Invincible destroyer?

[Shkval]

4 cuties hit and she still floats? C'mon that's impossible!!!

[Sniper297]

The cutie was originally an air dropped anti submarine torpedo. Since it only needed to blow a small hole in the pressure hull for a kill, the cutie only had a 90 to 95 pound warhead. Hitting the screws of a destroyer would disable it but not sink it. By contrast the Mark 14 had a 600 pound warhead, so four cuties would be the equivalent of a little over half the explosive power of one Mark 14.

[Shkval]

Let me correct myself, four hits in the hull, not screws, keel was 3 m, destroyer(s) type was Hatsano - something, 1600-ish tonnes... I set them to 2.5 m depth, contact-magnetic, also there was no 3D damage at all! Is this some bug?
They appeared out of nowhere, exactly in my 180 while I was submerged, after the aircraft radar alert, no aircraft spotted visually, because I crash-dived like a stone, (also I was not spotted by it, because there was no flight-over).
My procedure with aircraft's is to stay 3 hours submerged, then go to PD for visual and radar check, and there they were, spotted my periscope at approximately 9 Km (IMPOSSIBLE!), immediately started to zigzagging and blinking their signal lights.

I tried to evade them, but they KNEW EXACTLY where I am all the time, after an hour or so of depth charges... and almost every trick on my side to get away... I decided to attack, I had 3 Mark 17 and 4 cuties, I hit the first one with Mark 17 in a more or less a lucky shot... I mistaken the tube, it was my intention to fire cutie :oops:... but in the heat of the moment you make mistakes :oops:...

It really struggled to sink... also there was no 3D damage on it...

Then, I was thinking, now it's going to be easier... YOU ARE MINE M..........R!

After the series of diving and climbing to PD I hit the second one with four cuties - nothing! It didn't even listed to a side, it just kept on pinging and circling and dropping DC's like nothing is happening! Usually one or two are enough... if you damage them enough they will run away... but this one was made of titanium and carbon nano-tubes!

That really pissed me off, and it was two in the morning so I just exited the game in fury!!

I sad it once in my older posts, I will say it again, this game cheats big time!

[ETR3(SS)]

1. 3D damage is not an indicator of real damage, it's just eye candy. Ever notice that nice hole in your boat that doesn't send water pouring through it every time you submerge?

2. Sounds like you're playing TMO and that kind of behavior is par for the course.

[Shkval]

Yeah... it is TMO... so what are they? Battle ships in disguise?

[ETR3(SS)]

Pretty much lol. There is a TMO lite(?) with a scaled down AI around here somewhere though.

[HertogJan]

I've had weird things happen a few times, the 'no holes showing' isn't a bug in that the damage is done just not shown.

I can only think of one possibility as to how the DD's got to where they are without you knowing... Your crew could not hear them. There's a blind spot (same as with destroyers) of 40* or so behind the sub in which your crew can't hear anything.
It might be that when you got a air radar contact the DD's were already behind you without the crew noticing them visually.
Unfortunately even when it’s obvious there are ships in sight like the smoke coming from the funnel, which can be seen by you as far as 10Nm in clear conditions but the crew can’t. (They can’t even see them at 5Nm).

When you encounter elite crews they tend to be a very big pain in the .....
The only way to outsmart them is to learn their attack pattern and end runs and finding out which DD is listening and not attacking. Once you know each DD’s pattern you can start to plot an escape (this can take some time because it will only work in favorable conditions).

Not being able to get rid of the DD’s could be a TC issue (if you use it that is).
Some say they encountered this phenomenon and others say they never did, I’ve had it happen a few times and as a rule never go over 8xTC when the DD’s are looking for or attacking me.
As a side note if you don’t already have it and if you want to be able to use the depth charges to your advantage you should install TDW DC Water Disturbance Mod, this Mod disables the possibility of the AI to be able to hear you when they go off, which is realistic.

Can’t say anything about cuties never had the pleasure and as far as ships not sinking, I’ve had a Nippon Maru tanker which just didn’t want to sink, not even after 12 MK14 torpedoes… Nothing to be done. I simply restart the campaign patrol from port, didn't happen again after. (In those day's I played with no duds).

If you use TMO you might want to consider Longer Sinking Times from Bilge_Rat in combination with TDW Ship Plane Fire damage Mod’s and to top it off, use Smoke Mod for Trigger Maru Overhauled
Ships sink from damage and fire damage…………… eventually that is and the smoke is awesome. (this doesn't repair the no holes after a hit, sometimes you see them sometimes you don't).

Hit a Nagara Maru in a convoy with two torpedoes last night made an end-run, sunk a Heito Maru and a Auxiliary gun boat which was sailing at 1500yrds from my position at same speed waiting for me to run out of air. Anyway, completed my second end-run and found the Nagara listing badly and still making 9Knts. Fire was under control at least it seemed like it from the distance, then all of a sudden, while I was making calculations for my last attack on another Heito Maru, a big explosion and down she went, this took over 8 hours real time play.

[Sailor Steve]

Part of the idea behind TMO was not to make the AI more realistic, but to make you play more realistically, as in not taking on destroyers. To that end most things in TMO are harder than they were in real life.

[Sniper297]

I read somewhere on this forum that the blast radius in the ZON file affects whether or not the hole texture will appear, the larger the radius of destruction the more likely you are to see a hole. But they don't recommend hacking the blast radius to be too large, since it also affects how far the damage spreads to other compartments.

Which is what you're seeing - any warship is compartmented into lots of watertight zones so it takes more damage to sink. A mark 17 with 879 pounds of torpex (equivalent of about 1300 pounds of TNT) will make a big blast which will bend break weaken and make holes in several adjacent decks and bulkheads, thus flooding a bunch of compartments. A cutie warhead at 90 to 95 pounds will make a very small hole in comparison, and the blast radius would affect only one or two compartments. Even if the entire crew was dead drunk on sake and incapable of damage control, four small holes in a destroyer would be unlikely to cause a big problem unless all the hatches and watertight doors were latched open.

Ergo, your scenario with four cuties hitting a destroyer ANYWHERE and not doing much damage is very realistic. The destroyer isn't invincible, it's just shrugging off what's actually very minor damage from four 90 pound explosive hits. Mark 17 is a much better choice if you actually want to sink it, the idea behind the cutie is to hit it in the stern to damage propellers and shafts, to disable it so you can get away. Or slow it down enough, or even stop it, so it's easier to hit with a big torpedo.

[Shkval]

Ergo, your scenario with four cuties hitting a destroyer ANYWHERE and not doing much damage is very realistic.

No it's not realistic... THIS is realistic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlpx4DMGzYI :o :haha:

Off course this was Mk48 present time...

"Only" 90 pounds? That is 40 kilograms!!! Almost twice a howitzer grenade!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXFdwcVo-Ds

Do you realize how strong explosion is that, and how good is water at transferring impact...? VERY good!

It is not my first time to engage destroyers with cuties, and in 100% cases two of them are always enough... either to sink it, make it stop, or make it run away...

Similar things happened to me in SH3 also... destroyers coming out of nowhere, straight at me... super resistant to damage...

I have a feeling that somewhere in the code is a counter that unleashes these events every once at a while... the game is simply trying to destroy you...

If I were the captain of that destroyer, and something invisible hit me four times... 20 man wounded... leaking in every corner of the ship... I would run my ass off...

[merc4ulfate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn3Mr5kgvCY

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Mark_27_Mod_4_Acoustic_Torpedo.jpg



As you can see the Mark 27 is very small. Most of the size it taken up with batteries and four hitting a Destroyer certainly would not sink it if they knew how to close a few water tight doors.

TMO or not the cutie was not intended to sink ships. It's submarine use was intened to disable so the vessle by destroying or severally damaging the rudder and screws then the vessel could be sunk by Mark 14's.

The cutie was very useful in striking Sampans that were used as coastal watcher looking for submarines.

There were 1000 Mk 27 and 3000 Mk 27 Mod 4's produced and of 166 fired during the war 33 hit their targets.

[Sniper297]

Yeah, 90 pounds is a real strong explosion compared to the 650 pounds of the Mark 48. :hmmm: By the same logic why not just pull alongside and drop four hand grenades into the water since water is so good at transferring explosive impact. :88)

[ETR3(SS)]

:sign_yeah: That and a MK 48 uses PBXN for an explosive if memory serves me right.

[Sniper297]

Best I recall torpex was 1.5 times the power of equivalent weight of TNT, AMATOL was 1.1, PBX was something like 1.6. Assuming my recollector is recollecting recorrectly at my age. :doh: We had Mark 46 (obviously, an SH3D could carry up to four of those but the 46 weighed about 500 pounds versus the 48 3500 pounds, unsuitable for a helicopter) which was about the same size as a cutie, and the warhead was pretty close, something like 96 pounds. Main difference was speed and range, 12000 yards at 40 knots since a cutie stood no chance of chasing down a modern nuke sub at 12 knots with less than half the range.

Comparison is kind of idiotic to me, hit a sub with either one (except those titanium double hulled bastards the soviets were building which required the low yield nuke) and it's a kill, but a surface ship? 96 pound warhead versus 650 pound warhead? Mark 48 would kill a destroyer with one (or at most two) hits, but four Mark 46 hits would just piss it off. Same with the cutie versus a real torpedo.

[merc4ulfate]

Anyone ever ran a test to see if a cutie will follow an AI sub Sampan?

[Admiral Halsey]

except those titanium double hulled bastards the soviets were building which required the low yield nukeYou mean the Typhoons? I'll admit those are tough but they ain't that tough. Hit them with 4-8 Mark 48's and not even those bastards could survive.

[Sniper297]

That sounds right, again my IIRC is CRS (Can't Remember Sh!t, subset of alzheimers) these days.

Funny thing, the nuke warhead was classified "swallow cyanide and blind yourself with a sharp stick in both eyes before reading" and when I got out of the Navy in 82 I assumed they were still top secret. Until I read the first Tom Clancy novel a couple years later (Hunt for Red Oktober? CRS.), which gave me a hell of a shock with the detailed descriptions of stuff I was sworn never to talk about only a few years before. Best I recall them things were classified as "conventional" for treaty purposes, but it was a low yield nuke something like 1/10th of one kiloton. Still equal to 100 tons of TNT, which would make one hell of a bang. :arrgh!:

[ETR3(SS)]

Typhoons have a double steel hull. Alfa and Mike had the titanium hulls. A MK 48 will one shot up to a cruiser, about 4 (well placed) to kill a Nimitz.

[Sniper297]

Yeah, the where is important as well as what's going on at the time. Forrestal almost killed herself with a 5 inch ZUNI setting off a chain reaction, and the Japanese carriers at Midway were switching bombs and torpedoes on and off aircraft with ordinance and fuel hoses all over the deck when the first Dauntless bombs hit.

I've sunk battleships ingame with a single shot - but it requires some luck. The best sweet spot I found is between the forward turrets at a torpedo depth of 25 feet, often that sets off the entire forward magazine inducing secondary explosions throughout the ship. Even works on a Yamato sometimes. But you gotta be close and hit the right spot exactly.

EDIT: Forgot I uploaded this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiTR1LLTxgE&list=UUzwuy9Tm1iCv4iQsZeR0iYg

[Admiral Halsey]

Yeah i've hit them in that sweet spot before. Even then unless it's the the Yamato it normally only takes two. I also found that if you hit it in the engine room all carriers only need one torp.

[donna52522]

In the book 'Take her deep' the USS Halibut claimed to have sunk an enemy escort with a single cutie.

Out of 106 Mark 27's fired 33 scored hits, sinking 24 targets. It had a 95 lb (43 kg) Torpex warhead.

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/U/s/US_Mark_27_torpedo.htm

[TG626]

Sniper, FWIW I'm AKA frogpipe.

[torpedobait]

If you use TMO you might want to consider Longer Sinking Times from Bilge_Rat in combination with TDW Ship Plane Fire damage Mod’s and to top it off, use Smoke Mod for Trigger Maru Overhauled
Ships sink from damage and fire damage…………… eventually that is and the smoke is awesome. (this doesn't repair the no holes after a hit, sometimes you see them sometimes you don't).

.

I was not able to find the 3 mods listed above in either the New or Legacy Downloads sections. Does anyone have a link to them? Thanks! :salute:

[HertogJan]

I was not able to find the 3 mods listed above in either the New or Legacy Downloads sections. Does anyone have a link to them? Thanks! :salute:

LST Mod:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=193610&highlight=longer+sinking+time

Ship, plane fire damage Mod:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=180920

Smoke Mod:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=204180


Just in case people want it, here's the link for the Depth charge water disturbances Mod:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181540

[torpedobait]

Thank you, Sir.

:salute:

[merc4ulfate]

Take Her Deep ... I like that


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A nuclear tipped torpedo never hurt when in the hunt.

[ETR3(SS)]

Mk 45 ASTOR FTW! :yeah:

[Rammstein0991]

Never had this kinda issue happen to me, but a couple months back I did hit a Aussie DD while playing as a Monsun boat with a standard torp and somehow the little blighter limped away when he shoulda been cut clean in two :stare: