no more pullups for female US marines

[Skybird]

By a German report (LINK (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/us-marines-setzen-klimmzugtests-fuer-soldatinnen-aus-a-941632.html) ) I learn that now has happened again exactly what nobody cna seriously want when allowing women into combat units and armed forces: that two standards for performance tests and fitness tests get established and the general standard gets lowered in order to still have gender equality.

Reports says that the US marine corps has stopped to demand female recruits physical tests and fitness tests that include pullups, since every second woman failed to achieve even just three pullups.

I'm all for same chances for females in the armed forces, almost all - though not all - branches. But only at this condition: that they pass the very same tests and qualification standards by which their male colleagues have to pass, since years and decades.

Because it is idiotic to assume that possible future enemies such female soldiers have to fight against will, confront them with voluntarily reduced combat strength to agree to more equalised chances between male hostile and female marine. A woman not en par with the physical performance abilities of her male colleagues, becomes a burden to her unit, and can even pout her whole unit at risk if her buddies have to take risks to compensate for her strength deficits. Thats starts with carrying stuff, and ends with many situation you can imagine when engaged under fire. As we would say in German, literally translating a phrase: a female soldiers nevertheless must be able to stand her man.

Political correctness continues with its corrosive endavours.

Not that the news is surprising, or shocking. It's the time we live in. The Chinese have this condemning wish for their enemies: "May you live in interesting times". Seen that way, we are extremely well-entertained.

Some days ago they had another report showing that internal research showed that rape of females in the Us armed forces is far more spread and happens far more often than officially admitted and shown by (cleaned) official numbers.

My policy: women are welcome - if they do not gain attention by showing deficits in physical and technical performance levels and if their inclusion in units and crews does not require more logistical reorganisation than can be justified, by all sane standards of reason, compared to the in principle: meaningless effect. If a soldier does the same job as well as his colleagues, it does not matter whether he/she is a boy or a girl. To have women in the armed forces for the mere purpose of being able to say that one has women in the armed forces, thus is absolutely pointless an argument. Gender means nothing here. Physical fitness and technical competence is what decides this for me.

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, we have to sacrifice our grasp on the realities of life to make everyone feel better. God help us if we ever get into another major ground war with an able opponent.

[Sailor Steve]

I have to completely agree. As soon as you need a double standard, all the standards are lowered.

[Admiral Halsey]

I don't mind sending woman into combat but if they can't do what the normal soldier can do then they need to stay far away from the front lines.

[Wolferz]

If the girls want to fight on the front lines, then they should be held to the same standards as their male peers. There are some women who can do it but not many. Adjusting the standards for the sake of political correctness is wrong on all counts and a waste of resources.

[Admiral Halsey]

If the girls want to fight on the front lines, then they should be held to the same standards as their male peers. There are some women who can do it but not many. Adjusting the standards for the sake of political correctness is wrong on all counts and a waste of resources.

Exactly. Sending those who can't fight properly to the front lines is murder.

[u crank]

I personally believe that very few people who join the military, male or female want to be in a war. Regardless of what they may say. Every effort should be made to convince female enlistees that a combat infantry role would be a mistake in most cases. There are many other trades in the military where gender would not be a factor. Of course that would not be politically correct. And there is your problem.

[Schroeder]

Of course that would not be politically correct. And there is your problem.
Don't worry, the enemy will be completely politically correct and shoot them regardless of gender if they can't climb over a wall in full combat gear fast enough to take cover...:shifty:

[August]

It always seems to happen this way. Advocates demand equal access promising that standards won't be lowered, then standards are lowered to accommodate equal access.

[Stealhead]

It says in an AP article that the failures are occurring with Females at boot camp not the active duty female Marines.

This seems to reflect more a poor general standard of physical fitness of young American women in general.I mean three pull ups any able bodied young person should be able to perform at least 3 pull ups.I can do that and I am 37 heck I meet the "perfect" male pullup standard which is 20 of course I'll be a bit tired after words but still.


http://news.yahoo.com/marines-delay-female-fitness-plan-half-fail-203830967--politics.html

P.S. I bet that the 7th one in the top photo aced the pullups no troubles.

P.S.S. Have women become weaker over time or something? Plenty of female sniper on the Soviet side in WWII and plenty of female fighters in Haganah plenty of female fighters in the VC as well.

P.S.S. The IDF has all female combat units

[Tribesman]

why is this story backwards?

[Onkel Neal]

On one hand, I understand that female bodies are different than male, so it's pretty unfair to compare. But on the other hand, women can do pullups, if they are fit enough. For example: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/01/03/nr-female-marines-combat-pull-ups.cnn.html

Hell, our next war will be fought 100% with drones, tens of thousands hopefully, so maybe it really doesn't matter? :03:

[Stealhead]

Hell, our next war will be fought 100% with drones, tens of thousands hopefully, so maybe it really doesn't matter? :03:

True not much strength is needed to push a button.

[Oberon]

True not much strength is needed to push a button.

I can't resist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4

[Stealhead]

In some cases this response is very true Vasquez's response.

I thought she was pretty hot when I was 10 or 11 heck I still do.Kind of like my wife I never worry about her because anyone that ever made the mistake of messing with her would be sorry and not because of anything I might do but do to her actions.Not to say that my wife is not feminine she just is no push over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYkxCzBszOQ

Of course there plenty of non-combat jobs in the military where some physical ability is required and not everyone really hacks it just like with any other job.

