. A few minutes later the Granville type Freighter was in position, we fired Tube 1. However, befor we could fire tube 4, we detected the front Escort. It was on a direct course in our direction. We stopped everything and waited for what would happen. We were allready in ASDIC range but without being pinged. I Pulled down the Periscope, so that we barely could see where it is moving. It passed us on our left Flank, just 300 meters away. To our luck, our last stern torpedo was ready in tube 5. The Destroyer, a Black Swan Class, started to turn left. I immediately gave the data for a torpedo launch to the weapons officer. And in the moment when the destroyer reached the 200 degree mark we were pinged. At the same time our Torpedo left our Boat, and we all hoped that it would hit before they know our Position. That were the longest 25 seconds in my life so far. And thanks to God, the destroyer exploded before he knew where we were.
Right after, we targeted back to the Granville Type Freighter, and fired our last torpedo. But the second torpedo bounced off of the Hull, as well as the first shot before. Therefore, we went on a course in direction west, and dived to a depth of 120 meters. With enough distance between us and the Convoy, we surfaced the U-boat and prepared for a Status report.

Respectfully

Leo von Pard
Oberleutnant z.S. and commanding Officer of U-666

I have written this report simply for fun, and I hope you liked it. Oh and Sorry, if there are Grammatical, Spelling or Translation Errors. If you find one let me know via PM. This way I can avoid it next time. :03:

Joy and Happiness
Panthera Pardus
aka Leo von Pard

[banryu79]

Hello KibaKazuma :salute:
I started playing SH3 just 3 mounths ago.
I never played a subsim game before, so I was fresh new.
I like the "hard way" in this kind of game, so I started right away with GWX (a mod) and manual targeting.

It is hard? Not at all, if you know how things works and what your are doing.

To lear how things works I kept my desire for actual playing under control and spent many hours in reading tutorials, studying them well, watching videos of let's play and read a ton of stuff in general (game specific or historical).

To know what I am doing I played a little in non-combat situation (doing the naval trainings, the in game tutorials, till I obtained good results and feel very comfortabe with the interface and everything, and the GWX first patrol during peace time, before the war declaration).

Was all of this "keeping-myself-from-actually-playing-the-game" thing boring? Well, that's depend, obviously. For me it was a lot of fun.

Now I'm doing my third patrol in GWX, and at least I think I know what I'm doing, I sunk good tonnage, patrolled enemy waters in a sensible manner and, most importat of all, kept my kaleun and my men alive (and unscathed, till know).

So, is starting with manual targeting a good thing to do? Well: why not? :)

[Schöneboom]

I do "Notepad" manual targeting for submerged shots. Surface shot targeting I leave to my 1WO. In any case, I rely on his help always for fast ID of targets.

Except in the worst weather, Notepad targeting is still "lightweight" compared to using markings in the UZO or periscope and a circular slide rule! Accuracy is good enough for shots within 1000 m; beyond that, one must have the numbers spot-on. If your first contact with the enemy is while surfaced, quickly get the vital targeting info, then dive or back off as needed. Target speed rarely changes, and that's often the hardest bit to get right.

Gute Jagd!

[maillemaker]

I think manual targeting is what makes SH3 a more fun game to play. I agree with its noted shortcomings in that it takes what would have been a multi-person team effort and puts all of the input burden on one person.

If you use auto targeting, the game becomes pretty much a point-and-shoot affair, subject only to dud torpedoes and incorrect impact angles.

With manual targeting, attacks become a much more frantic affair as you try to refine your attack solution as time runs out and you approach firing position, all while trying not to be discovered.

Manual targeting is pretty easy, especially if you use a 0-gyroangle attack. I suggest learning manual targeting while leaving map contacts on. With map contacts on, you can plot precise 90-degree intercepts and you can determine the target speed exactly. These make manual targeting almost as trivial as point-and shoot.

All you have to do is drive your boat at right-angles to the target. Mark the position of a target on the map, and again 3 minutes and 15 seconds later. Draw a line between the points and you have the target speed.

Point your scope at bearing 000 and turn on the TDC input and set the TDC to either 90 degrees port or starboard, depending on whether your boat is to the port or starboard of the target. Dial in the speed. Turn off the TDC input and turn your periscope left or right (whichever way is towards the target) until the gyroangle reads 000. This should be 5-10 degrees off of zero, depending on torpedo speed selection. Open the outer tube doors.

Then you just wait for the target to pass through your vertical reticule and shoot.

With a zero-gyroangle solution, range to target is irrelevant.

With practice, you can use the map and the protractor to determine non-90-degree Angles on the Bow, and you can input those angles to make attacks other than 90-degree attacks. But I almost never do this. Virtually all of my attacks are made by getting into a 90-degree attack position to insure optimal torpedo impact angle.

Once this becomes old hat, try it with map contacts off. Really, that is what separates the captains from the sailors. With map contacts off, speed estimation becomes more difficult, as does knowing the exact position of the target relative to your boat. The TDC operates just the same, but now your speed input will make or break your attack.

Unless you have the time to set up and do a fixed-wire speed calculation, and are able to thumb through the classification book to find a match and determine the ship's length for the calculation, you will probably end up just estimating the speed, unless it's a convoy radio contact and they tell you the speed. Because of this, you'll want to attack from under 1500 meters, under 1000 meters if you can manage it, to increase your chances of getting a hit.

Steve

[Pisces]

...
I think one of the main problems is that in the game its either all or nothing, which does not happen in real life.

In real life the team (not just on a firing solution), comes to a solution to a problem. Yes the captain has the final say, but more often than not, the captain, will really be checking that the information is correct and make the important decision whether to use it or not.

I am ex Royal Navy and information is being thrown at the officer in charge all the time. It is his responsibility what information to act on that and decide what to use. If ever you see a documentary on telly about any warship, not just a submarine, you will see this. It actually can get quite manic on a bridge/control room.

The captain, is the decision maker yes, but cannot be the master of all trades. This immersion is where the game lacks, rather than the all or nothing scenario we have now.:yep: :yep: :yep:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=2211648

[maillemaker]

Really, what manual targeting does for you, especially with map contacts off, is it forces you to get good at 2-dimensional spacial perception and determining contact bearing, heading, and speed within the limitations of the simulation.

And the "limitations of the simulation" are significant. When you stand behind a real periscope and you physically turn in a circle to face things, you have a very very real feeling of where you are facing relative to your surroundings, and thus relative to the heading of the boat.

On the computer, you have none of that.

Steve