View Full Version : A social-demographic revolution changing America from skin to bone
Skybird
03-19-14, 06:51 AM
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2014/03/2014-03-07_generations-report-version-for-web.pdf
Take my word for it, if global civilization's structures and patterns survive (which I do not take for granted), in 50 years you will not recognise American mainstream thinking and attitudes anymore when comparing them to those valid for the present, or the past decades. It's not the first time I point at this, isn't it. The huge shift towards a socialist basic order and a rise in faith in a strong state is obvious since many years now. The massive ethnic changes in the national population, especially in critical hotspot regions and metropoles, take place since longer time now. And it will force those parts of the more conservative, white population to adapt to the changing demands coming from these changes, else they will not be able to hold out themselves.
Before the end of this century I predict both Europe and America will either have turned into autocratic dictatorships, or will have collapsed completely.
Dread Knot
03-19-14, 08:05 AM
If any of those graphs have any validity, the remaining Republicans may need to apply for federal protection under the Endangered Species Act.
Wolferz
03-19-14, 08:18 AM
... to the Idiocracy if ever I saw one. :roll:
Skybird
03-19-14, 08:23 AM
If any of those graphs have any validity, the remaining Republicans may need to apply for federal protection under the Endangered Species Act.
My argument since years. Conservative whites of European cultural heritage have been the key basis of their pool of voters, but these classes of the population decline in numbers, which means Republicans either adapt their policies to meet the demands of the "new Americans", to call them this way to give them a name, or the Republicans will no longer find enough voters sooner or later that would bring them into power.
I assume the laager mentality of the Tea Party owes to the feeling that the conservative power basis is eroding.
Wolferz
03-19-14, 08:27 AM
The dinosaurs didn't last either.
The conservatives are like Brontosauri and their days are numbered.
Dread Knot
03-19-14, 08:28 AM
... to the Idiocracy if ever I saw one. :roll:
You can always tell when a Gen Xer or a Millennial has finally come of age and joined the establishment. That's when they pay two grand in laser work to get a $50 tattoo removed to improve their promotion prospects. :D
Dread Knot
03-19-14, 08:32 AM
My argument since years. Conservative whites of European cultural heritage have been the key basis of their pool of voters, but these classes of the population decline in numbers, which means Republicans either adapt their policies to meet the demands of the "new Americans", to call them this way to give them a name, or the Republicans will no longer find enough voters sooner or later that would bring them into power.
The WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) are certainly fading fast as a cohesive group. You rarely hear the term anymore, even disparagingly.
u crank
03-19-14, 08:42 AM
Take my word for it, if global civilization's structures and patterns survive (which I do not take for granted), in 50 years you will not recognise American mainstream thinking and attitudes anymore when comparing them to those valid for the present, or the past decades.
Considering all things in this rapidly changing digital world, that is not a very bold prediction Sky. I'd lower the time frame to 20 years or less.
As to 'Millennials In Adulthood', I do not see a single surprising statistic in it. Silent and Baby Boomer generation more patriotic and religious...who would have guessed. Generation that knows what a selfie is...again, shocking results.
Before the end of this century I predict both Europe and America will either have turned into autocratic dictatorships, or will have collapsed completely.
Perhaps in this evolving world the Chinese will save us. :D
The dinosaurs didn't last either.
Evolution works.:O:
Wolferz
03-19-14, 08:55 AM
Evolution works.:O:
Until it gets interrupted by an outside force. (BFR from space) in this instance.:huh:
Perhaps in this evolving world the Chinese will save us. :D The evidence for that is foretold in recent Science Fiction television and movies. Ah so.:shifty:
That leaves only the following quandary...
Do we learn Mandarin or Cantonese?
Ducimus
03-19-14, 09:00 AM
The huge shift towards a socialist basic order and a rise in faith in a strong state is obvious since many years now.
It's certainly been an ongoing thing here in the states, and a long time in the making. One can only hope the scandals as of the last few years have woken people up, but I doubt it. In areas like California, there's this rising trend of shuffling off personal responsibility to someone or something else, and this acceptance of a authority in most every facet of life. For example, just to go hiking in the local mountains, requires a permit. I never heard of that as a kid, but i sure found out about it a few years ago when i came off a trail and had some officer checking everyone for a permit as they came off the trail.
Before the end of this century I predict both Europe and America will either have turned into autocratic dictatorships, or will have collapsed completely.
If the financial system doesn't collapse first. Right now there is a niggling belief amongst many people that something significant and bad is going to happen in the future. A belief which i happen to share. I do not know what it is, or when it will happen, but a collapse in society is not out of the question.
If any of those graphs have any validity, the remaining Republicans may need to apply for federal protection under the Endangered Species Act.
