You've hit bottom. Now what?

[barker262]

Had this happen in one of my first attempts at the sim. Water depth was about 30m and I had set 50 m. When I hit I went into damage control, and was busy handling that, but the compartments kept getting damaged, repair, damaged again. Everytime I gave a speed, fast or slow (even all stop), damage would re-occur. Is there a way off the deck like in Das Boot?

[Mittelwaechter]

Don't order a speed setting. Your hull will scratch the rocky seabed and take damage again.

Order periscope depth, without starting your engines. Your LI will blow balast and your U-Boot will rise.

[barker262]

Cheers for that. Nice a simple too.:sunny:

[GJO]

It is a pity that we don't have a mod to limit low speed bottoming or collision damage. In my view the game makes it far too severe. In real life, I often hit the bottom with my boat, usually at low speed, and have not suffered damage as a consequence.

[OldWulf85]

Meh, in WW2 they put the boat on the ground, so the enemy can't find them with ASDIC, in SH the boat is damaged :dead:

[RConch]

Why do you not use:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=957

Works just fine on GWX Gold.

[barker262]

@ Rconch - Yes I know what you mean with 'Das Boot' moments. It was even worse for me at the time with the das boot crew sounds for damage. Hearing them all running around the boat trying to repair it and me knowing that it was futile. I felt like letting them rig for silent running and return to their bunks, no use dying tired.

[GJO]

Why do you not use:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=957

Works just fine on GWX Gold.

Thanks for that, I will have to give it a try . . .

[UKönig]

This has happened to me on occasion, and on pretty much each one, I was directly responsible for the collision.
After reading books and watching films, building models and playing subsims, I learned what the "rudder heel" and "keel box" were for...
I did try to set down exactly on the bottom. I think it would only allow me 2 meters to go. Even to change depth using compressed air was not sinking the sub any lower. Try as I might, I could not set the boat down on the keel box and just sit there, waiting for my "friends" up above to go away...

[BigWalleye]

Couple of points:

If the bottom is nice, soft, flat mud, an RL sub would give a nice, clear ASDIC return. Which is OK, because in SH3, sitting on the bottom does nothing to lower your chances of detection anyway. It always works in the movies, and it sometimes worked RL, but it doesn't work in SH3.

Use the depth finder to keep track of where the bottom is. The faster you are going, horizontally and vertically, the harder you are going to hit and the more damage your boat will get.

When you hit bottom, stop! Rise the boat a bit, and go ahead slowly. Fix the damage if you can. And go on with your life. Rarely does hitting bottom cause major, irreparable damage. Most annoying part is that it breaks the glass on some of the gauges and your lazy crew doesn't fix them for the rest of the cruise.

Some time ago, I found myself having serious problems with CTDs when I tried to load a saved game. The causes were multiple, most of them the result of poor software hygiene. But in the course of a six-week effort to fix the CTDs, I found that the Seabed Repair mod was one of a couple I had to remove. Not saying it is inherently flawed - It may have been some interaction unique to my setup. Others obviously use it successfully. YMMV. (BTW, the CTDs were not in any way related to the in-game situation when I saved the game.)

[scott_c2911]

In that situation I would order all stop followed by blow ballast. If you are bottoming out due to an escorts presence then follow up quickly with a shallow depth setting otherwise you will be quickly put back to where you started but dead! You are best in sh3 to run deep and slow to evade escorts. Increase to flank if charges are dropped within a 100m radius. Movement is life in this sim. Ive tried bottoming out after attacking a convoy in 50m water (North Sea early war) and was quickly destroyed. Whether its rl or not ive learnt to play the game not emulate real tactics

[Aktungbby]

In that situation I would order all stop followed by blow ballast. If you are bottoming out due to an escorts presence then follow up quickly with a shallow depth setting otherwise you will be quickly put back to where you started but dead! You are best in sh3 to run deep and slow to evade escorts. Increase to flank if charges are dropped within a 100m radius. Movement is life in this sim. Ive tried bottoming out after attacking a convoy in 50m water (North Sea early war) and was quickly destroyed. Whether its rl or not ive learnt to play the game not emulate real tactics

Actually 'LYING DOGGO' -((slang (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary#slang)) To lie still (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/still) and quiet (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/quiet) in order to avoid detection (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/detection))- on the bottom was employed by a uboat in the Mediterranean; I do not recall which book I read that in-and acquired the use of the expression. It also doesn't work in the game for me either.:hmmm:

[Paulebaer1979]

If the bottom is nice, soft, flat mud, an RL sub would give a nice, clear ASDIC return. Which is OK, because in SH3, sitting on the bottom does nothing to lower your chances of detection anyway. It always works in the movies, and it sometimes worked RL, but it doesn't work in SH3.

