Is that a Pocket Shotgun in your Pants or are you just happy to see me?

[Feuer Frei!]

True enough, these little 'toys' have been around for a while now...

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/heizer-defense-ps1.jpg


Heizer Defense, inventor of the “Pocket Shotgun” .410/.45 Colt single-shot derringer. It is an extremely thin and light pistol for deep concealment and back-up use

SOURCE (http://www.guns.com/2013/12/10/heizer-defense-gets-new-website-pocket-shotgun-shipping-month/)



What a joke this thing is, .410 rounds, penetration and energy transfer would be, bad.
That's an understatement.

[Sailor Steve]

True enough, these little 'toys' have been around for a while now...What a joke this thing is, .410 rounds, penetration and energy transfer would be, bad.
That's an understatement.
During one of the eternal arguments between fans of 9mm and .45 ACP, Gunsight Academy founder Colonel Jeff Cooper, himself a .45 fan, quipped "In a street confrontation a .22 in your pocket is far more effective than a .45 in your bedroom drawer."

I think given the purpose for this gun it could be a good thing to have when the need arose.

[Jimbuna]

During one of the eternal arguments between fans of 9mm and .45 ACP, Gunsight Academy founder Colonel Jeff Cooper, himself a .45 fan, quipped "In a street confrontation a .22 in your pocket is far more effective than a .45 in your bedroom drawer."

I think given the purpose for this gun it could be a good thing to have when the need arose.

Most definitely...would hate to be on the receiving end.

[Ducimus]

What a joke this thing is, .410 rounds, penetration and energy transfer would be, bad.
That's an understatement.

It's a belly gun, up close and personal defense weapon. Say, a couple feet away maybe, or worse yet, pressed right up to your attackers gut. You definitely wouldn't want to get hit by it. Maybe a bit too close for taste, but it is better then nothing.

[Feuer Frei!]

A .410 wouldn't be the first choice for self-defense.

This thing is more a novelty weapon than anything else.

Sure, it's better than nothing, 410 ammo was designed for hunting, not self-defense.

Ammo designed for long barrels but used in short barrels doesn't really gel.

I hazard a guess but this particular model has shallow rifling? If so, they are not true smoothbores, ie the shots spread out too much. Not really what you want in greater ranges.

Gimmick gun, good for a novice.

Total energy of a loadout is important, as you gun nuts know of course.

The only advantage of this thing would be the low recoil.

Edit: As Ducimus points out at close range it may be ok, ie 3 yards or nearer, which is the key number for self-defense, in relation to this model.
Anything outside of that, and a guy wearing a leather jacket coming at you from a range greater than 3 yards, (keeping in mind the scattered shot pattern) getting hit by 6 pellets, rather than 9 (from a 12-gauge) may still keep on coming. May is the word i stress, that's the issue, not a certainty.
Which then defeats the purpose o self-defense. You don't want the doubt of something that MAY stop an attacker.
A 12 or 20-gauge on the other hand? Well....

[Ducimus]

Well its not my first choice either, but as any firearms enthusiast will tell you, some guns work well for some people for varying reasons, and some don't.

[Feuer Frei!]

Haha yea, maybe if you have squirrels or rabbits invading your appartment.
Fair point.

[Ducimus]

Well, let me ask you this, what would you give someone to defend themselves with who was elderly, had frail limbs, poor eye sight, wears simple clothing, extremely recoil sensitive, and didn't have access to a shooting range to become proficient with the manual of arms for a standard semiauto handgun?

See what I mean? We are all different, with different considerations.

[Sailor Steve]

They call it a derringer, and that's what it is. Ever since Henry Deringer created the first muzzle-loading pocket pistol the misspelled "derringer" has been a generic name for a single-or-two-shot personal weapon, small enough to be carried in a jacket or pants pocket and only for last-ditch use. They have always been popular and likely always will be.

Dismiss it all you like. If you need one it's better to have it than not.

[Platapus]

I would not call a .410 a "shotgun".

I can buy multi-projectile rounds for my 9mm, but that does not make it a shotgun either.

[Aktungbby]

I would not call a .410 a "shotgun".

In California you'd be wrong; my Derringer is illegal now (as are my .30 cal 30 round M1 carbine mags) as it is a shotgun under 18 " length. There is a solution: the replica Lemat with a center spindle shotgun is considered a blackpowder replica and is exempt under the law which with 9 .44 rounds makes it a suitably nasty solution to the niceties of our over-regulated police-state violations of our right to arm bears...!?

[Wolferz]

No, this is not a shotgun in my pocket and yes, I am very happy to see you.:03:
This thing won't take a life, though wife 1.0 might have a differing opinion.
:haha:

[Aktungbby]

No, this is not a shotgun in my pocket and yes, I am very happy to see you.:03:
This thing won't take a life, though wife 1.0 might have a differing opinion.
:haha: let's give Mae West a little credit for the thread title here!

[August]

410 ammo was designed for hunting, not self-defense.

These 410's are indeed designed for self-defense.

Delivering effective shot patterns that place all projectiles on a man-sized target at seven yards, the Critical Defense® 410 features a unique Triple Defense™ projectile stack consisting of two 35 caliber round balls topped with one non-jacketed FTX® slug. Unique to the Critical Defense 410, the 41 caliber FTX® slug actually engages the gun's rifling, and contacts the target nose-on, enabling the patented Hornady Flex Tip® technology to assist in expansion for greatly enhanced terminal performance. Each 35 caliber round ball is made of high antimony, cold swaged lead to resist deformation and provide excellent penetration. The 410 Critical Defense is loaded to 750 fps at the muzzle with 294 ft lbs of energy.

http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/products/ammo/cutouts/86238-Critical-Defense-410-section-above-lg.jpg

http://www.hornady.com/store/410-Critical-Defense-Ammo/

[Aktungbby]

:yeah:^

[Jimbuna]

Translation required :doh:

[gi_dan2987]

Some guns are meant to kill animals, other guns are meant to kill people. But some guns are just meant to kill your wallet and serve no other purpose. Source: An avid sportsman, gun owner, and military veteran.

[August]

Translation required :doh:

With the right ammo it's not as harmless as some are making it out to be.

[Aktungbby]

:k_confused: Well jes' don't confuse yer white-tail deer rifle with yer .375 H&H Browning A-bolt moose gun

[Stealhead]

To me the thing about the entire caliber argument is simply put any round can kill you or very seriously injure you.Granted there is no "magic bullet" that kills no matter where it hits (that is reasonably man portable).

People say 9mm para this and .45 that 5.56mm this and .308 that. I say I'll pass on getting hit by any of them because they all very much have the potential to put me six feet under at worst and damaged for life at best if they happen to hit you in the right spot and any of the above mentioned can achieve that with a solid torso hit.


It all depends on the person anyone who has fought another man to the death hand to hand can tell you just how much damage the human body can take.I could tell you a story from Vietnam my father vs. a very hardy NVA solider but it might be a bit much for this forum.Suffice it to say that the Vietnamese took an entire magazine of M1911A1 rounds at very close range and still kept coming and it ended hand to hand.It is all relative and how strong ones adrenaline is has a factor as well some will go on from a fatal hit that would put others down in seconds just like deer some can have the heart and lungs gone and keep going for a surprising distance not mention hogs.

[gi_dan2987]

You're absolutely correct. You only die when your mind believes its dead. It's all in your head.

[August]

You're absolutely correct. You only die when your mind believes its dead. It's all in your head.

If it were only that simple.

[Ducimus]

Location, location, location. :O:

[gi_dan2987]

If it were only that simple.

Oh but it is that simple. I know, I've seen it happen on the battlefield. I've seen people blown in half that keep firing and crawl around. Not one of my fondest memories I must say...

[Stealhead]

Location, location, location. :O:

Depends unless you get a few spots instant death is not assured and those spots can be very hard to hit in a combat shooting situation.One victim of Richard Ramirez got shot in the base of the brain while he was asleep no less.Yet he still managed to jump and chase Ramirez out of his house which saved his wife's life.Of curse he died but he still managed to be a threat for 20 or 30 seconds long enough to scare Ramirez away.

Accuracy is important this is true because hitting is better than missing but to expect x amount of rounds to do the trick is a bad idea.Of course your :O: makes me think that you do not have complete faith relying in the single perfect shot.

[Stealhead]

Oh but it is that simple. I know, I've seen it happen on the battlefield. I've seen people blown in half that keep firing and crawl around. Not one of my fondest memories I must say...

If the medulla oblongata where to be severed the primitive brain would instantly shut down and the subconscious mind would also be shut down before any signal could be received.Therefore the mind would have no way to "know" that it's body was dead yet it still instantly stops.

What you saw was a combination of adrenaline and shock.

[d@rk51d3]

With the right ammo it's not as harmless as some are making it out to be.

Alot of people trash talk the 410............ maybe those lacking the skill to use one properly. :up:

[Feuer Frei!]

Alot of people trash talk the 410............ maybe those lacking the skill to use one properly. :up:

You're not referring to this model posted in the thread are you? :haha:

[Jimbuna]

With the right ammo it's not as harmless as some are making it out to be.

Cheers matey.

[gi_dan2987]

I once sold a Bauer .25 Auto to a friend of mine. In case nobody is familiar, a Bauer 25 is a pocket gun similar in design to a baby Browning belly gun. He laughed when I showed him this thing (after all, it fit in the palm of my hand). He asked what he was going to do with that thing, and if it would even work. I asked him if he would like to be shot in the eye with it to see if it worked. He just said "Uh no" and with that answered his own question. He bought the gun to say the least :har:

It's not about caliber or stopping power necessarily. It's about shot placement for the caliber you're using. Know that you've got a light caliber, and use it accordingly. Know that you won't be able to do with it what you could do with say a .45, but don't ever underestimate its capabilities. That Bauer 25 sent a lot of mobsters to early graves back in the day. It was the hitman's weapon of choice.

It's the man that makes the weapon, not the other way around

[Ducimus]

Depends unless you get a few spots instant death is not assured and those spots can be very hard to hit in a combat shooting situation.One victim of Richard Ramirez got shot in the base of the brain while he was asleep no less.Yet he still managed to jump and chase Ramirez out of his house which saved his wife's life.Of curse he died but he still managed to be a threat for 20 or 30 seconds long enough to scare Ramirez away.

Accuracy is important this is true because hitting is better than missing but to expect x amount of rounds to do the trick is a bad idea.Of course your :O: makes me think that you do not have complete faith relying in the single perfect shot.

I was implying shot placement, which relies on accuracy and training, however where accuracy is concerned there are two types. Range accuracy, and combat accuracy. A major component of combat accuracy, is "speed vs accuracy". You can't really have both unless your a robot, or some high speed low drag super charged go to war machine with thousand and thousands of rounds invested in realistic training scenarios not found at your standard gun range.

Range to target will have an effect on speed vs accuracy. At 25 yards you can sacrifice some speed for accuracy. However, at 15, 10, 7, or 5 yards, your going to have to strive for more speed, but be less accurate. The overall goal isn't tight groupings, but simply hitting the target "in the black" in a stress situation, or as some professionals will call it, a "dynamic situation".

It's funny, only as a civilian did i really start looking into more training options. In the AF, all they taught us was shoot center of mass at the target closest to you because that is the more immediate threat. (Or at least that's all i remember, aside from field stripping an M16, and I barely remembered that.) I'm finding there's alot they didn't teach us. But that's the AF for you.

EDIT:
For what it's worth, since I made the decision to carry a concealed firearm, I've been trying to educate myself as much as I can. I posted this before, but it might be worth reposting:
Dr Andreas Grabinsky on Gunshot Wounds (http://youtu.be/wXwPtP-KDNk) (Some images are graphic )

[gi_dan2987]

Also Ducimus, the AF isn't teaching you how to be a combat ground soldier either.

I agree with that "speed v. accuracy" thing, but what I agree with more is "slow is smooth, smooth is fast." One of the best weapons instructors I've ever had taught me to be accurate first, and fast later. He said with time, my speed would come, but for right now, focus on hitting the target the first time, every time.

Once you have the concept, it's like riding a bike. Perfect sight picture, apply gradual and deliberately controlled back pressure on the trigger (he didn't like using the term "pull"), when the weapon discharges, track the rise and fall of the front sight post, and as soon as your sights are perfectly aligned again on target, apply your second round on target. This is known as the controlled pair or "double tap" as we all have come to know. Many people try to do this fast and end up missing every time. Make sure to time your breathing with your shots. Breathe, hold, fire, exhale, repeat. Always remember to follow through. I would shoot expert every time. From that point, it's all about proficiency practice and honing your skills. Do not just go to the range to hear gun go bang. Bring 10-15 rounds, and make them all perfect shots.

[Ducimus]

Also Ducimus, the AF isn't teaching you how to be a combat ground soldier either.


I was an Engineer in a self contained rapid mobile construction unit that operated independently. I received more training then your average chairforce personnel. Most of that involved building bases, runways, establishing main line of defence, tertiary lines of defense, fighting positions, hardening positions, establishing interlocking fields of fire and all that jazz. Where they skimped on was individual marksmanship.

[gi_dan2987]

Yeah and from the sounds of your specialty, they probably would have skimped on marksmanship in the light of other, more practical training for your line of work. Army engineers only do their 40 round qual a year and that's about it. Really unless you're in an infantry or spec forces unit, you're going to be cleaning it more than you shoot it more often than not.

[Ducimus]

Yeah and from the sounds of your specialty, they probably would have skimped on marksmanship in the light of other, more practical training for your line of work. Army engineers only do their 40 round qual a year and that's about it. Really unless you're in an infantry or spec forces unit, you're going to be cleaning it more than you shoot it more often than not.

Yup pretty much. We solved practical problems. I didn't know the Army engineers only had to do a 40 round annual qualification. Being Army, I always figured they got more then us. We are about the same in that regard really. Never did have good experiences with them. Had better experiences working with the Seabee's. Not sure why. I think the Army just hates Air Force a lot more then the Navy does.

Funny thing, I'm quick to defend my unit type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_Engineer_Deployable_Heavy_Operational_Repair _Squadron_Engineers), but not so much on the AF in general. I do happen to agree with most of the crap most other branch's say about the AF, though on the same note not all the sterotypes are correct regardless of branch. As an off the wall example, AF is supposed to have the best chow, yet I've actualy had better chow at an Army chow hall , then most of the "Aerospace dining facilities" (aka " the scarf and barf") ive ever ate at.

In any event, I have indeed learned more about marksmanship as a civy.

[gi_dan2987]

The military surprisingly does not have a large budget for weapons training and ammunition expenditure. Allocating funds to research the endangered Mexican singing frogs of southern Sri Lanka is more important. Of course, most of those funds go in the pockets of uncle sam's benefactors, and about .0000001% goes to the actual cause... But we won't talk about that... It's bad for PR you know.. :shifty:

[Aktungbby]

:agree:

[Stealhead]

It's funny, only as a civilian did i really start looking into more training options. In the AF, all they taught us was shoot center of mass at the target closest to you because that is the more immediate threat. (Or at least that's all i remember, aside from field stripping an M16, and I barely remembered that.) I'm finding there's alot they didn't teach us. But that's the AF for you.




Sounds abut like my USAF experience.I "volunteered" to be a back up Security Forces at Ramstein and they only bothered to train us in the combat aspects and none of the LE ones.Funny thign was that about half of the SPs where ex Army or Marine Infantry the better ones and they made a good impression on some of the others the rest where lazy.
So we received some more specific training on the M-16 and the other small arms and that was optional but I figured why not.What if I did have to use the M60 for real might as well at least know how to work it.

In my regular job the M16 just got in my way for 70% of the USAF it would serve as a paper weight.But hey those electric pencil sharpeners are dangerous.I used to love it when I over heard a pencil pusher talk about how nice of a winter day it was I used to think how nice it must be to have a warm desk to sit in and look at the weather.Anyway like they say a bad day in the field is much better than a good day in an office.I had an indoor job for about 6 months after I left the AF it just about killed me the boredom.

In basic training though it was the most basic I think they showed us how to strip the M-16 but did not make us do it if they did it was just that one day so not enough for someone who never handled and firearm before or even someone who had not handled an M16 or Ar15 before.I knew more about the M16/Ar from my father and learning from him LRRP style the only thign clean on an LRRP during a patrol was his weapon. From 2008 up they started a much more in depth M16 training course they actually get issued at the start of basic now.

[Madox58]

the super pros use the .22 magnum

.22, .25, and .32 are best for up close jobs as they rarely exit the skull with the proper ammo.
Instead the round takes several trips around the inside of the cranium doing more damage then a through and through might cause.

I have one friend that was shot in the face with a .25 from across a street.
He was lucky and walked away as the distance was to great for the small round.
It entered his left cheek, bounced off the base of his skull and exited out the back of his neck.

Another tried to end his life with a .357 to the head. He's messed up but lived to dial 911 as the round went through where a .22 or such would have done the roundy-round thing.

[gi_dan2987]

Yeah if you're gonna do yourself in, never use a gun, you'll flinch and blast your face off, only to live marred or die in agony. Nothing is worth taking yourself out over. Give it enough time and you'll die naturally anyways.

[Stealhead]

Yeah if you're gonna do yourself in, never use a gun, you'll flinch and blast your face off, only to live marred or die in agony. Nothing is worth taking yourself out over. Give it enough time and you'll die naturally anyways.


Good point. I always viewed killing ones self as letting what ever was getting you down win.Aside from some sort of altruistic circumstance it really isn't worth the trouble nor the pain it causes the people that are close to you.So what if you lost all your money or some woman ditched you or your job sucks.


Now lying on bed with terminal cancer and choosing to forgo further treatment that is different of course in that case you would be close to death anyway.

Some kid that went to the same school as me his dad offed himself with a .22 to the temple only he did not die right away his wife found him 6 or 7 hours later and he was still breathing he only died an entire day later so he must have suffered to some extent and had no way to communicate the amount of pain he might have been in.

[gi_dan2987]

Yeah, bad news, don't do it. Gun suicides almost always fail.

[Madox58]

I've had way to many friends off themselves over the years.
:nope:
Also to many that have attempted it.

I may be crazy and ride with no helmet or jump out of aircraft and such.
But I can't fathom doing myself in.