[Oberon]

Indeed, and to be honest, I'd wager that 98% of the women in the armed forces would roll their eyes at this news, they are tougher than men always give them credit for, but again you have to wonder if that's partially down to how society tends to defer towards the pretty blonde with pipe-cleaner legs and arms rather than the Vasquez type, although it's a lot less like that these days than it was even forty years ago. :up:

[nikimcbee]

On one hand, I understand that female bodies are different than male

That's good, I would hate to have to pull you aside at the next subsim meet to explain stuff.:03:

Note, I used all of the self control in the world, to not post a 1950's educational film here.:03:
I did find a really funny one though.

[Admiral Halsey]

I did find a really funny one though.

You think you could PM me it? Those always make me laugh.

[Stealhead]

Indeed, and to be honest, I'd wager that 98% of the women in the armed forces would roll their eyes at this news, they are tougher than men always give them credit for, but again you have to wonder if that's partially down to how society tends to defer towards the pretty blonde with pipe-cleaner legs and arms rather than the Vasquez type, although it's a lot less like that these days than it was even forty years ago. :up:

I think it boils down to the individual not the sex.I mean look around in any populated area and tell me how many fairly dainty men you see(not talking campy types sexual preference is not the concern here but how one carries himself).Not to say that every man has to be a star athlete but you know what I am getting at. Plenty of men either lack the heart or the physical strength to perform at the level that being a solider requires or other jobs that require a good deal of physical labor.

Just from my personal experience in the military I know that there are males who should be able to a given task on thier own without help yet find that they need help anyway.On the flip side of the coin I had a female troop under me she was tiny just over five feet tall and she could do the same jobs without asking for help.I trained this woman in all the flight line tasks which require the most physical exertion like pushing aircraft jacks around and even up onto a low flatbed.

I told her that she'd get much more respect if she did it herself rather than ask for help and she did.Of course I also witnessed some females who I felt performed at a lesser level than they actually could but they had male peers with the same work ethic.If you really want to do something you will if you want to be lazy you can.I guess that might be a rip off of Henry Ford "Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right." that applies to people with sloth like work ethic because they want to be lazy and chances are the still get by most of the time.

Another thing I was thinking as well is how many male Marine Corps recruits fail their PT standards what they in the USMC and every other branch is wash the recruit back a few weeks the USMC has special platoons where PT washouts go and the enter time they are there they are doing physical training then they get sent back to a normal platoon.USMC basic is pretty tough and has a pretty high failure rate(as in kicked out not a wash back) mostly failure to meet physical standards even for males.One thing I wonder as the article does not say are the females completely failing or just getting washed into a PT platoon where a fair percentage are catching up and later completing basic.

Just a thought as there is no honest article out there anymore always an agenda one way or the other and I can see this whole deal being used by both the "woman are too weak" types and the "women should have a standard that is special for them but still should have any job in the military types".

[MH]

Three pull ups as entry requirement is meaningless.
What is more important is done during the actual training when building physical and mental condition from ground up.
Women may need bit different set of exercises (called here effort ladder)to arrive eventually at the similar physical condition as men.
It is because physiological differences and different upbringing.
This may require two parallel training pathes or adjusting it to everybody - that is equal starting point.


I think that a lot of women can do exactly same things as men but why do they need this crap is beyond me....
As said here earlier there are a lot of other stuff women can do without the need of proving anything.
But then again a lot of men do a lot of stuff because the need to prove something then ...whatever.
I guess it is logistic nightmare for the army to adapt where men had dominated for so long.

[Nippelspanner]

I'm all for same chances for females in the armed forces, almost all - though not all - branches. But only at this condition: that they pass the very same tests and qualification standards by which their male colleagues have to pass, since years and decades.
I am ex-military.
Before my army time I said:
"Women in the military? Hell why not?"
After my service I said:
"Women in the military? Hell no!"
(Of course, combat-unit related, not generally)

Once you've seen a woman desperately trying and trying to just load an assault rifle (HK G3A3) you quickly change your mind from
"Let's all run around with flowers in our hair!" to "Never change a running system!"

When you see them collapsing to the ground in pain, being unable to run a few miles due to monthly circumstances, you start to imagine "What if..."

Women in combat units? No thanks!
Women in the military? Of course, no question about that.

[MH]

Once you've seen a woman desperately trying and trying to just load an assault rifle (HK G3A3) you quickly change your mind from
"Let's all run around with flowers in our hair!" to "Never change a running system!"



:rotfl2:

You havent seen them all.:haha:

[Skybird]

Female body has the stronger immune system, but more bodyfat and less muscles than the male body, additionally the fat is located differently in the body. As a result, women become colder much faster than male, and the average woman is weaker in strength than the average male. Obviously, muscles can be trained, but it may take a woman more training effort to reach the strength level of an average male, and then she is no longer the statistically average women, but the exceptionally well-trained woman.

However, it can be done, by training. And that is what has to be demanded. Future wars and infantry actions in a firefight will not stop to be defined by what the welltrained male soldier can do and bear, what he can carry and how he can pull his own weight over an obstacle or into cover. And so it is last but not least in women's very own interest to train that hard to make it to that level instead of being given an easier ride. No MG out there will fire slower bullets because they fly towards a female body.

When selecting recruits, you obviously need criteria by which to decide who passes and who not. These criteria should reflect, ideally, the probability that after military training sessions have ended, the education and training indeed has been finished successful, and so to reduce the number of those who fail or break down in the course of that program. That is why it makes sense to filter out physically unsuited or unfit people at the very beginning, no matter whether they are boys or girls. If you lag behind too much, you also become a burden and hindering ballast for the whole course, and so the education and training quality for all others suffers as well.

A woman wanting to pass for marine training, better makes sure BEFORE going there that she has trained enough to pass the test. Like all males as well.

In the end, infantry fights are defined by male power standards, not female standards. A girl either meets these standards, or not. But to have the weaker of two standards being introduced through the back door - that is insane. One standard for all - and the tougher one.

[MH]

When it comes to military training(in particular at the beginning) a lot depends on determination and not necessary physical strength.
A lot of guys that actually exercise before army service fall off while others stay.
You never know....
Too often it is issue of personal character.
The smart way is to make the training changing in a way that will put a person to the test while eventually arriving to the required level.

[Skybird]

I would assume that what I say about muscle power in principle is true for will power as well. At least concerning the desired effect of training.

[Skybird]

I am ex-military.
Before my army time I said:
"Women in the military? Hell why not?"
After my service I said:
"Women in the military? Hell no!"
(Of course, combat-unit related, not generally)

Once you've seen a woman desperately trying and trying to just load an assault rifle (HK G3A3) you quickly change your mind from
"Let's all run around with flowers in our hair!" to "Never change a running system!"

When you see them collapsing to the ground in pain, being unable to run a few miles due to monthly circumstances, you start to imagine "What if..."

Women in combat units? No thanks!
Women in the military? Of course, no question about that.
I cannot assess that, have no such experience myself. To me, the military shall not know men and women. Only soldiers, or more precise: warriors. Either a person has qualified to be one, or not. The women you describe, obviously have not.

[MH]

I would assume that what I say about muscle power in principle is true for will power as well. At least concerning the desired effect of training.

Muscle power is important but may vary , that is why at completion or during training some carry MGs other LAW's or MGs and other mortals and so on...

It often depends on combination body mass and strength and personal skills with given weapon.
You may have little bony guy that may be assinged m203 for example or be a sharpshooter.

[Tribesman]

In the end, infantry fights are defined by male power standards, not female standards. A girl either meets these standards, or not. But to have the weaker of two standards being introduced through the back door - that is insane. One standard for all - and the tougher one.
Still getting the story backwards.
It isn't introducing the weaker of several standards through the back door, it is delaying the raising of one of those standards.
As for one standard for all, that would mean removing the age standards too as older troops pass the test by meeting only the minimum requirement while younger troops fail if they only meet the minimum requirement

[Feuer Frei!]

Considering that Diversity is near the top of the Military's priority?
Not surprising.

Google the 2011 Report of the Military Leadership Diversity Commission.

/thread

[gi_dan2987]

I can't resist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhYJgDdCu4


So true! I love that movie :smug:

[kranz]

time for my 2 cents:

women who want to help in the army should be put in paid brothels behind the front line.
.
.
.
.
gotcha - I was trolling.
Their services should be free.:har:

[MH]

time for my 2 cents:

women who want to help in the army should be put in paid brothels behind the front line.
.
.
.
.
gotcha - I was trolling.
Their services should be free.:har:

My guess is you can do three pull ups due to being light weight on nervus system between your ears.

Go take a leak as well....:up::03:

[NeonSamurai]

time for my 2 cents:

women who want to help in the army should be put in paid brothels behind the front line.
.
gotcha - I was trolling.
Their services should be free.:har:

With misogynistic comments like that, it's a wonder why there are not more females on this forum.

Also Sky your statement about women getting colder is not accurate. Women are more sensitive to feeling cold, but actually are better than men at managing and surviving cold, as they tend to have a thicker and more even layer of subcutaneous fat.

Anyhow as for the topic, males and females in the military... Truth be told each sex offers different strengths and weaknesses for military service. Women do not have as much upper body strength, but strength is hardly the determining factor in combat, not in ancient times, and definitely not now. Endurance is more important for hauling gear, which is something most women can do just fine as they do have good lower body strength.

While a woman may not be the most ideal candidate as the squad's support gunner, there are plenty of other roles that they can match males in, or even exceed. For example, physically women are far better suited as fighter pilots than males, they are smaller in size, have less mass, and as a result can tolerate g forces much better. Women also tend to have better manual dexterity and are more agile. Which again makes the good candidates for piloting, or crewing tanks, or sniping, recon, etc.. So perhaps we should raise the bar in those areas.

Some of these physical tests are just arbitrary tests. The real question is who is most best suited for each job.

[Nippelspanner]

time for my 2 cents:

women who want to help in the army should be put in paid brothels behind the front line.
.
.
.
.
gotcha - I was trolling.
Their services should be free.:har:
Best of 2014 anyone?:haha:
Hilarious!:rotfl2:

[Red October1984]

Next-Gen US Marines

https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1526989_797031370313704_322167944_n.jpg

[Skybird]

With misogynistic comments like that, it's a wonder why there are not more females on this forum.

Also Sky your statement about women getting colder is not accurate. Women are more sensitive to feeling cold, but actually are better than men at managing and surviving cold, as they tend to have a thicker and more even layer of subcutaneous fat.

You fall for an old myth, that the isolation effect of body fat is what decides this, but we know that this assumption is wrong. We are no seals in cold water. Decisive for human body' thermo-homeostasis is the production of warmth inside the body, and this is not produced by fat, but by muscles and metabolic activity. Since the male body has more muscle mass than the female body, it produces more warmth, and thus the body is better heated.

On average, the male body contains 40% muscles and 15% fat, the female body contains 25% muscles and 25% fat. Go figure.

[August]

Next-Gen US Marines


Bet she could still kick your Civil Air Patrol butt. :yep:

[Nippelspanner]

You fall for an old myth, that the isolation effect of body fat is what decides this, but we know that this assumption is wrong. We are no seals in cold water. Decisive for human body' thermo-homeostasis is the production of warmth inside the body, and this is not produced by fat, but by muscles and metabolic activity. Since the male body has more muscle mass than the female body, it produces more warmth, and thus the body is better heated.

On average, the male body contains 40% muscles and 15% fat, the female body contains 25% muscles and 25% fat. Go figure.
That is correct.

[Red October1984]

Bet she could still kick your Civil Air Patrol butt. :yep:

I've met 14 year old Staff Sargeants with better war faces. :O:

EDIT: To be honest, she probably would because I won't fight a woman.

[Skybird]

I looked it up even more, and learned this:

The male outer skin is 15-20% thicker than female outer skin. In case of physical cold cinditon meeting the body barrier, bloodciruclation in the skin'S upper layer gets reduced, which is easier to accompli8sh in thin skin than in thicker skin. Woemn'S skin thus becomes up to three degrees colder than a male'S skin int he same situation. So not only produces the femal ebody less inner wamrth, but the sensoric perception of cold is not just imgaination, but bases on a physical reality - in the skin's sensor feedback.

Add this to the overestimation of isolation effects of suvcutaneous fat. The problem with that argument was that most of women'S higher share of fat is concentrated not in subcutaneous fat layers, but in certain body "hotspots", usually those areas that males admire so much. I read that today, the minor isolation gains of subcutaneous fat gets neutralised even more due to Western beauty ideals that prefers a slim figure.

So: women produce less warmth, feel cool outside temperates more intense because their skin in fact IS colder, and the subcutaneous fat layers do not compensate for these negative warmth effect.

Finally, blood pressure. The average blood pressure in the female body is lower than in the male body.

[Stealhead]

I've met 14 year old Staff Sargeants with better war faces. :O:

EDIT: To be honest, she probably would because I won't fight a woman.


Pretty sure that is just lousy selfy not a "war face" which is nothing but a bunch of hoopla anyway.

Lousy excuse by the way.some of the best fights I ever witnessed where woman vs. a man.In one the man hit first and the woman who was much stronger picked him up
threw him into the ceiling then slammed him into the floor that was it man was down for the count in about 10 seconds.

Saw another one in high school two girls that was the most brutal fight I have ever seen and they knocked out two guys that tried to break it up.

[Red October1984]

Pretty sure that is just lousy selfy not a "war face" which is nothing but a bunch of hoopla anyway.

Yes I know.... :shifty:

Lousy excuse by the way.some of the best fights I ever witnessed where woman vs. a man.In one the man hit first and the woman who was much stronger picked him up
threw him into the ceiling then slammed him into the floor that was it man was down for the count in about 10 seconds.

Well I'm sorry that respect for women is a "lousy excuse"

Saw another one in high school two girls that was the most brutal fight I have ever seen and they knocked out two guys that tried to break it up.

I've seen some on various shows and heard tons of stories from tons of people.

Fights are fights is how I see it. Most of them start over something that could've been easily solved.

One of my favorite quotes "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far"

My interpretation is that I will only fight when I have to. I've never been in a major fight but I've had a share of the scuffles.

Never found a reason to all-out fight. Because most of my problems so far can/were solved by other means.

[Stealhead]

Well I'm sorry that respect for women is a "lousy excuse"


My interpretation is that I will only fight when I have to. I've never been in a major fight but I've had a share of the scuffles.

Never found a reason to all-out fight. Because most of my problems so far can/were solved by other means.

Just because a person has respect for women is irrelevant.I find it very hard to believe that any person if placed in a defensive situation where a female where attacking them would just do nothing because they "respect women".

I split fighting or brawling and self defense in two separate categories.A fight is an activity where all parties involved got into a physical altercation for a foolish reason.

Self defense is another ball game and one could meet one of the meaning of fight by using their hands and feet to defend themselves from another attacker.In such a situation to say that one would not fight a woman is pretty silly and would only get you robbed or hurt or what ever else the female attackers intent was.

Most people have not actually been in any serious fights either so thus far you are not an exception.People who find the need to fight often usually also often find the need to post bail.

Of course keep in mind that the rate of females being the assailant in violet crimes has sharply risen over the past decade so never assume just because someone is a woman that she is not dangerous.

Personally I will respect anyone so long as their actions warrant respect.

[soopaman2]

If I was in combat, I would want someone who could drag a body away. (alive or dead)


I do not approve of women in mixed combat with men.

I know I am opening myself up to a flame, or may even be considered a troll.

Save your feminism, the I am woman hear me roar crap, women are physically inferior to men, and will always hold the whole mixed unit back.

Unless they are all built like Amazonians, or can pass physical requirements, leave them in the rear.

Political correctness, at the cost of combat efficiency. God Bless America.



edit: Before this supposed change, women already had vastly diminished physical fitness requirements.


Sorry, war is a mans game, get over it, or conform. (beef up, and pass a uniform physical fitness requirement)

I do not want my life in the hands of a 130 pound frau, who can barely carry her pack, who would?

[Stealhead]

If I was in combat, I would want someone who could drag a body away. (alive or dead)


I would want anyone who can maintain self control well enough to return fire.

Truth be told the ability to drag away a dead body is useless in direct combat why waste combat capacity to move a dead body?:hmmm:

In combat the first priority is to gain or maintain fire superiority harsh as this sounds that means that a wounded person is just going to have to wait until their comrades gain enough control of the situation such that it is possible to reach the injured person without risking further casualties.

As I said before the Viet Cong had many female combatants the VC was also expert at fading away and often leaving few bodies behind must have been the males doing all the work.What it really was is they lacked our silly beliefs.

Tome it has nothing to do with political correctness if a person can perform the tasks there should be noting baring them.

[soopaman2]

I would want anyone who can maintain self control well enough to return fire.

Truth be told the ability to drag away a dead body is useless in direct combat why waste combat capacity to move a dead body?:hmmm:

In combat the first priority is to gain or maintain fire superiority harsh as this sounds that means that a wounded person is just going to have to wait until their comrades gain enough control of the situation such that it is possible to reach the injured person without risking further casualties.

As I said before the Viet Cong had many female combatants the VC was also expert at fading away and often leaving few bodies behind must have been the males doing all the work.What it really was is they lacked our silly beliefs.

Tome it has nothing to do with political correctness if a person can perform the tasks there should be noting baring them.

I truly mean nothing mean or mysogynistic, I simply believe minimal physical requirements are in place for a reason, and if little Miss, can barely hump her pack, how much will that slow down the unit?

I am sorry, pass the phsyical requirements men do, or drive a water truck.
1
edit: I like girls in combat, they can play too. In Israel, they let them man (or women) tanks. I am down with that..

On foot, mixed infantry, I got a problem with.

[August]

harsh as this sounds that means that a wounded person is just going to have to wait until their comrades gain enough control of the situation such that it is possible to reach the injured person without risking further casualties.

Fire superiority is not something permanent like a finish line once crossed ends the contest. Covering fire may only be effective for a few minutes. Do you seriously expect a wounded soldiers comrades to wait until the battle is over before attempting a rescue?

[August]

I truly mean nothing mean or mysogynistic, I simply believe minimal physical requirements are in place for a reason, and if little Miss, can barely hump her pack, how much will that slow down the unit?

This ^

I just can't see many women being able to hump the loads these guys do on a regular basis.

http://www.70sbig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/soldier5-400x296.jpg

http://www.combatreform.org/overloadedconkedout.jpg

http://www.acclaimimages.com/_gallery/_free_images/0420-0908-1811-5420_soldier_carrying_a_heavy_pack_walking_through _snow_m.jpg

[Red October1984]

Just because a person has respect for women is irrelevant.I find it very hard to believe that any person if placed in a defensive situation where a female where attacking them would just do nothing because they "respect women".

I split fighting or brawling and self defense in two separate categories.A fight is an activity where all parties involved got into a physical altercation for a foolish reason.

Self defense is another ball game and one could meet one of the meaning of fight by using their hands and feet to defend themselves from another attacker.In such a situation to say that one would not fight a woman is pretty silly and would only get you robbed or hurt or what ever else the female attackers intent was.

Most people have not actually been in any serious fights either so thus far you are not an exception.People who find the need to fight often usually also often find the need to post bail.

Of course keep in mind that the rate of females being the assailant in violet crimes has sharply risen over the past decade so never assume just because someone is a woman that she is not dangerous.

Personally I will respect anyone so long as their actions warrant respect.

Self Defense...I can see where that situation could present itself.

I just don't like the idea of hitting women. Something I've never liked and something I won't ever get used to.

If and when a self defense situation presents itself, you better believe I'll self defend...doesn't always mean I have to like it I guess. It's moral decision or death in some cases.

However, I really wonder how many street thieves have the guts to actually kill somebody. I don't think that some person asking for my wallet would really actually stab me with that knife.

Depends on the situation I guess.

[Sailor Steve]

However, I really wonder how many street thieves have the guts to actually kill somebody. I don't think that some person asking for my wallet would really actually stab me with that knife.
Do you have any idea how many people have died due to that kind of thinking? No, most thieves, and most burglars, aren't there to kill, but some will, and knowing one from the other is not easy.

[Red October1984]

Do you have any idea how many people have died due to that kind of thinking? No, most thieves, and most burglars, aren't there to kill, but some will, and knowing one from the other is not easy.

See....that's the thing. You can almost never know. :hmmm:

[Aktungbby]

I don't think that some person asking for my wallet would really actually stab me with that knife. Depends on the situation I guess.Assume otherwise! As in a previous post: in Central Park NY my trusty Colt's Trooper kept a mugger encounter cordial. The mugger's shock at seeing anyone armed in the big apple was genuine...but he moved on to easier pickings. Another state senator's son was killed outright in front of my post in SF. I and my nephews(one got mugged in DC) never carry cash in the wallet to begin with; that goes on a money clip to be a 'throwdown' to the bandit(a little more than $5.00) so he doesn't get pissed. This saves you the trouble of re-documenting everything from your driver license to your credit cards and/or your social security card (which shouldn't be in the wallet to begin with) but often is. It won't be a knife but a Sat. night special to the gut...and don't have an expensive 'William-Henry Money' clip either, just a cheapo and $20.00+- so the bad guy doesn't get pissed and off ya' for spite. Von C rule # 3: Never count on yer drug-crazed mugger doing what your plan calls for him to do...'cause he won't! In his mind you're thoroughly expendable and his needs are not! I'm 62 with one .380 in the thigh(shattered) and I never make the same mistake twice. Don't learn from your mistakes, learn from others...mine; it saves ya' energy, pain and misery.

[Red October1984]

Assume otherwise! As in a previous post: in Central Park NY my trusty Colt's Trooper kept a mugger encounter cordial. The mugger's shock at seeing anyone armed in the big apple was genuine...but he moved on to easier pickings. Another state senator's son was killed outright in front of my post in SF. I and my nephews(one got mugged in DC) never carry cash in the wallet to begin with; that goes on a money clip to be a 'throwdown' to the bandit(a little more than $5.00) so he doesn't get pissed. This saves you the trouble of re-documenting everything from your driver license to your credit cards and/or your social security card (which shouldn't be in the wallet to begin with) but often is. It won't be a knife but a Sat. night special to the gut...and don't have an expensive 'William-Henry Money' clip either, just a cheapo and $20.00+- so the bad guy doesn't get pissed and off ya' for spite. Von C rule # 3: Never count on yer drug-crazed mugger doing what your plan calls for him to do...'cause he won't! In his mind you're thoroughly expendable and his needs are not! I'm 62 with one .380 in the thigh(shattered) and I never make the same mistake twice. Don't learn from your mistakes, learn from others...mine; it saves ya' energy, pain and misery.

Fair enough.

That's why I say it depends on the situation I guess.

Actually understood that post. Achievement Unlocked.

[MH]

This ^

I just can't see many women being able to hump the loads these guys do on a regular basis. Because most likely you never done it.
Those guys do this stuff for a reason but im sure they don't do it on regular basis certainly not when going into combat....and if they do the wight is reasonable.

Yes you need strong legs and back ....and you would feel like mule under strain doing it - where again mule like state of mind/stamina comes to play.
Something you acquire with time together with strong legs and resistant back regardless you being able to do three pull ups at first day of boot camp.

Normally you don't want to haul too much stuff for too long.
It can cause you to become cripple before seeing any combat in particular when having strong motivation and going on regardless of your body breaking apart.

[Aktungbby]

This ^

I just can't see many women being able to hump the loads these guys do on a regular basis.

http://www.70sbig.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/soldier5-400x296.jpg

^ YUP! Actually, pictures don't lie! This guy ain't exactly 'motivatin' at flank speed either and I've caddied(teens) two men's golf bags, 36 holes-60lbs+, and 100lb Duluth packs... with the canoe, portaging...in the MN/Canadian Quetico Wilderness in my time:o and still feel it and can relate. And the ladies kept up and then some! My question is: what is the view and situation in the Israeli and WWII Soviet military which actually have/had women in combat and don't seem to have issues...at all. Those Valkyrie, snipers and pilots, were feared by the NAZI 'supermen' and for good reason!:hmmm:

[Schroeder]

What also makes me wonder is, do they lower the limits in order to get politically correct or can't they fill their ranks otherwise?:hmm2:

[August]

Because most likely you never done it.

I've done my share of ruck marches MH. Maybe it's different for Israeli conscript but in the US Army during my day, 80lb packs plus weapon and ammo for a dozen or so miles was quite common. And yes many of us pay the price for it to this day.

[antikristuseke]

Ruck marches were "fun" but have very little to do with physical strength as such, I is more down to endurance, both mental and physical. But that is neither here or there really, as others have said, physical requiredments are there for a reason, you either exceed them or you are out.

[MH]

I've done my share of ruck marches MH. Maybe it's different for Israeli conscript but in the US Army during my day, 80lb packs plus weapon and ammo for a dozen or so miles was quite common. And yes many of us pay the price for it to this day.


Cool then...
As said above it is very much about endurance and overall physical condition solder aquarius with time.
The marches for example may get progressively longer with time...if we are into this march issue.
I remember my first short one with some basic equipment , i thought i would die.:haha:

I dont say that physical test are not necessary regarding overall health yet getting dramatical about three pull ups is nonsense.

One thing is clear , women training should be approached bit differently ... consider that sometimes there may be number of ways to arrive at similar results.

If this is worthwhile for the military i don't know yet a lot of women believe that they can do it and should do it...so let stubborn ones have some.

[Nippelspanner]

One thing is clear , women training should be approached bit differently ...
No, it is not clear. As a former drill instructor, I completely disagree.

Every soldier has to pull through the same crap. Can't make it? Bummer, get back to your ki... last job then!

[MH]

No, it is not clear. As a former drill instructor, I completely disagree.

Every soldier has to pull through the same crap. Can't make it? Bummer, get back to your ki... last job then!

All soldiers would pull through same crap but the physical load pace , at least at the beginning might need to be a bit slower.
Things could still be nasty enough.

[Aktungbby]

No, it is not clear. As a former drill instructor, I completely disagree.

Naturally, but were not talkin' GOOSESTEPPIN' with the pack here! :woot:

[nikimcbee]

Well that's good to hear. About time.
http://dgc.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pDGC1-12067297v380.jpg

[Wolferz]

No, it is not clear. As a former drill instructor, I completely disagree.

Every soldier has to pull through the same crap. Can't make it? Bummer, get back to your ki... last job then!
Ah, Beast Master!:rock:

I wouldn't have a problem with GI Jane in my foxhole. I had female drills in A school and I wouldn't sell them short, especially when they can murder you during morning PT.:huh: Same for the girls in the company.
As for the Marines, I think that duty should be mostly all male. Females welcome if they can meet the same standards. Any exception puts people at risk.

[Armistead]

Who wouldn't mind a female marine in your foxhole during war, far away from home, impending death possible.......if you and a male marine finally ran out of bullets, not much you can do, a female in the hole, least you can pass the time until you're captured.

[TarJak]

I dunno. The kind of lass likely to want to be a Marine is likely to not be interested.

[Red October1984]

I dunno. The kind of lass likely to want to be a Marine is likely to not be interested.

:har:

But they could always play a game of basketball.

[MH]

lol actuallly there seem a lot of worse stuff going on in the army as it seems.
Something that only uber rich military can afford to do?:haha:
So what do you tough guys have to say about this , not everyone goes through the same crap in US marines after all.?



Before arriving at recruit training, all prospective recruits undergo a physical examination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_examination) by a doctor at a Military Entrance Processing Station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Military_Entrance_Processing_Command ). Recruits receive their initial weigh-in during the forming phase.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Recruit_Training#cite_n ote-3) If the recruit is under or over the height and weight standards,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Recruit_Training#cite_n ote-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Recruit_Training#cite_n ote-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Recruit_Training#cite_n ote-6) the recruit is placed on double rations if underweight or in a "diet" status if overweight. Recruits on double rations, or "double rat recruits", are given twice the usual amount of food. Conversely, diet recruits are put on a strict diet composed of fewer calories and lower-fat foods such as baked fish and rice.
All recruits receive three meals a day (also known as "chow time"), except during the Crucible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Recruit_Training#The_Cr ucible). These are either served at the mess facility while in garrison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrison), a boxed A-ration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-ration) when traveling to a mess facility is not practical, or a Meal, Ready-to-Eat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meal,_Ready-to-Eat) during field training. Meal time can last 30 minutes or less, depending on how quickly the platoon gets in line at the chow hall. Recruits are mandated a minimum of 20 minutes to consume each meal though more often than not they do not take anywhere close to that amount of time, often they only need 10 to 15 minutes.
In some cases, recruits may fail to meet certain physical fitness standards or may inadvertently suffer an injury which prevents them from continuing training. These two types of recruits are moved from their initial training platoon and company to the Special Training Company (STC), which retains a disciplined, "boot camp" style environment while being oriented to the improvement of the individual recruit's physical and mental ability to train. The Special Training Company is divided into three platoons. While platoons in normal U.S. military parlance denote a group of around 40–70 personnel, each STC platoon is as large as necessity dictates and may often contain 500 or more recruits along with their assigned drill instructors and other personnel.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Recruit_Training#cite_n ote-7)
Recruits who fail the initial fitness test, as well as those who fail to perform adequately later in training, are dropped to the Physical Conditioning Platoon (PCP) at STC, informally known as the "Pork Chop Platoon" or "Donut Brigade". Recruits in PCP are engaged in a vigorous regimen of physical exercise to prepare them for reentry into training. Recruits who are injured, on the other hand, become part of the Medical Rehabilitation Platoon (MRP), in which they are closely monitored and treated by naval medical personnel while receiving implicit instruction about the Marine Corps and performing whatever small tasks, such as cleaning, they may be capable of. In some cases, it may be necessary for a recruit who has recovered from illness or injury in MRP may need to be moved to PCP to regain an appropriate level of physical fitness and avoid further injury or illness before they eventually rejoin a training platoon.
Finally, there is the Evaluative Holding Platoon (EHP). This is a generalized platoon that encompasses all recruits who, for any reason, are unable to continue with their training platoon and are being evaluated for possible discharge. This platoon may include recruits who have failed to adapt to the conditions of the Marine Corps' boot camp or have refused to continue training. Any recruit in Special Training Company is carefully assessed for physical, mental, and moral fitness, and when he or she is considered to be prepared to resume training, will generally be placed with a platoon at the last training level the recruit had completed.
Medical care is provided by the Naval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy) medical personnel: doctors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_Corps_(United_States_Navy)) and corpsmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Hospital_Corpsman).]

[Wolferz]

@ MH,
You forgot the guys in CCF. Criminal Confinement Facility, where the bad boys and girls go to be hauled around in a CUCV and forced to run from CUCV to sidewalk while holding up ID card and chanting CCF! CCF!:D

[Stealhead]

lol actuallly there seem a lot of worse stuff going on in the army as it seems.
Something that only uber rich military can afford to do?:haha:
So what do you tough guys have to say about this , not everyone goes through the same crap in US marines after all.?


I mentioned that already post #19 4th paragraph not in some much detail though.Of course in the end they do go through the same training because once they leave the "doughnut platoon" they go right back to the point that they washed out from in regular basic it even says so at the end of what you quoted.

Also I am fairly certain that many armed forces have similar practices.It would not be cost effective to get rid of anyone who has the capacity to complete the training.Not sure what makes you think the US military is uber rich we have extremely tight budgets.Half the time the chow hall ran out of funds for the month you could always tell because they would get very creative at creating left overs Tuesdays Spaghetti would become a weirdo casserole lasagna combo for the rest of the week.Sometimes in units we ran out of money for new parts when this happened we had to sneak into another shop and try to "borrow" what we needed or rig something.

Most of that money goes to Lockeed-Martin,Boeing,Gruman and numerous other contractors.We used to joke about the whole $6,000 dollar bolt thing maybe that is true but in my line of work we actually did have fairly expensive shear bolts that where used in aircraft tow bars the sheer pin for the C-5 tow bar the shear bolt for that assembly(the aircraft not a C5 tow bar which is totally different) costs $10,000 dollars these where fairly large bolts though and they are specially engineered to break a certain way if not well beyond $10,000 in damage would transfer to the landing gear.The joke was maybe they heard the price of a shear bolt and thought it was comparable the typical low cost bolt.Not to say that there are no over priced contracts.

[Wolferz]

I dunno, Stealhead. They might be referring to those gold plated toilet seats on military aircraft. Or at least the ordinary variety that cost as much as a gold plated toilet seat. My guess would be that the overpriced parts are just a cover to earmark money for black ops and projects or line the contractor's pockets. Well, they have to make their bribe money back somehow, eh?:shifty:

$500.00 hammers and other sundry tools and equipment are not always made by the lowest bidder on the contract.:hmmm:

[soopaman2]

Who wouldn't mind a female marine in your foxhole during war, far away from home, impending death possible.......if you and a male marine finally ran out of bullets, not much you can do, a female in the hole, least you can pass the time until you're captured.


Yeah, I want my Marines worried about ... protecting little miss can't hump her own sack, than facing and defeating an enemy.

This is not a call of duty game.


Edit...No marine gives up, they won't whimper in a hole, they go out dying. Your whole horny fantasy is moot. Maybe the Chair force can quench your desires. ;) (them guys get laid)

[August]

Yeah, I want my Marines worried about fingerbanging or protecting little miss can't hump her own sack, than facing and defeating an enemy.

You got a point there Soop. The Marine or Soldier busy shtupping his girlfriend in a foxhole is not keeping an eye out for the approach of death.

Battlefields are no place for love.

[Onkel Neal]

Guys, keep it clean, ok?

Man, so much disrespect for women. Can't you discuss this without demeaning half the human race? :O:


Ah, Beast Master!:rock:

I wouldn't have a problem with GI Jane in my foxhole. I had female drills in A school and I wouldn't sell them short, especially when they can murder you during morning PT.:huh: Same for the girls in the company.
As for the Marines, I think that duty should be mostly all male. Females welcome if they can meet the same standards. Any exception puts people at risk.

See, this is a good argument.

Who wouldn't mind a female marine in your foxhole during war, far away from home, impending death possible.......if you and a male marine finally ran out of bullets, not much you can do, a female in the hole, least you can pass the time until you're captured.

This is a little risque, but still in fairly good taste...

Yeah, I want my Marines worried about ...**************** protecting little miss can't hump her own sack, than facing and defeating an enemy.

This is not a call of duty game.



Uh, whoa. :dead:

[soopaman2]

Not demeaning anyone, but if you cannot pull your own weight then sit in the rear with the gear.

I also fear the reactions of scared teenagers low 20s... in a hole, worried more about a toss, than meeting and killing an enemy.


Do you know the average age of infantry? Do you remember how you were at that age?

If the girl can pass, then let her in, but most cannot. Even before pullup restrictions were removed, women had to do vastly less in the PT tests.


My reaction to this issue is not Mysogyny, but Biology.
Men are more suited for physical things, sorry. It is what it is. I am not a woman hater. I just want the integrity of our forces uncompromised.

Pass the goddamn physical restrictions or STFU.

Every Marine is a riflemen, unless your a chick, and cannot lug her own sack, and got pushed through to satisfy political correctness.

Yeah, way to up combat efficiency.

[Stealhead]

Every Marine is a riflemen, unless your a chick, and cannot lug her own sack, and got pushed through to satisfy political correctness.

Yeah, way to up combat efficiency.


Actually the female Marines that where members of the maintenance squadron for VMF-211 at Camp Bastion all of those Marines(male and female) are not infantry but still follow the "every Marine is a rifleman" philosophy apparently did just fine in the fire fight that resulted after the Taliban raid on Bastion in 2012.

I'd rather have a female Marine that earned a marksmen badge by my side than you any day of the week.Even if she is not John Henry her lead on target will be worth its weight in gold.What have you shot? A tree from 20 feet away?

[August]

Actually the female Marines that where members of the maintenance squadron for VMF-211 at Camp Bastion all of those Marines(male and female) are not infantry but still follow the "every Marine is a rifleman" philosophy apparently did just fine in the fire fight that resulted after the Taliban raid on Bastion in 2012.

I'd rather have a female Marine that earned a marksmen badge by my side than you any day of the week.Even if she is not John Henry her lead on target will be worth its weight in gold.What have you shot? A tree from 20 feet away?

I thought we were talking about women in the Infantry, not women defending a base.

[MH]

Professionalism and ability to withstand under psychological strains is valid issue for foot soliders.
It not just about hauling stuff… if not least so.