Depending on the different layers in the water (very cold and very high salinity) the noise from ASDIC could be redirected directly to the bottom and then they destroyers would not be able to detect anything. But in this case there is no reason to go to the bottom.

There could be a surface duct, too. (Needs low waves and a lot of sunshine) All noise below this layer will be redirected to the bottom and all noise above this layer would bouncing between the layer and the surface - this can effect enorm ranges of detection for any sonar user inside the duct.

It´s a pitty, that in SH3 those effects aren´t simulated. But it´s complicated. I had to read and learn a lot of stuff about this in my second training in the navy. 3 month only hydroacoustics, noise detection and oceanography.

[Jimbuna]

Why do you not use:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=957

Works just fine on GWX Gold.

I've never used this mod but the detail states 'GWX 2.1 ONLY' so it works with Gold?

[BigWalleye]

Depending on the different layers in the water (very cold and very high salinity) the noise from ASDIC could be redirected directly to the bottom and then they destroyers would not be able to detect anything. But in this case there is no reason to go to the bottom.

There could be a surface duct, too. (Needs low waves and a lot of sunshine) All noise below this layer will be redirected to the bottom and all noise above this layer would bouncing between the layer and the surface - this can effect enorm ranges of detection for any sonar user inside the duct.

It´s a pitty, that in SH3 those effects aren´t simulated. But it´s complicated. I had to read and learn a lot of stuff about this in my second training in the navy. 3 month only hydroacoustics, noise detection and oceanography.

There is a Shallow Water ASDIC Mod in Stiebler4B_V16B1_Revised patcher. It simulates some of the conditions you mentioned in a more generic way. Would like to know your evaluation of it.

I've never used this mod but the detail states 'GWX 2.1 ONLY' so it works with Gold?

Jim, I think it means it. I found it was a contributor to my savegame corruption issue. It may work with some mod combinations and not play nice with others. I didn't do a thorough investigation. But it's a good mod otherwise, and could be worth the time to check it out. May work for you.

[Jimbuna]

Jim, I think it means it. I found it was a contributor to my savegame corruption issue. It may work with some mod combinations and not play nice with others. I didn't do a thorough investigation. But it's a good mod otherwise, and could be worth the time to check it out. May work for you.

TBH it's not a mod that ever interested me...the main reason for the sickener being the fact that radar and sonar can see through land masses/islands was enough for me to discount it.

I may check it out one day though.

[BigWalleye]

TBH it's not a mod that ever interested me...the main reason for the sickener being the fact that radar and sonar can see through land masses/islands was enough for me to discount it.

I may check it out one day though.

Are you talking about the Seabed Repair Mod? I had no idea it had any effect on sensors. I thought it was all related to avoiding damage when bottoming the boat.:huh:

[Jimbuna]

Are you talking about the Seabed Repair Mod? I had no idea it had any effect on sensors. I thought it was all related to avoiding damage when bottoming the boat.:huh:

Oh it is as far as I'm aware but the game sensors were fubar'd from day one and that had a bearing on how I viewed the damage reactions to the boat when supposedly resting motionless on the bottom as well.

[RConch]

I do not use a great mod soup when I play so the mod works just fine with GWX 3.

[Paulebaer1979]

There is a Shallow Water ASDIC Mod in Stiebler4B_V16B1_Revised patcher. It simulates some of the conditions you mentioned in a more generic way. Would like to know your evaluation of it.

I tried it in sommer 2013. But it´s not realistic.

In real life the sun warms the water surface (in hot summer days down to 20-25m) ---> we have a surface duct between 0 and 20/25 m with extended range for detection. Below we have normal ranges if the sonar equipment is there. With surface sonar we have no chance to get an echo from a target deeper the layer - but the sub below layer can detect the active sonar and attack the carrier of the sonar easily.

When it´s cold (autumn and winter). The noise speed ("Schallgeschwindigkeit") gets slower with the depth. So any noise will go down. That causes problems for sub hunters because they are not able to get echos from deep diving subs. (Deep can be less than 20m in extrem situations!)

What i miss in SH3 is a realistik simulation of weather:
- different weather in different areas
- in summer up to month of shining sun and warm weather with low wind speeds at sea (and short periods of raining between)
- changing wind speed and direction near land as in reality
- sun has effet on water temperatur (depending on wind speed and weave high) and causes layers
- different temps of the water depending on seasons and sun times and areas (gulf stream, etc.)
- and so on ...

[BigWalleye]

Paulebaer1979, thanks for giving us the benefit of your experience. Concise and informative. Many factors that are not, and probably never will be, factored into a subsim game. It is a shame, but understandable, that your RL experience gets in the way of enjoying the subsim games. I sometimes wonder what an RL WW2 sub skipper would have thought of these games. (I have a cousin who's a cop. He can' t watch cop shows, even the "reality" ones like "Cops". Says it's all just too wrong.)

[maillemaker]

I find it amazing that it's so hard to detect something the size of a submarine less than 1000 feet away from you.

Steve

[Paulebaer1979]

Thanks for your words guys.

Yes it´s very difficult to simulate the real world in a game. Even if the industry is able to do it they won´t do it because about 75% of the users aren´t able to enjoy this. How many guys enjoied the education in hydroacoustic, oceongraphy and noise detecting ("Geräuscherkennung") as i did? Producing a simulation for those guys would be very expensive and the guys wihtout that kind of special knowledge won´t give a good review because they are overchallenged with the game.

In real live a modern antisubmarinefregate isn´t able to detect a 206a, 212 or kilo class sub at a range of 1000m in bad conditions. In very good conditions they could detect a sub at 15000m - but their active sonar impuls is strong enough for three times the distance (full range to target and back as weak echo) and the subs are able to detect it. So they would either attack with wireguided heavyweight torpedo or move away. The danger for subs today are helicopter with dipping sonar. They are able to find a sub without any warning. And for this cause we have IDAS. Laser guided anti helicopter missiles - up to 16 in one torpedotube. Nice small bastards :arrgh!:

Btw. an old 206 sub was able to get inside an aircraft carrier group - they surfaced at a distance of 2000m starbord in front of the carrier. Modern subs are quiter, faster and maneuverable. One torpedo and a big carrier is unable to move with own power and needs a big tug - a modern sub has min 12 torps inside.:arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

Btw. an old 206 sub was able to get inside an aircraft carrier group - they surfaced at a distance of 2000m starbord in front of the carrier. Modern subs are quiter, faster and maneuverable. One torpedo and a big carrier is unable to move with own power and needs a big tug - a modern sub has min 12 torps inside.:arrgh!:

That would have been U-33 which IIRC was a 212A Class.

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abendblatt.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausla nd%2Farticle483581%2FDas-Zielfoto-das-einen-US-Admiral-wuetend-machte.html&edit-text=

The Royal Navy S and T Class (unable to locate links atm), Australian, Canadian and Dutch amongst others can boast similarly.

A few links:

In late May 2000, Waller became the first Australian submarine to operate as a fully integrated component of a United States Navy carrier battle group during wargames. Waller’s role was to search for and engage opposing submarines hunting the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, a role in which she performed better than expected. A few days later, as part of the RIMPAC 2000 exercise, Waller was assigned to act as an 'enemy' submarine, and was reported to have successfully engaged two USN nuclear submarines before coming into attacking range of Abraham Lincoln.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Waller_(SSG_75)

http://defence.pk/threads/dutch-submarine-sinks-half-of-us-navy-ctf-in-1990-and-more.142292/

[Paulebaer1979]

Btw. an old 206 sub was able to get inside an aircraft carrier group - they surfaced at a distance of 2000m starbord in front of the carrier. Modern subs are quiter, faster and maneuverable. One torpedo and a big carrier is unable to move with own power and needs a big tug - a modern sub has min 12 torps inside.:arrgh!:
That would have been U-33 which IIRC was a 212A Class.

No. It was either U24 or U18 around 1998/1999. I only was able to enjoy the pictures from this situation. They are on the walls from AZU with simulator for operation center and every time a guy from US-Navy or similar is inside the pictures are changed in others - less embarrassing for the USA:arrgh!:

The 206a were able to detect a typical small container ship at ranges from 60nm and each other only below 10000m (passive). 212 can detect typical container ships at 90nm and greater - each other only at less then 100m (not at silence running - if silence running less then 40m).
Nobody finds this subs well. (Niemand findet unsere Boote gut.):har:

[Jimbuna]

I'm certainly happy to go by your memory but it leaves a little to be desired of the German article.

Near the top it certainly makes reference to U-24 also.

[Paulebaer1979]

U33 was in USA a couple of month ago, right. They did exercises with US-Navy, too. (And simulated sunk the carrier:arrgh!:) But the pictures of US-aircraftcarrier inside reticle from attack periscope i have seen in AZU were taken with 206 sub - U24 i guess.

[Jimbuna]

Yeah, whatever....I'm a tad annoyed I can't find the Ryal Navy photos :/\\!!

[GJO]

I am not sure if German boats used the same tactics but I am currently reading Sea Wolves: The Extraordinary Story of Britain's WW2 Submarines by Tim Clayton where there are many references to British S and T class boats deliberately sitting on the bottom (for various reasons) whilst on patrol. Although it isn't yet clear to me if this helped to avoid detection, it is clear that it enabled most of the machinery to be shut down to save the batteries and give the crew a chance to carry out repairs or take a rest.

ETA: This book is still available from Amazon at a discounted price - the book is worth a read.

[Sailor Steve]

In 1941 S-38 escaped Japanese destroyers in Lingayen Gulf by lying on the bottom - three separate times. Shielded against the background of the bottom the submarine was undetected at a distance of less than 200 feet.

My own experience: While on maneuvers in 1970 my old WW2 destroyer USS Brinkley Bass (DD-887) twice conducted a practice engagement with an Australian submarine. Though we had been upgraded with the latest equipment for the time, we still lost badly both times.

[BigWalleye]

In 1941 S-38 escaped Japanese destroyers in Lingayen Gulf by lying on the bottom - three separate times. Shielded against the background of the bottom the submarine was undetected at a distance of less than 200 feet.

My own experience: While on maneuvers in 1970 my old WW2 destroyer USS Brinkley Bass (DD-887) twice conducted a practice engagement with an Australian submarine. Though we had been upgraded with the latest equipment for the time, we still lost badly both times.

Unfortunately, the devs didn't care. :)

And AFAIK, there is no mod that provides sensor attenuation for a sub on the bottom. Of course, you can shut off the electric motors, which should reduce your signature in-game. But against ASDIC, no help.

BTW, "You've hit bottom. Now what?" Is there a 12-step program for sibsim addicts?

[Paulebaer1979]

Of course, you can shut off the electric motors, which should reduce your signature in-game. But against ASDIC, no help.
That´s right.:salute: Active sonar shows an echo. If size and depth is realistic the crew knows where the sub is.

[Leitender]

As allied escorts didn´t only use sonars actively, but also as passive hydrophones, what is simulated by the game very well, it is in fact an advantage to lay on the bottom of the sea, because the listening range of the surface units is much wider than their active listening abilities.

There is also a mighty attenuator against being heard: silent running. By ordering this, the range of being recognized by enemy sensors is strongly reduced. If you order silent running and reduce your speed e.g. to less than 150 revolves, you won´t be disvovered at all.


Order periscope depth, without starting your engines. Your LI will blow balast and your U-Boot will rise.

Hi Mittelwächter,

really glad to see you around here. I remember our discussion about compressed air in the UBI Forum then. In the meantime I found out interesting news and will publish them soon.

E.g. ordering periscope depth will not lead to compressed air consumption at all, the diving cells are emptied by simulated pumps. Only if you use "E" for blowing out the tanks, CA will be used in a considerable amount. If you blow out the tanks with "Double E", they will be emptied continuously until you reach the surface. But this is a hardly controllable manoeuvre.

Greetings

[ming]

Dont post much but I am curious about these responses myself since some of my most memorable times in SH3 have come in just this situation. Once I waited them out and the DDs, who didnt seem to be able to detect me, eventually moved away on their own. I repaired, surfaced and breathed again with a bit of a grin on my face. But this happened to me the other day and the DDs continued to DC me until I was finished...and it didnt take long either. Course, I was an idiot trying to sneak through the channel anyway. Depth may have a large impact on this. Went down in about 45-50 meters of water...first time was well over a hundred and close to the boats limit if I remember correctly.