Rules of engagement in 1939

[WolfOfTheSteppes]

Hello Gentlemen, lieutenant WolfOfTheSteppes, Commander of the U51 reporting for duty! :arrgh!:

I’m new to this forum, so hello everyone! I have a quick question and I don’t think it has been posted before.

I have SH3+GWX3 and I started a new campaign. I had played SH3 when it came out a long time ago, and I was just amazed by all the changes GWX brought to the game. I was surprised to start a month before the hostilities and I perfectly understood that I was not supposed to attack anyone, so I just went to my patrol grid BF17 in the Atlantic and went round England to be on the country east cost when the time would come to start hunting.

Hostilities with England were declared on September 3 and I got a message to attack at will all British warships, and to engage any British merchant vessel by following the international rules of engagement (or something similar). I did not pay attention to that very much. I intercepted a contact by radio, track it by hydrophone (the weather was bad and the visibility was not poor but relatively low), intercepted visually a British costal merchant (confirmed it by looking closely at his flag by zooming with the periscope), and sank it with two torpedoes. I reported that to the BDU, which congratulated me, and when I exited the game, I saw that I had sunk a neutral ship.

So what about the rules of engagement? Does it play a role? Shall I first announce myself to the ship by being visible and then sink it if it does not stop its engines? Shall I get a little bit further into the campaign first?

In addition, I spent all my reputation on arming my Type II submarine, is it bad to have a negative reputation or is there a time when you risk court martial?

Thank you Commanders, SINK THEM ALL!!!!! :subsim:
Wolf

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

You are one of the few people who actually figured out the delay in the start of the war. Many people have logged in to ask why everybody hates them for sinking British ships, not realizing the war hasn't started yet.

No, there are no Rules Of Engagement in the game. Ships will not surrender. They won't stop. You can't board them. I sometimes make my own, only attacking from the surface when single merchants are involved, but the game isn't sophisticated enough to model any of that.

[WolfOfTheSteppes]

Thank you Sailor Steve for your nice welcome. :salute:

Then I suppose I experienced some kind of bug. I'm pretty sure it was a british ship that I sunk and it was past the beginning of the war with England. Anyway, I will try again and if it yields the same results, I will come back to port and sail again. It will probably correct the bug.

Thanks again for your warm welcome. :subsim:

[CaptBones]

Hello WolfOfTheSteppes; welcome aboard Mate! :salute:

What was described doesn't add-up correctly, even given the specific shortcomings of the "game" environment. It's a rainy day, cold and uninviting outside; so I just started another new career beginning in August '39 with a Type II, but here's what I can recall from earlier careers. You should get the notice of war with Great Britain around 0200Z on 3 Sept and, around 1600Z the same day, a missive advising you to take hostile actions immediately, w/o waiting to be attacked first. After that, any merchant ship flying the Red Ensign is fair game. The game seems to recognize that the British gov't asked for a response to their ultimatum by mid-day on the 3rd (11:00 in London and noon in Berlin, IIRC), but we are advised by message that we're at war with Great Britain well before that ultimatum "expired". So, your chart turns British ports from green to red at midnight, but apparently British vessels are still "neutral" until a little later in the day.

In my earlier careers, that started in August/September 1939, I have encountered and sunk British merchant vessels later in the evening of 3 Sept., getting the red "hostile vessel sunk" icon on the chart and credited with hostile tonnage sunk at save-game and end of patrol program closings. So, although Sailor Steve is quite right, something still seems to be "fishy" in your reported experience.

What time did you attack and sink the British coastal merchant? Are you 110% certain it was British? If it was Canadian or South African (also flying a Red Ensign but with their unique Coat of Arms opposite the Union Jack and very hard to see at night) you did indeed sink a "neutral", they didn't declare war until several days later...and I can't recall when India, Australia and New Zealand become belligerents in the game; their merchant vessels also fly a Red Ensign. BTW, the Schiffsflaggen quick reference sheet is not totally accurate with respect to dates that various nations started or stopped hostilities against Germany. I will also nit-pick the KM issuing a handy-dandy reference book that gives the end-date of hostilities for both Allied and Axis nations, while the war is still going on(!); sure, I use it, but it's a lot like a "cheat"...:O:

Anyway, I have also attacked or nearly attacked unlighted Norwegian merchants at night and in bad weather/low visibility, identifying their flag as a Red Ensign, right up until getting within less than 1500m before seeing it clearly. I learned to do that the hard way...sank two of 'em on one patrol in '39 (thought I was due for an EK1, until I got back to homeport). The opposite also was (still is) true, I have mistaken Red Ensigns for Norwegian flags until the target ships got within 1500-2000m and their flags were clearly and completely visible. In my last career, which ended tragically in a minefield around Helgoland :dead:, I had the same kind of "aw $hit" moment when I sank a large Belgian merchant, sailing darkened off the Norwegian coast on a miserable, stormy night in April '40, after "clearly identifying" her Ensign as French.

So, I exercise extreme caution in those cases; when approaching a target vessel from forward of the beam, the aft superstructure can hide or partially obscure a flag on a fantail flagstaff and make positive identification difficult until the last moment. Anyway, considering events that took place in the "real world" of that time, you didn't do any worse than the best of the U-boat commanders. "Sink 'em all!" :arrgh!:

[captgeo]

welcome aboard....:up:

[WolfOfTheSteppes]

Hello Commanders,

My mistake, I checked again and my kill was indeed counted as an enemy ship. I sank it on September the 4th so indeed England was well into the war by then. When I looked at the statistics at the end of the mission, I misread what was written on it the first time. So everything looks good and there was nothing fishy after all. But thank you for your nice answers :arrgh!:

It’s amazing what GWX brings to this game. It’s definitely far more difficult to hunt that it used to be before. After I sunk my first ship, I kept patrolling the English eastern coasts. The weather is usually very bad and the sea extremely rough. I stumbled upon a Norwegian cargo. They had their flag clearly in view with spotlights aimed at it but I indeed had to come as close as 1500m to take a good look at it, and all their lights were on to warn about their neutrality. By contrast, English cargos usually turn all their lights off to be invisible. So if you see lights in the distance, chances are your contact is neutral.

After several days, I intercepted a medium English Cargo. I tried to engage it but a small destroyer came out of nowhere heading straight for the U51 (an escort probably). I dove and I was able to escape the grenades relatively easily but I abandoned the chase. The weather was too bad and I was in shallow water.

Close to Dover, I intercepted an enemy passenger cargo but I had received clear instructions from the BDU not to engage this type of ship (well I could have done it of course, but I always try to immerse myself into the game as much as I can).

Finally, I stumbled upon a small coastal freighter. The weather was bad and I thought I was sufficiently far away but it had already spotted me and started a diversion maneuver. I nonetheless successfully torpedoed it. Only two kills so far after weeks in the seas, already attacked by a warship and all that in a terrible weather. I would already have had close to six kills in the old days without GWX and this is just the beginning of the war. Guys, it’s going to be hard :rock:

Thanks for your welcome messages and your stories which are always very exciting to read. SINK 'EM ALL!!!!!!!! :salute:

[banryu79]

WolfOfTheSteppes! :salute:
Welcome herr kaleun, hope your time in Ubootabwehrschule had give you the right attitude for actual duty... and remember, no matter how well you will do:

BE MORE AGGRESSIVE! :arrgh!: