History must never repeat itself

[Jimbuna]

Today, January 27, 2014, the largest ever delegation of Knesset members are convening abroad, on the grounds of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camps, together with Holocaust survivors, for a historic gathering on combating anti-Semitism.

This symbolic parliament session is very significant — meeting just a few meters away from the gas chambers where millions of Jews were once murdered.

The event is being held on International Holocaust Remembrance Day, a memorial day in honor of the six million Jews who perished during the Holocaust. 2014 will also mark the 69th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camps by the Soviet Army and Allied troops.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/holocaust--survivor-stories-112304473.html#BcqP8t

WARNING If you want to post comments regarding the topic, fine but maintain a level of respectability and decency, stay within the forum rules.....otherwise, don't bother.

[Schroeder]

The event is being held on International Holocaust Remembrance Day, a memorial day in honor of the six million Jews who perished during the Holocaust.
I mean no disrespect but the above statement is where they are losing me. What about the other victims of the Holocaust? What about the 2 million Gypsies, the homosexuals and opponents of the regime? Why is it always just about the Jews and no one else? If we want to remember then we should remember them all and not just some.:yep:

[Oberon]

I predict an Alex, I predict an Alex... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU4ke34dKWo)

Anyway, it is sadly a bit late to stop history repeating itself, genocide is a popular topic for many countries these days, and despite the 'Never Again' after WWII, there's been many genocides that have gone past with nary a whisper from the victors of the Second World War, the Cultural Revolution, Cambodia, Rwanda, Darfur.

Unfortunately mass killing and human nature do seem to go hand in hand, particularly when it comes to inflaming emotions against a particular group of people, as threads on here have shown, it's pretty easy to get the torch bearers out.

[Skybird]

In German:

http://www.welt.de/kultur/article124251623/Auschwitz-ist-heute-ein-Disneyland-des-Todes.html

The author is of Polish-Jewish descent himself. Good to keep this on mind when reading this.

He has said on an earlier occasion two of three years ago that the museum at Auschwitz is so normal a tourist attraction by now and that so good money is made with selling souvenirs in the nearby city, that the facility should be closed and the whole perimeter should be plowed under. He also questioned whether we have any right to expect the young to feel responsible in that we expect them to show the same ammount of heavy burden and sadness over things that ended more than half a century before they even were born, when these young people are not linked to these events at all and have their very own contemporary problems that really give them their very own share to shoulder.

But, he pointed out, in case of shutting down Auschwitz, he would miss the good food they serve in the museum's restaurant.

In this article now he points out that even those visitors who are impressed by the sights in the museum, usually completely fail to get the link to modern, contemporary events of massacres and genocides, next: that demanding that Auschwitz should neve rhappen again is as meaningful a statement like that the Titanic should never sink again, and finally that the unique status attributed to the holocaust helps today's massacres to get away with their bloddshed becasue evertyhing below the levbel of the holocaust by that reduced progfile holds the danger of being taken for something slightly more acceptable. He closes with the philosopher Thomas Lessing's remark that "history is nothing else than attributing a meaning to the meaningless."

This Knesset trip to Poland will do nothing to make Western nations reconsider their marshmallow-soft approach to the Iranian challenge, and it will not chnage anything in the European and American anti-Israeli bias on the issue of the Palestinian Arabs.

[Oberon]

the issue of the Palestinian Arabs.

At the risk of taking this thread in another direction, what is it that makes the situation of the Palestinian Arabs not a genocide, and Iranian intentions to Israel a potential genocide? It all seems a bit stones in glass houses to me, to be honest. I'm aware that Israels neighbours would not hesitate to burn it to the ground, but there is no high ground in a debate about the Israel/Palestine issue, and if there is it has already got artillery on it.

[Alex]

Never too late to do something good nor to change your mind on what is right and wrong, eh.


http://b8.uk.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/1/35953731EhJ.jpg

[NeonSamurai]

I always love the media and the holocaust, particularly when it comes to Auschwitz-Birkenau. First of all "millions" didn't die at Auchwitz-Birkenau. Modern estimates put the total deaths at 1.2 million, with about 960,000 of the deaths being Jewish. The gas chambers were probably responsible for 60-80% of the killings, with the rest due to being worked to death, disease, experiments, and other forms of torture and execution. Auschwitz was partially a death camp, and mostly a slave labor camp.

The real killing machines were the Aktion Reinhard camps. Which were tiny little camps with the sole purpose of eradication (which is why they were so tiny). Treblinka by some estimates is believed to have killed more people then all of Auschwitz. A number of researchers and recent archeological investigations suggest we are actually seriously underestimating the numbers at over 2 million right now.

The rest of the six million can be attributed to the Einsatzgruppen, the slave labor camps like Mittelbau-Dora, concentration camps, etc.

As for the frequent forgetting of the other groups, well a lot of people in Europe still hate the Roma and consider them subhuman, same for homosexuals (and the numbers were not very high for that group). People like to forget the disabled as well (one of the first victims for mass execution). All the others killed were either insignificant by proportion, or POWs which is another subject. Out of the others, the Roma have as much claim as the Jews having suffered proportionately similar losses.

I'm not going to touch the Palestinian topic, as it is frequently used as a red herring in holocaust discussions, and it bluntly does not meet the criteria for genocide.

[Alex]

Neon, I do not agree with everything you said (and we better not talk about this subject in depth in here, so I won't mention which of your statements I disagree with), but I like the critical aspect of your point of view overall.

I'm not going to touch the Palestinian topic, as it is frequently used as a red herring in holocaust discussions, and it bluntly does not meet the criteria for genocide.

Very well said, Sir. The problem is : not everyone is familiar with this subject, or problem. For those who're not, let's put it another way :

http://b8.uk.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/7/35954677qPE.jpg

[MH]

The author is of Polish-Jewish descent himself. Good to keep this on mind when reading this.



..............................




He the right to have his opinion - nothing more.

As it seems many disagree with him.

So some profit from it ..well... if you will look hard enough you will find out that people profit almost from anything.

question is why you look.



I always love the media and the holocaust, particularly when it comes to Auschwitz-Birkenau. First of all "millions" didn't die at Auchwitz-Birkenau. Modern estimates put the total deaths at 1.2 million, with about 960,000 of the deaths being Jewish. The gas chambers were probably responsible for 60-80% of the killings, with the rest due to being worked to death, disease, experiments, and other forms of torture and execution. Auschwitz was partially a death camp, and mostly a slave labor camp.





I have no interest in those modern estimates because they have no impotence for this topic.

It may be important for historical record.

You just spiting hair here.:)

It does not change the fact that Auschwitz is lets say....the standing symbol for the holocaust.

http://b8.uk.icdn.ru/c/compdrag/1/35953731EhJ.jpg


I totally agree with you Alex.:03:
...But its sort of like saying...to simplify things... no Poland no world war two.
As usual you got it backwards.:haha:

So Jews have this voodoo party to remember holocaust because we love to be miserable and make some moneys of it.
Who cares ...right?..take it easy.

BW
Gypsies and the others are invited as well if can afford the tickets to this controversial party.

[Aktungbby]

Thomas Lessing's remark that "history is nothing else than attributing a meaning to the meaningless."

Today is in fact the liberation date of Auschwitz-Birkenau, a fact not lost on the Knesset in their selection of the site, and not inappropriately if my great grandmother has any thing to say about it. She immigrated at the turn of the century and married a Methodist!? in the temple in Brooklyn! The rest of the Koenigs we don't know about...Also of note is that on this date 60 nations signed an accord to ban orbiting nuclear weapons..one wonders at the distinction as we revolve around the sun; the globe IS the orbiting nuclear weapon!:doh: Throw in the one recent weekend in Rawanda where 700,000+ were killed with machetes-no need for technology-and it is evident that the holocaust beast is alive and well. Human trafficking is alive and well and religious intolerance is alive and well. I'm glad I'm old 'cause I suspect strongly that what we call the holocaust now, looking back, ain't gonna be it ; that is still to come. Well, at least we nearly eradicated polio.:up:

[Catfish]

I agree we will always have to remember this.


That said, not to belittle Hitler or divert from this date of today, but what about Stalin and him killing some millions of jews ?
Or the Polish operatrion, in 1937 ?
He also killed tens of millions of others of course, but i have seldom heard any russian 'president' mention this, let alone his former allies.

[Aktungbby]

He also killed tens of millions of others of course, but i have seldom heard any russian 'president' mention this, let alone his former allies. Nothing changes: "VAE VICTUS"-Brennus 387 BC:

A Goth or Celt leader who once conquered Rome even though being outnumbered, imortalized the Latin word meaning “woe unto the conquered” or “suffering to the conquered,” Raiding Celtic tribes under the leadership of Brennus ravage Rome and occupy the city for three months. Offended by the dirty conditions of the city they demand a ransome to leave the Romans alone. Brennus demands his weight in gold and when the Romans complain that the scales they are using are innaccurate he throws his sword on the scales to be weighed as well with the cry "VAE VICTUS" - (Woe to the Vanquished). In short, the scales of historic justice are unbalanced and found wanting...most of the time and "history is written by the winners"-Bonaparte...

[BossMark]

Went to Krakow just over 4 years ago and we went Auschwitz-Birkenau 6 of us walked into the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camps and for just over 3 and a half hours not one of spoke a single word :nope: very very sad indeed, but I was glad that I went just to see it for myself.

[Betonov]

People died in camps because of some nutjob idiotic ideology by lunatics that had a harder time getting laid than me. Does it matter if one group is remembered more than the other. I'm sure the dead don't see any difference.

And as for the jew conspiracies ?? People who think something so stupid exist need to get a job to get their minds doing something productive

And Israel ?? Absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust. Their treatment of Palestinians is brutal, but has to do nothing with WW2.

[MH]

Their treatment of Palestinians can be comparable, but has to do nothing with WW2.

No it not...on no level.

[the_tyrant]

Oh god, this got derailed quite quickly didn't it

[Betonov]

No it not...on no level.

You're right. I better change that. Still brutality is brutality

[Jimbuna]

Oh god, this got derailed quite quickly didn't it

When?

Where?

[MH]

You're right. I better change that. Still brutality is brutality

Brutality?
Maintaining security with military may lead to it in some cases.
Its complicated.


Brutality as policy
- there is no such thing at least not since the 90s.
At the beginning of the Palestinian uprising (about 1987)things had been a bit different yet far cry from what some implay.
this policy led to similar criticism in Israel as abroad and possibly is one of the reasons which led to talks with PLO.
Israel could not maintain and did not want to maintain it.

I think Tyrant is right here...but it was so obvious it would happen.:haha:

Its interesting though how some people are obsessed with Palestinian Israeli conflict while real genocide is happening few hundreds kilometers from here yet all you can see is fascinating tanks battle videos about it.
Go figure...maybe israel is doing it wrong.:doh:

[Skybird]

People forget that "genoicde" has a specific definition that is set in some international law, a definition that is so specific that if governments agree to the use of the term they are bound by international law to react to it. Genocide is the systematic effort of not only trying to wipe out the living members of a race or ethnically defined group, but also to wipe out their tradition and culture defining their identity. It is a mass killing of a population plus the cleansing of the history books and the deletion of a cultural identity.

That is why it is so absurd to compare the events in the Ukraine or the Palestinian territories as "genocide", as if they would in any way compare to the sclae and intention of the Nazi's holocaust.

Nobody in the Ukraine tries to wipe out the Ukrainian population and to clean the history books of the Ukrainian history and identity.

Nobody in Israel tries to massmurder all Palestinians - and it even is that a separate Palestinian ethnicity or tradition in the modern Palestinians' understanding or claim never exiosted. The Palestinians were always a very mixed breed, but no separate tribe or ethnicity, and long ago Hebrews and others alos were part of the "Palestinian" group. What today is called "the Palestinians", is simply Arab people of normal Arab descent from all of the Arab world, whose ancestors for the most had moved to "Palestine" and beside the "genocide" Israel committing on them showed to be extremely fertile and multiply the population size by several factors in less than half a hundred years.

Ukraine a genocide? Israel and Palestine, a genocide? Gimme a drink, and make it a strong one.

Rwanda - that qualifies as genocide. The hunting down of Christians and cleaning of whole countrysides in Somalia and by the Muslim militias - that is gencoide. The uncountable tribal wars in Africa, and Congo especially - that are genocides. Here it is about wiping out all people of a given tribal/ethnic descent, and killing their cultural history and tradition, so that it or any survivors of the massacres could never live up again and become a living identity.

It is a ridiculing of the Nazi's crimes to compare their holocaust against the Jews with the deaths in a civil unrest in the Ukraine, or the struggle for land control and state security in the former Roman province of Judea.

So, let's be more hesitent to use the term "genocide".

[Tchocky]

What Skybird said.




http://www.luekensliquors.com/images/Blue-Moon-Bee.jpg

[mapuc]

@Skybird you forgot a few things

1. The Nazis did not win the war, what if they did?

2. How would the outcome of this Endlösung if Germany had won the war.

As I see it, they couldn't have committed genocide because they hadn't the time to do so. On the other hand if they had time to it, they would indeed have committed genocide on the Jews(in Germany and in the occupied countries)

I do say the same as Jim, we must NEVER forget and we shall do anything we can to prevent this to happen again.

Markus

[NeonSamurai]

Neon, I do not agree with everything you said (and we better not talk about this subject in depth in here, so I won't mention which of your statements I disagree with), but I like the critical aspect of your point of view overall.

Very well said, Sir. The problem is : not everyone is familiar with this subject, or problem. For those who're not, let's put it another way :


I already know which statements you disagree with. My only interest is to offer the unbiased truth to the best of my ability. Palestine is frequently used as a red herring by holocaust deniers for a variety of purposes including claiming that it is another episode of genocide. Skybird covered already why it is not (not by a long shot), so I will not waste further words.

I have no interest in those modern estimates because they have no impotence for this topic.

It may be important for historical record.

You just spiting hair here.:)

It does not change the fact that Auschwitz is lets say....the standing symbol for the holocaust.

Yes Auschwitz is the standing symbol, and unimaginable things happened there. But the numbers and the details are important, as those that deny and convince others of what they speak, play with and exploit the vargarities. The problem is the public does not have any real understanding of the holocaust, it is unimaginable for many, and this is what deniers prey on. They will twist and obfuscate facts, offer testimony from supposed 'experts', cherry pick facts and arguments, and so on.

To combat this, those that do know this subject matter intimately (I unfortunately do know this subject intimately) need to offer corrections when false statements are given, and refute the deniers claims with hard evidence and sound logic. It probably will not change the opinion of the denier, but it may clarify some aspects for the observers.

People forget that "genoicde" has a specific definition that is set in some international law, a definition that is so specific that if governments agree to the use of the term they are bound by international law to react to it. Genocide is the systematic effort of not only trying to wipe out the living members of a race or ethnically defined group, but also to wipe out their tradition and culture defining their identity. It is a mass killing of a population plus the cleansing of the history books and the deletion of a cultural identity.

<snip for brevity>

So, let's be more hesitent to use the term "genocide".

That is entirely correct.

@Skybird you forgot a few things

1. The Nazis did not win the war, what if they did?

2. How would the outcome of this Endlösung if Germany had won the war.

The Nazi's would have finished the final solution with the Jews, then move on to the next groups of subhumans and so on until only pure Aryans remained. Nuclear war might happen with the US. Who knows what else.

As I see it, they couldn't have committed genocide because they hadn't the time to do so. On the other hand if they had time to it, they would indeed have committed genocide on the Jews(in Germany and in the occupied countries)

I do say the same as Jim, we must NEVER forget and we shall do anything we can to prevent this to happen again.

Markus

They did have the time, and they wasted an incredible amount of resources and manpower doing it (I would consider it a factor in Germany losing the war).

If you like, I can offer you many different academically reputable resources on the Holocaust, and/or I can answer questions. I would warn you though, delving deep into the holocaust can be soul crushing. I cannot think of more black and horrific material (and professionally I work with complex trauma survivors who have survived things you wouldn't want to imagine). Most people don't know much about the holocaust, because they really do not want to know the finer details. I don't blame them.

[Skybird]

@Skybird you forgot a few things

1. The Nazis did not win the war, what if they did?

2. How would the outcome of this Endlösung if Germany had won the war.

As I see it, they couldn't have committed genocide

6 million dead, a clear plan and intention to clean Europe of Jewish culture and life, and I do not know how many Jewish people being displaced and made to flee - not good enough for you to call that genocide?

If that is no genocide, then the term is meaningless.

You better think it over.

[Alex]

I already know which statements you disagree with. My only interest is to offer the unbiased truth to the best of my ability. Palestine is frequently used as a red herring by holocaust deniers for a variety of purposes including claiming that it is another episode of genocide. Skybird covered already why it is not (not by a long shot), so I will not waste further words.

Believe it or not...
Although I disagree with most of Skybird's comments when it comes to the 6.000.000numberohBOWDOWNANDCRYEVERYBODYGermanywass uchaterrificthingduringWW2 theory... I like to read his posts. And I say it again : I disagree with most of what he says still. Why do I like his posts ? Well, everyone knows the man is rather well-informed, and got some enlightened ways to approach some complex issues, plus let's say quite a few of his posts show quite some will to... Well, to spread some peaceful messages here and there (although that tends not to be the case when it comes to your actual enemies that are supposed to be everyone's worst enemies following the result of WW2, hehe), so to be accepted and kind of forgiven just for being kind of German-very-unfortunately-I'm-sorry-for-that, LOL. Well, one gets to think that way particularly when he was born in Germany in the fifties/sixties, and was ********** force-fed with that propaganda coming from those who won the war as it was just won.

And when it comes to "those who won the war". Here I wish to let you know I definitely make a difference between citizen and their country/elites : like I'm speaking that way about those who won the war, but that doesn't mean I hate you because you're living in the united states of America or whatever. You've just got to eat that stuff yourself morning, noon and night too so that makes you a very decent and obedient pro-american pro-war pro-capitalist puppet (and here I need to say again there's no hate nor scorn in that, you absolutely don't need to feel any kind of disregard from myself here : I'm just speaking about the way everyone is raised in your country following the average educational background in western countries), so average people react that way when it comes to that horrible genocide even though their own family didn't suffer from it (thanks go to Hollywood)... So horrible it's no more a so-called genocide, but it's got its own name in the 70s (a name that wasn't even mentioned at the Nuremberg trials), just to make it more unique to the point everybody refers to that event as they would to a religion. If you translate that hebrew word I won't mention into arabic language, what do you get ? Nakba. Cough cough cough cough cough. Cough.

I won't burden anyone with that topic and talk about it in great length. Got enough infractions so far in here, and if people are happy with "what must never be forgotten in order never to repeat itself", it's good for them. So we won't be speaking about the help Zionists got from Nazi Germany entailing the mass transfer of tens of thousands of German Jews to Palestine, that lasted from 1933 to the first couple of years of WW2. But you need to keep something in mind : what is called the duty of remembrance, the obligation to remember, or duty never to forget definitely is selective. It conveys a political message.

[MH]

Nakba. Cough cough cough cough cough. Cough

Stop smoking whatever you do.
OOOOh....you throw the magical words...you know the hidden things lol

You know what nakba actually means and what it stands for?:doh:

Zionists got from Nazi Germany entailing the mass transfer of tens of thousands of German Jews to Palestine,

So what?
Do you know in what context it was done?

Having no common sense but holding some some controversial opinions does not make you enlightened.
I agree many people think it does ....oh yes you stand out too lol.

[Tchocky]

No, dude. He clearly said we wouldn't be talking about that.


:roll:

[Oberon]

Nakba. Cough cough cough cough cough. Cough.

Or NAMBLA.

[NeonSamurai]

Believe it or not...
Although I disagree with most of Skybird's comments when it comes to the 6.000.000numberohBOWDOWNANDCRYEVERYBODYGermanywass uchaterrificthingduringWW2 theory...

Sadly the six million figure is not fantasy or exaggeration. It may be off, it may be lower, but it also may be higher. That number is about the mid point of most evidence based estimates.

I know it is a figure that is hard to imagine or believe. I had difficulty with it too when I first started doing research into the subject. I think one of the most interesting researchers in this field is Jean-Claude Pressac. The reason is he actually came from the denial camp. He was part of Robert Faurisson's clique before he was forced to make a complete reversal in his position due his extensive research at Auschwitz. As he put it "I nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair". He is an honest researcher, in that he went where the evidence took him

The current numbers are also not based on propaganda. The propaganda numbers were all over the place, from a couple of million to well over 10 million. The original claims at Auschwitz by the Communists for example was 4 million people murdered, which was utterly absurd. Modern estimations are based on more solid evidence, such as the differences in census populations before and after the war, the use of German records where they survive (The Nazi's tried very hard to eradicate most of the evidence, but they failed to get everything, such as train schedules that had head counts), or archeological evidence (I could link a really gruesome archeological survey that was done at one of the Aktion Reinhard camps if you like).

A lot of other things have been done away with by researchers since the end of the war, as they were shown not to be true (there was a tiny bit of truth to this story, there was a lab where they did experiment in making soap from human fat). For example the one about soap being made from Jewish body tissue. Some are also highly suspect, such as some of the stories about Ilse Koch (AKA the b**** of buchenwald) and the lamps made of tattooed human skin. Corrections are made when actual errors are discovered.

There is also a mountain of evidence of what happened, everything from plans of the camps, different records and messages, survivor testimony (some of which is rather inaccurate, but not very surprisingly), the testimony of camp guards, several of whom do not have the slightest regret for their involvement, and the physical evidence that still remains to this day.

And when it comes to "those who won the war". Here I wish to let you know I definitely make a difference between citizen and their country/elites : like I'm speaking that way about those who won the war, but that doesn't mean I hate you because you're living in the united states of America or whatever. You've just got to eat that stuff yourself morning, noon and night too so that makes you a very decent and obedient pro-american pro-war pro-capitalist puppet (and here I need to say again there's no hate nor scorn in that, you absolutely don't need to feel any kind of disregard from myself here : I'm just speaking about the way everyone is raised in your country following the average educational background in western countries), so average people react that way when it comes to that horrible genocide even though their own family didn't suffer from it (thanks go to Hollywood)... So horrible it's no more a so-called genocide, but it's got its own name in the 70s (a name that wasn't even mentioned at the Nuremberg trials), just to make it more unique to the point everybody refers to that event as they would to a religion. If you translate that hebrew word I won't mention into arabic language, what do you get ? Nakba. Cough cough cough cough cough. Cough.

The holocaust is different from many other genocides, partly because of the relative scale of it. It successfully wiped out most Jewish centers, particularly in Eastern Europe, where entire villages, even cities were entirely liquidated to the last person. It was also the only example of mechanized mass slaughter, not the machete style killings of Rwanda or Cambodia. But purpose built centers designed to kill every single person that was brought there. Liquidating entire trains loaded with people crammed together in cattle cars, in a few hours or less. That is in part what makes the holocaust different.

As for your translation, that is not what it means in Arabic. Most Arab countries refuse to teach anything having to do with the holocaust, because of their own agenda, so there is not a word.

I won't burden anyone with that topic and talk about it in great length. Got enough infractions so far in here, and if people are happy with "what must never be forgotten in order never to repeat itself", it's good for them. So we won't be speaking about the help Zionists got from Nazi Germany entailing the mass transfer of tens of thousands of German Jews to Palestine, that lasted from 1933 to the first couple of years of WW2. But you need to keep something in mind : what is called the duty of remembrance, the obligation to remember, or duty never to forget definitely is selective. It conveys a political message.

Ah yes that old thing with the Haavara Agreement. Unsurprisingly the denial sites always get that one rather wrong. Yes prior to the start of WW2 (it stopped entirely once Germany invaded Poland, so no it did not go on for a couple of years into WW2) the Nazi's would export any Jews that would pay the price, which was a minimum of thousand pounds sterling, and the forfeiture of all of their assets in Germany. Of course the denial sites don't mention most of the above or what happened to many of the Jewish people who took this route out of desperation and fear, or why there were very few Jewish people to begin with in the area (the place which was their historical homeland), all the different pogroms that happened during that time, and for the last 1500 years. The Nazi's also pretty much seized everything the person owned, as they were exported as property from Germany, not as passengers. So the Jews that took this route basically lost everything they owned. Of course all of this happened well before the Nazi's came up with the final solution to the Jewish problem.

As for the infractions, you can discuss and debate this topic if you wish. The condition is you have to bring some evidence to your arguments, and avoid any form of Nazi or other Racist rhetoric or imagery (we do not tolerate hate speech here). I am always happy to take apart any denial or 'revisionist' material and show it for what it really is, a product of hatred. If you can do this, you will not get any infractions from me, nor anyone else, as you would be within our rules.

Israel and Palestine are entirely separate subject matter, and are not immediately relevant. Even though the aftermath of the Holocaust does factor into the creation of Israel, it is still a separate event.


Also for anyone else reading who has doubts on the veracity of the holocaust, or has read some of the denial material and is uncertain. By all means ask questions. The thing about denial literature is it seems rational and reasonable on the surface, scratch at it, and it falls apart very quickly.
This is a good place to start.
66 Questions & Answers About the Holocaust (http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi)
The Nizkor site itself also contains a great deal of information.

[Wolferz]

History always repeats itself no matter how much you illuminate a past event.

There are currently those who would gleefully repeat history on a grander scale if you read the tenants inscribed in multiple languages on the Georgia Guide stones.:hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

it is evident that the holocaust beast is alive and well. Human trafficking is alive and well and religious intolerance is alive and well. I'm glad I'm old 'cause I suspect strongly that what we call the holocaust now, looking back, ain't gonna be it ; that is still to come.

History always repeats itself no matter how much you illuminate a past event.There are currently those who would gleefully repeat history on a grander scale if you read the tenants inscribed in multiple languages on the Georgia Guide stones.:hmmm:

:sign_yeah::agree:Just so no one messes with the Amish or the unmodified Sasquatches- for they shall inherit...what's left... of the earth:o

[Wolferz]

:sign_yeah::agree:Just so no one messes with the Amish or the unmodified Sasquatches- for they shall inherit...what's left... of the earth:o

SEIG Jedediah:rock: Gimme that bible. I gots me some thumpin to do. Harry Henderson needs conversion.

[vanjast]

You forget... There were masters of genocide long before WW2
Google .. Boer War genocide

You'll be surprised how much the Germans learn't from this.

Separated from this, you'll also learn about african genocides...
Hello Henry.. bet you had no idea about this.. :D
Welcome to africa ..liberals
:har:

[Aktungbby]

You forget... There were masters of genocide long before WW2

You'll be surprised how much the Germans learn't from this.

:sign_yeah::agree:Actually, Hitler's quoted source and blueprint for the Wannsee conference, to determine the agenda for the holocaust, was, Allegedly, the Turkish extermination of the Armenians; still denied by Turkey to this day, but recognized by 21 nations as a major 20th century genocide and described by Churchhill as Administrative Genocide...death camps, gas poisoning; all witnessed and filmed by horrified German witnesses... firsthand. Like Rawanda, no one had squawked too much, so it seemed feasible to the Fuhrer too..."" Armenians for the most part had tried to live peacefully with their Turkish rulers. But in the mass nationalism of World War (http://www.historywiz.com/worldwarone.htm)I, the Turks planned and executed one of the most brutal genocides in history to achieve "Turkey for the Turks."
The leaders of the Armenian communities were executed suddenly and without cause. The remainder of the population was deported to Syria and Macedonia. They were force marched under horrible conditions with no provision for food and water. The plan was that few Armenians would reach their destination. Few did. Most of those who did not die of starvation, died of disease.
After their defeat in World War I, the new Ottoman government tried the leaders of the genocide and sentenced them to death in absentia. However within a few months the proceedings were suspended and the matter dropped. The survivors were not allowed to return to the Armenian plateau, and few Armenians live today in their traditional homeland. It was a "successful" genocide. Although many tried to help the Armenians, the international community failed to act to hold those responsible accountable.
In 1931 Hitler discussed with Richard Breiting the need for massive resettlements (deportations). He said "We intend to introduce a resettlement policy. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages...and remember the extermination of the Armenians. One eventually reaches the conclusion that the masses of man are mere biological plasticine."
Again in 1939 Adolf Hitler, on his way toward the "final solution" (http://www.historywiz.com/holocaust.htm) for the Jewish people, made this statement of his plans in Poland: I have placed my death-head formations in readiness - for the present only in the East - with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion , men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians? (italics added)
History does tend to repeat itself when we don't learn it's lessons, and sometimes someone like Hitler comes along who counts on us being "mere biological plasticine."" Whether or not Hitler ever made such a statement is in doubt, even by Armenian scholars, however one fact is certain, the Armenian event was well known in Germany and to all Germans; Hitler's well known flair for the minutiae of detail in running things( however ineptly) cannot have removed him from a hands-on day to day knowledge of all things connected to the holocaust, a most critical element of his policy and stated purpose even in Mein Kampf.

[Wolferz]

That's why I say that history will repeat itself again because somebody out there thinks that the world's population should be no more than 500,000,000 in number. In order to whittle down to that figure from the billions will require a mass genocide greater than all the previous ones recorded throughout history.:huh: The next one will not be about race or social standing. You will be measured on your worth to the powers that be.
Don't fret though. No need to make out your will because that will be nullified anyhoo and all your base are belong to them.:-?