How many here carries a concealed weapon?

[Ducimus]

Something Neal said awhile ago in passing ( can't remember exactly when) made me think of this topic awhile ago, I just never got around to asking it until now.

The question being, How many here carry a concealed weapon? (or CCW for short). In American vernacular this typically implies carrying a handgun. However, i would extend that to ANY weapon. (See poll options).

As for myself, I have to state, that publicly in real life and not the internet, I would never state if i was carrying or not, or even if I ever had carried at all. (caveat: Unless stopped by a cop) Concealed means concealed, and it's nobody's business but my own, and there's no need to "show off" or alarm anyone. In fact, for all intents and purposes, the handgun I'm carrying doesn't exist at all unless:
A.) im considering entering an area where it is illegal to, or
B.) My back is against the wall, my life or the life of my wife or baby girl is in danger, and all other options have failed.

So having said that, obviously I carry. Originally, it was just so that I would have the option to if I knew for whatever reason i was going to be in a shady area or situation that I didn't want to be in. (There's a story behind that) However as time went on, I found I spent so much time, money, and energy in training classes, time on the firing range, time spent reading up on laws and getting informed; not to mention monetary costs in ammo, proper handgun, parts for said handgun, proper belt, holster, and Iphone apps for varying reasons, that I may as well carry on a regular basis.

My wife has the option to carry, however she does not because she's not willing to take on the responsibility as much as i have. I can respect that, all i ever wanted was for her to have the option to, if she so choose to. (We both went to the same classes)

Anywho, do you carry something? Doesn't have to be a firearm.

[Tango589]

Yes, IN MY PANTS!!:har:

Seriously, no. In the UK these things are rather frowned upon by Her Majesties Constabulary.

[Betonov]

Victorinox knife counts ?? (swiss army knife)

More of a tool than a weapon

[Ducimus]

Yes, IN MY PANTS!!:har:

Seriously, no. In the UK these things are rather frowned upon by Her Majesties Constabulary.

:haha:

Ok, I asked for that when i used the word "gun" at the end of my post. :salute:
I have since edited that discrepancy in vocabulary. A fellow's "gun" in something very different indeed. :har:

EDIT:

Victorinox knife counts ?? (swiss army knife)

More of a tool than a weapon

Probably does, depending on your local laws. But i do agree, more of a tool then a weapon. I used to carry a swiss army knife all the time. Damn sharp those things, and you could use it to defend yourself if you had to. Not an ideal weapon of choice, but hit someone in the neck with it, and you'll do some damage.

[vienna]

Who are you and why do you want to know? Just keep your hands where I can see 'em, NSA-boy...


<O>

[Betonov]

Local laws are not clear.
I'm allowed to carry a tool, any tool, but not a weapon.
Knives are both :doh:

I'll pick the one about yes, but not a gun.

[Oberon]

The only problem I have with bringing tools into any fight is that anything you have can be taken off you and used against you in a fight. Of course, if the other guy is armed first then that negates the point, but even a set of keys can make for a pretty good slashing weapon in the right hands. Used to be a popular tactic for the 'Firms' back in the day. This site shows a few good examples, although their 'phone' is somewhat more of a brick than most phones of today: http://www.urbancombatives.com/weapons.htm

[Jimbuna]

I used to carry a Glock 26 when called upon to do so and a Heckler & Koch MP5 on the rarest of occasions (only the former being concealed) and never felt totally comfortable but firearms are strictly controlled here in the UK.

[STEED]

I used to carry a Glock 26 when called upon to do so and a Heckler & Koch MP5 on the rarest of occasions (only the former being concealed) and never felt totally comfortable but firearms are strictly controlled here in the UK.

Woo. :o

Sco19 or was it So19 or was it Co19?

Never carry guns when you got a copy of Best of Mayfair on you, there is no room for both.

[Jimbuna]

Woo. :o

Sco19 or was it So19 or was it Co19?

Never carry guns when you got a copy of Best of Mayfair on you, there is no room for both.

Generally when a firearms issue was called in your patrol area or a 'shout' at Newcastle Airport.

[Ducimus]

The only problem I have with bringing tools into any fight is that anything you have can be taken off you and used against you in a fight. Of course, if the other guy is armed first then that negates the point,

That is a good point, and certainly one well documented on video with a few instances of robbery victims catching the robber by surprise and wrestling a gun away from the robber; but herein lays a counter point at least where crime in the United States is concerned. I would say it is a reasonable assumption that most criminals in the US are armed with something. I think it would be rare occurrence to find a perpetrator of a violent crime who is not armed in one way or another.

[STEED]

Generally when a firearms issue was called in your patrol area or a 'shout' at Newcastle Airport.

Better off throwing Newcastle Brown Ale at them.

[antikristuseke]

I usually have a pocket knife with me, but that is more of a tool than a weapon, though it can be used as on if need be. Whenever I go outdoors on a hike or some such I have a hunting knife with me on my belt, but that isn't really concealed, occasionally have a handaxre on the belt as well.
As for firearms, I have had a long term plan to get myelf a CZ 75B just for some range time and I find maintaining firearms relaxing, sort of like meditation. I doub't I would carry it on a regular basis even thouhg I would be within my rights to do so.

[Tribesman]

The poll doesn't contain the answer, "no, never felt the need to".
Neither does it contain , "no, never felt the need to even when staying in very dodgy notorious crapholes"

[AVGWarhawk]

I really have not felt the need(as Tribesman has worded it). Unless of course I go to the "seedy" parts of town of which I do not go. But, I would say I feel less safe today than the 80's-90's. Malls and schools have become hunting grounds for the "unstable."

[the_tyrant]

I really have not felt the need(as Tribesman has worded it). Unless of course I go to the "seedy" parts of town of which I do not go. But, I would say I feel less safe today than the 80's-90's. Malls and schools have become hunting grounds for the "unstable."

Its odd that you feel that way, I'll probably blame it on the media and this increased access to information. After all, statistics show that violent crime has been declining everywhere (ok, with a few exceptions) in the last 30 years.

[STEED]

No weapons on me just see no point too it.

[Tango589]

My hands are registered lethal weapons. I have to keep them locked in a cabinet when I'm not using them.

I'm so sorry, normal service will be resumed shortly.

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl2:

Now that was good! :yep: :rock:

[Jimbuna]

Yes we're both having a laugh on Skype at that :)

[Ducimus]

I really have not felt the need(as Tribesman has worded it).

Didn't see that. I have him squelched for ample reasons. Never feeling the need never even occurred to me. Probably because at the earliest age, i at times felt a need to carry something, even if only temporary. I think the earliest I've encountered a time when, "Gee I wish i had something on me", was Jr High when one of the schoolyard bully's decided to ambush me while walking home and held a knife to my throat with my back quite literally against a cinder block wall. Funny, to this day, I can still identify that blade by sight. In sum, i think having felt the need is all about perspective or what one experiences in life.


Unless of course I go to the "seedy" parts of town of which I do not go.

Growing up in Southern California in the 80's and 90's, I know ALL about that. But I would extend that further to clothing. Some brands of clothing, or clothing style you do not wear, less you be confused with one street gang or another. EDIT: One thing i forgot to mention is that sometimes the "seedy" parts of town come to you.


But, I would say I feel less safe today than the 80's-90's. Malls and schools have become hunting grounds for the "unstable."

As the_tyrant pointed out, violent crime has been on the decline. The media and special interest groups sensationalize tragic events for ratings, and political gain. Proponents said it themselves. "Never let a good tragedy go to waste." (http://youtu.be/Rs6TgitlNIA) So they focus on it so much until you'd swear what they were rallying against was as common as gum stains on a sidewalk.

[AVGWarhawk]

Its odd that you feel that way, I'll probably blame it on the media and this increased access to information. After all, statistics show that violent crime has been declining everywhere (ok, with a few exceptions) in the last 30 years.

I would agree. Things going on in my area I get updated on in the Facebook App. AA Counting Breaking New as it is called. If I did not have this feed in Facebook I would never know. But, it has helped in that I'm more aware of my surroundings.

[AVGWarhawk]

Didn't see that. I have him squelched for ample reasons. Never feeling the need never even occurred to me. Probably because at the earliest age, i at times felt a need to carry something, even if only temporary. I think the earliest I've encountered a time when, "Gee I wish i had something on me", was Jr High when one of the schoolyard bully's decided to ambush me while walking home and held a knife to my throat with my back quite literally against a cinder block wall. Funny, to this day, I can still identify that blade by sight. In sum, i think having felt the need is all about perspective or what one experiences in life.




Growing up in Southern California in the 80's and 90's, I know ALL about that. But I would extend that further to clothing. Some brands of clothing, or clothing style you do not wear, less you be confused with one street gang or another. EDIT: One thing i forgot to mention is that sometimes the "seedy" parts of town come to you.



As the_tyrant pointed out, violent crime has been on the decline. The media and special interest groups sensationalize tragic events for ratings, and political gain. Proponents said it themselves. "Never let a good tragedy go to waste." (http://youtu.be/Rs6TgitlNIA) So they focus on it so much until you'd swear what they were rallying against was as common as gum stains on a sidewalk.


I can see in your situation when growing up always having to looking behind yourself. I only feel that way in some locations, ie. Baltimore city proper. By and large, I feel safe but still keep aware of my surroundings.

[Platapus]

Ok, I asked for that when i used the word "gun" at the end of my post.


I sometimes get the two confused

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kU0XCVey_U

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Only thing I carry (except obvious as pointed out by five-eight-niner :D) is white cane. Makes good club if crook is dumb enough to allow me to fold it, has nice cord for strangling, can be swiftly disassembled for pointy sticks... Not that I ever have had need to use it as weapon. Much more a tool.

I would carry firearm if:
a) it was legal and
b) I could actually hit my target
I would carry knife if:
a) it was legal...

Where I live there are instances when something more lethal would be nice to have. Drunks aren't trouble, nobody has tried to rob me - actually nobody has ever stolen anything from me (yet) and we don't (yet) have gang problem (other than Hell's Angels, Cannonballs etc.). Unfortunately I seem to attract drug addicts and other nutjobs who want to share either:
a) their view of the world... or what ever it is where they are at the moment
b) tell that they are dwarfs, elves, gnolls... (tends to change along the way)
c) that they can fly
d) what they are going to do to me or
e) ramble something I can't reasonably figure out
So far calm attitude and treating them as totally sane has kept me out of trouble. However I would prefer to have something to defend myself as running away isn't in the cards (where would I run?).

[Ducimus]

I can see in your situation when growing up always having to looking behind yourself. I only feel that way in some locations, ie. Baltimore city proper. By and large, I feel safe but still keep aware of my surroundings.

Well, I'll tell you why I decided to exercise my option to carry, as briefly as i can. This event has become rather infamous in my immediate circles as the story of the shady movers.

Attempting to make a long story short, my wife has an old friend that is really down on her luck. She has moved from our area to Florida, but had a storage unit full of merchandise she sells on Ebay for income still in our area. This friend of my wife is on a fixed and limited income, and is only in town for a few days, and has come to move her stuff. Since she's on a really tight budget, she hire's the cheapest movers she can find.

Said movers are supposed to show up late morning. They don't show up tell the evening, and when they do show up, they are throwing up a bunch of red flags that I immediately recognize:

- The truck is an out of state ryder rental with a california plate. (We are in Utah)
- The movers are dressed in gang attire.
- The movers have tattoo's in places most ordinary people don't. ON the back of their neck, back of the head, most notable is the tear drops below their eyes.

So after some conversation, come to find out, the cheapest movers my wifes friend can find hires convicted felons. Or should i say, Ex con's. I am completely on edge. So there we are, at the back of a storage facility. My wife and her friend, completely oblivious being locals to "happy valley" (because nothing ever happens here), decide to sit in the very back of this storage unit to play cards, while these movers load up this truck.

So let me reiterate this situation. We are in the back of a storage unit, in the very back of a storage facility, its 10 PM (so we are there after hours), nobody is around, and 3 ex cons are blocking the ONLY exit to this storage unit. It's just me, my wife, and her friend. If they wanted to, they could have EASILY put me down, and did whatever they wanted to with my wife or her friend, and nobody would have seen a thing. Not even a security camera.

I grew up in such away, where I would never allow myself to be put in that situation. However, my wifes friend is an idiot, my wife wasn't about to abandon her friend, and I wasn't about to abandon my wife.

Nothing happened, but it could have very easily gone very bad. As an aside, as i look back on that situation, I often wonder if those shady movers thought I had a gun on me, because It wasn't cold enough for a flannel shirt, but I was wearing one anyway. Wearing an "over shirt" that covers your waist, is a common concealment method. It could very well be that, that thought I was carrying was the only reason they didn't try something. Or maybe they just didn't feel like going back to prison, ill never know. One thing i do know, I swore to myself I would never allow us to be in that situation again.

[Schroeder]

Only thing I carry (except obvious as pointed out by five-eight-niner :D) is white cane. Makes good club if crook is dumb enough to allow me to fold it, has nice cord for strangling, can be swiftly disassembled for pointy sticks... Not that I ever have had need to use it as weapon. Much more a tool.

I would carry firearm if:
a) it was legal and
b) I could actually hit my target
I would carry knife if:
a) it was legal...

Where I live there are instances when something more lethal would be nice to have. Drunks aren't trouble, nobody has tried to rob me - actually nobody has ever stolen anything from me (yet) and we don't (yet) have gang problem (other than Hell's Angels, Cannonballs etc.). Unfortunately I seem to attract drug addicts and other nutjobs who want to share either:
a) their view of the world... or what ever it is where they are at the moment
b) tell that they are dwarfs, elves, gnolls... (tends to change along the way)
c) that they can fly
d) what they are going to do to me or
e) ramble something I can't reasonably figure out
So far calm attitude and treating them as totally sane has kept me out of trouble. However I would prefer to have something to defend myself as running away isn't in the cards (where would I run?).
Have you ever considered a gas pistol if that is legal in Finland? They are non lethal, look sometimes like the real thing and a dose of tear gas and/or pepper should render an attacker unable to strike at you effectively.:cool:

[TFatseas]

I carry a Browning Hi-Power.

No big deal, it's just the "better to have than to not have" aspect to me.

[Onkel Neal]

I'm carrying a Ruger LC9 right now, whilst sipping coffee at a shop and updating the Subsim News. No big deal. I doubt I will ever need to draw it, and if I do, it will be only after the chance to get away has been stopped. But, in a large US city like Houston, you see idiots robbing people at gun and knife-point every day. I would like to have a prayer of a chance to fight back if that were to happen.

[Ducimus]

Well, since were naming carry pieces, I currently carry a Smith and Wesson M&P Shield in 9mm with the factor sights replaced with Ameriglo Tritium I dot pro (http://youtu.be/zlXHlOHGJfk). Before I was able to actually find a shield in one of my local gun shops, I was carrying my Beretta M9A1 as my concealed carry. Yes it is possible without too much printing with the right IWB holster, but heavy after awhile. It has since been relegated to it's more proper place as the home defense piece.

I do agree that after carrying for awhile, it really isn't a big deal. Though I do think the responsibility that comes with carrying is kinda big. If that makes any sense without coming across as contradictory. :88) (probably does. :shifty: )

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Have you ever considered a gas pistol if that is legal in Finland? They are non lethal, look sometimes like the real thing and a dose of tear gas and/or pepper should render an attacker unable to strike at you effectively.:cool:In theory I could, in practice no. I would have to prove the need for it and its kinda difficult unless you are vartija (lit. guard, stricly just that) or järjestyksenvalvoja (essentially private security officer, slightly wider authority than vartija has). Sooo... get yourself beated up and come back again... :nope:

[Schroeder]

I thought we had strict laws for them...:doh:
Over here you need a concealed carry permit for them.:88)

[TFatseas]

Well, since were naming carry pieces, I currently carry a Smith and Wesson M&P Shield in 9mm with the factor sights replaced with Ameriglo Tritium I dot pro (http://youtu.be/zlXHlOHGJfk). Before I was able to actually find a shield in one of my local gun shops, I was carrying my Beretta M9A1 as my concealed carry. Yes it is possible without too much printing with the right IWB holster, but heavy after awhile. It has since been relegated to it's more proper place as the home defense piece.

I do agree that after carrying for awhile, it really isn't a big deal. Though I do think the responsibility that comes with carrying is kinda big. If that makes any sense without coming across as contradictory. :88) (probably does. :shifty: )

Obviously, I'm speaking more to the idea that some make a big deal out of carrying a weapon. I don't.

I wish more would exercise that right, as long as it is done safely and smartly.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I thought we had strict laws for them...:doh:
Over here you need a concealed carry permit for them.:88)We don't have concealed carry permits in sense you and Americans have. Here you can carry your firearm freely as long as it:
a) is within its case
b) is unloaded :doh:
c) you have good reason for transporting (such as going to hunt or to firing range)
Self-defence doesn't count for c) as we are apparently expected to trust that police can protect us even when response time is sometimes counted in hours not minutes. :nope:

This is partly an kneejerk reaction to school shootings (Jokela & Kauhajoki) so now situation is essentially going towards point where two groups have firearms or weapons of any kind:
a) those who have special permit such police and certain security officers (such as money van guards, not regular vartija or järjestyksenvalvoja)
b) those who don't bother their minds with "silly government regulations" such as organized crime groups
:/\\!!

[Schroeder]

We don't have concealed carry permits in sense you and Americans have.
Well, our concealed carrying permit only includes gas pistols, not live firearms. You can't carry a gun with you unless you are with law enforcement, military or have a hunter's license (requires plenty of training and some tests and only allows unloaded open carrying).

[TheDarkWraith]

Depends on where I'm heading to as to which weapon I carry:
- S&W M&P 45 for dangerous areas
- H&K P30L for just about everything else
- S&W M&P 22 for special trips

[Ducimus]

Obviously, I'm speaking more to the idea that some make a big deal out of carrying a weapon. I don't.

I wish more would exercise that right, as long as it is done safely and smartly.

I agree. Though I do think that if one chooses to carry, they have an obligation to themselves and their fellow citizens to not only carry safely and smartly, but also an obligation to have the ability to hit what their aiming at as well. To reiterate, i think carrying is not a big deal, but making the decision to carry is because i think it both a responsibility and a commitment. But that's just me, and my anal nature about certain things. If i don't get good shot groupings at the range, i''m really hard on myself.

[TheDarkWraith]

When I have to draw my sidearm my hope is that this will act as the deterrent and stop whatever is happening. Try to avoid pulling that trigger unless you absolutely have to :yep:

[swamprat69er]

It's only cops and other crooks are allowed to carry sidearms in Canada.

That being said, I imagine that IF i tried hard enough I could probably get the necessary permits to own one, but in order to transport it to the range I would need a permit for that, too. Not worth the hassle in my eyes.

[Tchocky]

Well it seems every joke I came here to make has been taken care of.

Good job everyone :)

[RickC Sniper]

I cannot handle a handgun (disability) but if I could, I would be carrying one.

My son has been carrying concealed for over 10 years.

[Aktungbby]

Good job everyone :)

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hello/waving-hat-smiley-emoticon.gif:lurk::sign_yeah:

[fireftr18]

Nice post. Made a good discussion. I'm choosing to not say either way if my wife, my son, or I carry or not. As Ducimus wrote, the idea is that it's concealed, so no one knows if you carry or not.

[Stealhead]

In my humble opinion everyone carries a weapon 24/7.It is right on top of your head between your ears.

Sometimes I do carry a Kimber Super Carry Ultra.

Stuff happens that is true but I am a firm believer that just having good situational awareness is a useful "tool" that can keep you out of trouble or make you
less likely to be the victim of a crime.Now I am not talking about spending every second sitting in fear.I mean simply paying attention to your surroundings when you are doing this
the the kind of people that are looking for an easy target are looking and 99% of the time they will avoid you.

[Father Goose]

In my humble opinion everyone carries a weapon 24/7.It is right on top of your head between your ears.

Sometimes I do carry a Kimber Super Carry Ultra.

Stuff happens that is true but I am a firm believer that just having good situational awareness is a useful "tool" that can keep you out of trouble or make you
less likely to be the victim of a crime.Now I am not talking about spending every second sitting in fear.I mean simply paying attention to your surroundings when you are doing this
the the kind of people that are looking for an easy target are looking and 99% of the time they will avoid you.

I agree. +1
I carry a Sig Sauer P229 SAS 357.
I also have a Benelli M4 Tactical shotgun in my hut to "persuade" the savages on the island to go away.

[Stealhead]

I know at least in my own experience when I am in an area that does not look right I'll head some other direction.

Once while I was stationed in Germany I got a bit turned around in a larger town.I could tell that it was not the best area so I figured it was best to turn around and head in the opposite direction.A German later told me that I was wise to not head that way there had been a string of muggings in that same area.

I did have a close call once at a gas station.I usually do a little scan as a I drive up and if I do not like what I see I'll go elsewhere.Well once I was distracted and not notice a group of bad dudes standing in the lot and by the door.

By the time I saw them I was too close would have had to put my back to them to head away a no-go in this situation.So I just kept walking though I was ready for action(I did not have a gun this day). So I just got myself into Zen mode like the old time samurai did before a battle.(I am a master of this I was so relaxed during a wisdom tooth operation I kept setting of the heart monitor deal they had on my finger)

One guy who was obviously the ring leader was watching me pretty close no doubt sizing me up.Well the one nearest me started to move towards me.Just as he was about to make a move the "leader" said "nah nah bro not him":timeout: Not sure what there plan was could have been anything from heckling for money to mugging.

Anyway point of the story is that the leader of this little pack must have observed my level of awareness made him decide not to play ball.Good thing as I'd have gone off like a damn rabid badger.Might not have won but I'd have taken a few down with me.

[Armistead]

My wife and I both conceal carry with permit of course. I know she always has hers, mine usually stays in the car. I do open carry a lot in the summer when I metal detect.

[Ducimus]

When I have to draw my sidearm my hope is that this will act as the deterrent and stop whatever is happening. Try to avoid pulling that trigger unless you absolutely have to :yep:

My personal opinion is that if i handle myself correctly, and do everything i can to avoid or defuse a situation, then I should never have to draw my firearm. Going by this train of though, If I am forced to draw, then everything else has gone horribly wrong, and while I can always hope that just the presentation of a firearm will stop an attack, I do not expect it to.

The main reason for this train of thought is because the very act of presenting your gun, is in fact, Brandishing, which may be a misdemeanor or a felony. Depending on your state, municipality, etc. Regardless, it is a chargeable crime, which will land you in court, and most likely loss of your permit with possible fines and jail time. The best compromise that I have been able to find through reading, between not brandishing, but yet warning off an attack, is to assume a draw stance, put your hand over or on your firearm, but do not present, nor let them see it, nor can you say, "I have a gun" believe it or not. In other words, you have to use body language that says "I'm about to open a lead bang stick of whoop ass if you don't back off", without actual presentation. If that makes any sense, It's just one of those things best explained in a demonstration.




In my humble opinion everyone carries a weapon 24/7.It is right on top of your head between your ears.

Sometimes I do carry a Kimber Super Carry Ultra.

Stuff happens that is true but I am a firm believer that just having good situational awareness is a useful "tool" that can keep you out of trouble or make you less likely to be the victim of a crime. Now I am not talking about spending every second sitting in fear.I mean simply paying attention to your surroundings when you are doing this the the kind of people that are looking for an easy target are looking and 99% of the time they will avoid you.

Agreed. Situational awareness is something everyone should be doing. Simply paying attention to your surroundings will get keep you out of most trouble. Of course having said that, I can't help but comment on idiots absorbed in their own little world by going around with ear buds, or madly texting on their smart phones.

[antikristuseke]

My personal opinion is that if i handle myself correctly, and do everything i can to avoid or defuse a situation, then I should never have to draw my firearm. Going by this train of though, If I am forced to draw, then everything else has gone horribly wrong, and while I can always hope that just the presentation of a firearm will stop an attack, I do not expect it to.

I am inclined to think in the same way, I would only reveal a weapon with every intent to put it to immediate and effective use. Now, should the cosmic dice roll deter hostile actions towards me without me actually having to pull the trigger, I would obviously not pull the trigger.

[Tribesman]

Never feeling the need never even occurred to me.

The fact that a very simple and obvious answer never even occurred to you speaks volumes.

But it is understandable.....
Probably because at the earliest age, i at times felt a need to carry something, even if only temporary.
....from an early age you have been conditioned to live in fear and the conditioning has stuck.

In sum, i think having felt the need is all about perspective or what one experiences in life.

Pespective only, two people can encounter exactly the same experiences and come away with different perspectives

[August]

I have a license to carry concealed, I don't often do though.

[Stealhead]

Agreed. Situational awareness is something everyone should be doing. Simply paying attention to your surroundings will get keep you out of most trouble. Of course having said that, I can't help but comment on idiots absorbed in their own little world by going around with ear buds, or madly texting on their smart phones.


Yeah those types are asking for trouble in general just due to not being able to hear or see general hazards coming.I think some man in New York City got squashed by a Mack truck(well some brand of dump truck) that was backing up he was jamming out to his music till he got crushed by 10 tons of love seems he was standing at the rear of the truck and the driver could not see him I think the driver got a minor fine for not getting out and checking before he started backing up.Still the pedestrian failed to notice the diesel pumping away right near him or the air brakes and the reverse beeper.

No doubt a few people have walked into traffic or a hole in the ground tapping away on their gadgets.

I learned situational awareness from my dad.Back in the 80's he used to write a sports column and he'd go to the high school football games and take photos from the side line.I wanted to go with him once and he let me go.He said "pay attention on the sidelines or you'll get hit" well I was busy watching him take photos and barely missed getting nailed by a few players that got knocked out of bounds scared the crap out of me but I learned.

[Platapus]

"How many here carries a concealed weapon?"

Yikes! :/\\!!:D

[Oberon]

Not...honestly...quite sure why Tribesman was brigged for that reply... :hmmm:

There is seemingly a culture of 'fear' in the US based around the need to arm or be the victim of someone who is armed (the firearm gap?). In the UK there is no such culture, yes there are criminals with guns, but this does not mean that the average citizen feels an urge to purchase a firearm (legally or illegally) unless they are likely to interact with these elements in a close manner (ie, becoming a gang member). I don't know what the situation is like in other nations, but I would wager that the desire to own a firearm is relatively proportioned to the firearm laws of the nation in question. The UK has not had a permissive firearms law for many years, so there is no real culture behind firearms and thus no real average citizen desire to own one.

In regards to perceptions, I also concur, two people can have completely different viewpoints based upon one experience, and that is just human nature. Certainly it would seem that the moderators and I have different viewpoints on the inflection of Tribesmans post. Could well be another one of those Atlantic differences perhaps... :hmmm:

[Rilder]

Would never carry a weapon out in public, and would only ever own a gun with historical value. (Like a musket or something)

Don't see why I should carry a "One hit dead" button around, life is to valuable. Furthermore I don't know how I would act in a situation where I was scared and armed. The fight or flight instinct can kick in situations that aren't necessarily "Evil people coming to get you" and I don't want to be in a position where I could react with such finality that easily. It definitely happens a fair bit in the US where someone gets in an accident or stranded, etc and try to go to a house for help only to get shot because the person behind the door is (naturally) afraid and reacts.

[August]

I don't know what the situation is like in other nations, but I would wager that the desire to own a firearm is relatively proportioned to the firearm laws of the nation in question. The UK has not had a permissive firearms law for many years, so there is no real culture behind firearms and thus no real average citizen desire to own one.

I guess one can become used to the chains of oppression if one wears them long enough.

I wonder, and this is a serious question Oberon, what would make the British take to the streets in protest? What would be unacceptable no matter how long your government took it away? The loss of free speech, the right to privacy, Free association, what?

[August]

It definitely happens a fair bit in the US where someone gets in an accident or stranded, etc and try to go to a house for help only to get shot because the person behind the door is (naturally) afraid and reacts.

"A fair bit"? Any evidence or statistics to justify that opinion?

[Ducimus]

There is seemingly a culture of 'fear' in the US based around the need to arm or be the victim of someone who is armed (the firearm gap?).

I disagree. Personally, I only carry, because I have too much time effort and energy invested into having the option to. Carrying every day was not my intention, it's just how it worked out. My original intention was that If i thought that I may be heading into a situation i'd rather avoid, but can't, then i would have the option to carry for protection. There are many who also have carry licenses, but do not carry every day. In fact, ill wager most do not. And as I explained earlier, in all my life, having grown up in california, I never even considered getting a concealed firearm license until after the "Shady movers" event that I explained on page two. That is what in fact prompted me to get one.

In all reality, all I will ever use my carry gun for, is a paper hole puncher, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I do not expect bad men to come jumping out of the bushes at me at any minute. Being prepared and being afraid are two different things.

The only culture of fear I would agree to, is the after effects of 911, but is another topic entirely.

[Oberon]

I guess one can become used to the chains of oppression if one wears them long enough.

I wonder, and this is a serious question Oberon, what would make the British take to the streets in protest? What would be unacceptable no matter how long your government took it away? The loss of free speech, the right to privacy, Free association, what?

:hmmm:

I guess it would depend on how it was framed by the media, certainly if things like secret police were created that would probably cause an uproar. Free speech, it would depend on how it was curtailed, but I imagine that most attempts at curtailment would see a protest. Privacy, not really sure about to be honest, in regards to electronic privacy, well I think most people have just assumed that they are being monitored, hence the complete lack of surprise to the Snowden 'revelations'. Free Association...I doubt that exists completely in a modern society, not even in America...because let's face it, a good percentage of Americans just parrot what the biased media sources feed them, likewise Brits.

You seem to think that just because we don't have the right to bear arms that we are an oppressed society? That makes a good portion of the whole planet oppressed, and some rather dodgy nations unoppressed, Somalia for one. I think that there may just be a smidge of bias in your assumptions.
I for one am reasonably content, I have a roof over my head, I've got access to free healthcare (for the moment), access to food and water, and access to a relatively uncensored internet (with the only real censoring being pirates and porn).

Besides, Brits do protest, it just rarely makes the news because we generally don't make too much of a fuss about it, the war against Iraq saw over a million people in protest in London, in fact if you go down outside the Houses of Parliament on any day of the week you will find a group protesting on something.

[Oberon]

I disagree. Personally, I only carry, because I have too much time effort and energy invested into having the option to. Carrying every day was not my intention, it's just how it worked out. My original intention was that If i thought that I may be heading into a situation i'd rather avoid, but can't, then i would have the option to carry for protection. There are many who also have carry licenses, but do not carry every day. In fact, ill wager most do not. And as I explained earlier, in all my life, having grown up in california, I never even considered getting a concealed firearm license until after the "Shady movers" event that I explained on page two. That is what in fact prompted me to get one.

In all reality, all I will ever use my carry gun for, is a paper hole puncher, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I do not expect bad men to come jumping out of the bushes at me at any minute. Being prepared and being afraid are two different things.

The only culture of fear I would agree to, is the after effects of 911, but is another topic entirely.

That's fair enough, although I would interject that there was an element of...if not fear, then certainly unease based upon your encounter with the shady movers that prompted you to consider a concealed license.
Certainly I will not, or ever, question the right of Americans to bear arms, as I have mentioned before, it is a quintessential American thing, like the Eagle, the Stars and Stripes and so on and so forth. Any President who tries to impose such laws is just asking for an impeachment, that is pretty certain.
I think also that it would depend upon your daily situation, I have been to places in London where I have felt uneasy, but generally I try to avoid such areas after nightfall. Obviously if you are unable to for some reason then you would want to take measures to protect yourself. Is a gun the answer? Perhaps, but equally a gun is also a contributor to the creation of dangerous situations by accident, as Rilder mentioned, the accidental shootings caused by fear of home invasion. Once that bullet leaves the gun, you can't take it back, and it's designed to be as damaging as possible to the human body.

I think the problem is, is that anyone who isn't an American, who hasn't been brought up with that right to bear arms drummed into them by society (for good or for ill) will struggle to understand it, I know I certainly do.
Does this mean that America is more free because of firearms laws? I would personally question that deeply, especially in an era of drone warfare and stand-off armaments. I have and always will, question the effectiveness of the 2nd Amendment in overthrowing a government, particularly one as sprawling and well armed as that of the United States. Whilst certainly you would get military personnel turning against the government, whether it would be enough to make a difference, especially when the nuclear launch codes are held by the government...I don't know. I think it would take a lot to make a government nuke its own citizens, but M16s, SPAS-12s and Berettas would only do so much against airstrikes and artillery.

In regards to 9/11, I hear you, I hear you loud and clear and I think that is a problem that has faced the whole world over the last decade.

[August]

:hmmm:

I guess it would depend on how it was framed by the media, certainly if things like secret police were created that would probably cause an uproar. Free speech, it would depend on how it was curtailed, but I imagine that most attempts at curtailment would see a protest. Privacy, not really sure about to be honest, in regards to electronic privacy, well I think most people have just assumed that they are being monitored, hence the complete lack of surprise to the Snowden 'revelations'. Free Association...I doubt that exists completely in a modern society, not even in America...because let's face it, a good percentage of Americans just parrot what the biased media sources feed them, likewise Brits.

You seem to think that just because we don't have the right to bear arms that we are an oppressed society? That makes a good portion of the whole planet oppressed, and some rather dodgy nations unoppressed, Somalia for one. I think that there may just be a smidge of bias in your assumptions.
I for one am reasonably content, I have a roof over my head, I've got access to free healthcare (for the moment), access to food and water, and access to a relatively uncensored internet (with the only real censoring being pirates and porn).

Besides, Brits do protest, it just rarely makes the news because we generally don't make too much of a fuss about it, the war against Iraq saw over a million people in protest in London, in fact if you go down outside the Houses of Parliament on any day of the week you will find a group protesting on something.:oops: I realized that after I posted. What I should have asked is what would make you revolt ala Kiev.

[August]

BTW the poll is missing the option:

"Yes sometimes I do, because rights not exercised are soon lost."

That's be my choice. :salute:

[Hjalfnar]

As carrying guns and other weapons, concealed or openly, is against the law in Germany (with expections for people with hunting license), the question simply doesn't show up for me. Especially as I know a few people who are allowed to use small caliber guns in the "Schützenverein" (you know, these guys with the fancy hats, drinking too much and playing awful music, the English term "gun club" doesn't fit here^^), which are mostly heavy drinkers and tend to use the things on themself sooner or later...or go amok, what happened 3 times the last 3 years and it were always guys from the Schützenverein (which added to their already bad reputation).

As in Germany even the police doesn't have to use their guns that often (around 100 times the last year, I think...and I mean the hole german police force of the hole country^^) it simply isn't worth the risk...and you simply don't need it.

[Ducimus]

Certainly I will not, or ever, question the right of Americans to bear arms, as I have mentioned before, it is a quintessential American thing, like the Eagle, the Stars and Stripes and so on and so forth. Any President who tries to impose such laws is just asking for an impeachment, that is pretty certain.

There are American's who would disagree with that assessment, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a domestic debate on the subject at all. :O:


I think also that it would depend upon your daily situation, I have been to places in London where I have felt uneasy, but generally I try to avoid such areas after nightfall. Obviously if you are unable to for some reason then you would want to take measures to protect yourself.

Here I would like to state something that I've learned years ago. We are all products of our environment. Every one of us. How we are, how we think, how we perceive things, is molded into shape by our daily lives. On that note, I think as environments change, so do people, but I wonder if the overall "molding" is cumulative. Anyway.. just a tangent there.



Is a gun the answer? Perhaps,
If you want a weapon for defense (IE: to save life and limb), I would argue you'd want the weapon that would greatest maximize your chances of success and survival, would you not?

but equally a gun is also a contributor to the creation of dangerous situations by accident, as Rilder mentioned, the accidental shootings caused by fear of home invasion.

Probably no more then any other weapon. In a situation where you find yourself stumbling around in the dark (which i think stupid) with a knife, or club, is no different then a gun. Regardless of choice of weapon, you can't see who's in front of you. Mistakes can be made.

Once that bullet leaves the gun, you can't take it back, and it's designed to be as damaging as possible to the human body.

Not necessarily true. It depends on what you choose to load the gun with. Options include your standard "Ball" ammunition. Hollow points, which do as you describe, or Less than lethal ammunition. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhQCMQ4K3PY


I think the problem is, is that anyone who isn't an American, who hasn't been brought up with that right to bear arms drummed into them by society (for good or for ill) will struggle to understand it, I know I certainly do.

Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture.

Amazingly Maw Zedong may have said it best, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." The American people keeping and bearing arms is highly symbolic that ultimately the political power in this country rests within "We the people". (Or at least it should :shifty: ) Our country never had a Monarchy of any sort, and was established as a Constitutional Republic with Democratic tendencies. I think you may agree that symbolism can be a powerful thing, so to ask an American to give up their guns, is in fact, asking A LOT.

When Charlton Heston (infamously in progressive circles) held up a reproduction musket and said, "from my cold dead hands", it' wasn't just a gun he holding up in the air, but an object that symbolizes many things valued.
http://woodgatesview.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/charlton-heston-cold-dead-hands1.jpg

[MH]

Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture]

I can agree with that and that is possibly something worth fighting for.
I just hate when the gun issue - the right of every citizen to carry a gun is shown in some practical ways like crime prevention and so on.
Having every one armed simply raises the bar of violence.
Now it is sort of debate about what came first...chicken or the egg.

[Aktungbby]

Pespective only, two people can encounter exactly the same experiences and come away with different perspectives

"How many here carries a concealed weapon?"

Yikes! :/\\!!:D


In regards to perceptions, I also concur, two people can have completely different viewpoints based upon one experience, and that is just human nature.

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hello/waving-hat-smiley-emoticon.gif:lurk::sign_yeah:

I find the thread somewhat inappropriate at this juncture which my original post was intended to reflect. The first aspect of training which is required in California along with A P.O.S.T. certificate is that it (CCW'S) is not discussed; the weapon is never revealed and it is never brandished. If it is drawn, it is used, or it never should have been drawn at all. Various newspapers have, at times attempted to publish the names of CCW holders, as function of a 'public document' therefore of public interest, and been refuted by the issuing authorities as 'invasive of privacy' or an actual threat to the safety of the permitee. I have actually warded off a would-be mugger, in my case traversing in Central Park NYC while armed-hand on holstered grip, and have no concept of how often in public, in a professional capacity, in full kit or mufti, my paid presence is sufficient to deter the bad guys. The firearm is merely a prop to the real weapon, as Steelhead puts it blithely, 'between your ears'; situational awareness, command presence, some good verbal judo and some escalation of force capacity are better weapons. By the latter I mean a good pepper spray. In an after-action-settlement by 'tryers of fact'(a jury or inquest), and there will be one, the ability to demonstrate that the firearm was not your only option speaks volumes as to your initial restraint and utter need to resort to deadly force as you must demonstrate the element of great fear of bodily harm or loss of life to exonerate your 'justifiable homicide'. Moreover, if after using said weapon, you must detain or restrain the assailant with cuffs or his belt, thus taking him into custody, a citizen's arrest, even if obviously deceased as you are not medically qualified to determine otherwise. You're 'incapacitating your assailant' not 'blowing his ass away'...and it must appear so to the 'tryers of fact'. In short: a CCW is a major pain and if you own a home or have a fiduciary portfolio look out! It ain't about the long arm of the law...it's about the deep pocket of your homeowner's insurance carrier and the municipality that issued you the CCW's liability! Believe me; your perception in an adrenalin-laced moment of tunnel-vision along a gunsight and the 'tryer of fact's' perception and perspective, six months later, in a cool 'Monday morning quarter-backing' of your 'inalienable privilege' to defend your own miserable hide will not be the same...as with Mr. Zimmerman, lately of Florida or the equally infamous Bernhard Goetz of the 1984 Subway shooting in NYC. :salute:

[Oberon]

:oops: I realized that after I posted. What I should have asked is what would make you revolt ala Kiev.

I couldn't tell you to be perfectly serious and honest. No one could have predicted that the police shooting of Mark Duggan would spark off the 2011 riots. We've had our fair share of civil uprisings in the past, and even fairly recently, but nothing in the scope of what's taking place in Kiev for...well...centuries. The closest you could get to it, probably, would be the Easter Rising in Ireland in 1916, but on the mainland, probably not since the Jacobites in the 1700s.
The last real big bust up before the 2011 riots was probably the Poll Tax Riots, if I'm honest the era of Maggie Thatcher is a good place to look if you want to see British unrest on full display.

Poll Tax Riots - 1990 - Economic/Social unrest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF5-enWLYGU

Brixton and Toxteth Riots - 1981 Social/Race unrest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCjZEZt3QKc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EoHbjqCw94

Miners Strike - Orgreave Picket 'Battle for Orgreave' - 1984 Social unrest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsRmDLD089M

Jimbuna will probably get some memories from that footage, I know he was at Toxteth, and no doubt was roped in to deal with the miners.

More recently we had a fairly big scuffle over Tuition fees:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI5VY81IdG8

Which probably helped lead into the 2011 riots, it was all in the same year IIRC.

But a full on revolution and overthrow of the government would require something of a magnitude greater than what we've seen already, it would need the government to make a catastrophic screw up and the media to report on it fairly widely (which shouldn't take much, the rolling news loves a good riot) and for enough people to actually be affected by it in a big way. Or, it might take nothing at all...I honestly couldn't say, these things tend to come out of the field and catch us off guard.

[Oberon]

There are American's who would disagree with that assessment, otherwise there wouldn't be much of a domestic debate on the subject at all. :O:

True that, still the history of America is inextricably linked with the gun, Colt, Smith and Wessen, Winchester, household names. Take the gun out of America...it just wouldn't seem right.


Here I would like to state something that I've learned years ago. We are all products of our environment. Every one of us. How we are, how we think, how we perceive things, is molded into shape by our daily lives. On that note, I think as environments change, so do people, but I wonder if the overall "molding" is cumulative. Anyway.. just a tangent there.

Not going to disagree at all. Spot on in my opinion.

If you want a weapon for defense (IE: to save life and limb), I would argue you'd want the weapon that would greatest maximize your chances of success and survival, would you not?

This is true, and ultimately the problem lies with the fleshy bit that's holding the gun. If someone is going to kill someone else, they'd better be damned sure that their life is in danger...and how do you make damn sure?
This, admittedly, is a problem as old as weaponry itself, an old English poem from around the English Civil War has the phrase:

The blood that was spilt, sir, Hath gain'd all the gilt, sir; Thus have you seen me run my Sword up to the hilt, sir.
Probably no more then any other weapon. In a situation where you find yourself stumbling around in the dark (which i think stupid) with a knife, or club, is no different then a gun. Regardless of choice of weapon, you can't see who's in front of you. Mistakes can be made.


True. I'd wager that the ease of use to damage inflicted ratio is a bit askew with weapons other than knives or guns.

Not necessarily true. It depends on what you choose to load the gun with. Options include your standard "Ball" ammunition. Hollow points, which do as you describe, or Less than lethal ammunition. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhQCMQ4K3PY

Good point. :hmmm: I guess it also depends on where you get hit. Same with a knife.


Ok this is just my opinion, and i'm being very general here...
The thing about guns to an American, is that they are not just guns. Yes they are weapons, but they are a lot more then that. I could if i spent the time, write an essay on this, but being very brief (and i'll probably overlook something as a result), guns are symbolic of history, tradition, individualism, independence, self reliance, citizenship, and that most often overused word, freedom. All things greatly valued in our culture.

Yup, and someone who isn't an American will really struggle to understand this. I struggle, but I respect that, however I think that as time goes on, there is going to have to be a long hard look at how firearms interact with American society and vice versa, because society in itself has changed dramatically since the Second Amendment was drawn up. Does this mean that guns need to go? Not at all, but there is two great immobile forces locking horns here and eventually something is going to give.

Amazingly Maw Zedong may have said it best, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." The American people keeping and bearing arms is highly symbolic that ultimately the political power in this country rests within "We the people". (Or at least it should :shifty: ) Our country never had a Monarchy of any sort, and was established as a Constitutional Republic with Democratic tendencies. I think you may agree that symbolism can be a powerful thing, so to ask an American to give up their guns, is in fact, asking A LOT.

Mao may have been ruthlessly genocidal, but he was a shrewd person, he knew how power worked, how to get it, keep it, and exploit it.
The problem I think that America will find in the 21st century is that whilst the American people have political power in their guns, the government that they keep those guns to defend from has much bigger guns and much more power if it chooses to use it. Of course, if the entire populace rose up, then that would be something different, but we all know that nothing is ever unanimous.

When Charlton Heston (infamously in progressive circles) held up a reproduction musket and said, "from my cold dead hands", it' wasn't just a gun he holding up in the air, but an object that symbolizes many things valued.
http://woodgatesview.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/charlton-heston-cold-dead-hands1.jpg

YOU BLEW IT UP! No...wait...

I know that you are non-partisan Ducimus, and I respect you for that, but I still wonder how vocal the current crowds who fear the loss of their freedoms will be under a differently aligned President. Still, time will tell. :03:

[TheDarkWraith]

Having every one armed simply raises the bar of violence

That is your opinion and not fact. Take your gun hating views somewhere else.

[Oberon]

That is your opinion and not fact. Take your gun hating views somewhere else.

Why? Is the First Amendment outlawed in favour of the Second?

[TheDarkWraith]

Why? Is the First Amendment outlawed in favour of the Second?

Not at all. If you want to present facts instead of lies and opinions then I'd be happy to have a conversation with you otherwise go spew your hatred somewhere else.

For those of you gun haters how many of you served your country? My experience has been 99% of you haven't. I gave my country 6 years of my life. I'm almost convinced that if you had served your country you'd have a totally different view on guns

[bigd0311]

"For those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know"



USMC 8 yrs active, 4 yrs reserve, 5 yrs as a sheriff's deputy.


I carry a weapon because I can, because I'm a law abiding citizen, and because I've been extensively trained. I've carried a weapon for literally half my life. It's a tool.


The ability to defend yourself is a right. If you chose not to exercise that right, so be it. If overnight all firearms disappeared, however, that isn't going to make you safe. If you run into Brock Lesnar in a dark alley, he's just going to squeeze your neck until your head pops off. That's what firearms are for. Sam Colt's equalizer. I can only hope that you never have to defend yourself or your family.



That being said, if your carrying a weapon and you haven't received any training, (and I'm not talking about the 50 rounds you have to fire to qualify for a CCW at 15 feet max), you're doing yourself and everyone around you a great disservice.


This wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but rather everyone.


/end rant

[Rilder]

Not at all. If you want to present facts instead of lies and opinions then I'd be happy to have a conversation with you otherwise go spew your hatred somewhere else.

For those of you gun haters how many of you served your country? My experience has been 99% of you haven't. I gave my country 6 years of my life. I'm almost convinced that if you had served your country you'd have a totally different view on guns

I don't see how being a soldier for your chosen nation state change anything, this is a civilized society of people trying live their lives, not a warzone where the enemy is around every corner.

For me, I don't want a society where problems are solved with a gun, I want the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found and treated. A person does not commit violent acts for no reason and we should find the cultural, social, and psychological reasons behind the acts and eliminate them. A normal person doesn't commit acts of violence, just as someone who doesn't want for anything won't commit theft.

We need education, welfare, and healthcare, not guns and death. I don't care if that means paying a little bit extra taxes, its better then people dying.

[Jimbuna]

Cool heads everyone.

[TheDarkWraith]

For me, I don't want a society where problems are solved with a gun, I want the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found and treated

Who said the problems have to be solved with a gun? You are talking like an anti-gun person with those kind of comments. You choose not to have any part in guns, that is your right. Don't try and violate mine.

I carry because it's my right, if you choose not to exercise your rights then that is your choice. Don't go crying when you find yourself in a situation that has the possibility of a different outcome if you had simply chosen to exercise your rights.

I would like the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found also. Things are never going to get better until we get the money of politics, put term limits on all public servants, and most importantly fix the unequal distribution of wealth in the USA. More and better education is also needed in this country as it's going down the crapper faster and faster every year.

Don't see how being a solder has anything to do with it? That tells me you never have served your country. Are you scared?

I seek out people that are anti-gun. Why? To see why they are so anti-gun. The vast majority of them either recite Fox talking points and/or are scared of them because they've never held/used one. It's these that have never held/used one that I really want to connect with. I ask them to join me at the gun range so that they can see they are not a scary thing if handled correctly. A few decline because it's been so ingrained in their upbringing that guns are bad by their parents (shame on the parents!). Those that I do get to join me at the gun range end up having a great time. A few have even gone on to buy guns of their own. They then get their friends to join them at the gun range and it gets contagious. This is exactly what the anti-gun people hate and I love giving them the finger :smug:

[Nippelspanner]

I don't see how being a soldier for your chosen nation state change anything, this is a civilized society of people trying live their lives, not a warzone where the enemy is around every corner.

For me, I don't want a society where problems are solved with a gun, I want the underlying reasons behind criminal behavior to be found and treated. A person does not commit violent acts for no reason and we should find the cultural, social, and psychological reasons behind the acts and eliminate them. A normal person doesn't commit acts of violence, just as someone who doesn't want for anything won't commit theft.

We need education, welfare, and healthcare, not guns and death. I don't care if that means paying a little bit extra taxes, its better then people dying.
I wish more people would have your sense of reason. Some lines written down in this thread are... somewhat agitating.

When I see 'Murricans talk about "chains of oppression" only because a well-going, civilized foreign country has strict gun laws - and nearly no deaths a year related to guns - I really start to lose faith in humani... America. :-?

But the same kind of 'Murricans would probably tell me, again, to keep out of Murrica's business... on an open internet forum :rotfl2:

[Oberon]

myeah...I think this thread is starting to run its course and head back into rather familiar territory.

Ducimus, August, been good talking to you, but I think I'll bail out of this thread early, you both know my stance on gun control anyway. I'm neither for or against guns, I can see both sides point of view, so I will bow out here before even more people get infracted.

http://media.giphy.com/media/cUNsXlXK7HMUo/giphy.gif

http://media.giphy.com/media/JGF7ctowtLGak/giphy.gif

[Sailor Steve]

Oberon has a point. It started off well, but now it's turning into just another gun control argument. No reason now not to merge it with all the others.

[Madox58]

How odd a thread goes wild here in GT.
:hmmm:




:har:

[MH]

That is your opinion and not fact. Take your gun hating views somewhere else.

I dont hate guns.
Actually have no feeling toward them but all i can say is that i know how to use some.
Maybe the issue with some people is about them having feelings toward the guns and not the second amendment ?
That would explain a lot...
My opinion about carry - should be always concealed.
Don't understand this stupid laws you have .... you can leave your guns in the car or whatever ...its legal and dumb, on another hand the state tell you how to carry your guns.

[Armistead]

I dont hate guns.
Actually have no feeling toward them but all i can say is that i know how to use some.
Maybe the issue with some people is about them having feelings toward the guns and not the second amendment ?
That would explain a lot...
My opinion about carry - should be always concealed.
Don't understand this stupid laws you have .... you can leave your guns in the car or whatever ...its legal and dumb, on another hand the state tell you how to carry your guns.

Even states that allow guns, they're numerous places you can't carry your gun, govt. gun free zones and numerous private businesses have signs you can't bring your gun in, so people leave them in their car. Many states it's very hard to get a CCW, but allow open carry, so I agree the laws should be changed.

Sadly, they're many stories of shootings, some mass, where private businesses don't allow guns and people couldn't fight back because they had to leave their gun in their cars.

History has proven over and over, people that give up their guns to the govt often face tyranny and mad dictators..

[Platapus]

Unfortunately, in the US, the gun genies are out of many bottles.

The baddies already have guns and a continued source of guns. There is little the law can do to stop this.

I am not sure how it works in other countries, but in the US, criminals tend not to follow laws... that's what makes them criminals.

Until there is some sort of plan that would be effective in drastically cutting the number of criminals with guns and drastically cut off the continued supply of guns, gun limiting legislation will only affect the law-abiding gun owner.

What we really want is a program that will get the guns away from the criminals first and then perhaps start restricting gun ownership by law-abiding citizens. But in any case, go after the criminals first.

Unfortunately, what gun legislation does is affect the law-abiding citizen first in hopes that somehow, sometime, somewhere down the road eventually criminals will not be able to gain access to guns. That is the wrong order.

Criminals love gun legislation for this very reason... because it cuts down on the law-abiding citizen's access to guns while having very little impact on law-breaking citizen's access to guns.

As long as criminals have access to guns, law-abiding citizens will not want to lose their ability to defend themselves.

The inconvenient truth is that criminals already have illegal ways of obtaining guns. That is just a result of our history.

Any regulation that affects the legal ways of obtaining guns is not going to be effective in regulating the illegal ways of obtaining guns.

One suggestion that I am fully aware of is the idea that if someone uses a gun in the commission of a crime that there will be an automatic 10 year sentence which is separate from, but must be served consecutively to any other sentence; is ineligible for parole during that 10 year sentence; and can't be plea-bargained away. No exceptions... No exceptions!

That type of "red-hot stove" type of action-punishment schema, I feel will be a good first step.

[Ducimus]

The problem I think that America will find in the 21st century is that whilst the American people have political power in their guns, the government that they keep those guns to defend from has much bigger guns and much more power if it chooses to use it. Of course, if the entire populace rose up, then that would be something different, but we all know that nothing is ever unanimous.

Well, i did say that keeping and bearing of arms by the citizenry is highly symbolic.


I know that you are non-partisan Ducimus, and I respect you for that, but I still wonder how vocal the current crowds who fear the loss of their freedoms will be under a differently aligned President. Still, time will tell. :03:

I find my "political identity" is something in flux. For awhile I was thinking Libertarian, however many libertarian philosophies i disagree with. Right along with many Democrat and Republican philosophies. At this point, about the only thing I can agree with is the US constitution. I really care for little else. So perhaps, a "Constitutionalist" is the label that best fits me.

As for how vocal people will be about their fear of loss of freedoms under a differently aligned president, I don't think, or at least I hope, alignment is no longer the issue.

In my view it's not what they say, or by what party they align with, but by what they DO. Since 911 our government has been given a blank check to do what they like in the name of public safety; and professional politicians have taken FULL advantage of it. We are at a point where our government has legislated itself to be too big, too overbearing, and too intrusive, regardless of party affiliation; with no signs of it letting up. I believe we are well on our way to becoming a police state, some would argue we already are.

Why? Is the First Amendment outlawed in favour of the Second?
Each and every amendment listed in the Bill of Rights is important. Each having equal weight, and the sum of the whole is an interwoven tapestry. That said, some would argue that without the second, none of the others would be possible.

[gimpy117]

I'm just not in the position to drop a couple hundred on a license. I plan too. Have a sweet little Bersa .380 thunder