Depends on where you live. In california, republicans, and right leaning people in general are an endangered species. The left has a super majority there, which is only driving people who are not left out of the state, which is only making the state that much worse.
... to the Idiocracy if ever I saw one. :roll:
Seriously.
The dinosaurs didn't last either.
The conservatives are like Brontosauri and their days are numbered.
My personal opinion, as the right wing goes, is that neoconservative is the dinosaur in the room. The way of the future looks more to be some measured amount of libertarianism.
The WASPS (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) are certainly fading fast as a cohesive group. You rarely hear the term anymore, even disparagingly.
Again, depends on where you live. Try Utah, or some of the states surrounding Utah like Colorado, Wyoming, and you'll find white anglo saxon protestant as the norm.
AVGWarhawk
03-19-14, 10:15 AM
If the financial system doesn't collapse first. Right now there is a niggling belief amongst many people that something significant and bad is going to happen in the future. A belief which i happen to share. I do not know what it is, or when it will happen, but a collapse in society is not out of the question.
End of the world has been peddled for a long time.
Ducimus
03-19-14, 11:36 AM
End of the world has been peddled for a long time.
True. But im not saying it's the end of the world ala doomsday prepper. Only that I think something significant and bad is going to happen sometime in our lifetime that will cause a serious and fundamental shift in how we live our lives. The way our government is being ran, I think the most likely thing will happen is the financial system or the dollar itself collapses. Don't fool yourself, our economy is living on borrowed time. (http://youtu.be/jKpVlDSIz9o)
The growth political independence is very promising.
No more voting by tradition or association with camps.
Actually far from predicted idiocracy.
Skybird
03-19-14, 12:57 PM
End of the world has been peddled for a long time.
But nobody in this thread has mentioned that. A collapsing civilization and the end of the world, are two different things.
Though in affected regions it sometimes has meant one and the same thing for the human population (examples may be certain Polynesian islands, or the Easter islands).
As a matter of fact, I think the example of the Easter Island is pretty much a pattern that we follow today again. Like they trusted their elites, we trust ours. Like they obeyed their elites telling them to influence fate by honouring tradition but just a little bit more - by buolding more stone monuments - , we beleive our elites telling us that we just need to keep our coarse, just need to do a little bit more, strengtening the self-dynamic of our institutions and beliefs and policies that has started to bring us into a dangerous mess. Like they did not revolt against their elites that just tried to buy time to stay in power, we stay indifferent and let things slide and do not revolt against our political and religious elites who only act on behalf of buying time to stay in power.
These ways are no ways.
Wolferz
03-19-14, 01:06 PM
You can always tell when a Gen Xer or a Millennial has finally come of age and joined the establishment. That's when they pay two grand in laser work to get a $50 tattoo removed to improve their promotion prospects. :D
Case in point...
http://news.msn.com/offbeat/maine-mans-gun-turns-out-to-be-a-tattoo
:har::har:
Take my word for it, if global civilization's structures and patterns survive (which I do not take for granted), in 50 years you will not recognise American mainstream thinking and attitudes anymore when comparing them to those valid for the present, or the past decades.
That's like saying that in a few months it'll be warmer than it is now or was in previous months. The America of 50 years ago is already vastly different than the America of today. Why should this trend cease?
Skybird
03-19-14, 05:30 PM
I claim the difference between status quo 1960 and 2010 was much much smaller than the difference will be between 2015 and 2050. Ethnic and cultural changes have not caused so drastic effects back then, than they will in the coming decades.
It is not about a trend per se only. It is about how it is extremely accelerating. the coming 40 years will cause much more and substantial change, than the past 40 years have done. And I mean factors, not fractions.
Whether that change will be all positive, remaisn to be seen, but I doubt it. It is eroding many of the classical American values, which were WASP and white values. And the whites/the WASPS, as somebody already mentioned above, numerically are in decline. Asians and South Americans have other value systems in their luggage. Political agendas of the local politicians will reflect that, if they want to win elections.
The linked material shows those shifts already. At the West coast, more and mnore Asians arrive, from thre south, more and more South Americans and Latin Americans move northwards. These days I have read that over 40% of the population in San Francisco bay area already has an Asian background. Nothing wrong in beign Asian, but it would be naive to assume that the culture and value systems linked to that would leave the classical (WASPish) American values and culture untouched. And that reflects in the changing policies of America, the changing attitudes towards having a strong state, more pacifistic attitude, more socialist nanny-around-the-clock-care, different social interaction patterns, etc etc.
AVGWarhawk
03-19-14, 06:33 PM
True. But im not saying it's the end of the world ala doomsday prepper. Only that I think something significant and bad is going to happen sometime in our lifetime that will cause a serious and fundamental shift in how we live our lives. The way our government is being ran, I think the most likely thing will happen is the financial system or the dollar itself collapses. Don't fool yourself, our economy is living on borrowed time. (http://youtu.be/jKpVlDSIz9o)
In that respect the fundamental shift is well underway. Society is vastly becoming two class. One of the two very dependent on government. As far as an industrial juggernaut, that ended somewhere at the end of the 80's. Of course the economy is not on it borrowed time...it is on purchased time. The Fed has been buying it each month in the billions. Soon the Fed will stop buying time. The economy will need to stand on its own. Problem is the USA does not make much of anything to sustain an economy.
Being from a pretty much mono-ethnic culture such as Germany it might be difficult for you to understand this but trust me Skybird, American whites are not all Anglo-Saxon (or Protestant) nor do WASPs represent "Classical American values". We're way too multicultural for that and those cultures are far less cohesive than they are in the regions they came from.
America is an immigrant nation. Our neighborhoods have undergone many ethnic makeovers throughout the years and they will continue to do so in the future. The idea that incoming immigrants will somehow bring the seeds of our destruction is either someones wishful thinking or rabble rousing.
Tribesman
03-19-14, 08:45 PM
Its interesting to see across all the age groups just how out of touch the Republican party seem to be on issues which they are making their core policies.
If they continue to push to the fore policies which most people don't agree with then they are definitely heading the way of the dodo.
Two good posts from August.
Skybird
03-19-14, 09:05 PM
Germany - mono-ethnic? Almost one in four has a migration background, every third child lives in a family where at least one parent has a migration background. ;) Ifd that is not enough, read the names list of the German football national team of the past couple of years. Sometimes people over here wondered if this really was national team, and not any international club team. :) Even some of the players with German-sounding names, have migrant roots.
the concept of the melting pot in the US has been coming under critical review since almost thirty years now, I think. I am by far not the first one doubting that it has molten all so well. Internal social conflicts and problems prove the opposite. It is a bit like the "American dream": an utopic Gral story that is meant to give motivation and to explain attraction that for many people however does not hold its promises.
Please note that may remarks on America and my remarks on the Easter Islands are two totally different contexts, the latter being a reply to AVGWarhawk, and even there I already separated the end of the world from the dramatic change in America. Don't throw it all together.
Tribesman
03-19-14, 09:18 PM
Germany - mono-ethnic? Almost one in four has a migration background, every third child lives in a family where at least one parent has a migration background. ;) Ifd that is not enough, read the names list of the German football national team of the past couple of years. Sometimes people over here wondered if this really was national team, and not any international club team. :) Even some of the players with German-sounding names, have migrant roots.
That reminds me of one of your posts.:hmmm:
Can you provide that link of yours again where apparently blacks and muslims are somehow responsible for ruining soccer?:rotfl2:
the concept of the melting pot in the US has been coming under critical review since almost thirty years now, I think.
Think again, make that more like 230 years.
Germany - mono-ethnic? Almost one in four has a migration background, every third child lives in a family where at least one parent has a migration background. ;) Ifd that is not enough, read the names list of the German football national team of the past couple of years. Sometimes people over here wondered if this really was national team, and not any international club team. :) Even some of the players with German-sounding names, have migrant roots
That just proves my point Sky. Almost one in four. Looked at the other way it means that over 75% of Germans have NO migration background. Here in the US we all have migration backgrounds, even the so called "Native" Americans.
As for professional sports teams it is an established practice to recruit talent from outside the country and so they make poor examples of a nations ethnic diversity.
the concept of the melting pot in the US has been coming under critical review since almost thirty years now, I think. I am by far not the first one doubting that it has molten all so well. Internal social conflicts and problems prove the opposite. It is a bit like the "American dream": an utopic Gral story that is meant to give motivation and to explain attraction that for many people however does not hold its promises.Well doubt all you want but I am a living example of the melting pot. Mom a first generation German immigrant married for 46 years to a Indiana farm boy settling in New England. I have first cousins in 2 countries and 8 US states from Montana to Texas to Florida. My wife is Italian and Scotch, my co-workers range from Polish to African to Hmong. Such diversity is the norm here so let's just say that the rumors of the Melting Pot's demise are greatly exaggerated to say the least.
Please note that may remarks on America and my remarks on the Easter Islands are two totally different contexts, the latter being a reply to AVGWarhawk, and even there I already separated the end of the world from the dramatic change in America. Don't throw it all together.So noted.
ReallyDedPoet
03-20-14, 07:16 PM
Well doubt all you want but I am a living example of the melting pot. Mom a first generation German immigrant married for 46 years to a Indiana farm boy settling in New England. I have first cousins in 2 countries and 8 US states from Montana to Texas. My wife is Italian and Scotch, my co-workers range from Polish to African to Hmong. Such diversity is the norm here so set's just say that the rumors of the Melting Pot's demise are greatly exaggerated to say the least.
:sign_yeah:
Sailor Steve
03-20-14, 08:24 PM
Well doubt all you want but I am a living example of the melting pot. Mom a first generation German immigrant married for 46 years to a Indiana farm boy settling in New England. I have first cousins in 2 countries and 8 US states from Montana to Texas to Florida. My wife is Italian and Scotch, my co-workers range from Polish to African to Hmong. Such diversity is the norm here so let's just say that the rumors of the Melting Pot's demise are greatly exaggerated to say the least.
My paternal line has been traced back to a man who emigrated here from Wales with his wife sometime before 1785. It goes back a long way, but still emigrated. My dad's mother's parents came here from Germany in the 1880s.
My late friend Rocky's grandfather came from Sicily. His dad was in Germany for World War II and ultimately came home with a German bride.
You're right. Even the people who brag about ancestors who came over on the Mayflower still have ancestors who came here from somewhere else. It's the people who talk about "us" and "them" who are the problem, at least in America.
Skybird
03-20-14, 08:33 PM
That just proves my point Sky. Almost one in four. Looked at the other way it means that over 75% of Germans have NO migration background. Here in the US we all have migration backgrounds, even the so called "Native" Americans.
And still, in the past, there were dominant subgroups sharing past cultural expereinces and roots: the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, the Dutch, the British... white Europeans. On the Westcoast, the Chinese. Later, the black slaves if one sees that as immigration for a moment and purpose of this tex, one of the strongest ethnic subgroiups after the whites, originally. In modern times: Latinos, and growing amounts of Asians in general, later came many from the Middle East.
Even from here, us non-Americans can see that all these different ethnic groups have not completely given up their roots, some of them stuck closer to their cultural roots than others. The Chinese were are said to be very pragmatic, showing their new American identity in public, but staying loyal to their Chinese heritage and identity in private. Result: local Chinatowns, a strong parallel subculture where even state authority for long time did not managed to break in: police etc.). As therer were also city districts serving as Little Italies. The unmissable note left by the French in New Orleans. Etc. Spenser was a wonderful series of the 80s, showing plenty of Boston.
Hey, haven't you just had St. Patricks' Day? Although this time not just in green, but also in rainbow colours (as if it were not only about Irish origina and Irish identity, but homosexual orientation... stupid).
As for professional sports teams it is an established practice to recruit talent from outside the country and so they make poor examples of a nations ethnic diversity.
Well doubt all you want but I am a living example of the melting pot. Mom a first generation German immigrant married for 46 years to a Indiana farm boy settling in New England. I have first cousins in 2 countries and 8 US states from Montana to Texas to Florida. My wife is Italian and Scotch, my co-workers range from Polish to African to Hmong. Such diversity is the norm here so let's just say that the rumors of the Melting Pot's demise are greatly exaggerated to say the least. Melting Pot metaphor meant that racial and ethnic differences would decline that much that major conflicts would disappear between the groups. That is obviously not the case. Social classes have dominant correlations to ethnic origin, racial violence and racism still is an unsolved problem. It got better over the past decades, but is far from being solved. Some things obviously have not that well molten at all. Not different to Germany, some ethnic groups arriving here and staying here, melt better into our society, than others. Some groups do even refuse to adapt at all, and instead demand the country and native population to adapt to them.
Its all not so prototypic and ideally functioning as you paint it, August. Much more grey and shadows in the general picture. For every dishwasher making it to millionaire, there were and are thousands and thousands who remain to be dishwashers.
And lets do not mistake migration for ethnicity, although I did that mistake myself in the earlier posting. Me, by my mother'S family I have Dutch and Southgerman genes, by my father's family I am Sudeten-German and a little Czech. Seen that way I am multi-ethnic. But I have no migration background. You can safely assume that while 1 in 4 in Germany has a migration background, mayn more than jst 25% have a multi-ethnic background. It will be even more soon, since already now, as written, every third child now has at least one parent with a migration background. Turkish and Islamic subcultures are quickly increasing in size and numbers, other migrant subgroups adapt better and "melt" into society better. Both in history and present, Germ,ans tend to have illusions about how pure their blood is, and how mono-ethnic they are. We are not, and have not been since very long time. Already the sometimes told story about Germans stemming from the Germanic tribes giving a spanking to the Roman legions, is a myth. Germans have little to do with those ethnic tribes, genetically and culturally.
And still, in the past, there were diominat subgroups sharing past cultural expereinces and roots: the Italians, the Irish, the Germans, thge Dutch, the British... white Europeans.
So now it's white Europeans instead of just White Anglo Saxon Protestants?
On the Westcoast, the Chinese. Later, the black slaves if one sees that as immigraiton for a moment, one of the strongest ethnic subgroiups after the whites, origoinally. In modern times: Latinos, and growing amopunts of Asiens in general, later many from the Middle East.So what? Are you really saying that non white people won't make just as good Americans as those of white European heritage?
Even from here us non-Americans can see that all these different ethnic groups have not completely given up their roots, some of them stuck cloer to their cultural roots than others. The Chinese were are said to be very pragmatic, showing their new American identity in public, but staying loyal to their Chinese heritage and identity in private. Result: local Chinatowns, a strong parallel subculture where even state authority for long time did not managed to break in: police etc.). As therer were also city districts serving as Little Italies. The unmissable note left by the French in New Orleans. Etc. Spenser was a wonderful series of the 80s, showing plenty of Boston.
Before Little Italy was Little Ireland and little Norway or little Poland before that. Harlem New York used to be Dutch farmland and now the Blacks who eventually inherited it are no longer even the majority in that part of Manhattan. The Chinese are no longer the majority in Boston's Chinatown either I believe. Things constantly change around here and that's the whole point. I'm not sure what an '80's TV show has to do with it.
Don't you remember that map showing migration between the states? That is the melting pot in action. Just remembe rthat communities aren't moving, individuals are.
Hey, haven't you just had St. Patricks' Day? Although this time not just in green, but also in rainbow colours (as if it were not only about Irish origina and Irish identity, but homosexual orientation... stupid).Not sure what point you're trying to make here but there won't be any rainbows marching in Boston's St. Patricks day parade this year and maybe never.
Melting Pot metaphor meant that racial and ethnic differences would decline that much that major conflicts would disappear between the groups. That is obviously not the case.Says who? You been reading Spiegel again? :) What major conflicts? FWIW racial and ethnic conflict is very rare here. It's hyped a lot in the media whenever it does happen but i'd compare it against of any other multi-cultural society for our ability to get along with each other just fine.
Its all not so prototypic and ideally functioning as you paint it, August. Much more grey and shadows in the general picture. For every dishwasher making it to millionaire, there were and are thousands and thousands who remain to be dishwashers.
Never said it was ideally functioning, just that it works pretty well and has worked for us for going on three centuries in spite of constant prognostications of doom made by Europeans such as yourself.
Well said August. Particularly the part about the problem being people pointing at a problem that for the majority does not exist.
Australia is much the same in terms of migration bases and has shown that the doomsayers predicted collapse of our society after the removal of the White Australia Policy have been unfounded. Have we and do we have racial tensions? Yes we do. But no more than the odd minor flare up in the scheme of things.
Are we an ideally functioning utopian society? No but I don't see anyone else living in one either.
Ducimus
03-21-14, 04:59 AM
My paternal line has been traced back to a man who emigrated here from Wales with his wife sometime before 1785. It goes back a long way, but still emigrated. My dad's mother's parents came here from Germany in the 1880s.
My late friend Rocky's grandfather came from Sicily. His dad was in Germany for World War II and ultimately came home with a German bride.
You're right. Even the people who brag about ancestors who came over on the Mayflower still have ancestors who came here from somewhere else. It's the people who talk about "us" and "them" who are the problem, at least in America.
On the subject of melting pot:
My father is Chinese. My mother was German who was also reported to have, (but no one ever confirmed it) some Cherokee in her. My wife is Norwegian and English. My daughter is all of the above. :O::haha:
Skybird
03-21-14, 07:28 AM
So now it's white Europeans instead of just White Anglo Saxon Protestants?
WASPS were not just any group amongst white Europeans going to America, but a dominant one. ;)
So what? Are you really saying that non white people won't make just as good Americans as those of white European heritage? Dont cinbstruct stuff I neitehr said nor meant. I was pointing out that immigration not automatically means huge foeign communities all melt into their new environment, but in parts adapt - but in parts maintain strong original identity and "institutionliasing" these by foprming a rwefugium where they stickl to old traditions and habits. Chinatowns. Little Italies. I sometimes takes generations and generations to have these things fading in importance for the immigrant subgroup in question.
And if you would ask several black people, i wonder if they really all would agree to any statement saying that backs and whites all have molten together and form just one cohesive community where everyone is equal. Statistics prove the opposite.
I'm not sure what an '80's TV show has to do with it.[quote]
The face of a city. City design. archiutecture. Mood and atrmosphere. Nobody would ever mistake New York with a european city, or Los Angeles. That is US metropoles in extremis.
[quote]Not sure what point you're trying to make here but there won't be any rainbows marching in Boston's St. Patricks day parade this year and maybe never. Several mayor refused to participate in activities over gay demands being initially rejected to have festivities done not in traditional Irish green, but rainbow colours. Also, several beer producers refused to deliver beer if St. Patricks Day continues to be celebrated in Irish Green only. Reported in German, English and US media. ;)
Says who? You been reading Spiegel again? :) What major conflicts? FWIW racial and ethnic conflict is very rare here. It's hyped a lot in the media whenever it does happen but i'd compare it against of any other multi-cultural society for our ability to get along with each other just fine. Again, I trust statistics more to describe general trends of huge populations, because that is what statistics do. Individual snapshot experiences in a given moment at one place, are this: an individual experience that does not reflect on a population, but an individual case. Social statistics speak a clear language there about links between ethnic origin, and social class, life expectancy, living and education conditions, chances for social raise, crime, illness, even eating habits. Many of these factors feedback on some of the others.
We have been there before. I'm certain that again you keep your eyes shut and take the theoretic ideal as the practical reality.
BTW, you maybe like to learn that Spiegel has cut down its online format, and its international edition already suffers a huge loss in articles done in English. Much smaller chances to get annoyed by them.
Never said it was ideally functioning, just that it works pretty well and has worked for us for going on three centuries in spite of constant prognostications of doom made by Europeans such as yourself.Oh please.
And just curious, have you anything to say on the findings in that study that this thread originally has been about? Preferrably something better than just saying that it all is bull only and you do not believe it anyway?
Lies, damn lies and statistics. 73% of statistics are fabricated or distorted to present a particular view point.
WASPS were not just any group amongst white Europeans going to America, but a dominant one. ;)
"A" (as opposed to "The") being the operative word in that statement. In any case it's still incorrect (not to mention racist) to lump all white people, or anyone else for that matter, together under one subsets description.
Dont cinbstruct stuff I neitehr said nor meant. I was pointing out that immigration not automatically means huge foeign communities all melt into their new environment, but in parts adapt - but in parts maintain strong original identity and "institutionliasing" these by foprming a rwefugium where they stickl to old traditions and habits. Chinatowns. Little Italies. I sometimes takes generations and generations to have these things fading in importance for the immigrant subgroup in question.Naw one generation, maybe two at most Skybird and they're true blue Americans. The children born here rarely even speak the language of the country their parents came from let alone hold 100% to their traditions. Intermarriage with other cultures is the norm here not the exception. What few ethnic enclaves do exist here are simply not comparable to the way you describe ethnic enclaves in Germany. Maybe that's because ours are in a real multi-ethnic country and form links with many other cultures on a daily basis whereas yours have to deal with a mono-culture that makes up over 75% of the population.
And if you would ask several black people, i wonder if they really all would agree to any statement saying that backs and whites all have molten together and form just one cohesive community where everyone is equal. Statistics prove the opposite.That's a false premise. You''ll never get "all" of a group to agree on anything, especially when you speak in such absolute terms.
How many black people did you actually talk to today? I talked to several of them. How many ethnicity's do you deal with on a daily basis Skybird? One, two maybe? I deal with dozens, every day, as do the great majority of my fellow countrymen and we manage to do it with hardly any newsworthy drama at all. Can you understand why your statistics mean bupkiss compared to that?
Several mayor refused to participate in activities over gay demands being initially rejected to have festivities done not in traditional Irish green, but rainbow colours. Also, several beer producers refused to deliver beer if St. Patricks Day continues to be celebrated in Irish Green only. Reported in German, English and US media. ;)
Oh please indeed. What beer producers, what cities? Go ahead and name them then tell us how much anyone cared. Really man the only colors germane to St. Patricks day celebrations are Green and Beer. Celebrating gay rights in a St. Patricks day parade makes about as much sense as having Santa Claus and the Easter bunny march on the 4th of July and that's why the idea doesn't make much headway and probably never will either.
We have been there before. I'm certain that again you keep your eyes shut and take the theoretic ideal as the practical reality. Well unlike you I actually see that practical reality every day with my own eyes from the moment I get up in the morning to the moment I fall asleep at night. My information is not just delivered to me in cherry picked anecdotes trimmed, processed and packaged by those with their own agendas.
The problem with relying upon such sources as you do is that it causes you to assign arbitrary values to both the important and the trivial. You have no independent way to judge for yourself their actual significance to practical reality.
What astounds me is that you never accept the testimony of those who are actually in a position to know what the reality really is. You dismiss their first hand experience and demand that they use the same myopic sources to prove their point to you. Sorry that's just madness.
Oh please.Oh please nothing. Foreigners, mostly Europeans being as they are the nosiest busybodies on the planet, have been making those claims since our founding. None of you have been right yet so why should I believe you now?
And just curious, have you anything to say on the findings in that study that this thread originally has been about? Preferrably something better than just saying that it all is bull only and you do not believe it anyway?I'm ambivalent about it.
I do question the significance of a single survey conducted over just a two month period, during the height of a presidential election no less when everyone's passions are inflamed, that involves only a tiny subset of the target group in question.
Nor does this survey recognize the rather obvious fact that generations always temper, change and adjust their viewpoints about the world as time goes by and they start thinking like parents and adults instead of footloose kids.
After all "anti-establishment" was the watch word of my generation when we were young but within 20 years we became the establishment we had hated. So too will the Millennials and so too will their kids and grandkids and America will still be just as awesome as it ever was.
On the subject of melting pot:
My father is Chinese. My mother was German who was also reported to have, (but no one ever confirmed it) some Cherokee in her. My wife is Norwegian and English. My daughter is all of the above. :O::haha:
Sorry you just don't exist in Skybirds world. He has statistics you know. :03: :)
August gets me vote in this debate. Good argument. The thread starter should seek professional help imo.
Tribesman
03-22-14, 04:20 AM
August gets me vote in this debate. Good argument. The thread starter should seek professional help imo.
That's a personal attack, you are ridiculing the views someone has presented, that is not allowed apparently:03:
I think you are correct though.
The OP introduces a piece to support his much repeated and much anticipated (by him)doomsday predictions.
The piece doesn't really support his views, yet he still insists that they do.
People introduce reality, reality doesn't support his views, yet he still insists it does.
He introduces other sources which also don't really support his views, yet he still insists they do.
It does appear that he is trying to make facts fit his views rather than have his views fit facts.
A good example of a source of this would be the Easter bunny angle he again introduced, the Diamond geezer he likes does the same thing over that island, however he always skirts two of the major factors in the decline, but he has to skip those two major factors because the facts and reality don't mesh with the pre conceived conclusion he wants to draw from the example.
Tribesman
03-22-14, 04:38 AM
Quote:
Several mayor refused to participate in activities over gay demands being initially rejected to have festivities done not in traditional Irish green, but rainbow colours. Also, several beer producers refused to deliver beer if St. Patricks Day continues to be celebrated in Irish Green only. Reported in German, English and US media. ;)
Oh please indeed. What beer producers, what cities? Go ahead and name them then tell us how much anyone cared. Really man the only colors germane to St. Patricks day celebrations are Green and Beer. Celebrating gay rights in a St. Patricks day parade makes about as much sense as having Santa Claus and the Easter bunny march on the 4th of July and that's why the idea doesn't make much headway and probably never will either.
He is almost kinda correct sort of there, however he manages to get facts completely mangled.
No one refused to deliver beer, one multinational said it wasn't doing its sponsorship deal.
A few politicians made a stand because there are probably more votes to be had among the general population than from a few die hards in the ancient order of Hibernians.
And anyway rainbows have that little pot of gold at the end, its traditional Irish legend. In advertising you must be familiar with that little oirishman dressed in green with his rainbow and pot of lucky charms:rotfl2:
What strikes me as really funny about his take on that is his repeated complaints about gay rights protesters and their participation in parades.
It seems as if he is completely reversing his firmly held views to fit his agenda...yet again.:yep:
http://blog.iwannagothere.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Leprechauns1.gif
There's nothing gay about getting a shillelagh round yer ears to be sure!
Sailor Steve
03-22-14, 11:13 AM
That's a personal attack, you are ridiculing the views someone has presented, that is not allowed apparently:03:
No, a personal attack would have been something along the lines of "same old Skybull".
On the other hand subtle digs at the people tasked with keeping someone like you in line is another matter entirely.
Onkel Neal
03-22-14, 10:07 PM
That's a personal attack, you are ridiculing the views someone has presented, that is not allowed apparently:03:
Not "apparently". :D
I have said this 100 times, I'll say it once more. Feel free to discuss, debate, debunk each other's opinions and views. Agree or disdagree, back your views up with tact and logic. Emotion and hyperbole is fine. But stop short of abusing other members, ridiculing them (whether overtly or subtly), and attacking them.
How are we going to keep a civil forum if people who cannot show restraint are allowed to bully others? Let's keep it classy.
Onkel Neal
03-22-14, 10:12 PM
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2014/03/2014-03-07_generations-report-version-for-web.pdf
Take my word for it, if global civilization's structures and patterns survive (which I do not take for granted), in 50 years you will not recognise American mainstream thinking and attitudes anymore when comparing them to those valid for the present, or the past decades. It's not the first time I point at this, isn't it. The huge shift towards a socialist basic order and a rise in faith in a strong state is obvious since many years now. The massive ethnic changes in the national population, especially in critical hotspot regions and metropoles, take place since longer time now. And it will force those parts of the more conservative, white population to adapt to the changing demands coming from these changes, else they will not be able to hold out themselves.
Before the end of this century I predict both Europe and America will either have turned into autocratic dictatorships, or will have collapsed completely.
Just to comment on the topic, I agree with you. I try not to feel alarmist, but I cannot shake the feeling that America is rapidly shifting away from the rugged individualism/make your own future place it was for the last 200 years. I make that statement based on interacting with thousands of people in my last few jobs as a teacher, in retail and in hospitality. People just don't want to earn their way anymore, they want help for everything, because "it's not their fault".
Ahem, ok, I'll get back to keeping those young punks off my lawn.:ping:
Tribesman
03-23-14, 03:16 AM
Not "apparently". :D
I have said this 100 times, I'll say it once more. Feel free to discuss, debate, debunk each other's opinions and views. Agree or disdagree, back your views up with tact and logic. Emotion and hyperbole is fine. But stop short of abusing other members, ridiculing them (whether overtly or subtly), and attacking them.
How are we going to keep a civil forum if people who cannot show restraint are allowed to bully others? Let's keep it classy.
Perfect example.
According to certain persons who shall remain nameless, adding :D to a post makes it an in insult, so does :doh: as does :haha:
It certainly appears that there are severe inconsistancies in moderation from certain quarters.
Now to the phrase in question.
The implication is clear, "seek professional help" written in response to the content of someones line of argument implies that the person in question has mental issues and needs a shrink doesn't it.
Is there any other implication which could be drawn from it?
If not then it is pretty clear cut.
Is that ridicule subtle or overt in your opinion?
Tribesman
03-23-14, 03:28 AM
Just to comment on the topic, I agree with you. I try not to feel alarmist, but I cannot shake the feeling that America is rapidly shifting away from the rugged individualism/make your own future place it was for the last 200 years. I make that statement based on interacting with thousands of people in my last few jobs as a teacher, in retail and in hospitality. People just don't want to earn their way anymore, they want help for everything, because "it's not their fault".
Ahem, ok, I'll get back to keeping those young punks off my lawn.:ping:
Is it though?
It sounds remarkably like something from the 1970s1960s 1950s,30s 20s...
Sounds 19th century too and 18th 17th 16th 15th....
It even sounds roman and greek to take it back further.
So is the feeling you have firmly grounded in reality or is it rather a matter of personal perception?
Skybird
03-23-14, 05:27 AM
Just to comment on the topic, I agree with you. I try not to feel alarmist, but I cannot shake the feeling that America is rapidly shifting away from the rugged individualism/make your own future place it was for the last 200 years. I make that statement based on interacting with thousands of people in my last few jobs as a teacher, in retail and in hospitality. People just don't want to earn their way anymore, they want help for everything, because "it's not their fault".
Ahem, ok, I'll get back to keeping those young punks off my lawn.:ping:
All in all, that sums up what it is about. A bit more details to it, but in general that's it. The linked publication also is not the first study coming to these findings and elections dates approaching have little to do its publication - they do it frequently. I think I linked to earlier studies like this repeatedly over the past years.
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files...on-for-web.pdf (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2014/03/2014-03-07_generations-report-version-for-web.pdf)
"Take my word for it, if global civilization's structures and patterns survive (which I do not take for granted), in 50 years you will not recognise American mainstream thinking and attitudes anymore when comparing them to those valid for the present, or the past decades. It's not the first time I point at this, isn't it. The huge shift towards a socialist basic order and a rise in faith in a strong state is obvious since many years now. The massive ethnic changes in the national population, especially in critical hotspot regions and metropoles, take place since longer time now. And it will force those parts of the more conservative, white population to adapt to the changing demands coming from these changes, else they will not be able to hold out themselves.
Before the end of this century I predict both Europe and America will either have turned into autocratic dictatorships"
My point is, if you start a thread with a 50 pages pdf, then you should at least sum it up. At the end of those 50 pages thesises there is usually a summary of the points the author wants to make. That would be a good start. Is this an academic forum? Now, if you do your own summary, then at least don't sound like a ****ing idiot, who knew it all better already. This attitude will get you nowhere. Even if you have a valid point, people are unwilling to listen to you. Is this that hard to understand?
On the topic: Under Reagan, Neo-libreralism was brought to Europe via Thatcher (Uk) and Kohl (Germany). See the consequences. It will take some decades to deal with the "downs" of that policy. Right now, the pendulum swings back. Right now, we see the Social-Democratisation of the US. Europe has some influennce on the US way of thinking. That is not just Obamas fault. Even your US Supreme Court judges spend some study time at Europe universities and take a look on what is going on there and get influenced, same as when European judges study the US, which they do. That is called "Globilisation", as i have been told.
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