SH5 vs SH3 w/ GWX3 questions

[Tool]

I've played gwx3 for a long time.. how does it compare to sh5? Were the mod developers from gwx involved with the production of sh5? I know visually it has to be miles ahead but is the gameplay as immersive as the older version? I've read a lot of reviews with there being a lot of bugs and issues with sh5, so I thought I'd ask the experts :)

Thanks..

[BigWalleye]

The only easy way I know to kick off a flaming match on SubSim is to ask people to compare SH3 and SH5. It's a touchy subject, especially as it is mostly a matter of personal opinion. Ask the same question here and on the SH3 forum, and you will get two very contradictory and equally impassioned sets of responses.

Two things that can be said without (too much) controversy are that the SH5 graphics are vastly better and that SH5 needs extensive modding to be comparable in stability to SH3.

Beyond those points, the games can both be had for about $10 max. Often, you can get them for half that. So there is no great investment in trying them both and seeing which you like. That is the best way to answer your question.

No, AFAIK, the GWX team had nothing to do with SH5.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Check out some of the previous threads on the subject, lots of info about to be found. The search function is your friend here.

[Sailor Steve]

Both of the above answers are very good, but I feel the need to answer anyway. Since you've been around for eight years I would think you'd know whether that question has been asked before. here is the answer I gave to someone who asked it just two weeks ago.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=211854

I've played gwx3 for a long time.. how does it compare to sh5?
It's much prettier. There is much interaction with the senior officers, but much less crew to manage. The goals are different, and the gameplay is different. Whether those are more to your liking or less so is something only you can determine. Many people love the game, and many prefer the style of the older versions.

Were the mod developers from gwx involved with the production of sh5?
No.

I know visually it has to be miles ahead but is the gameplay as immersive as the older version?
That depends on what you find immersive.

I've read a lot of reviews with there being a lot of bugs and issues with sh5, so I thought I'd ask the experts :)
There are no experts here, just a bunch of opinionated gamers. :O:

Well, there are experts at making mods for the games, but they're just as opinionated as the rest of us. You might as well buy it cheap and see what you think. You might be one of the ones who swears by it, and you might be one of the ones who swears at it. Either way, in the long run there's only one opinion that really counts, and you'll have to give that yourself. :sunny:

[Targor Avelany]

HAHAHAHAAH!!!! Nice one, Steve :)))

You got us on "opinionated"! :har:

[TheDarkWraith]

I've read a lot of reviews with there being a lot of bugs and issues with sh5, so I thought I'd ask the experts :)

I wish someone would review the game as it stands now. Night and day difference. My Generic Patcher fixes just about all, if not all, the bugs and issues with the game on release day and after the first official patch. Not to mention it also adds many new items to the game, some for the first time ever since SHI and SHII :yep: And last but not least, I continue to develop patches for SH5 to turn it into the ultimate submarine simulator :up: Eventually I will have SH5 as the benchmark to which all others are compared to, at least that is my goal.

[Targor Avelany]

I wish someone would review the game as it stands now. Night and day difference. My Generic Patcher fixes just about all, if not all, the bugs and issues with the game on release day and after the first official patch. Not to mention it also adds many new items to the game, some for the first time ever since SHI and SHII :yep: And last but not least, I continue to develop patches for SH5 to turn it into the ultimate submarine simulator :up: Eventually I will have SH5 as the benchmark to which all others are compared to, at least that is my goal.

Hey Steve, you also forgot "proud"! :P :know: :rotfl2:

@TDW: no offence intended, but. You know that I believe you are doing unbelievably amazing work!

[BigWalleye]

I wish someone would review the game as it stands now. Night and day difference. My Generic Patcher fixes just about all, if not all, the bugs and issues with the game on release day and after the first official patch. Not to mention it also adds many new items to the game, some for the first time ever since SHI and SHII :yep: And last but not least, I continue to develop patches for SH5 to turn it into the ultimate submarine simulator :up: Eventually I will have SH5 as the benchmark to which all others are compared to, at least that is my goal.

TDW, you have done magnificent work. You have cleaned up the mess Ubi released and added many unique capabilities. But will it ever be possible to eliminate the scripted, nodal nature of the game?

I realize that a nodal storyline is necessary if the player's actions are going to influence the game's history in any meaningful way. But I don't want to be able to change history. (What if I helped the Nazis win the war? <retch.>) I am an alum of SH1 and SH3. I want a free-flowing campaign within the history we already know. Can this ever be possible in SH5?

[TheDarkWraith]

TDW, you have done magnificent work. You have cleaned up the mess Ubi released and added many unique capabilities. But will it ever be possible to eliminate the scripted, nodal nature of the game?

I realize that a nodal storyline is necessary if the player's actions are going to influence the game's history in any meaningful way. But I don't want to be able to change history. (What if I helped the Nazis win the war? <retch.>) I am an alum of SH1 and SH3. I want a free-flowing campaign within the history we already know. Can this ever be possible in SH5?

How do you call it scripted with the work that was done, and continues to be done, by Trevally with his OHII mod? Every game is scripted to some point - it has to be because there are certain 'rules and laws' the game has to follow.

If you still call that scripted then how are you and others trying to fix/remedy this? Are you digging into the files trying to learn the game and why it does what it does? Do you ever see something in the game and think to yourself, why does it do that/why does it have to be that way? And then go and investigate it?

I think I just uncovered one of the great mysteries of SH5 with one of my newest patches - the render distance increase patch. I believe that SHI through SHIV had all units as active units in the game, it only rendered them when they were within a certain radius of the player's unit. This gave the feeling of a dynamic campaign because it was - everything was interacting/reacting with everything at any given moment in time. SH5 is a total different beast in this regard. Units are only spawned and active when they are within a certain radius of the player's unit. Outside of this radius they have their position updated, waypoints updated, etc. BUT they do not interact with ANY other units or anything for that matter. This means they never detect other units or engage other units. I think you can see why it feels like SH5 is a 'scripted' campaign now. Why did the devs do this with SH5? Your guess is as good as mine but one can infer from REing all the files and mapping/charting it all that it's because of the complexity SH5 introduces that wasn't available in ealier titles. It's so complex that the devs have tons of timers in it to make the game fluid. A certain timer when it expires has units check for contacts, another one when expired updates unit's data (they call it 'evolve') - there are timers for just about everything. If these timers weren't there the game's FPS would probably hover around 5-10. There's a lot of processing going on in this game.

This game has tremendous potential - it's really amazing what it was coded to do intentionally and unintentionally.

I'm willing to bet that if you opened the render distance to about 1/4 to 1/2 the game world using my newest patch that SH5 wouldn't feel so 'scripted' to you :yep:

[Tool]

Yea, I do know better than to ask that question sometimes, but I just had to try :)

I've been playing GWX with SH3 for a long time but am having issues mainly with graphics with my new nvidia card, ie. doesn't utilize my entire 24" screen but it does do the full widescreen at least. And yea, it isn't nearly as pretty but I have always loved it, but for $10 I may just give SH5 a try and see what I think.

Thanks for the advice :)

[ReallyDedPoet]

You won't regret picking up SH5. Just be patient and be sure to check out some of the great threads-mods.

[BigWalleye]

How do you call it scripted with the work that was done, and continues to be done, by Trevally with his OHII mod? Every game is scripted to some point - it has to be because there are certain 'rules and laws' the game has to follow.

If you still call that scripted then how are you and others trying to fix/remedy this? Are you digging into the files trying to learn the game and why it does what it does? Do you ever see something in the game and think to yourself, why does it do that/why does it have to be that way? And then go and investigate it?

I think I just uncovered one of the great mysteries of SH5 with one of my newest patches - the render distance increase patch. I believe that SHI through SHIV had all units as active units in the game, it only rendered them when they were within a certain radius of the player's unit. This gave the feeling of a dynamic campaign because it was - everything was interacting/reacting with everything at any given moment in time. SH5 is a total different beast in this regard. Units are only spawned and active when they are within a certain radius of the player's unit. Outside of this radius they have their position updated, waypoints updated, etc. BUT they do not interact with ANY other units or anything for that matter. This means they never detect other units or engage other units. I think you can see why it feels like SH5 is a 'scripted' campaign now. Why did the devs do this with SH5? Your guess is as good as mine but one can infer from REing all the files and mapping/charting it all that it's because of the complexity SH5 introduces that wasn't available in ealier titles. It's so complex that the devs have tons of timers in it to make the game fluid. A certain timer when it expires has units check for contacts, another one when expired updates unit's data (they call it 'evolve') - there are timers for just about everything. If these timers weren't there the game's FPS would probably hover around 5-10. There's a lot of processing going on in this game.

This game has tremendous potential - it's really amazing what it was coded to do intentionally and unintentionally.

I'm willing to bet that if you opened the render distance to about 1/4 to 1/2 the game world using my newest patch that SH5 wouldn't feel so 'scripted' to you :yep:

I asked if SH5 can ever be taken beyond what I feel is a very nodal campaign structure. I take it your answer is "Yes." You have obviously found some ways which you believe would affect the flow of the storyline, making it more open. I figured that, if there was a way, you would be most likely to know of it.

Do I want to get involved in improving those aspects of the game I don't care for? In a word, no. I've been a programmer, and that's not how I want to spend my retirement. But I wasn't trying to place an order for mods that I would like to see somebody else build for me, either. My question wasstrightforward: Do you, as the modder most knowledgeable about the structure and potential of the game engine, think these issues can ever be addressed? Does the SH5 engine have the capability to address them? Your answer was positive. Thanks for the insight.

[TheDarkWraith]

I asked if SH5 can ever be taken beyond what I feel is a very nodal campaign structure. I take it your answer is "Yes." You have obviously found some ways which you believe would affect the flow of the storyline, making it more open. I figured that, if there was a way, you would be most likely to know of it.

SH5's campaign is very much like SH3 and SH4. Look at the MissionEditor app and you'll see they're almost identical between SH3, SH4, and SH5. I'm almost 99% sure the reason SH5's campaign seems so 'static' is because of the render distance from player's sub of 40000.0m limitation and how the game updates the units outside of that distance. Like I mentioned though if you set the patch variable for the render distance increase patch to 1/4 to 1/2 the game's world size and enable that patch you'll probably find the campaign 'dynamic'.

[BigWalleye]

SH5's campaign is very much like SH3 and SH4. Look at the MissionEditor app and you'll see they're almost identical between SH3, SH4, and SH5. I'm almost 99% sure the reason SH5's campaign seems so 'static' is because of the render distance from player's sub of 40000.0m limitation and how the game updates the units outside of that distance. Like I mentioned though if you set the patch variable for the render distance increase patch to 1/4 to 1/2 the game's world size and enable that patch you'll probably find the campaign 'dynamic'.

Interesting! And very enticing!:)

I have a middle-weight machine and that trick might stop it dead in the water. But it might be worth finding out.

Now I have to get my SH5 mods up to date....

[Trevally.]

How do you call it scripted with the work that was done, and continues to be done, by Trevally with his OHII mod? Every game is scripted to some point - it has to be because there are certain 'rules and laws' the game has to follow.



thanks TDW:up:

I asked if SH5 can ever be taken beyond what I feel is a very nodal campaign structure. I take it your answer is "Yes." You have obviously found some ways which you believe would affect the flow of the storyline, making it more open. I figured that, if there was a way, you would be most likely to know of it.

Do I want to get involved in improving those aspects of the game I don't care for? In a word, no. I've been a programmer, and that's not how I want to spend my retirement. But I wasn't trying to place an order for mods that I would like to see somebody else build for me, either. My question wasstrightforward: Do you, as the modder most knowledgeable about the structure and potential of the game engine, think these issues can ever be addressed? Does the SH5 engine have the capability to address them? Your answer was positive. Thanks for the insight.

If anyone wants info about how SH5 campaign works and can be modded - I would be more than happy to help:sunny:

[BigWalleye]

If anyone wants info about how SH5 campaign works and can be modded - I would be more than happy to help:sunny:

Trevally, I dind not mean to diss your fine work on OHII. (Although I suppose I did so inadvertently. Sincere apologies for that.) OHII opens up the game tremendously. My question was aimed at how far the game engine can practically be modified, and how much flexibility it permits. I took it on faith that you have achieved as much is possible without changing the machine code.

[ReallyDedPoet]

My question was aimed at how far the game engine can practically be modified, and how much flexibility it permits.

I am still amazed that SH3 was stretched as far as it was and still is :yep:, almost 10 years later. So SH5 has much more room to grow.

[TheDarkWraith]

My question was aimed at how far the game engine can practically be modified, and how much flexibility it permits.

There is no correct answer to this. It's a question of:
- how much time does one have to decode/understand it
- how much time does one want to put into adding code to make it do whatever they want it to do

The game engine can be made to do anything. Take Falcon 4.0 for instance - they completely changed the game engine in that game. It's all a matter of time and skill :yep:

[Tool]

"The game engine can be made to do anything. Take Falcon 4.0 for instance - they completely changed the game engine in that game. It's all a matter of time and skill :yep:"

I agree. I fly falcon, and have since the Falcon3 was out in the early 90s. BMS is incredible.. and just shows that a sim that is now 16 years old can still be cutting edge.

[TheDarkWraith]

I agree. I fly falcon, and have since the Falcon3 was out in the early 90s. BMS is incredible.. and just shows that a sim that is now 16 years old can still be cutting edge.

Yes BMS is incredible. I still haven't mastered dogfighting or using the radar :shifty: