I Have Some Questions and Probably Some War Crimes.

[Leon West]

Hey guys.

So, here I go with some more random and probably stupid questions.

I just started a new career in TMO 2.5 at the chosen start of "Beginning of 1942" and was given command of the USS Snapper, a Salmon Class submarine on January 2nd, 1942. I started my patrol on January 5th, and was given a search and destroy in the "Pasture" sector around Formosa, which we all know is laden with Japanese traffic.

By the 10th (I think, I'm guessing at this point) I found myself in Mindaro Strait about to enter the Sulu (or is it Celebes Sea? Yay me and Geography) when my watch reported a lone, Japanese merchant.

The setup was just too beautiful. The ship was a small to medium sized freighter, completely unescorted, and while were were caught on the surface in broad daylight, there was a slight layer of fog. I ordered the boat to periscope depth, and barely had to adjust course. Essentially, the freighter was going to cross right in front of our noses. I ran at ahead 2/3 submerged for a few minutes to close the gap, and eventually I was able to call the engines to full stop. At 800 yards the freighter was right in the perfect firing position. I ordered 3 tubes opened, and fired 2 torpedoes. Luckily (and very surprisingly!) the fish ran true and both ripped into the merchant. The first stopped her and was probably a mortal wound, the second produced quite the fireworks show, with secondary and tertiary explosions almost lifting the ship out of the water.

The Japanese merchant went down, a Haruka Maru at 1,000+ tons. Quite the way to start a career and honestly my best to date ambush of an enemy vessel.

I was able to surface and I spotted a life raft of the poor stricken vessel's sailors. However, between them and me was the now burning and sinking wreckage of the freighter.

And here's where I started thinking. In real life, wouldn't the captain of the Snapper in this situation be required to go and rescue said survivors? In order for me to do so, I would've had to make quite the manuevers to avoid the sinking wreckage. I was also in very bright daylight, and though only in the Mindaro Strait, I was afraid of air cover. I know there probably isn't a feature in SH4 to rescue anyone aside from downed allied airmen, but I was still curious about the situation, and actually felt bad just sailing away like nothing had happened.

And finally, my second question. This was, in all the short time I've played SH4 my best ambush attack. During the ambush, I basically sat engines off in the water and let the merchant sail into me. In real life, could a world war 2 era sub actually maintain depth without its engines working? I believe I have read that depth keeping in that sort of situation would be impossible, but I'll be the first to admit I don't know as much as most of everyone here about submarines.

Thanks in advance!

[les green01]

no you you need a little speed going to keep dept,no you can only rescue allied airmen japanese culture if one was capture it bought great shame to family and friends

[TorpX]

Hello Captain!

In real life, wouldn't the captain of the Snapper in this situation be required to go and rescue said survivors?

No. Captains and crews were expected to prosecute the war, so mission and the safety of the boat came first. Sometimes, one or two survivors were picked up (usually for intelligence purposes), but this would not be attempted under dangerous circumstances. There really wasn't much extra space in the boats anyway.

In real life, could a world war 2 era sub actually maintain depth without its engines working? I believe I have read that depth keeping in that sort of situation would be impossible ...

You're quite right about the need to keep moving. Depth control is accomplished by use of the dive planes, and they require the flow of water to do their job. If the sub was motionless, you would lose both steerage and depth control. Usually, a sub making an attack would be moving 3 to 4 knots (for a periscope approach). Too little, and the sub might broach after torpedoes were launched, too much, and the periscope would vibrate and compromise their view.

Don't worry about not knowing much about submarines. This game tends to be addictive, and many become highly knowledgeable about submarines. :salute:

[Cybermat47]

And here's where I started thinking. In real life, wouldn't the captain of the Snapper in this situation be required to go and rescue said survivors?

No. In real life, you'd be given the Bronze star for machine gunning them. I'm not making that up, that actually happened.

[Sniper297]

I think two of your questions have been answered - there was so little space inside a sub that lower ranked crewmen had to "hot bunk", two men slept in the same bunk at different times. Firing torpedoes helped, as the spares were loaded into the tubes it made more room to fold down extra bunks. But even without the danger of stopping to pick up survivors (many surface warships left their comrades to drown rather than risking a torpedo attack by stopping), there just wasn't room inside for more that a few survivors - and if they were enemy they would have to be guarded, making extra work and more danger.

As for the attack itself;

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=124231

That's an old tutorial so some of the pics are missing, but the basics of a submarine attack is to plot where the enemy is going - the target track. If the target is a long way off you don't head toward him on a constant pursuit curve, you plot his track and head directly for the track, do whatever it takes to get in front of him and let him come to you. Distance to the track is the key element of the approach so that's the very first thing with any new contact, plot his course and start planning how to arrive 1000 yards off the track, facing the track at a 90 degree angle. WWII subs were faster on the surface, so if he's going away from you don't chase him - plot his track then do an end-around, running at high speed on the surface staying 6000 to 8000 yards away where you can see him but he can't see you. The idea is to get to the firing point (1000 yards off the track) 6000 to 8000 yards ahead of him without being seen, then pull the plug and wait. The whole purpose of a submarine is a sneak attack on an unsuspecting target, so being near his track at periscope depth before he arrives eliminates most of the problems of trying to hit him. Anyone should be able to hit the broad side of a ship with a torpedo from 1000 yards, so the whole plan of the approach should be dedicated to getting into that position unseen.

[Sailor Steve]

No. In real life, you'd be given the Bronze star for machine gunning them. I'm not making that up, that actually happened.
[Citation Needed]

[Aktungbby]

In May 1942 the Japanese began transferring POWs by sea. Similar to treatment on the Bataan Death March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March), prisoners were often crammed into cargo holds with little air, food or water for journeys that would last weeks. Many died due to asphyxia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphyxia), starvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation) or dysentery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysentery). Some POWs became delirious and unresponsive in their environment of heat, humidity and lack of oxygen, food, and water. These unmarked prisoner transports were targeted as enemy ships by Allied submarines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine) and aircraft.
More than 20,000 Allied POWs died at sea when the transport ships carrying them were attacked by Allied submarines and aircraft. Although Allied headquarters often knew of the presence of POWs through radio interception and code breaking, the ships were sunk because interdiction of critical strategic materials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_material) was more important than the deaths of prisoners-of-war.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_ship#cite_note-3)
Lisbon Maru[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hell_ship&action=edit&section=3)]

Lisbon Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Maru) was carrying 2,000 British POWs from Hong Kong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong) to Japan in appalling conditions when torpedoed by USS Grouper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Grouper_(SS-214)) on 1 October 1942. 800 POWs died when the ship sank the following day. Many were shot or otherwise killed by the ship's Japanese guards.
Rakuyo Maru[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hell_ship&action=edit&section=4)]

Rakuyo Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Rakuyo_Maru) was torpedoed 12 September 1944 by USS Sealion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sealion_(SS-315)) which later realized the ship carried Allied POWs. Footage of some of the survivors subsequently being picked up by the submarine is available here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFB4bZUJn6A)
Suez Maru[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hell_ship&action=edit&section=5)]

Suez Maru was a 4,645-ton freighter with passenger accom­modation. She sailed on 25 November 1943 with 548 POW (415 British and 133 Dutch) from Ambon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambon,_Maluku) bound for Surabaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surabaya). The POWs were all sick men from the work-camps on the Moluccas and Ambon. Twenty were stretcher cases. On 29 November 1943 the ship was torpedoed by USS Bonefish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Bonefish) near Kangean Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangean_Island) east of Madoera Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madura_Island). Most of the POWs drowned in the holds of the ship. Those who escaped from the holds and left the ship were shot by the Japanese. There were no survivors.
Shinyo Maru[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hell_ship&action=edit&section=6)]

Shinyo Maru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinyo_Maru) was attacked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinyo_Maru_Incident) by the submarine USS Paddle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Paddle) on 7 September 1944. Two torpedo hits sank the ship and killed several hundred US, Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) and Filipino servicemen. Japanese guarding the prisoners opened fire on them while they were trying to abandon ship or swim to the nearby island of Mindanao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindanao). 47 Japanese and 687 Allied POWs were killed. [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_ship#cite_note-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_ship#cite_note-5)
Junyō Maru[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hell_ship&action=edit&section=7)]

The 5,065-ton tramp steamer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp_steamer) Junyo Maru sailed from Batavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta) (Tandjoeng Priok) on 16 September 1944 with about 4,200 romusha slave labourers and 2,300 POWs aboard. These Dutch POWs included 1,600 from the 10th Battalion camp and 700 from the Kampong Makassar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampong_Makassar) camp. This 23rd transport of POWs from Java was called Java Party 23. Java Party 23 included about 6,500 men bound for Padang on the west coast of Sumatra to work on the Sumatra railway (Mid-Sumatra).
On 18 September 1944 the ship was 15 miles off the west coast of Sumatra near Benkoelen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengkulu) when HMS Tradewind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tradewind) hit her with two torpedoes, one in the bow and one in the stern. About 4,000 romushas and 1,626 POWs died when the ship sank in 20 minutes. About 200 romushas and 674 POWs were rescued by Japanese ships and taken to the Prison in Padang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padang), where eight prisoners died.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_ship#cite_note-6) [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_ship#cite_note-7) In reality, no skipper of a US submarine could handle the number of POW involved in the above examples of Maru sinkings; and to do so would have endangered the sub crews just from the contagion: typhus and dengue alone, borne by the POWs. In the worst sense, a military decision regarding the 'expendability' of these men was made, and the decision to knowingly sink the vessels was still made. When a ship is sinking, the last man out ahead of the rising water closes the hatch...on those unfortunates still on the ladder; SOP. The ship comes first...always.

[Dread Knot]

And here's where I started thinking. In real life, wouldn't the captain of the Snapper in this situation be required to go and rescue said survivors? In order for me to do so, I would've had to make quite the manuevers to avoid the sinking wreckage. I was also in very bright daylight, and though only in the Mindaro Strait, I was afraid of air cover. I know there probably isn't a feature in SH4 to rescue anyone aside from downed allied airmen, but I was still curious about the situation, and actually felt bad just sailing away like nothing had happened.



Let's say in real life in 1942, the ship sinks slowly and there are several hundred Japanese survivors in boats or in the water. Even if you are the most humane of skippers, where would you put them? About the best you could do would be to provide some provisions, water and directions to land, but if some fanatic opens fire with a pistol as you approach because he thinks you are about to run them down that option is out.

Sadly, a really vicious cycle developed in the Pacific War in which the Japanese reluctance to surrender often meshed horrifically with Allied antipathy toward taking prisoners. Most Japanese personnel were told that they would be killed or tortured if they fell into Allied hands and, as a consequence, most of those faced with defeat on the battlefield fought to the death or committed suicide. Combine this with the racial hatred and disdain many Allied combatants had toward the Japanese and it's hardly a wonder that there were so few Japanese POWs.

What's really tragic is that there were many Chinese, Filipino, Thai, and Indonesian sailors forcibly impressed into the service of the Japanese Merchant Marine who would have been happy to receive help, but in the confused circumstances of war probably perished anyway.

[Sailor Steve]

:sign_yeah:

Thanks for such a good, precise explanation of the situation.

[merc4ulfate]

A submarine was capable of doubling it occupancy if needed but that was about it.

The Redfin SS-272 took 8 crewmen of the sunk Flier SS-250 and 9 other one being a women and two small children and transported them to safety off of Palawan Island.

The Dace SS-247 rescued the entire crew of the Darter SS-227 in September 1944 after the Darter ran aground and had to be scuttled. The Dace spent two weeks with both crews aboard before they disembarked at Fremantle. Total number of souls on board during the two weeks, 165.

You can read the Captains official report from the Dace here:

http://issuu.com/hnsa/docs/ss-247_dace_part1
Page 21 if your scrolling down and page 33 on the actual documents if you start reading from 23, October 1944. This is the attack report as well as the occurrences surrounding the grounding and recuse of the Darter's crew.

The entire report of the Dace's patrols has four parts.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Citation Needed]

I do not recall if the Wahoo was award a citation but according to the Captain's report there were life boats and motor launches in the water after an attack on a transport and he opened fire on the largest one. He reported the men jumped over the side to escape but in another boat they fired in return with small caliber weapons. It was her third patrol. The Wahoo killed 195 Indian POW's from the 2nd Battalion, 16th Punjab Regiment, plus escorting forces from the 26th Field Ordnance Depot. Some of those death were from the torpedo strike while others were from machine gun and 4" fire on the lifeboats after sinking a Transport ship.

http://issuu.com/hnsa/docs/ss-238_wahoo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Wahoo_(SS-238)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

[Leon West]

Wow! I got tons of replies, and all contain huge wealths of information! I can't thank you all enough. I work nights, so I was just now able to log on. Needless to say I was quite surprised.

Thank you again everyone!

@Aktungbby: I knew of only one scenario when a POW transport was struck, and it never occurred to me how often it must have happened. It only makes sense that there were more incidents like that. Nevertheless, it does not make that easier to accept. That is definitely one of the reasons war is so damn ugly.

@Sniper297: Thank you for the link to some awesome information. I have some very basic knowledge on plotting intercepts (I am certainly not a master) and I was able to "ambush" this lone merchant by doing a slight course adjustment, as he was ahead of me and closing in on me. Like you suggested, I was able to bring myself within 800 yards of him submerged by just sailing towards where he was going to be. This one just happened to work perfectly for me, and that is a rarity. That thread is certainly worth re-reading and I'll definitely be going over it again. Thank you!

I appreciate all the information everyone provided. My questions have certainly been answered. You guys rock. :rock: :salute: