Manual Targeting - Is There a Halfway-House

[ParaHandy]

I'm pretty new to this game (kudos to you all for keeping this forum and, to an extent, the game alive nearly a decade on). I'm playing the stock game with GWX and SH3 Commander.

I've been playing with most of the settings ticked apart from the big two. It's getting a little bit too easy for me to intercept a ship then fire off the eels. I'm just not sure I'm ready for 100% difficulty*.

I'm curious as to the effects the two separate boxes have. WO Assistance, and Manual Targeting. I can pretty much intercept a ship/convoy and get myself lined up to 90 degrees to the target almost without fail. How much of a stretch is it from here?

Also, if I play Naval Academy using manual targeting does the game walk me through the ins and outs?

I absolutely love this game, and can't believe I'd never so much as heard of it 6 months ago but I'm just finding it a bit easy playing the way I am now.

Cheers in advance...

:salute:

*I say difficulty as opposed to realism deliberately

[GreyBeard]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using WO assistance for targeting, especially if you add the h.sie realism and gameplay hard code fixes, found here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=174225 Target range will no longer be exact, but rather an estimate, so your WO won't say "Range, 5923 meters, Sir." Instead you will get "Range, 6000 meters, Sir." Makes it slightly more difficult to hit the target and you will experience more duds and malfunctioning torps too as well as a lot more. As far as learning manual targeting, there is a lot of info at this site, and some wonderful tutorials written by others.

:salute:

[Aktungbby]

ParaHandy!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Nukesub]

I'm pretty new to this game (kudos to you all for keeping this forum and, to an extent, the game alive nearly a decade on). I'm playing the stock game with GWX and SH3 Commander.

I've been playing with most of the settings ticked apart from the big two. It's getting a little bit too easy for me to intercept a ship then fire off the eels. I'm just not sure I'm ready for 100% difficulty*.

I'm curious as to the effects the two separate boxes have. WO Assistance, and Manual Targeting. I can pretty much intercept a ship/convoy and get myself lined up to 90 degrees to the target almost without fail. How much of a stretch is it from here?

Also, if I play Naval Academy using manual targeting does the game walk me through the ins and outs?

I absolutely love this game, and can't believe I'd never so much as heard of it 6 months ago but I'm just finding it a bit easy playing the way I am now.

Cheers in advance...

:salute:

*I say difficulty as opposed to realism deliberately


Ahoy!

I feel like we may be in a similar boat, so to speak.
I recently got interested in this game and really enjoy it, however one of my big draws was the thought of doing the manual targeting. For me, that means no weapons officer assist and manual targeting checked on!

Personally I am at 68% realism I think. I like to keep camera's and action cam type stuff on.

From what you are doing now it doesn't sound like it would be a big leap. Here are some resources I used to help acquaint me with manual targeting methods, primarily the fast 90 I believe it is called.

You may find that a bit more challenging. Just wait till you try to sink a juicy target in stormy weather and you can't get a good or confidence fix on their speed, and when you finally do the fish explodes halfway to target :wah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0rTksSnjho
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=1080

Good hunting :D

[banryu79]

I'm curious as to the effects the two separate boxes have. WO Assistance, and Manual Targeting. I can pretty much intercept a ship/convoy and get myself lined up to 90 degrees to the target almost without fail. How much of a stretch is it from here?

I like to keep WO on, just for confirm the identification of ships and I never use him to compute a fire solution.
I mean, I always do the ID process by myself and then, when I have choosen the target ID, I just ask for the WO "opinion" to know if I guessed correctly or not.
In this way I'm able to estimate my successful IDs rate and is something around 80%.

About manual targeting: I'm currently playing my very first war patrol (secondo patrol in GWX, starting in 1939) and I'm doing manual tageting.
I think it is no difficult, and indeed a fun part of the game.

The method mentioned by Nukesub, the "Fast 90° attack" is a good starting point.
Then you can read and learn about the "Straight shot" and the "Perfect shot" methods (you can find a document about them if you download hsGUI mod). Here is a post in which I talk about them (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2191048&postcount=56).

[raymond6751]

In real life they had the "attack team" plotting each firing. The captain didn't do it all. He was at the scope and so would feed the details to his team. The 'solution' was calculated by the team.

I suggest to keep the WO for those difficult times or lazy times. The duds will get you either way! <grin>

Happy Hunting

[Aras]

This is a great post about Manual Targetting and Intercepting the targets. You should check it out http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961

[banryu79]

This is a great post about Manual Targetting and Intercepting the targets. You should check it out http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961
Oh, yes, really helpful (was the first tutorial I red and really helped me a lot).
Just for completness I post here a link to the paulwasserman site/tutorial:
Wazoo's Manual Charting & Targeting Tutorial [v 2.3] (http://www.paulwasserman.net/)

[ParaHandy]

Some really helpful replies here, thanks to you all. I'm definitely going to give this a try. Can I ask, is there a way to start a career with SH3 Commander and still go through naval academy?

[Pisces]

Manual targeting means you need to, or are allowed to (depends on how you look at it), change the TDC dials and notepad thingy. Instead of them being automatically set when you lock onto something.

Weapon officer assistance allows him to set the propper TDC settings when you wish to consult him. So this allows both ways in a sense. Doing everything yourself by ignoring him, or let the crew do the difficult solution part when you are lost or unsure.

The naval academy missions do not change one bit if you set manual targeting or weapon officer realism settings. It just means you need to/can do more stuff on your own. The videos on the DVD (and thesedays also on youtube) are considered the 'tutorial' by Ubisoft. There is no handholding in the game academy missions. Well, maybe slightly during the first navigation mission.

Some really helpful replies here, thanks to you all. I'm definitely going to give this a try. Can I ask, is there a way to start a career with SH3 Commander and still go through naval academy?Sure, when the game has started, just select the academy instead of the campaign part. Makes no difference.

[maillemaker]

I played with manual targeting with map contacts on for years. I think this is a fine way to learn to operate the TDC while having the benefit of a "god's eye view" of the tactical situation on the nav and attack maps.

With map contacts on, it should be relatively trivial to set up a 90 degree attack approach and also exactly determine target speed and heading.

Raise your scope, lock the enemy ship, and it will show up on your maps. You can even lock to them in poor visibility when you cannot actually see them! :)

Then you just zoom in on them and draw a line through them and you get a nice target course track to intercept. Draw a mark on them and another one on them 3 minutes and 15 seconds later and you have their exact speed.

At this point, you just drive 90 degrees to intercept and set your TDC Angle of Attack to 90 degrees starboard or port (depending on whether your sub is on the starboard or port side of the target) and then move the scope left or right until the gyroangle reads 0 degrees. Then fire when the target crosses your vertical crosshair.

Things don't get really fuzzy until you turn off map contacts. :D

Steve

[ParaHandy]

This is a great post about Manual Targetting and Intercepting the targets. You should check it out http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=88961

That's a great thread, I'm going thru the stages now. One part I seem to come unstuck at is inputting the speed and range into the data notepad. I can input AOB fine (I'm ahead of the target at a 90 deg angle to his path so I assume it's 90 STB I enter) but I can't seem to enter the other two pieces of data.

[ParaHandy]

Definitely getting the hang of it now. I've started a career with a Type VII out of Wilhelmshaven. First patrol in October '39 and I've sunk 3 merchants for about 15000GRT NW of the Orkneys. WE assistance off and manual data gathering. I'm using the easy method, lining up a shot at 90deg and then inputting the range and speed on the TDC.

Loving this. It's a great feeling waiting til the right moment and pressing that fire button. :rock:

[Pisces]

... (I'm ahead of the target at a 90 deg angle to his path so I assume it's 90 STB I enter) ...Look at the direction of the needle, and compare this to the direction the target moves through your view. ;)

That's a great thread, I'm going thru the stages now. One part I seem to come unstuck at is inputting the speed and range into the data notepad. I can input AOB fine ... but I can't seem to enter the other two pieces of data.

If you use the notepad thing, then for entering range you need to first make sure the target has been properly ID-ed and first placing the line on the waterline, then using the stadimeter to put the line at the top of the target where the flag would be (due to rendering issues the flag or the ultimate top of the mast may not be shown, so you might need to guesstimate where it is.)

With the notepad you don't really measure speed. But you measure bearing drift angle. The stopwatch takes care of time. Using the previous values range and AOB the notepad 'computer' computes the distance the target has moved over this angle, and from that the speed over that period. For this to be accurate, range and angle on the bow needs to be accurate. Additionally, the bearing drift angle should not be chosen too small. The time period should be as long as is practical. Just a matter of seconds is not going to help accuracy in speed.

If you already know the speed and range through other means (plotting, or 'fixed wire' method) then it is easier to enter the values directly into the TDC dials on the Attack map screen (F6). First make sure you set the Auto-TDC switch to Manual. Then you can set the dials. Then set the Auto-TDC switch back and do your aiming business. Just realize that the range dial needs to be set for the moment of firing. It is not updated over time, in contrast to the AOB when you move the periscope. If you shoot perpendicular to the target track then the range doesn't change very much as the target gets close to the 90 degree AOB point (closest point of approach), compared to when it was further away with lower AOB. So you don't have to be really quick in setting it. And if you have plotted the target track then you can measure the minimal distance to the track, and enter that.

[banryu79]

Just realize that the range dial needs to be set for the moment of firing. It is not updated over time, in contrast to the AOB when you move the periscope. If you shoot perpendicular to the target track then the range doesn't change very much as the target gets close to the 90 degree AOB point (closest point of approach), compared to when it was further away with lower AOB. So you don't have to be really quick in setting it. And if you have plotted the target track then you can measure the minimal distance to the track, and enter that.
And if he learn and use the "Straight shot" method and/or the "Perfect shot" method he doesn't need to estimate range at all, that's the beauty of these methods! :up:

[Friscobay]

I'm pretty new to this game (kudos to you all for keeping this forum and, to an extent, the game alive nearly a decade on). I'm playing the stock game with GWX and SH3 Commander.

I've been playing with most of the settings ticked apart from the big two. It's getting a little bit too easy for me to intercept a ship then fire off the eels. I'm just not sure I'm ready for 100% difficulty*.

I'm curious as to the effects the two separate boxes have. WO Assistance, and Manual Targeting. I can pretty much intercept a ship/convoy and get myself lined up to 90 degrees to the target almost without fail. How much of a stretch is it from here?

Also, if I play Naval Academy using manual targeting does the game walk me through the ins and outs?

I absolutely love this game, and can't believe I'd never so much as heard of it 6 months ago but I'm just finding it a bit easy playing the way I am now.

Cheers in advance...

:salute:

*I say difficulty as opposed to realism deliberately


Welcome Aboard ParaHandy!:salute:


My own experience was that repetitive viewing of a 2007 YOUTUBE video created by a WERNERSOBE [ which drew me to SUBSIM to begin with ] of the TDC basic-use tutorial, got me to first base in calculating shots without disabling manual targeting. Within only the space of a few hours, saving and resaving over and over again using the moment when I was perfectly at right angle to a Japanese large freighter, I began entering the data first blowing it by failing to follow a step, and then parking three fish in succession into the bow and midships of the target and sending her to Davy Jones upon getting sequencing correct.
After mastering this portion of targeting then, it was off to directional calculations on the navigational map and the use of rulers, pencils, and protractors where I thanked Neptune that I was decent at Trig back in school. I see this as a sort of ''phase two'' of learning the whole range of manual targeting and acquisition. Back to the TDC tutorial, and it really is a case of ''practice makes perfect''.

Good Hunting!


Silent Hunter 4 Basic TDC Tutorial--WernerSobe - YouTube (http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVxyEKEBTyhEABx1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzYzlxaGx 0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDM4NV8x/RV=2/RE=1396742405/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3dtFqp Z5jRljo/RK=0/RS=lI4F9_.xw9.KJABOkSYmKs6EWak-) http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sacore:green.gif (https://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dtfqpz5jrljo/-?pip=false&premium=false&client_uid=2184765179&client_ver=3.6.6.121&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&ui=1&os_ver=6.1.1.0)



www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFqpZ5jRljo Cached (http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVxyEKEBTyhEABh1XNyoA/RV=2/RE=1396742405/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2f98.139.21.31%2fsearch%2fsrpcache%3 fei%3dUTF-8%26p%3dsilent%2bhunter%2b4%2btdc%2btutorial%26pvi d%3d.AiLazk4LjEuSbfHUz9e_AL9NzAuMVNAInD_rlG4%26fr% 3dyfp-t-326-21-s%26u%3dhttp%3a%2f%2fcc.bingj.com%2fcache.aspx%3fq %3dsilent%2bhunter%2b4%2btdc%2btutorial%26d%3d4703 527359808744%26mkt%3den-US%26setlang%3den-US%26w%3d2lNKGSVElNJa6p4Z8YEeT4bp8s2soAZk%26icp%3d 1%26.intl%3dus%26sig%3dtBf5oiqrp9dZsKnII5XXCA--/RK=0/RS=J8uYJ22vTFBQ2sVg6UkCnXrVGzE-)
This is the quintessential video on how to manually target using the American TDC in Silent Hunter 4 published in July 2007 by WernerSobe. This is the ...

[Tupolev]

My own personal experiences has shown target speed to be the absolute most critical factor for accuracy. The most accurate way (in my experiences) to estimate target speed is to steer a parallel course and match speed to the target.

All you need to do is plot the target's course, steer that course, then adjust your speed until the relative bearing to the target no longer changes. Your speed = target speed. If you're shooting 90 AOB and 0 gyro, accurate range isn't going to be a factor.

Now, being able to tell if you're speeds are correctly matched can be hard in heavy seas, but thats the added challenge in crappy weather. I'll often give up on an attack in situations like that.

If I'm forced to attempt a submerged attack or otherwise can't match speeds on the surface, I think fixed-wire is a better estimate than a plotting estimate. You can take lots fixed-wire measurements and average them in the same time it takes to plot.

On the other hand, I've also played using WO assistance and just cranked the failure % on h.sie's patch to replicate misses.

T

[Warren Peace]

Personally, I keep WO assistance on at all times (thankfully the mods I'm running don't dock me points for this, still at 100% 'realism'). He's a dead useful mammal, especially when surfaced. Ask him for the nearest visual contact, he'll give you a range and bearing. Plot that point on your map, wait 3 minutes and 15 seconds, then ask him again and plot the second point. From those two points, you have everything you need to get his course (connect the dots), range (draw a line/circle from your where you will be shooting from to his course line. It's not perfect, but it is close enough that it won't matter), speed (take the distance between both dots and multiply by 10), and AOB (use the protractor to draw a line from your boat to the target, then along the targets course. The angle you get is the AOB).

It isn't perfectly accurate, nor the easiest method, but it taught me pretty much everything I know about manual shooting.

[ParaHandy]

I appreciate every reply, thanks for taking the time to help me out.

What I'm doing at the moment is tracking the target's speed using the 3.15 sec. method. I'm drawing a course of the target's heading and then just lining up at exactly 90deg to it's course. I'm then using the zoomed in map to work out my rage to the path of the target. The speed and range are then input into the TDC and the AOB set at 90 deg. Once in position I'll use my rudder to fine tune the angle and continually check speed and heading and make fine adjustments on the TDC. It's been fine so far, but I'd imagine it's a very rudimentary approach which will be limited - I'm halfway thru my second patrol and the only torpedo I've missed with was one which failed half way to the target.

The seas have been rough so would that render the Stadimeter useless anyway? I'm not even sure I'd trust myself as I'm hopeless using the recognition manual anyway. As far as the speed is concerned I've not really figured out how to use the Data Notepad for calculating speed yet. Any advice on this?

ETA - I'm setting my shots up at a range of around 700 - 900 metres. I'm not sure why other than it's worked so far for me. Is there an optimal range for using my methods?

[Pisces]

Yes, as close as possible and just outside of torpedo arm distance (400m give or take). The closer the target is, the wider angle it's bow and stern make. So the best margin of error.

But proximity increases the danger of detection (especially later in the war). And even you yourself can become collateral damage if things start flying in the air after torpedoes hit. So there is a trade-off.


Speed
Like I said, notepad procedure to get speed is not so optimal. It depends too much on uncertain measurements. Instead try the 'Fixed wire'-method:

Turn your bow (or aft) just in front of the target.

Set periscope to the bow (or 180 at aft). This eliminates your own speed from corrupting the following time measurement, or else you would need to be at a dead-stop.

Make sure your boat has stopped turning before the target starts crossing the line. (Make sure you have rudder amidship, and no waypoint active)

Time the duration of the target passing across the periscope line.

Use the time to ID the target, at least good enough to identify it's length from all the other classes. Alot of them have the same length in the game.

Grab your calculator: Divide length in meters, by time in seconds. This is the speed in meters per second. (Obviously)

Then to convert to knots simply multiply by 2 (to be exact it would need to be 1.94)

This method doesn't work that well when only the bow or the stern is in view, as it's width obstructs the view. But it works for most of the AOB range.