View Full Version : Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood declared Terrorist Organization
CaptainHaplo
12-25-13, 06:48 PM
Well Merry Christmas, Middle East!
Bout time! The Egyptian government has declared the MB to be a gang of terrorists. This will have a significant impact on coming election - much to the good I suspect.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/12/25/egypt-declares-muslim-brotherhood-terrorist-group/
Why is it about time and why do you think it will have a good impact on the Egyptian elections?
CaptainHaplo
12-25-13, 07:43 PM
A fair question, Tarjak. And one I probably should have answered without being asked.
The MB was, under Mubarak, outlawed. When he was deposed and elections were held, the MB was elected to power after defining themselves as moderate. After achieving primary political power however, the MB began pursuing governmental positions that indicated a more "extreme" translation of Islam than they initially promised. It became so bad that after roughly one year, the MB was removed from power by mass demonstrations and the actions of the Egyptian military in accordance with the will of the Egyptian people.
Specifically, the MB lead by Morsi - attempted multiple drastic changes to the Egyptian Constitution, some of which would have enshrined a very specific type of sharia law, provided the president with dictatorial powers, etc.
The MB have called for and been the source of violence against Christians.
http://www.investigativeproject.org/4127/muslim-brotherhood-memo-blesses-egyptian-church
http://www.christianpost.com/news/churches-burned-in-egypt-as-muslim-brotherhood-targets-coptic-christians-amid-widespread-unrest-video-102391/
So why is this good for Egyptians?
It means that they have spoken, don't want an extremist government, and now their political process will not be muddied by those who have already proven that their agenda is all about power and religious intolerance.
It means that the next election in Egypt has a much higher chance of creating a secular government focused on what is good for the people of Egypt.
Skybird
12-25-13, 08:01 PM
Egypt never was secular, Haplo, not under Mubarak, and not before. Christians always were the scapegoats of Muslim society, pogroms were quite frequent, and still are, legal discrimination is in practical life the norm. During the Mubarak years and after that, over 80% of the population were expressing strong sympathy with views on an Islamic state as demanded by the MB.
The MB is one of the most deeply rooting support networks of international Islamic extremism and terrorism. They tried to give themselves a friendly face during their election campaign,m but that was deception only, deception meant for the audience in Europe especially. The involvement and influence of the MB in international Islamic terrorism and extremism can hardly be overestimated.
Also note that the population is kind of split i its appreciation of the current Egyptian rulers. This decision today is none made by the people, or in their name. It is expression of a merciless powerstruggle between the military and the rich corrupt elite living by it, and the MB.
In the long run, I expect to see a more or less unhidden military dictatorship again in Egypt, much like the regime by Mubarak. But that is much better still than having the MB planting its seeds from governmental offices, unobjected and perfectly and legal by the abused law's letter. Legal, and reasonable, are two totally different things. And the value of moral rules gets decided not by laws, but the reasonability of people's deeds and decisions. A military dictatorship and the nepotism and corruption in its wake, is the far lesser evil of the two.
I think the same about Turkey, where now the power struggle between the Gülen movement and the AKP has broken out openly. My advice would be: military coup, and then cracking down hard on both AKP and Gülen as well.
I agree that they're not a force for good. (No political party is imo). But I struggle to find any direct terrorist action they're responsible for hence my disquiet at them being outlawed. It seems more to do with political power playing in Egypt than for any good reason.
I don't want to see them regain power if the people over there don't want them. But isn't that the people to choose and not an interim governments choice?
The Egyptian people I know of both Christian and Muslim persuasion are concerned they are seeing more of the same with the likely outcome being another Mubarek or Morsi coming to power. The problem they see is that the more moderate candidates on both sides are not popular meaning the extreme views tend to be the ones that attract the votes.
Don't know what the solution is but suspect that this action is likely to increase the popularity of the extremists views resulting more violent reactions.
If there's proof of MB involvement in terror, then the government should show it before declaring an organisation as criminal.
CaptainHaplo
12-25-13, 11:16 PM
Tarjack - the second link I provided links to a MB memo that encourages violence against Christians.
Remember Benghazi? Gotta love the video that has someone involved yelling "Don't shoot! Dr. Morsi sent us!"
Details here:
http://www.examiner.com/article/libyan-official-claims-egypt-s-ex-president-morsi-behind-benghazi-attack
Some of us are not surprised at all..
Is this from the same source that claims Obama has links ro MB?
http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-linked-to-egyptian-muslim-brotherhood
The link you mentioned may not hold muxh credence given the source. Coming from a known ant-islamic loony bin like IPT, I'm surprised that they are not claiming stronger "evidence". http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/investigative-project-on-terrorism/
CaptainHaplo
12-26-13, 02:49 AM
Tell you what, Tarjak....
Regarding the connection between Obama and the MB.....
Will you argue with Telani Al-Jebali (al Gebali), the former Chancellor of the Constitutional Court of Egypt?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHFD3pijqYc
Translation quoted:
Justice al Gebali: I, I am opposed to the idea that we're going to defend/be on defense. I think we're going to attack/go on the offense. The Egyptian Diplomatic Organization has to have the guts to address them (presumably the countries criticizing Egypt) as defendants who should be sitting in the defendant's cage. Because these countries that are inciting the international community against us are guilty as evidenced by proof and (various) documents possessed by the Egyptian National Security agencies, and this proof should be published when all the cards are on the table, to show which intelligence agencies have been funding this International Organization (of the MB); where do Britain, France and Germany stand; where does the U.S. stand; what and how much has been spent on the MB to push them to the point of ruling Egypt; what is going on with the investments of the IOMB; how is Obama's brother (a piece of information that we can gift to the American people) one of the architects of the IOMB investments...
Host: Repeat please. A gift to the American people. Obama's half-brother is...
Gebali: One of the architects of the IOMB investments. As for debunking IPT, linking to a group who admit they are merely bloggers and who choose to label those they disagree with using pejoratives such as "loons" isn't exactly a using compelling and credible source. When folks have to result to insults instead of respectful debate, it is an indication that a detailed examination of the facts do not support their position. It is the old play - if you can't discredit the facts, sidetrack the argument by discrediting the messenger. In fact, I wouldn't doubt a certain member of Subsim would be an excellent addition to their group.
Examing the article you linked shows it has a glaring and obvious flaw in its stance that demonstrates they are more interested in spin than fact....
The blog quotes a study that tracked federal indictments of American Islamic terrorists, noting that the number of indictments dropped. While that is accurate, it fails to take into account the POLITICAL dimension - the reality that the current administration has no desire to prosecute domestic terrorists. After all, it is not the American muslim you should fear, it is the evil "rich" white conservative male with a gun who hates the old, the poor and any immigrant. Prosecuting larger numbers of muslims would be counterproductive to the message that the administration wants to propagate. Remember - this is a Justice Department that called the Ft. Hood shooting a case of "workplace violence" instead of an act of domestic terror. So big surprise the number of indictments on domestic terror are down......
One need only look at Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, or Egypt to see that the current administration has no intent on ending the war on Islamic terror and extremism with anything remotely resembling victory. Or are every one of those issues simply "fodder for the loonies"?
Tribesman
12-26-13, 04:09 AM
One only has to look at the actions taken by the military dictatorship against the anti morsi groups who they claim gave them the authority for staging the coup to see the nature of the beast which haplo thinks is wonderful:doh:
All the military are managing to do with this "outlawing" is further shred the illusions of legitimacy which some people still swallow, and further strengthen the MB.:down:
Translation quoted:
why does your quoted translation end before the question?
Tell you what, Tarjak....
Regarding the connection between Obama and the MB.....
Will you argue with Telani Al-Jebali (al Gebali), the former Chancellor of the Constitutional Court of Egypt?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHFD3pijqYc
Translation quoted:
As for debunking IPT, linking to a group who admit they are merely bloggers and who choose to label those they disagree with using pejoratives such as "loons" isn't exactly a using compelling and credible source. When folks have to result to insults instead of respectful debate, it is an indication that a detailed examination of the facts do not support their position. It is the old play - if you can't discredit the facts, sidetrack the argument by discrediting the messenger. In fact, I wouldn't doubt a certain member of Subsim would be an excellent addition to their group.
Examing the article you linked shows it has a glaring and obvious flaw in its stance that demonstrates they are more interested in spin than fact....
The blog quotes a study that tracked federal indictments of American Islamic terrorists, noting that the number of indictments dropped. While that is accurate, it fails to take into account the POLITICAL dimension - the reality that the current administration has no desire to prosecute domestic terrorists. After all, it is not the American muslim you should fear, it is the evil "rich" white conservative male with a gun who hates the old, the poor and any immigrant. Prosecuting larger numbers of muslims would be counterproductive to the message that the administration wants to propagate. Remember - this is a Justice Department that called the Ft. Hood shooting a case of "workplace violence" instead of an act of domestic terror. So big surprise the number of indictments on domestic terror are down......
One need only look at Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, or Egypt to see that the current administration has no intent on ending the war on Islamic terror and extremism with anything remotely resembling victory. Or are every one of those issues simply "fodder for the loonies"?
When the messenger says things like this it's no wonder he makes himself a target:
If I had to guess, based on what I know, based on my experience and this is all anecdotal, I would say to you at least thirty to forty percent support cultural jihad. That is, at least, they support the notion that it’s ok to blow up a bus of Israelis, it’s ok to bomb the World Trade Center, it’s ok to impose the Sharia, the code of Islamic law, it’s ok to beat women or wives, as part of the Sharia.
Back OT, however given this move is purely political and not based on any facts that the Egyptian Interim Administration has actually mentioned I'd suggest that its probably not a good thing for the Egyptian people, the majority of which voted for MB in the first place. Put yourself in their shoes. Obama the "tyrant" decides to outlaw the GOP. Then tell me that that's OK because the tea party has some pretty radical ideas about violence as well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8y2F8RGzAk No translation required.
In fact, I wouldn't doubt a certain member of Subsim would be an excellent addition to their group.
Also do you have the stones to name names?
Tribesman
12-26-13, 05:51 AM
Also do you have the stones to name names?
Come on Tarjak, its an old play.
Recent example
link
that's crazy white supremacists and their "facts" are easily proved wrong.
link
that's crazy far right loons and their "facts" are wrong
link
more loonies, same "facts", still wrong.
link link link
more rubbish, exactly the same "facts", still wrong and you have already conceded that the "facts" are not facts.
:wah:you only attack the source and don't deal with facts
Simple:up:
Come on Tarjak, its an old play.
Recent example
link
that's crazy white supremacists and their "facts" are easily proved wrong.
link
that's crazy far right loons and their "facts" are wrong
link
more loonies, same "facts", still wrong.
link link link
more rubbish, exactly the same "facts", still wrong and you have already conceded that the "facts" are not facts.
:wah:you only attack the source and don't deal with facts
Simple:up:
True. Still its me birthday, so I felt like a bit of sport.
Tribesman
12-26-13, 06:05 AM
True. Still its me birthday, so I felt like a bit of sport.
Well Happy Birthday, and a Happy St. Stephens day too:Kaleun_Cheers:
Well Happy Birthday, and a Happy St. Stephens day too:Kaleun_Cheers:
Cheers Tribesman.
Buddahaid
12-26-13, 06:54 AM
Cheers Tribesman.
Cheers Tarjak,
Skybird
12-26-13, 06:57 AM
I agree that they're not a force for good. (No political party is imo). But I struggle to find any direct terrorist action they're responsible for hence my disquiet at them being outlawed. It seems more to do with political power playing in Egypt than for any good reason.
I don't want to see them regain power if the people over there don't want them. But isn't that the people to choose and not an interim governments choice?
The Egyptian people I know of both Christian and Muslim persuasion are concerned they are seeing more of the same with the likely outcome being another Mubarek or Morsi coming to power. The problem they see is that the more moderate candidates on both sides are not popular meaning the extreme views tend to be the ones that attract the votes.
Don't know what the solution is but suspect that this action is likely to increase the popularity of the extremists views resulting more violent reactions.
If there's proof of MB involvement in terror, then the government should show it before declaring an organisation as criminal.
The MB is not so much like Hezbollah, openly engaging in violence with its own men (although they do that occasionally as well, and have scored massively in plotted assassinations throughout the Muslim world), but is a provider of ideological fundaments on which many influential trouble makers, from terrorists to policy makers, got brainwashed. If you check some background info on names in the Muslim world being influenced and being in contact with them, you might get an idea of what a Kraken it is. It is more influential, powerful and dangerous than Al Quaeda ever was, it is more clever, as conservative and more cautious in avoiding to get displayed in open acts of terror and violence. Practically all Muslim conservative or radical schools and leaders have ties to, are in contact with or got influenced by the MB. And that list of names goes up to heads of states.
The MB also is an important financier of Islamic terrorism.
Not bad for an organization that has existed for not too long time so far. I rate them as the most dangerous of all - by a huge margin. I have said so since years now.
Whether the MB is itself responsible for the terror strike it gets accused of by the government, or not (another organisdation claims responsibility ofr it, but I do not know whether it has ties to the MB or not), is of little interest, since it is a minor detail. Like the NSDAP does not become a humanistic party because one murder there is that it has not authorized, the MB does not become any less dangerous and radical just because this bomb maybe was not delivered by them.
It's the Middle East. Enough said.
Jimbuna
12-26-13, 06:59 AM
Subscribing.
The MB is not so much like Hezbollah, openly engaging in violence with its own men (although they do that occasionally as well, and have scored massively in plotted assassinations throughout the Muslim world), but is a provider of ideological fundaments on which many influential trouble makers, from terrorists to policy makers, got brainwashed. If you check some background info on names in the Muslim world being influenced and being in contact with them, you might get an idea of what a Kraken it is. It is more influential, powerful and dangerous than Al Quaeda ever was, it is more clever, as conservative and more cautious in avoiding to get displayed in open acts of terror and violence. Practically all Muslim conservative or radical schools and leaders have ties to, are in contact with or got influenced by the MB. And that list of names goes up to heads of states.
The MB also is an important financier of Islamic terrorism.
Not bad for an organization that has existed for not too long time so far. I rate them as the most dangerous of all - by a huge margin. I have said so since years now.
Whether the MB is itself responsible for the terror strike it gets accused of by the government, or not (another organisdation claims responsibility ofr it, but I do not know whether it has ties to the MB or not), is of little interest, since it is a minor detail. Like the NSDAP does not become a humanistic party because one murder there is that it has not authorized, the MB does not become any less dangerous and radical just because this bomb maybe was not delivered by them.
It's the Middle East. Enough said.
I'm not saying that MB are nice people. Simply that I think Haplo's comment that it was a good thing, was a little naive.
I'm bored now and going to bed. :yawn:
CaptainHaplo
12-26-13, 08:57 AM
I'm not saying that MB are nice people. Simply that I think Haplo's comment that it was a good thing, was a little naive.
Tarjak,
First of all, happy birthday! :yeah:
As for thinking that them being outlawed is good or bad, I am curious. Instead of arguing whether it is in fact good or bad, you have instead taken the approach that appears to say they should not have been banned without "proof" of their activities. There is a substantial difference between those two positions.
You asked why I thought it as a good thing - and I answered. By designating them a terror group, it insures that they will not be a direct power in the political process next election. Given their history of actions both while in power and beforehand, they have demonstrated the intent to take Egypt in a direct that the citizenry is against. This is proven by the mass demonstrations that resulted in their removal from power.
If such a position is naïve in your mind, then provide why you think so. That way we can debate the issue on the merits. To this point, you have failed to do so. You have simply disputed the viewpoints of others without offering any substantive points of your own to back your opinion. That is not how a debate or conversation should occur.
It is hardly different than simply going "No, that's wrong" continually. You can do better than that.
Tribesman
12-26-13, 10:03 AM
You asked why I thought it as a good thing - and I answered. By designating them a terror group, it insures that they will not be a direct power in the political process next election.
Since it was already banned then designating it a terrorist organisation has no impact whatsoever on its involvement in the elections.
However it does open the way for the military dictatorship to more widely apply some rather dodgy legal moves they give themselves under martial law.
Why anyone could think that is a good thing is beyond my ken.
Given their history of actions both while in power and beforehand, they have demonstrated the intent to take Egypt in a direct that the citizenry is against. This is proven by the mass demonstrations that resulted in their removal from power.
For it to be proven you would have to show that the demonstrations against the elected government were bigger than those for the elected government
Though for fairness you would have to remove all the anti government protesters who were also demonstrating against a return to military rule...but that would leave you a very small group to make your case wouldn't it :yep:
If such a position is naïve in your mind, then provide why you think so.
What is naïve is your approach and your selection of "facts". Mainly illustrated by your choosing to ignore the tandem measures taken against all the groups who are not the MB.
It is hardly different than simply going "No, that's wrong" continually.
When people refuse to accept information which doesn't fit their "facts" and refuse to adjust their view in light of freely available information which they cannot dispute then "no that's wrong" becomes the only response, and indeed is the only valid response since the proper answer has already been given.
We can argue that letting the democy run natural curse is a best way.
That is MB should hold the legitimately won power , then turn egypt into sunni iran and then...some day egyptian will make another revolution and live happily ever after - tired of islamic laws.
The issue is that egyptians don't want to go through this experiment , its about their lives after all.
So now they , mostly city middle class folks have the military , the lesser evil for them ... their choice very much.
Neither USA or Russia established this regime , no imperialistic motivations here lol
Seems like democracy can work well in very narrow margin :03: , egypt is too much split and messed up.
It can hold together only by going to either extreme as it seems.
nikimcbee
12-26-13, 12:37 PM
Well Merry Christmas, Middle East!
Bout time! The Egyptian government has declared the MB to be a gang of terrorists. This will have a significant impact on coming election - much to the good I suspect.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/12/25/egypt-declares-muslim-brotherhood-terrorist-group/
I'm flaaaaabergasted at this news. I would have never thought the words muslim and terrorist would be used in the same sentence. Don't blame me, I voted for Pharoh:sunny:.
Skybird
12-26-13, 07:10 PM
We can argue that letting the democy run natural curse is a best way.
As long as I take that typo literally, I agree that democracy is a most natural curse. :D
But you meant that it is the best possible option to let things of governing done in a natural course. No surprise, I would argue it is not. It always necessarily leads to a socialist political regime of market prevention, centralised planned economy, mass poverty and destruction of freedom. It rewards the worts in political candidates, for those cheating, lying and propagating miracle stuff most unscrupulous have best chances to get elected. Those of competence and talking grim truths, have smallest chances to get elected. And bureaucracy and poltically correct lobbyism and propaganda is constantly growing, becasue all those self declared elites of the intelligenzia usually are unable to survive the competition of a free market, they know that, and so flee in huge masses into state services and politically supported institutions. There they sit and hate the free market and its liberalism and justice with all the will power they can bring up.
That also explains why the intellectuals by a very huge majority are so very left leaning, and are so hostile towards capitalism. They are a company of loosers that in a capitalist system could not hide. So they prefer socialist states and centralised planned economy where they nest, breed and multiply, parasitically sucking the wealth of those they try to rip off as best as they can. This injustice is their only concept of how to run an econonmy.
A slightly different view on Charles Dickens' figure of Ebenezer Scrooge, unfortunately only in German.
http://boess.welt.de/2013/12/25/auch-dieses-jahr-wieder-gerechtigkeit-fuer-ebenezer-scrooge/
Die Welt ist eine Irrenanstalt.
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