PSA for those with lots of RAM

[SilentPrey]

Don't forget to make sure sh4.exe is Large Address Aware when you decide to start over with a clean install. Here's the link to the thread describing the process:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=202192

I'm embarrassed to admit I've been crashing to desktop for several days and trying many combinations of mods because I forgot this step. I couldn't even get out of Pearl; as soon as I looked around windows was looking for a solution.

[TG626]

Mine works fine... Win7 and 6gb.

[merc4ulfate]

8 gigs here in vista and sailing fine.


I have never had an isue with ram or anything else when playing this game.

[CapnScurvy]

You two (TG626, merc4ulfate) are using the 3000 yard/meter Bearing Tool?

Choose the correct one for the Resolution your game is displaying; choose either the Yard or Meter version....depending on which meauring system you're using. Try putting it into your mod group and see what happens when you come up on a large convoy. Make sure you give it a good test (take a couple of shots, get 'em to start running), then tell us if your system can take it?

It's not your System that needs tweaking.....its the game. The 3000 yard/meter Bearing Tool will give your system a workout.

[TG626]

I use TMO.... and I tend to shy away from fixed resolution mods... But that does help qualify what makes for trouble.

[CapnScurvy]

What makes for trouble is using TMO and pulling out the ruler to measure the Bearing Overlay it has on the Nav Map. Not going to read the range accurately!!

In order to fix that little problem, each resolution had to have a corrected Bearing Overlay that will accurately give range and bearing. Unfortunately, the 3000 yard/meter Bearing Tool is a huge image for those using larger screen resolutions. Its going to display accurately, but at quite a cost to game memory. With a game that won't use over 2 gigs of memory, you can have 20 gigs of memory in your system, but still CTD with the right modification or situation.

[TG626]

True, I don't use the range rings, just the bearing which seems be accurate or at least close enough.

That big image is, as you say the issue. I suspect the variable reports of ctds are a matter of mods, and video cards...

[CapnScurvy]

The true reason for most CTD's is the lack of the game using more than 2 gig's of memory (even when your system has it available). That's without using an application like LAA.

The LAA forces the game to look for more memory within the limits of either a 32 or 64 bit OS. 32bit systems get an additional 1 gig of memory to work with......64bit systems get a total of 4 gig's. But, your game won't use any more than this, no matter how much your system has available.

It's just the way it is with this 10 year old game. It wasn't designed to do any more, nor was it designed to work well with the many game resolutions we have now. Wide screen anything were not even a "pipe dream" in 2004 when the SH4 game engine was put into practice with SHIII. A mod like the 3000 Yard Bearing Tool isn't at fault for making an accurate tool in-game, the game just won't display it as expected without the help of more RAM memory.

[merc4ulfate]

I do not use a bearing tool at all when I fire ... I have found it is not so hard to learn to lead a target.

Getting past escorts is also not so hard. I have found if I refrain from being greedy I can set under very deep and after the lead escort has past I simply rise to periscope depth and fire at the closest target.

At 1000 yards a lead of ten degrees is sufficient to strike the target. Capital ships I lead 15-20 degrees.

I do not see where loading a mod I do not need is necessary.

"you can have 20 gigs of memory in your system, but still CTD with the right modification or situation. "

I would rephrase this and instead say, "you can have 20 gigs of memory in your system, but still CTD with the WRONG modification or situation."

If your using a method of attack that does not require a tool that will over load a system ... then why use the tool? That would be like saying ... "Every time I drop a bomb to kill the fly in my house, my house cases on fire." and then complaining about it.

The bearing tool isn't needed it is desired by some. The desire to have a thing does not always equate to a pleasurable outcome.

I choose not to use it simply because I do not need it.

"A mod like the 3000 Yard Bearing Tool isn't at fault for making an accurate tool in-game".

I find it is a fault if your tool causes more harm than a service it provides. If the job can be done without the tool then I would say never load the tool. I do not need GPS to navigate but it is nice to have ... until the power goes out ... then those who rely on GPS to navigate are lost while those who know the stars will simply move along the path they have chosen.

There are ways of sinking ships in SH4 with manual settings without the bearing tool and they are affective methods.

There are some who use Kentucky windage when firing a rifle. It is little different for me when firing at a ship in the game.

[CapnScurvy]

Let me get this straight.

This thread was started by a community member pointing out the effective benefits of using an application for increasing the memory usage of a 10 year old game, and both TG626 and merc4ulfate promptly brag about their systems "working fine" and "never having an issue".

This app has worked for many people, with many different systems, used for many different games, yet, the best response from these two are in essence "WE DON"T NEED IT.....OUR COMPUTERS ARE SUPERIOR". Obviously you don't have enough knowledge to base your claim, or you fail to comprehend that this game will benefit from the extra memory your system has when the app is used.

I couldn't care less if you use the 3000 yard/meter Bearing Tool or not, EXCEPT, I challenged you both to put the mod into use, and then tell us that your system runs as you both so proudly boast. However, if you did so now, I wouldn't believe a word that either of you would say. You both have proven that your intent to praise yourselves in computer "school yard" up man-ship overshadows a legitimate application for forcing additional RAM usage in-game (that both of you could benefit from). :hmmm:

[TG626]

Slow your Roll, Cap'n... :timeout:

I wasn't boasting, I was stating a fact. The original post gave absolutely NO qualifiers for his own experience, simply stating that he had CTDs.

Further, in the absence of such qualifiers, he implies that sh4.exe will CTD on a system that has "lots of RAM" if it's not large address aware.

I therefore countered with my own experience, illustrating that such an assertion was not an absolute and further qualified it with declarations of my amount of RAM and OS in anticipation that this might be and unspoken part of the issue. Eg. he has Win8 and I have Win7, or 6mb isn't what he'd call "lot's of RAM" but rather some much larger number.

In hind sight I should have also stated it was 64bit, but we are well past that now that we have some qualifiers such as the large image files used for bearing tools.

So set your tampions, stow your shells, and relax...

:Kaleun_Cheers:

[Snarf]

Man, false hopes... I thought this may solve my CTD issue with the 40MM twin, must be a hard coded bug with the 40mm twin itself.

[Pisces]

Man, false hopes... I thought this may solve my CTD issue with the 40MM twin, must be a hard coded bug with the 40mm twin itself.If this thread has taught anything, then it is not to make assumptions in the cause of a CTD!

Many mods can conflict because they change the same files, but not in the same spot, and thus cause SH4 to CTD because it finds something that it does not understand, or can match with other files already loaded. So, first check if certain files are allready modified by other mods before it. Then ask the modmaker if and how these mods can be made compatible.

[edit] And I now realize that I may have made an assumption on the use of mods, instead of you may just have stock SH4.

[SilentPrey]

Wow. I seem to have started a riot.

To clear up a few things about why my post was apparently too vague, I'll detail my experience.

I run Win 7 64 with 8 gb ram on an Alienware M17xR3; i7-2630 2.00ghz; Radeon HD 6870M w/ 2gb. I have a lot running in the background as some of my work programs have components that run on start-up and I also keep all that laptop specific hardware mess running as well. (Drop sensor for HD preservation seems like a prudent thing to run since I do actually pick it up and carry it around when it's running.) This may leave less of the low address RAM available to SH4.

My SH4 is the Steam U-Boats version installed to C:\Steam instead of being in Program Files.

I was trying to get my mod setup tweaked to taste and decided that starting fresh was the way to go. I disabled all the mods in JSGME and then had Steam verify the game files and redownload the ones that didn't match up. This reverts sh4.exe to the non-LAA version but I forgot about that. I then enabled the mods I wanted, maxed the graphics and sound settings, started a new career and tried to leave Pearl. (I start in April '42 so I can start in a Gato.) As soon as I went to the bridge to look around, Windows was looking for a solution.

Mod list I use is:
1_TriggerMaru_Overhaul_2-5
TMO_Alternate_JS_Radar_Performance
1_TMO_25_small_patch
RSRDC_TMO_V502
RSRDC_V5xx_Patch1
1.5_Optical Targeting Correction 031312 for RSRDCv502
Traveller Mod v2.6 TMO
Traveller Mod 2.6 OTC 1.5 Patch
Traveller Mod 2.6 Larger Search Patterns
1.5_OTC for 16 to 9 Aspect Ratio RSRDCv502 (only the cameras.dat file, I deleted menu.txt from this one.)

So, I knew that I was treading on untested ground with the aspect ratio change for OTC activated after Trav's so I backed off a bit and tried again. Reverify with Steam then just TMO, RSRDC, and OTC (w/ 16:9). Same thing happened trying to leave Pearl.

So I did another verification with Steam and ran the artillery school. It worked fine, so I started a campaign in stock. Again, CTD leaving Pearl.

So, I crashed it with the mods I wanted, I crashed it with an abbreviated list, and I crashed it with stock. Every time though, I had maxed out graphics and sound. That's when I remembered needing to be able to use more RAM.

Now, I'm running a campaign with the mod list above. I started actually inside Pearl Harbor and drove out, looking around the whole time. I've completed two patrols already and am halfway through the third, hasn't crashed since I made it LAA.

I posted this thread because I was about to shelve the game completely when it kept crashing. I figured that if anyone else was having a similar issue I'd do what I could to aid his diagnostic process.

I'm sure I could have fixed it by dialing the graphics down but one of the main advantages of playing older games on a newer computer is being able to crank the performance specs straight to the top.

CapnScurvy, thank you very much for your work on OTC. Part of the reason I had this issue was wanting to try out Trav's mod without losing access to it. It's added to my game immeasurably.

Anyhow, sorry about the mess.

SilentPrey

[GlobalExplorer]

Mine works fine... Win7 and 6gb.

8 gigs here in vista and sailing fine.
I have never had an isue with ram or anything else when playing this game.

But you do realize that gigabytes are worthless unless they are used?

[GlobalExplorer]

I made a similar post in which I explain how to use the 3Gb patch and also wave file conversion. It has helped me a lot, but only if it's really properly configured.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=212510

Btw, it is a fact that LAA can solve crashes. I can definitely reproduce crashes with SHIII and LSH5.1 that were definitely gone when LAA was setup correctly.

Some people here have no use for 50% more RAM, because they already have superior computers. Fine. But please, please don't tell us that because YOU never have problems with the game, NO ONE ELSE must have problems with it. If YOU don't have problems you're just not adding enough stuff to the game, m'kay?

[TheDarkWraith]

What many, if not 99% of you, fail to realize is the amount of memory on your video card actually plays a huge role (and can be detrimental to system stability). Why? It's called memory mapping. Those of you with video cards that have more memory than system memory or the ratio of system memory to video memory is < 2:1 will always be on the verge of having problems with most games.

See here for more reading: http://www.oempcworld.com/support/4GB_RAM.htm

Point is medium to high-end video card with lots of on-board memory is VERY bad for run-of-the-mill system with 32 bit OS.

For playing games like these you need 64 bit OS and at least 16GB of RAM if you have a medium to high-end video card with large amounts of onboard RAM.

There are many other factors that can 'increase' the memory mapped size for the video card. The resolution you have set in the game is a contributing factor. If you seem to be crashing in games try lowering the resolution and detail items. This will then lower the amount of mapped memory from the video card.

In today's age it just isn't right to be running a 32 bit OS when 64bit processors are so cheap and readily available. Most games, even today, are compiled as a 32 bit app. Thus the most they can theoretically access is 2^32 or 4GB. Running a 64bit OS and large amounts of system RAM (>8GB) allows the OS flexibility in memory management. Majority of the time most apps fail or CTD because they asked for a memory allocation and it was denied or they were accessing a null pointer.

