Very few enemy ships spotted.

[Redjac]

I am very new to the forums.

I just bought Silent Hunter 4 from Amazon Download. It came upgraded to patch version 1.5. Then I downloaded JSGME and installed the following mods:

TrggerMsru Overhaul 2.5
TMO 2.5 small paych
RSRDC TMO V502
RSRDC V5xx Patch1
Fixed Zero bomb Load RSRDC
15 Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for RSRDC
Traveller Mod 2.6 TMO

All mods installed the above order, top first and then on down.

Problem is - I have not seen many enemy ships. From December 8, 1941 in Pearl Harbor travelling to the coast of Japan down to the coast of Indochina by February 24, 1942 I have only seen one lone merchant and one convoy with three merchants and two escorts. Don't get me wrong. The combat was thrilling. The merchant shot me up with machine gun fire because I got too close. The two escorts attacked me with depth charges for over two hours after I sank one of the merchants with torpedoes.

My normal pattern is to surface at night and cruise at 2/3 speed and then go to periscope depth at 1/3 speed in the day. Unless Command orders me to a new patrol zone I try to stay near ports.

My question is - Is it supposed to be this rare to find ships? Am I doing something wrong with my playstyle? Are my mods wrong? Is there some bug with the sonar man I do not know about? After almost two months I have only sunk two merchants.

One last thing. When I ask for a sonar sweep the hydrophone does not seem to turn. I can move it manually just fine. In the one convoy fight the sonar man found the ships but the hydrophone never seemed to move when looked for them.

Any help would be appreciated.

Redjac

[depthtok33l]

Welcome even if you've been a member since last year. :D

Stay on the surface as much as possible. Only submerge when you're attacking or any other circumstances that require you to do so. e.g air attack


My normal pattern is to surface at night and cruise at 2/3

:yep:
The speed is about right for cruising.

As for the rest of your question, I'll leave them to the other more experienced skippers.

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Redjac]

I will try that. But I do not understand why. Can't the sub hear a lot further than it can see? Don't the hydrophones work better if you are submerged? So the sub should be able to hear ships further away?

I appreciate the quick reply. I do. I am just trying to figure out why it is a good idea to stay on the surface. I know I may be missing something but why risk the air attack?

Redjac

[depthtok33l]

I am just trying to figure out why it is a good idea to stay on the surface.
Redjac
I can't quite explain my reasoning so I'm going to let other more experienced players answer that. I've learned that here and it's actually more effective for me rather than submerged searching.

[Sinkmore]

I'm using the same mods, playing in the same months, from Japan south to The Philippines.

I've found a bunch of ships - 12 at least. All lone merchants. I had to let 2-3 go because of hideous weather. (I did get one with a Dick O'Kane sonar only shot - darkness.... Darkness... Boom! Very gratifying! And he even turned out to be Japanese.)

3 or 4, my crew detected by sight or sonar, or I detected myself on random sonar sweeps. The rest I've found on sonar after seeing the Time Dilation Stutter - if you're on TD, most noticeably at or above 256x, the game "stutters" for a moment when it loads new units entering your area. (Sonar range?) it's most noticeable if you watch the stopwatch - I used to just watch the clock, and that works too.

Is it a cheat? Well, I can hear them on sonar, so, so should my crew. I figure, when it stutters that's my sonar man, and if I blink and miss it, the petty officer couldn't wake me up. I'm a heavy sleeper.

As for sonar, I think it only turns when you're not looking. It's on the same circuit as the light in the refrigerator. Try it and see. Note its position, go back to the control room for 20 sec, and check it again. I bet it moves.

Cruising on the surface in good weather is good for making daytime contacts. Sonar is better at night or with low visibility - or near air bases lol.

[Redjac]

I used to play Silent Hunter 3, the stock version. I used to find all my sonar contacts myself. My sonar man rarely found them. So I will stop a lot and listen myself. I will keep an eye out for the glitches. If I can hear them in game then my sonar man should too.

If I get surface radar i will stay on the surface more.

Redjac

[Sinkmore]

One more thing: RSRDC changes (deletes) the stock campaign merchant routes, which are pretty random, with millions of targets, and adds actual historically accurate routes, but there are perhaps too few of them (due apparently to not enough historical data). So plan on longer hunt times with RSRDC than other mods. I think it's totally worth it for the realism, just a little more time compression, and no consecutive convoys with multiple Yamato's. (Yamatoes?)

Even with duds, it's still pretty easy to rack up 5 or more kills per patrol, which is a lot more than real subs ever got.

[razark]

If I get surface radar i will stay on the surface more.
Stay on the surface as much as you can anyway. You can travel faster on the surface, which means you can search a larger area. Your hydrophones are mounted on the bottom of the boat, so they will work on the surface as well.

[bumper678]

The mods you installed significantly alter the stock shipping lanes and number of vessels. This was done to more accurately depict what was historically eencountered by our boats during the war. Most of the patrol reports I've read from the first few months of the way only had a handful of contacts.

Surface patrol, as our CO's discovered during the war, was the most efficient method for finding contacts. The sonar of the day was not very good, and the sound characteristics of the pacific changed dramatically. The greater speed of surface patrol with a sailful of lookouts spotting smoke from ships funnels made contacts easierto locate. Unfortunately the lookouts in game seem to have a max range beyond which they are blind. I tend to believe the soundman has a similar limitation as i have picked up contacts manually that the ssoundman didn't find. I am unsure if crew with better ratings would improve this or not.

[fireftr18]

I am very new to the forums.

I just bought Silent Hunter 4 from Amazon Download. It came upgraded to patch version 1.5. Then I downloaded JSGME and installed the following mods:

TrggerMsru Overhaul 2.5
TMO 2.5 small paych
RSRDC TMO V502
RSRDC V5xx Patch1
Fixed Zero bomb Load RSRDC
15 Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for RSRDC
Traveller Mod 2.6 TMO

All mods installed the above order, top first and then on down.

Problem is - I have not seen many enemy ships. From December 8, 1941 in Pearl Harbor travelling to the coast of Japan down to the coast of Indochina by February 24, 1942 I have only seen one lone merchant and one convoy with three merchants and two escorts. Don't get me wrong. The combat was thrilling. The merchant shot me up with machine gun fire because I got too close. The two escorts attacked me with depth charges for over two hours after I sank one of the merchants with torpedoes.

My normal pattern is to surface at night and cruise at 2/3 speed and then go to periscope depth at 1/3 speed in the day. Unless Command orders me to a new patrol zone I try to stay near ports.

My question is - Is it supposed to be this rare to find ships? Am I doing something wrong with my playstyle? Are my mods wrong? Is there some bug with the sonar man I do not know about? After almost two months I have only sunk two merchants.

One last thing. When I ask for a sonar sweep the hydrophone does not seem to turn. I can move it manually just fine. In the one convoy fight the sonar man found the ships but the hydrophone never seemed to move when looked for them.

Any help would be appreciated.

Redjac
I'll try to answer the best I can.
The amount of targets. RSRDC mimics historical data as close as possible within the game engine. Historically, the boats found very few targets. Many times, they returned to port with fuel and supplies low and all torpedoes intact. Especially early war. Two merchants early war is actually good. On the plus side, you can find and watch the historical battles as they happened.
Your cruising style. Stay on surface as much as possible. In TMO, Standard propulsion in the fleet boats gets you the highest efficiency. S-boats the best efficiency is at 2/3 speed. When submerged, the slower, the most efficient. When you do run on electrics, you use battery power. The batteries need to be charged when on the surface. The engines will run at full speed until the batteries are fully charged thus burning a lot of fuel.
Staying near ports seems like a good strategy. It seems to me the best places are choke points where different routes come together.
Sonar. You can call it a bug if you want, it's a flaw in the game engine. You can hear a contact before the sonar man will report it. You can solve this two ways. You can go to the sonar station and listen yourself, or watch the stop watch when in time compression. That's what most people do. When in tc, the watch will stutter a bit when units are in sensor range. Then go to the sonar station and listen. The fleet boats have the sonar head on the bottom so it's usable while on the surface. The S-boats and U-boats have the sonar head on deck and you will need to submerge to listen.

[Webster]

as mentioned RSRDC greatly reduces ship traffic in an effort to be realistic but this means you have to learn which shipping lanes were used during which time periods (google search) and that's where you will find the ships so unless you want to have to be in the right place during the right time periods in order to find targets then I suggest you remove RSRDC mod and play without it and you will run across ships more often.

I wish the RSRDC mod had concentrated more on getting the type and number of of ships that make up convoys and task forces to be more realistic rather then removing ALL traffic from the game that wasn't mentioned in historical data. IMO knowing when and where to find ships is more unrealistic and feels more like cheating then the stock shipping does. I understand the concept of repeating history but that in and of itself is a cheat because it is known. being able to go park at intersection "x" and wait for convoy "y" to come to you isn't my cup of tea and I wished he had not scripted things based so much on history but rather created his own version "based on" history but not recreate history so you never knew where and when to find anything but just a general idea where to find "some" ships

[Redjac]

If I get rid of RSRDC will I still have potential problem of seeing four Yamato class battleships in one convoy? Or do the other mods I have solve that problem?

[fireftr18]

Webster, my understanding is only the military and a few key cargo convoys are created with historical accuracy. Smaller convoys and single merchant ships are set up to be random.
Redjac, with RSRDC, you shouldn't see four Yamato class ships in one task force (You might in the right circumstances). Although you may find them multiple times until the historical sinking.

[jokker]

I'm on my first mission under RSRDC. I found a sea lane just off one of the japanese home islands. I've gotten 2 largish passenger carriers (unescorted but moving very fast) and tried to attack a convoy but the escorts were on to me before I could get into a firing solution. Got lucky and got one of the escorts. Fricking aircraft have been after me all day. But I've seen 3 convoys so far (two ddays of patroling).

they are there, just gotta think like a enemy at war.

So far I'm very impressed with the mod.

Though my mouse is very unresponsive. Too much eye candy turned on I suspect.

bob

[Armistead]

Webster, my understanding is only the military and a few key cargo convoys are created with historical accuracy. Smaller convoys and single merchant ships are set up to be random.
Redjac, with RSRDC, you shouldn't see four Yamato class ships in one task force (You might in the right circumstances). Although you may find them multiple times until the historical sinking.

I would say the majority of convoys in RSRD are historical, except in perfect detail of ships due to the game. He actually used complete Jap convoy info in RSRD. There should be an optional file in RSRD to show you the info he used.Yes, for the most part the singles are random.

[merc4ulfate]

I say keep RSRD and learn the shipping routes. That is realistic and that is what a normal skipper had to do.

As to the Yamato ... I know of no mod that scripts only two Yamato class battleships in a single campaign. I say two because the Yamato had a sister... Musashi.

It took 19 torpedoes and 17 bombs to sink her in the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_battleship_Musashi

[Sniper297]

Original complaint is why I tried TMO and RSRDC briefly then uninstalled both. No offense, matter of taste. :salute:

That said, can't find ships in open ocean go where ships are, in port or close to land. Choke points have already been mentioned, if you look at the map of Luzon Straits for example there's a lot of wide open ocean on both sides but anyone transiting between the two has to pass through a fairly narrow area.

One clarification;

"The fleet boats have the sonar head on the bottom so it's usable while on the surface. The S-boats and U-boats have the sonar head on deck and you will need to submerge to listen."

Fleet boats actually had three sonar heads, one on each side of the keel under the forward torpedo room (usable on the surface) and one on deck - when you're on the bridge look down on deck slightly to port, that T shaped gadget rotating in a circle (which it actually shouldn't be while surfaced) is the third sonar head, an ultra sensitive underwater-only sonar with two directional microphones on the far ends of the T. In real life you got more accurate bearings with that sonar than with the regular domes underneath. In game it doesn't really matter since they simulate only one sonar, so surfaced or submerged doesn't change anything.

[Rammstein0991]

Another advantage to being on the surface is Radar, which while not perfect is something to utilize when you can.

[smilingmonkey]

I have just started my first career with these two mods installed. I have found much less shipping as well. That's alright though. The trick, I suppose is to find choke points in shipping lanes like the others have said. I try to stay close to the coast was well, and will wait for darkness to sneak quietly in close to ports to have a look. I am mindful of the potential for mines though.

What the mods have done for me so far, which I thank them for, is that my aircraft evasive maneuvering has become very efficient. Though, on my current mission, days away from resupply, I have emptied the AA ammunition stores, but there are four aircraft in the ocean now, and we had smoke coming from two more before they flew off.

Plus, the fuel efficient running I have going right now is nice. I am working my way slowly down from coastal Japan to Singapore and beyond, having patrolled three separate areas, and sunk 10 targets (admittedly that includes a small flotilla of sampans which scattered under fire when I surfaced in amongst them suddenly one night).

I have rarely been submerged, though if I had radar I would be going under more often I think. Having to spot aircraft visually makes travelling in daylight a low TC affair. And the only time I have been above 2/3 speed is during evasive turns. She's a slow old process, but my hull is not overly damaged and all of the crew is alive. I do get the TC up to 1000 at night, but no more than 256 during the day.

[Sinkmore]

I'm wrapping up patrol #2. April 1942, mostly near the Philippines.

5 torpedoes remaining, 7 ships sunk, around 40,000 tons, not too shabby, with #8 soon to be sunk (so make that 3 torpedoes remaining.) I've averaged a little better than one kill per week. All solo merchants. So, lots of cruising.

Best hunting has been SW of Manila, around the Mindoro Straits, but there are loads of aircraft.

I finally saw the IJN! A task force, best target was a cruiser, but I spotted them heading for a nearby port and they vanished before I could intercept.

Planes harass me, but I almost always crash dive at first alarm. I don't even want them to see me. Still, I get spotted often, but I'm usually deep before they attack. I've also been lucky a couple times. I've never fired the flak gun.

[Rammstein0991]

I'm wrapping up patrol #2. April 1942, mostly near the Philippines.

5 torpedoes remaining, 7 ships sunk, around 40,000 tons, not too shabby, with #8 soon to be sunk (so make that 3 torpedoes remaining.) I've averaged a little better than one kill per week. All solo merchants. So, lots of cruising.

Best hunting has been SW of Manila, around the Mindoro Straits, but there are loads of aircraft.

I finally saw the IJN! A task force, best target was a cruiser, but I spotted them heading for a nearby port and they vanished before I could intercept.

Planes harass me, but I almost always crash dive at first alarm. I don't even want them to see me. Still, I get spotted often, but I'm usually deep before they attack. I've also been lucky a couple times. I've never fired the flak gun.

I always try to be submerged by daybreak myself, as a result seeing Japanese planes is almost nonexistant on my end, unless you count the "landed" seaplanes I see when I scout harbors. :hmmm:

[Sinkmore]

That's a wise policy. I sometimes do the same, depending on the likelihood of air contacts. If possible, I prefer the surface by day. By night, I dive every 2+ hrs to check sonar. By day, once I think I'm spotted, I change course and stay under til dark. If I'm staking out a narrow passage, where sonar is as good as visual, I'll stay submerged day and night, only surfacing briefly for air & to charge batteries. I seldom let batteries get below 70-80%.

When submerged, I cruise at 1 knot, at 160-220ft depth (just above thermal layer). I think a lot of people assume they're safe at periscope depth, but planes can spot you at various depths depending on the weather & mods. There's also a (small) risk of collision if you're running blind at periscope depth.

I seldom mess with harbors.

I always try to be submerged by daybreak myself, as a result seeing Japanese planes is almost nonexistant on my end, unless you count the "landed" seaplanes I see when I scout harbors. :hmmm:

[jokker]

Lots of ways to be successful it seems.

I spend most of my time on the surface. Pretty much pulling the cork for incoming aircraft and enemy contacts only.

Radar is pretty amazing at picking up contacts far out of visual range. I doubt I'm ever spotted.

I never fight it out with aircraft. And a finger stays close to the "C" key during daylight hours. If I see a plane, il"l chart his course on the map. If he deviated one iota from the base course I pull the plug. They never get close. Many, if not most, aircraft not flying directly at you, do not see you. But I would guess there is always an exception!!

I cover a lot of ocean, zigging a bit as I move around.

[Rammstein0991]

That's a wise policy. I sometimes do the same, depending on the likelihood of air contacts. If possible, I prefer the surface by day. By night, I dive every 2+ hrs to check sonar. By day, once I think I'm spotted, I change course and stay under til dark. If I'm staking out a narrow passage, where sonar is as good as visual, I'll stay submerged day and night, only surfacing briefly for air & to charge batteries. I seldom let batteries get below 70-80%.

When submerged, I cruise at 1 knot, at 160-220ft depth (just above thermal layer). I think a lot of people assume they're safe at periscope depth, but planes can spot you at various depths depending on the weather & mods. There's also a (small) risk of collision if you're running blind at periscope depth.

I seldom mess with harbors.

By Radar and sheer dumb luck I seem to spot fine on the surface at night, but maybe its luck

[Sinkmore]

Yes, many ways to skin cats. Some better than others...

Air search radar is great, but not 100% reliable. A few planes appear at visual range with no radar warning. IDK how much if that is crew's skill, how much is a realistic limitation of the radar, how much is intended/unintended by Ubi and modders, and how much is luck, etc..

I have read that the (in game) radar won't detect low-flying planes, but at least one has gotten past my radar at a pretty good altitude.

Speaking of air search radar: When I -am- (though seldom) at periscope depth in daylight, I usually have the SD antenna up. I tested it, and it will track planes if it's just barely poking above the water. (Forget "radar depth"!) It works at periscope depth in calm seas, and I'll go to slightly shallower depth to account for higher seas. I usually lower the 'scope to the same height as the SD antenna to reduce my visibility.

[Sinkmore]

By Radar and sheer dumb luck I seem to spot fine on the surface at night, but maybe its luck

Oh, you mean surface radar! Yes, it is better than visual + sonar together. But I hardly ever get far enough into the war to have it available! (I keep swapping mega mods...)

Also, I usually switch it off out of (misplaced?) concern that it'll be detected. (Doesn't seem like it though.) I've read that only certain Japanese ships can detect it - but you can't believe everything you read! So I use it sparingly, about like I use active sonar.

[jokker]

Sinkmore, in 11 missions I have observed the aircraft to be very predictable at night. They fly air lanes for the most part. When they come directly at you it's most often because you had an encounter with one if their countrymen and they're looking for you. Or you were on the air lane. When I'm working an area, I draw the aircraft paths on the map. Most airplanes just fly down the lane. Any deviation is cause for going deep. Likely daytime is identical, but they can obviously see a lot further.

I often remain surfaced at night and when I pick up a plane,I avoid being broadside to them and I keep my profile small and speed low. Most of the time they fly by.

I've never seen an enemy combatant escape detection of my radar. As for radar not working, I have noticed it sometimes doesn't do a proper full 360 scan. I always check the continuous scan button to insure it does. It may be why radar occasionally fails you!

I avoid sampans like the plague as I suspect some have radios.

I'm in late 1943.

Bob

[Sinkmore]

Wow, I've never seen Japanese planes after dusk. Not looking forward to late '43!

I think we're talking past each other about SD and SJ radar. The way the game models SD, all you get is a contact report and a mark on the map; you can't turn SD (air search) on or off, or even see the SD scope. All you can do is raise or lower the SD antenna. The two radar scopes you see on a sub are both for SJ (surface) radar. You can turn SJ on and off, and aim it at stuff.

It was SD radar that I meant: that sometimes detects planes IDK 20 miles(?) away, and sometimes doesn't detect them at all (possibly due to low altitude).

I have very little experience with SJ in SH4 - just once or twice in single missions. I used SJ in SH2, way back in the 20th century, but barely remember the details.

I've only managed to play one SH4 campaign long enough to get SJ, but I never used it. I turned it off as a precaution and forgot I had it. I guess Ensign Carruthers had a restful patrol. Then I drowned in mod soup and started over - again.

[Armistead]

The air radar in game will pick up larger planes much further..

[Armistead]

Oh, you mean surface radar! Yes, it is better than visual + sonar together. But I hardly ever get far enough into the war to have it available! (I keep swapping mega mods...)

Also, I usually switch it off out of (misplaced?) concern that it'll be detected. (Doesn't seem like it though.) I've read that only certain Japanese ships can detect it - but you can't believe everything you read! So I use it sparingly, about like I use active sonar.

They don't detect your radar in game. If you see them coming at you with your radar on, most likely they have you on radar, just get skinny and run away and they'll head back to formation or look for you where they last had contact.

[Vortex]

In the early war before radar I seem to able to avoid air attack pretty well by submerging only later in the day (I've kind of settled on 13:00 when I'm near air bases, patrolling the Southern Jap Coast, etc.). My theory being that it takes the planes awhile to get on station. But maybe it's all just been dumb luck?

Also, my experience has been that crash diving will save you 3 times out of 4 (or so), but that fourth time he's going to be close and you're going to take some machine gun hits at a minimum before submerging. Although still perhaps escape without taking any damage even then - or not hehe.

Battling air with guns? To my thinking this is ahistorical and not smart (although I believe the Germans experimented unsuccessfully with it). But maybe if you're in extremely shallow waters...

[Haukka81]

I raise this bit, i love the good things in RSRD and Tmo but i would pay real money to get more random ships etc.. Some kind optional mod, between stock hyper trafic and RSRD 0,0001% random ships :wah:

[Red Devil]

am patrolling the Marshall Island in USS Drum; not even seen a darn ghost ship!! :arrgh!:

[Armistead]

really, if you play rsrd and study a few historical maps or the me, you can stay busy fighting large groups one after the other. course, then the problem becomes not enuf torps...

[Haukka81]

really, if you play rsrd and study a few historical maps or the me, you can stay busy fighting large groups one after the other. course, then the problem becomes not enuf torps...

I know but its too much cheating. Like my sub captain have time mahicne to get Convoy maps from future :doh::doh:

Takes away all fun and suprises (IMHO)

[TorpX]

I feel the same way.

I like the having the possibility of finding big targets, even though I usually don't.

If you always are able to sink big, juicy targets, the game becomes rather too easy.

[Armistead]

I know but its too much cheating. Like my sub captain have time mahicne to get Convoy maps from future :doh::doh:

Takes away all fun and suprises (IMHO)


In that it does. I played a few years before I got into the ME, but doing that to mod it. That is the one failure with RSRD, play long enough you know where to go and wait. If you are a fan of history, also easy to get involved in the big battles....

I recall one fun battle and I wasn't looking for it, one night the Shinano came my way. It felt like history. I was able to get a few torps in it and slowed it to 17 kts. It was outside the Bungo. The vet DD's held me down and it got way ahead when the DDs left me to rejoin. I was way behind it, but catching up going through the Bungo, but no doing an end around there. Got picked up on radar and back came one DD. If I dived to avoid the Shinano would escape, so I went to scope depth and did a DTT and hit it, but didn't sink it then. I was able to later due to slow speed and the chase was on. I barely had it on sonar and feared it would despawn as it went through the narrows. Had to dive and flank through there to avoid shore guns, surfaced and chased. Can't remember bases, but it was going through the sea north or Bungo east. I chased, but couldn't get around, but got on the flank. When I got about 20 nms from where it was obviously going to port and despawn, being flank, I fired 10 torps at about 5000 yards and got 2-3 hits. Those slowed it to a dead crawl. The escorts looked but I was far away, reloaded, snuck in to about 3000 yards on the surface and gave it 6 and sunk it.

[Threadfin]

I don't necessarily agree with the 'cheating' assessment. Submarine staffs, and skippers, knew the routes the Japanese were using. That they didn't always take full advantage of this information is puzzling. Blair in Silent Victory makes the argument that submarine staffs spent far too much time and effort placing their boats in the wrong locations, that too much time was spent patrolling off well defended ports in relatively shallow water, when they would have been far more effective patrolling bottlenecks like the Luzon Strait, and I agree. The codebreakers in the Pacific were amazingly effective and accurate. They knew where the ships were in general, and where they were sailing.

Now, if you're a role-playing skipper, and I count myself among those, you will patrol where you're ordered to patrol, but that doesn't necessarily place you in the best locations. The Marshalls for example are on the periphery of the Co-Prosperity Sphere, and it makes sense that patrols in this location will see fewer contacts than areas located more centrally.

Why the staffs didn't make better use of their boats for the majority of the war is now left to speculation and debate, but surely there are locations that are more likely to develop contacts than others. If we ignore for a moment the need for having 'eyes' all over the Pacific, and look at the US submarine force strictly as an anti-shipping arm, the boats could have, and certainly should have, been employed more imaginatively in the deep water bottlenecks. It does not make much difference whether you encounter the ships near their termini (I looked it up) or somewhere along their routes, except that the latter are better suited for submarine operations, and surely the US submarines would have been far more effective than they were if they had been concentrated in those bottlenecks.

So my point is that the Americans could have exploited the intelligence they had more effectively, and it's not a stretch to play RSRDC with this knowledge at hand and exploit it. But if you are attempting to play it 'like it was', then weeks spent patrolling the open ocean with few contacts, or spent in 'dry holes', is the result. There are those among us that actually enjoy this aspect of submarine sims, and I personally have no issue returning to base with little to show for all those weeks at sea.

However, if you want action, all you need to do is patrol these bottlenecks and you will have all the targets you could want. If you are playing RSRDC it's just the nature of the beast that contacts can be hard to come by in the first 4 months after the start of the war, depending on your assigned location. But by the time Java falls around March/April of '42, the Empire is at it's limits, and the merchant routes are being fully utilized.

The Sibutu Passage, Makassar Strait, the northern approach to St George's Channel near Rabaul, Luzon Strait and the western and southern approaches to Truk are among the best spots in the campaign. Deep water and heavy traffic. Personally I think I have sunk more ships where the Makassar Strait meets the Celebes Sea than anywhere else, but then again I like to be based in Australia so I find myself there often.

Good story Armistead, never have seen Shinano myself (nor Yamato or Masashi), well at least as far as I could tell!

[Red Devil]

I too noticed the Silent Victory comments in my own reading of this masterclass of sub documentation. The early theatre commanders did not seem to have much in the way of tactical awareness. These men ran pre war battle desks and spent most of their time directing classes, not actually learning IN them. By contrast, Captain Walker RN was the most successful u boat hunter/killer in the world during WW2 because he took time to attend pre war ASW courses when it was 'not fashionable' to do so. It proved his worth when he went back to sea as a flotilla Captain.

As correctly stated deep water bottle necks would have been ideal trap sites, and the open ocean and Sea of Japan off Honshu must have been riddled with shipping.

Turn of the coin though and range would have been a problem too, how far can a sub driver take his boat before he reaches the PONR?

[Armistead]

I don't necessarily agree with the 'cheating' assessment. Submarine staffs, and skippers, knew the routes the Japanese were using. That they didn't always take full advantage of this information is puzzling. Blair in Silent Victory makes the argument that submarine staffs spent far too much time and effort placing their boats in the wrong locations, that too much time was spent patrolling off well defended ports in relatively shallow water, when they would have been far more effective patrolling bottlenecks like the Luzon Strait, and I agree. The codebreakers in the Pacific were amazingly effective and accurate. They knew where the ships were in general, and where they were sailing.



RSRD uses very few contact reports, been nice had he included more.

I seldom do patrol zones, most are shipping lanes for singles, although several are timed for something big to come through. The problem is the timing is often off due to code or the way you travel. Simply, you leave base and rush to your patrol star and the timer goes gray, so you leave. It could another day or two before what comes through there does...

[Threadfin]

Good points Red Devil, as there is little doubt that outmoded pre-war doctrine hamstrung the submarine force. There was little in the way of innovative thinking, and what there was mostly due to increasingly younger skippers.

But in the command structure, the men who were trained in the inter-war period were entirely too cautious and rigid in their thinking. As is well known, peacetime exercises put the most emphasis on remaining undetected. Actually putting torpedoes on target was not as important.

In the war, the inertia resulting from this thinking took a long time to overcome. But once it was, and the torpedoes made right, effectiveness improved in spades. It's interesting to wonder how the war in the Pacific might have gone if the sub force, tactics and weapons that were employed in '44 had instead been available from the start.

How long might the war have lasted had boats been sent to the right areas with proper weaponry?

[Threadfin]

you leave base and rush to your patrol star and the timer goes gray, so you leave.

Well of course that is down to the player isn't it? I could complete my objective, then go sit outside Truk for the rest of the patrol. But I don't. It's all a matter of choice in my opinion. There is no reason a player could not remain on station, or request a new objective and get shunted around at the whim of SH4ComSubPac. It is down to mindset of the player and what he is looking to do, or how he chooses to play.

[Armistead]

Well of course that is down to the player isn't it? I could complete my objective, then go sit outside Truk for the rest of the patrol. But I don't. It's all a matter of choice in my opinion. There is no reason a player could not remain on station, or request a new objective and get shunted around at the whim of SH4ComSubPac. It is down to mindset of the player and what he is looking to do, or how he chooses to play.

Point is, if you're playing RSRD, numerous times something nice is coming through your patrol star, just remember traffic is on it's on time, not that of the star. If you're gonna do your patrol zone, try to get there early and hang around a few days after the star goes gray, you might get lucky.

Myself, I don't do patrol zones unless they're close by where I want to go or happen to be on the way. Too much single traffic and I long ago stopped sinking singles unless a tanker or such.

I long ago edited RSRD, probably added 100 more convoys with more randomness just to confuse myself. The special missions are absent or fubar in RSRD, so I added about 10 for the bases I like. I made Truk the fortress it was. Have one special mission for a photo recon, cept mine is a lil different in that subnets basically protect the ships. Forget going in on the surface, got elite shoreguns, radar, coast watchers, searchlights, etc. Placed several minefields as well. But what gets me is having elite subkiller groups patrolling in and outside. I know the map well, but never was able to get in and out alive. I once did get in on the surface during a storm, but couldn't take pictures, so had to wait til weather cleared, but died trying to get out.

[Red Devil]

If I find that the mission did not take consideration of fuel usage, I ignore instructions and go to where I want. I nevr get my hand smacked!!

[Armistead]

I remember once in stock, I docked in Manila after a quick patrol before the base fell. When I loaded for next patrol, my mission was a photo recon in....Manila. The date was such the Japs took Manilla loading the game. Thankfully I chose the option to spawn outside and not by the dock....Stock was so FUBAR

[Red Devil]

Us liberty ships leaving Manila long after japs had control!!