75% tax

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25541739

Taxing by the biggest holder of monopoles for organised crime there is, the state, always is a crime in itself, an exercise in arbitrary looting and plundering. I can only recommend everybody affected by this madness: go on strike, don't work, don't move a single finger, evade taxes, dodge the tax police, and get out of that f###ing country.

If i were a factory owner, I would shut it down or sell it, and if the state does not let me - they seem to have such a law in socialist paradise France - I would burn it down and leave them plunderers nothing but scorched earth. I am too sick of this sh!t to play the submissive obedient victim anymore.

Its all becoming a socialist planned economy, where no wealth is distributed unequally, but only poverty is shared by everybody equally. Even in Germany, where we have seen two murderous socialist tyrannies within 60 years that both ruined he country down to the bones, people applaud for going the same way down the drain once again.

Descartes and Rousseau are not dead at all. It seems they are more alive than ever.

[Gerald]

In Sweden it is familiar with high taxes, which has been in years, though not as high as the article above mentions.

[Tchocky]

MURDEROUS SOCIALIST TYRANNY

[Skybird]

In Sweden it is familiar with high taxes, which has been in years, though not as high as the article above mentions.

Add to it the other taxes, hidden and unhidden. VAT, consumer, whatever.

The medieval is not over. We all still ares laves of landlords, just that they do not name themselves landlords anymore. Even if we die, communities - in Germany at least - tax us with fees and taxes, like in the medieval the landlord was compensated with payments from a village or a farm community if one worker died and the landlord thus lost the slave labour of his slave.

No use in achieving, no worth in trying better, harder, finer. The company of swines means that all pearls you can ever produce and polish, will be robbed from you, and thrown before the swines. They turn your working ethics against you, your desire to perform gets abused, your goodwillingness becomes the iron fist with which they grab you by your balls.

No goodwillingness is at order, then. Disobedience. Boycott. Strike. Lets see how far socialism gets when the exploited elites that it wants to milk and milk and then milk more - refuses to deliver elitist performance, giving no more milk that way. See you in the gully, picking up the tiny remains.

Don'T try to do better, it does not pay off. Try to get away with doing less. That is the new parole. That's progress! :up: Oh wait, we have had all that already. Several times. Always ended in chaos, mass poverty, social misery, dysfunctional economies, massive corruption, social desintegration, and worse.

Cars made in Germany, were a symbol of quality. There were two types of German engineers, those in the West, and those in Eastgermany. Both were qualified, and blessed with human creativity. When you wanted a car, the Western engineer led you to the parking place and showed you dozens and hundreds of car models of exquisite quality. When you wanted to buy a car in the East, they showed you a Wartburg or a Trabant, both of inferior, hopelessly uncompetitive quality. In few colours that all were so dismal that it made you wanting to commit suicide. And for which you had to wait months, if not years, if you could afford to buy it. That well the government knew how to plan human demand and planned economy.

Governments know it better! Economies must be planned! Hail to our new feudal masters!

[Skybird]

MURDEROUS SOCIALIST TYRANNY

Indeed. Responsible for the death of over a hundred million people in the past 100 years, and the imprisonment and suppression of so many more.

And always mocking these losses and minimising them by insisting that they were only "accidents" due to the socialism not having been "true socialism", and not "finished socialism, and socialism suffering from "starting problems" or deformation caused by criminals resisting to it. Once full and true socialism is there, it all will be so very much better. All misery socialism causes - its opponents are claimed to be responsible for. All mess it created is due to socialism not having been true socialism.

Ah, good to know the latter. More socialism then, please! The past disasters still have not been devastating enough.

[MH]

In Sweden it is familiar with high taxes, which has been in years, though not as high as the article above mentions.

You get a lot of money back invested in education and social benefits for the citizens.
Don't you?

[Catfish]

You do not really think our Merkelocracy will be any better ? :dead:

[Gerald]

You get a lot of money back invested in education and social benefits for the citizens.
Don't you?Of course, but we must keep in mind that for every 100 crown note you may have to pay more in taxes and what you earn, what is there in this?, To work more when pretty much anything goes in tax, there should be a better system so that it pays to work, and not be at home and live on welfare, which some do for they know that they are earning more on this.This is as you know, been discussed for many years, regarding the Swedish tax system no news, now it is late a number of years back, completely different times of prosperity and education, everything costs money, and because the increased influx of new citizens to the country, 've done that welfare does not live up to it once was, so they private alternatives has taken over.

[Skybird]

You do not really think our Merkelocracy will be any better ? :dead:

52%. That is the mean the statistically averaged German worker/employee gets stolen from his monthly income in hidden and unhidden taxes and mandatory fees. According to calculations from mid-year 2013.

Just to make this one clear: even just 1% stolen makes robbery not any less a robbery.

You are German, I have a booktip for you. Roland Baader: "Totgedacht. Warum Intellektuelle unsere Welt zerstören." Lasersharp analysis of why the elites, education, media and mainstream spirit, the "intellectuals" and what we call in German the Feuilleton, are so extremely left-leaning, pro-socialism and anti-freedom today. Laser-guided in wording: sharp, direct, uncompromised, merciless. Many very good books by him, this one I always considered to be one of his most profound, for it describes the intellectual basis (or lack of) of the disaster unfolding around us today, focussing especially on the specific German conditions. He just died too early, voices like this are rare, and desperately needed.

[Jimbuna]

Two year ago I was in the 40% bracket but next April I'll be excused from paying any tax.

[Gerald]

Two year ago I was in the 40% bracket but next April I'll be excused from paying any tax. Lucky ya :cool:

[Skybird]

No special and consumption taxes in Britain...? VAT? Energy? Alcohol, tobacco, luxury? Copy tax? Social insurance, mandatory health care? And whatever exotic local habits you have in Britain additionally?

In Germany we have currently over 60 taxes that every citizen is subject to - additional to income taxes (62, to be precise). I cannot imagine there is any democratic state having substantially less. Sucking blood, eh, I mean money is the only way democratic regimes can exist. Beside printing money and devaluing it and raising debt limits, all of which the taxed slaves also must pay for, with expropriation.

[Jimbuna]

Oh yeah I felt really lucky lining the purse of HMRC :o

[Schroeder]

52%. That is the mean the statistically averaged German worker/employee gets stolen from his monthly income in hidden and unhidden taxes and mandatory fees.
Yeah, totally stolen! We don't get anything in return at all!:/\\!!
We all had to pay for our education, we have to pay to use the roads, the police and fire fighters won't move unless we can assure them to be able to pay for their services, the Bundeswehr has ceased to exist, my parents never got any support for raising their children and I don't get any unemployment money whatsoever. The world sucks! :/\\!!



I hope the irony was clear!:shifty:

[Tchocky]

It may not have been clear enough.

[Catfish]

Re Skybird,
i would not consider myself a socialist or communist, they failed with the typical personnell that comes to power in those systems. But blatant locust capitalism does not get my vote either.
At present, i have more of a problem with the right wingers, they just overtake the classic left ideas and do the same BS themselves.

But it is not 'the politicians. We have no democracy in Germany after 1945, never had.

" ... Als die Gründerväter der Bundesrepublik Deutschland über das neu zu gründende Staatsgebilde nachdachten, entschieden sie sich für eine besonders rigide Variante der repräsentativen Demokratie, in der die Repräsentanten des Volks sehr viel zu entscheiden haben und das Volk selbst so gut wie nichts zu sagen hat. ..."

Nor had others:
http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/40/40546/1.html
http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/40/40574/1.html

Cheers,
Catfish

[XabbaRus]

Just read the article and noticed a paragraph taken up about the football players and clubs. Boohoo poor footy players are going to have to pay massive taxes. They're overpaid anyway. And the clubs complaining they're financially fragile. Well they have themselves to blame by paying huge salaries in the first place. LIke UK clubs are in debt due to wages. Although I agree that 75% is ridiculous it will affect a small percentage. What's the bets that those earning over the threshold have a clever accountant to get them out of it. I know in the UK I would if I was on that sort of money.

[Stealhead]

Here in the US the NFL is tax exempt.

[Skybird]

Yeah, totally stolen! We don't get anything in return at all!:/\\!!
We all had to pay for our education, we have to pay to use the roads, the police and fire fighters won't move unless we can assure them to be able to pay for their services, the Bundeswehr has ceased to exist, my parents never got any support for raising their children and I don't get any unemployment money whatsoever. The world sucks! :/\\!!



I hope the irony was clear!:shifty:
My school and education has been payed for at the time by the taxes of my father. The roads were built on grounds that should have been private, and politicians or "states" have no legal claim to own them and thus charge a fee for their use, I also would like to be asked whether I want a road to be build in my name and at my cost before I get blackmailed to straighten the bill. Better than tax-financing of public stuff (which is only meant to give the political and bureaucratic parasites a basis for living at the cost of all others) would be to leave costs for roadbuilding to merchantmen's and traders' action and organisation, and them organising it, and then calculating the costs into their product's prices - that would be in conformity with market logic and would mean that road building, product formats and production methods all compete on the market. The state must not compete at all - it sets prices for its inferior services which are too high, and never gets held accountable for it. Firefighters should be employed by local communities only, what they often are, or the do it voluntarily - oh wait, the EU just came with a new legislation that will ban voluntary firefighters - a specific pillar int he German system - on grounds of working hours exceeded (the EU wants to add hours from voluntary engagement by private people to their regular job workload and so have them all exceeding allowed working hours - and btw what has the dictators of the EU to regulate in the german local firefighter organization and in the question of how private people decide to spend their private time for what purposes???? Police is the stormtroop of the big monopolist for violence, expropriation and tailoring the law to its liking: the state. i would prefer more private security companies needing to compete in this area. In capitalism, competition and free price fixing is key, monopolism (by companies or the state) is death of freedom. And the Bundeswehr was enslaving young men at will of our political masters and stole some time of their lives and now it is send into operations that I do not support, that I oppose, and that I see no reason why I should pay for them. Like yourself, I do not take and never have taken any state subsidies and financial aids or reliefs, I pay more into health insurance than I cost the system due to the drugs I take, and my family, despite having suffered huge losses in wealth (due to a 3 year legal battle with parts of our distant hostile family), is all by itself and also not getting any aid, nor wanting it.

You note it: the socalled "Umlagesystem" I despise and call a criminal exploitation of the young, and the socalled "Generationenvertrag" is a treaty that was never put before me and which i never have signed nor was I ever asked about nor have I ever given it my acceptance.

I owe nobody nothing, and made sure for that. My loyalties to some people are voluntary decisions by myself. Me having to pay for a thousand things I do not want, that I oppose, on which i do not get asked, is an exploitation on the grounds that the state can send moire men with rifles against me than I an send against it. Else I would tell the state "F.U." Its no issue decided by morals or (corrupted) laws, but the comparing of pure brutal force - and I am weaker than the parasites.

Free market negotiating of demand and offer and price fixing is what makes people free. Socialist planned economies and state regulation of the market is what makes them unfree. Today, practically all aspects of our lives are regulated by th state: health, education,m work, finances - everything. Even the market is heavily regulated and planned. Capitalism is giving chance to everybody, and those who adapot to the market's demands win, and those unable to adapt loose. Fair chance. The only thing that destroy this, is not capitalism itself, but the distortion of and big threat to capitalism: monopolism. It is inherent in caiptalism, yes, it is an existential antagonist like death is to evertyhing that lives. And like life tries on to push back deathl, freedom-loving people must be ion guard to not allow monopolism. And that includes to not allow states, the biggest monopolists of all.

Le tthere be free trading between the people. LKet there be their nown responsibilit yin how they organise and what vlaue they contirbute to what offerings. You see in history that wherever this was the case, there was peace, and prosperity and wealth, and freedom. And where kings and republics appeared to regulate all this and erected controlling regimes, peace and freedom, prosperity and wealth got destroyed, and often it led to war.

Trading people do not want wars. Weapon traders being the exception, maybe.

Key is to prevent the erection of monopoles, and to ensure a design of interaction that guarantees that there will always be alternatives to any offer, producer, price. Of all Mafias there are, states are the biggest, the worst and the most destructive and dangerous. And ask yourself who is declaring wars. Ordinary people doing their business in their shops in the street - or somebody else?

[August]

My school and education has been payed for at the time by the taxes of my father.

Who paid for your fathers school and education?

[Skybird]

Re Skybird,
i would not consider myself a socialist or communist, they failed with the typical personnell that comes to power in those systems. But blatant locust capitalism does not get my vote either.
Nor does it get mine. See what I said about monopolism and capitalism. Capitalism is the guarantee of private property and freedom. Monopolism destroys both. Socialism doers so as well.

The left, career politicians and "Beamte" benefit diretcly from the illusiuon that thigns must be controleld and reuglated by them, else they would not have a living, because they have nothign to offer that would allow them to be compoettitve on a market where people, products, goods and ideas and skills compete freely for best offers. They are loosers. And that is why they hate the market so much and call it evil: it unmasks their incompetence and uselessness and bigmouthed megalomania. The pendulum of the enlightenment swings back where Descartes accentuation of reason and reaosnability is understood as that the market instead can be planned, can be designed - where thew simple truth is that it is undertstood by nobody how it functions, we just see that it functions if left to itself, and that it becomens a mess where we want to plan it for the better, like you do not stirr a glass of muddy water to infkle3unce how the mud settles, but leave it to itself. It has been far more knowing and expere3inced minds than me who wrote whole books about this: that yoiu cannot know and plan the market, but that the market organbises itself, and that it is best to leave it to that. Hayek on mind, for example. But these minds would end the poltii8cans tyranny over the peopole by bringing end to the paper money system anbd endless money pri8nting of worthless billets, and so they got not listened to, got ridicukled and ignored from all beginning on, no matter the areguments of theirs that in orinciple until today have not been resounded until today. Instead: more cetnral banking to "plan" the unfolding of the paper money system, and more planning of the people'S motivations and the market and the economy. That is what gives politicans the opportunity to claim offices and privileges, to dance at exclusive parties and shine before the cameras.

Yopu cannot and should not accuse capitalism for the deformations of it: monopolism, and what you called locust capitalism.

[Skybird]

Who paid for your fathers school and education?
Nobody, he had none worth the name. The family fled from the Russiasn from former Sudetenland, and did an odyssey through German cities that all did not want to host the many war refugees. His visiting of the music school where he learned his profession - he played bassoon in the German Symphony Orchestra Berlin) was payed by his father. The whole family suffered for those costs. The elder brother had to go to the German navy early so that he would not have to be fed at home.

But in principle, I question the whole "Umlagesystem" (no translation found) that you refer to, and I do not accept it anymore, because it is endless abuse of the young, for the costs for the later generations always are higher than for the earlier ones. Like you pay today for the food you eat today, you should also have your parents pay for your education now instead of somebody else paying for it, and you later paying EVEN MORE for somebody else's education. Its one huge robbery abusing generation after generation. And the maths do not work, btw. It should be evident for everybody to see today. Else that somebody still has not heard the echo of the shots of the past five years. Like anything else in the papermoney world, the "Umlagesystem" is one huge snowballing system as well. And necessarily there comes the day when the balloon goes burst.

It is two different morals colliding here, the morals that are valid in context of small special circles, families, friends, very small communities where people know each other and are more or less "intimate". And the anonymous mega-context of state societies. The morals of the first context, family, say that the adults care for the kids and the younger adults for the elder people. All fine. But in state context, that is not wanted, especially not amongst socialists and state planners, because it leaves responsibility over their lives to the people and thus doe snot give those who want to govern them any control over them, also, the socialist'S wet dream, the one big social collective were strangers are as close and intimate than real families, cannot be enforced with family still being intact and in place. So there comes the plan to destroy burgoise society by destroying families (Marx) and the currency (Lenin). In Germany, the spocilaists now want to push plöans for mandatory state child caretaking from the first year on. Children, so many in the SPD want it, should, be taken out of families from first birthday on and be given into state run kindergarden, where they get taken care of by foreign "experts" of - in Germany traditionally very left leaning - educational professions (calling mothers mothers is sexual discrimination, fathers do not count anyway since they are sexual predators of limited intellectual capacity and in general parents and families cannot be trusted to be able to raise children that they love and wished for, so the state has to intervene here as well, like everywhere else). Children do not like that at all, getting separated from others at that age, they are afraid by it, they hate it and become desperate, but no matter, the individual counts nothing, the collective and the proper brain washing is all. Also, the earlier the mother looses her child, the earlier she can go back into a job and create a tax income that can be used by politicians to pay for all their wonderful things and self-promoting brilliance.

The morals of the national society must and should be limited to banning of crime, and that everything is equal before the laws. Any solidarity that gets mandatorily asked of from you that you should have just for any stranger with whom you have nothing to do, prevents solidarity, because you can only be solidaric by your own voluntary decision (that makes socialists' blood boil hot), solidarity that gets blackmailed from you, is demanded totalitarian conformity. You cannot run a state by the morals valid for family context without turning that state into a tyranny where freedom is destroyed. You have to keep both separate.

Now compare to what they do in reality, and cry. It's a nightmare that slowly creeps on and on, and pie e by piece the most vital pillars of a true moral social contexts get destroyed - in the name of "social justice" and "solidarity" in the abuse of terms in socialist understanding. Which is pure cynism.

We had the Thousand-Years-Reich, and the everliving Soviet Union/German Democratic Republic. Two times socialism in just sixty years, two times monumental fails (and I do not even refer to the bloodbaths). Now we have iron pledges for the Thousand-Years-Currency and vows for the European Democratic Union. Life is running in always the same circles.

[August]

Nobody, he had none worth the name. The family fled from the Russiasn from former Sudetenland, and did an odyssey through German cities that all did not want to host the many war refugees.

Well maybe he didn't have a good quality education but it sounds like he got one nonetheless.

[Tribesman]

Every day in every way I am astounded by the sheer scale of the self contradictory absolute nonsense produced by Skybird, it is quite an achievement.
I must say I am fascinated by this new EU law which is going to ban civil defence programs:rotfl2:

[the_tyrant]

Income Tax in France goes up to 75%?:o

you know what, this is one of the few times where i would say welcome to Canada! Enjoy our lower taxes!

Here in the US the NFL is tax exempt.

You know what, i think its probably for the best. The NFL itself as a league makes sense to be a non-profit. In fact, if it was a for profit organization, it would raise some problems.

If it was a traditional for profit corporation, then it would be pushed by shareholders to rig the playoffs for maximum profit. It would lead to allegations of league manipulation like the NBA ( http://www.ibtimes.com/nba-rigged-rumors-league-fixed-fly-finals-begin-1295675 )

Most industry governing bodies work this way. The IEEE, Comptia, etc are all non-profit to ensure that there are no biases in the industry, same with the NFL. However, that does not mean the individual teams are non-profit (the only one in the NFL is the Greenbay Packers).

Just like how members and companies that associate with the IEEE all make money, engineering is a hugely profitable industry after all, the IEEE itself is non-profit. The NFL is the same, the teams make money, the players make money, the refs make money, the stadium operators make money, the officials make money, but the league doesn't.

[Tchocky]

Seems to be the only thing more MURDEROUS and TYRANNICAL than running up debt is paying it off.




The morals of the national society must and should be limited to banning of crime, and that everything is equal before the laws.
Except homosexuals. They don't qualify.

We had the Thousand-Years-Reich, and the everliving Soviet Union/German Democratic Republic. Two times socialism in just sixty years, two times monumental fails (and I do not even refer to the bloodbaths). Now we have iron pledges for the Thousand-Years-Currency and vows for the European Democratic Union. Life is running in always the same circles.
Now you're just making stuff up.

[STEED]

And into the UK they come...:rolleyes:

[Tribesman]

Since the first post is considered insulting for dealing with the complete crap that was written I shall stick with.

Now you're just making stuff up. :yep:

[Skybird]

Well maybe he didn't have a good quality education but it sounds like he got one nonetheless.

None he owes the public or the state compensation for. And he payed more taxes in his life than just to compensate for what he took from the state, or for my education. The losses have been higher than the benefits. Even his pension income today - only is to less than a fifth due to state pension fonds which he financed by his life-long taxes, and to 80% is private insurance (classical musicians in Germany after the war used to have these things differently organsied than the majority of employees after the war, a special characteristic in post war Germany, different to explain in full detail).

It does not matter, August. The system of having other generations caring for yourself, and you caring for other generation (parents care for kids, adult kids care for old parents) works in families, and intimate social communities. On levels of states and nations, it gets chnaged into the "Umlagesystem", an anonymisation and deletion of personal responsibility within families, it is fincial exploitation of the young and thus criminal, and it always is at the cost of the following generations, since those coming later always are confronted with ever growing costs and burdens, thanks to our fantastic paper money illusion and every stampeding socialist construction of society.

My grandfather - not to mention that his youth is outside the context of the Federal Republic - never complained, but suffered far more losses than he won gains in his life. The war turned an athlete who almost mad eit into the nOlympic team, into a cripple. His kind, simple character was absued by "colleagus and false friends. He was betrayed in promotion processes, and goodheartedly did the work of others additionally to his own - for free. In a way he was a stupid man, one oif the type that has a good heart and simpole cannot deal with an absuive, chetaing world, if you know what I mean. You can take it for certain that he owed nothing to nobody when he died. Nor do my parents. Nor do I. And for what I take and buy and get and claim today, I always pay what the other side demands. And then I have to pay some more for things I have not asked for, do not want, have no word in, and consider to be overpriced, but I cannot avoid it, for it comes down to a simple comparison of strengths: the state'S, and mine. Finally, I logged several years when I worked in different functions as councelor, psychologist, trainer - FOR FREE. After that I did a couple of jobs that sometimes were hard or stressful work, sometime sless so, but always primtive and extremely low payed.

Some time ago I became seriopusly ill, and that was at a time when I had risen doubts in myself that this cannot be it: to allow getting exploited at other people's gain, and spend working time for nothing but idealism, no payment. Since then I quit working formally, and live by savings and some modest family wealth. Today, I have two other mottos than ten and 15 years ago. "Stuff must cost", and "You want my fair work, you pay me fair money."

I ask nothing for myself from the state, nor do I accept anything for free. I live at nobody's expenses. I owe to my moral conscience, and I owe to my parents - beyond that I owe nothing to nobody anymore, my claimed debts have been more than straightened, but overcompensated for. I kick everybody out my door who tries to tell me otherwise. If you think this undermines your understanding or concept of a state - be assured I hope it does. If the things I have posted over the past years and especially the past 12 months (about economy and liberalism and democracy always turning into socialist dictatorship and democracy necessarily always fostering the worst in politicians) would make me drawing any other consequence than to wish for national states and international suprastate structures breaking down - I would contradict myself or illustrate that I have not understood what the things I am saying do mean in consequence. Different to you, democratic states to me are no solution, nor the smallest evil amongst all government formats. To me, it is the fundament of the problems we have, and since other forms of states and government - sometimes - only slightly reduce the harms that come from democracy, the only consequence can be to conclude that we would be better off if we learn to get along without any national state structures and democratic systems (and murderous religious cults of conquests, to complete the list) as we understand both terms today. Some of the most blossoming eras of European culture and history unfolded in contexts where there was neither democracy and free elections, nor national statehood. Most of Europe's finests arts and quite a big load of Europe'S finest in philosophic achievments stem from these. This although the continental environment was war-torn and grim and cruel for many.

It is a lie to say democracy is the best there is, and that we cannot organsise peaceful life without national states. A lie fostered by the benefitting parasites who claim control and power by making everybody believe in these lies. But our wealth corrodes and breaks away, our societies turn more and more into hypercontrolled and morally tyrannised dictatorships, free market practically does not exist anymore, and more and more is replaced with state-run planned economies or corrupted by lobbyism and monopolism (monopoles that often the ruling political elites benefit of), and our brilliant fiscal debt system - this sadistic carricature of a currency - explodes right into our faces. The ship is sinking, and once a critical threshold amount of water has flooded the inside, the ship no longer slowly swings to the side, but all of a sudden goes extremely fast into a rollover and then head dive. The crashdive still may be some years away, may last for years in itself, like Rome did not die in two years and the Warsaw Pact'S economy stumbled along for another two decades after it was effectively broken down in the early 70s already. But our clothes already are dripping with water and we need to grab the ropes to not lose balance when walking the deck.

[Tchocky]

Not to get too far into personal criticism but it seems that a little less remote observation, and a little more actual participation might straighten out some of this overly wordy millenarian gobbledygook.

[Skybird]

I participate at my own choice, and I chose when not to participate, like I have chosen to get voluntarily engaged in past, unpayed work, and later decided that it was time to stop that. Nobody has a claim to make for my participation, engagement, working potential on the grounds that I was born and do exist. Because if there would be such a claim, it would mean that people get born as slaves of others, and are owing obedience to others for the mere fact of that they exist. But nobody exists for the purpose of being abused by another. Nobody is born to be the slave of somebody else. My only obligation is that I shall not live at the cost and expense of the other. Whether the other likes my way of living or not on grounds of his moral rules, is totally unimportant. Because his morals are for his own imminent social sphere, to regulate his ties within his family, peer group, the people next to him to which he feels close. But in the anonymous public space where strangers meet and interact, often for abstract purposes only, personal morals are not what counts, but laws, and the laws should be minimalistic in containing individual morals. Moral behaviour is the claim for certain standards and rules that I make towards myself, the law is what makes claims towards all, without difference, because before the laws everybody should be equal, regardless his individual moral views.

I have had my share of voluntary, free engagements where I "participated". Nothing wrong with that. Because it were my choices back then to do so. Today, my choices are different. And nothign wrong with that choice either. It shows that I still can learn and correct own mistakes that I did earlier.

I would even say to resist the state and the current "system", to refuse to legitimate it and to support it and to participate in it, is an ethical imperative if terms and ideas like freedom, self-responsibility, voluntary decisions made by non-owing people should have any meaning.

[Aktungbby]

At 62 and on my government stipend...:agree:

[QUOTE=Skybird;2157400]The medieval is not over. Hail to our new feudal masters!Yup; bend the knee; brown the nose and tug the forelock; Funny how D-Day was called OVERLORD! nuthin' really changes and yer 'Arbeit ain't Frei!

52%. That is the mean the statistically averaged German worker/employee gets stolen from his monthly income in hidden and unhidden taxes and mandatory fees. According to calculations from mid-year 2013. TRY LIVING IN SUNNY CALIFORNIA...61%; AND WAITING TO COLLECT A STATE PENSION IF IT EVEN WILL EXIST; then I'm movin' to Park City, UT to gaze down on the gilded angel Moroni with the jack Mormon inlaws as retirees cannot afford CA except in mobile home parks or under bridges.

Two year ago I was in the 40% bracket but next April I'll be excused from paying any tax. I too crossed the finish line in the fiscal regatta of life...I think; and my earning limit just got raised to $15,400 in 2014...the blessings of liberty if ever! And thank GOD for the pitter-patter of little immigrant feet(new slaves) to pay for it all. Their 'arbeit really ain't frei' cause their payin' it to me! :timeout:

The world sucks! I hope the irony was clear!:shifty: On a spinning axis at a thousand mph! enjoy das ride!

Not to get too far into personal criticism but it seems that a little less remote observation, and a little more actual participation might straighten out some of this overly wordy millenarian gobbledygook. Verbosity iss ubiquitous :O: Free speech is an unassailable rare and treasured right of the overburdened taxee...In :subsim: and out of :subsim::o:rotfl2:!That's why it's AMENDMENT #1! The right to bitch about the enabled rich!

I participate at my own choice, and I chose when not to participate, It shows that I still can learn and correct own mistakes that I did earlier. Enjoy that rare privilege while it lasts and your memory holds up sans amyloid plaque!:doh:

[Tchocky]

Skybird, you do realise that paid work exists and can exist at no moral cost?
You know, work that pays the mortgage and puts food on the table.

Me, I stop airplanes crashing into each other.

Doesn't keep me awake at night worrying about socialist tyranny.

[the_tyrant]

You know what, rethink the argument from a different perspective.

Fundamentally, government is part of the service industry. You pay taxes, you obtain services.


And thus, governments are constrained by the same forces that govern the rest of the service industry. Traditionally, those constraints were invisible, since the government holds a 100% regional monopoly. (ever tried to set up your own government as "competition"? They would send the military to suppress your rebellion!)

However, nowadays with increased mobility, we need to rethink the relationship.


First of all, the fundamental relationship is that you pay taxes to obtain government services. Do you think the services are "overpriced"? You can move! My old cellphone provider's service quality went down the drain, and their prices increased, so I switched. Sure, there are trade offs (new house, new jobs, new relationships, new language, new citizenship, etc.), but if you want to, you can surely do it.

In fact, I moved quite a bit myself. My family used to live in Beijing, but the air quality was getting progressively worse, most of my dad's friends ended up with lung cancer, we don't live there anymore. Sure, moving is a big decision, but fundamentally, its just like how I would no longer go to a restaurant if the dining environment has gone down.


If you still hate the government, have you tried campaigning for the politician you like? Making campaign donations? committing electoral fraud for the candidate? This is just like saying you hate a company so much, you start buying shares in it, until you control the board of directors. Sure, it ain't easy, but if you are powerful enough, it can be done!


Finally, you still aren't satisfied? you can always launch a military coup and install your own government. Sure, there is the military, the police, and the supporters of the previous regime. But again, there are lots of successful military coups and rebellions out there. Don't like it? Kill em all! It is a technique that does work.



My rule of thumb is, no matter what product or service it is, if you say "this is a rip off", and yet you still buy it, you are voting with your wallet and saying "I'm still willing to buy it".

Don't like it? don't buy it. Switch service providers. Move to Belgium or something. Still don't like it? Change it, vote the politicians out of office, launch your own military coup.

Still don't like it? But you're still "buying the service"? Well life isn't fair buddy, take it like a man.

[XabbaRus]

Death and taxes. The only guarantees in life. Seriously Skybird what world do you live in? I read your polemics and just don't get it. No one likes paying taxes but they pay for mine and my families healthcare, my childrens' education etc. it's something called society. I bitch about how the family over the road are working the benefits system however at the same time I know it's there to help if I fall on hard times.

Btw do you actually work?