For the user who said his game was crashing when Windows reports that total system memory used was ~1.65GB this makes total sense. A 32 bit OS (Windows for instance) only allows 2GB per process. I wouldn't take that 2GB per process literally either - it's more like 1.7-2.0GB. The game tried to allocate additional memory. As it was near or at it's max limit it returned a null pointer for that allocation. Game crashed on null pointer. You can get windows (32 bit) to allocate 3GB per process with a switch set - once again in real life it's not actually 3GB - it's more like 90-100% of that.

How the application was compiled also makes a huge difference. Like I said most games are still compiled as 32bit apps.

[GlobalExplorer]

I'm pleased to hear the game runs so well on Windows 7 64 bit because that is going to be my next OS. But is there really a benefit of running a 64 bit OS if - as you point out - most programs are compiled as 32 bit apps?

[TheDarkWraith]

I'm pleased to hear the game runs so well on Windows 7 64 bit because that is going to be my next OS. But is there really a benefit of running a 64 bit OS if - as you point out - most programs are compiled as 32 bit apps?

The OS is the heart and soul. Why restrict the OS to a theoretical 4GB memory limit (2^32) instead of 16 exabytes (2^64)? With much more memory available to the OS it has much more flexibility in what it can do.

[GlobalExplorer]

With my current system it would make no difference then, because I have "just" 4Gb RAM. Core 2 Duo E8400, 1GB Video RAM and from what I can tell I can run all games that I need at decent frame rates. My next system will certainly have over 8Gb, so a 64 bit OS will be a must, but not right now.

Also don't forget that many people cannot upgrade for gaming, because they do work related stuff on their computers. When I upgrade I will probably need new versions of many developer tools, it's going to set off a whole domino chain of changes.

[TheDarkWraith]

Also don't forget that many people cannot upgrade for gaming, because they do work related stuff on their computers. When I upgrade I will probably need new versions of many developer tools, it's going to set off a whole domino chain of changes.

Windows 64 bit has a technology called Windows on Windows (WoW64). This allows 32 bit apps to run on the 64 bit OS. The only 'problems' I had when I moved to 64 bit were drivers. I had to find 64 bit drivers for most everything that is installed. All my current applications and programs ran fine on the 64 bit version of windows. If you can find/upgrade to applications that are native to 64bit that would be best because they will run 'faster' due to Windows not having to invoke WoW for compatibility.

For those applications that, for some reason or another, just will not run on Windows 64 bit they have included what they call XP mode (in the more advanced versions of Windows 64 bit). It's basically an XP virtual machine running for those apps.

[TG626]

That's one thing to look out for, various flavors of win 7 have different limits, like home doesn't have the xp mode and the max memory differs. Just be sure to do your research.

FWIW, I have home and I'm fine with no xp mode. 32 bit programs seem to run fine.

[GlobalExplorer]

I have configured and installed applications on computers with Windows 7. The XP mode solves many problems, but not all. There were massive issues when applications used to store data under C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\.. (XP), now that data ends up in AppData\Roaming\ (W7 and up). Now imagine a badly tested client application that assesses data with a fixed path and you have a situation where migration is not at all trivial.

Another example, many programs that used to be in C:\Programs now go to C:\Programs (x86), simply because otherwise W7 locks the rights to write into their own files, even writing a value into a simple <myApp>.ini would fail.

There are reason not everyone will update from XP for many years. Some still use software like AutoCAD 2000, that costs thousands of dollars, with parallel port dongles, and so on :) Personally I hope to make the switch this year, but I can't without careful preparation ..

Also, what TG626 said: Windows Home Editions have no XP compatibility mode

[merc4ulfate]

I think what some forget is that the game doesn't need all my 8 gigs of ram nor does it need a high end video card with 6 on board gigs of ram either.

I have had more trouble with modern games than this old hound.

To play some modern games I have actually had to dumb down my CPU in order for it to run because the game becomes unstable in multi-core processing.

I'm glad I keep oranges around.