I would like some opinions on a matter....

[gi_dan2987]

Why is it the game determines my death? Why can't I be allowed to exit the game myself after I determine I'm done? If my crew is dead, all compartments flooded, and the sub is on her way to the eternal deep, there's obviously nothing else to do but quit. You could give orders all you want, but if everybody's dead and the boat is 100% flooded, nothing will happen anyways.

The reason I'm suggesting this is because there have been times where I was making headway on the flooding, most of my crew were still alive and working, the sub was still under control and actually beginning to reverse her sinking when Bam! I get the "Yer Ded" message. :/\\!!

Let me know what you think about this suggestion and why it would or would not work in the game.

[Sailor Steve]

How deep were you at the time? You can be in perfect health and lose the boat if you go too deep, so even if you think you're making progress you might have been dragged so far the boat is crushed anyway.

Of course it would be nice if the game told you this as it was happening. Instant death has long been a complaint. H.sie's fixes might address the issue, but I've never had a computer that would run that mod, so I don't know for sure.

[gi_dan2987]

Wasn't all that deep, probably still in the green, about 75-100 meters or so. Well within the subs operating range.

I took a lucky DC right next to the aft crew quarters (knocking off a couple crew right there, injuring others). She started to flood and before long the tail was slipping below the bow. At this point, I was still maintaining depth, I was just a bit stern heavy. I found that as long as I kept the engines running at 2/3rds I could maneuver and still maintain depth. Blam! Another DC, this time a bit forward where the other one hit, causing flooding in the adjacent compartment and destroying my aft flak gun.

By this time she was beginning to drop. not fast at first, but I was still keeping up with the flooding for the most part. I kept increasing forward power until my depth began to stabilize again. I had dropped about 25 meters, but I was still hanging in there. The cans were falling all around me and shaking me up, but not really causing anymore damage. I was zig zagging and doing everything in my power to keep her going.

The one compartment finished repairs, and as the excess water was being pumped out, I began to throttle back until I could maintain depth at 1/3, though I was still sagging a bit. Just as repairs were complete in the crew quarters, the game said I was sunk.

Being a former Navy man, I'm sure you'll agree that real naval vessels don't go off of a hull integrity percentage, it goes off flooding alone correct? Isn't it true that ships that have been blown in half still need to flood to sink, am I right?

I just get frustrated with it. It's a sim I know, but if it's gonna be a sim, then I would request this arcade feature be removed, and option to quit be left up to the player.

[Sailor Steve]

I took a lucky DC right next to the aft crew quarters (knocking off a couple crew right there, injuring others).
That right there might have weakened the hull, severely reducing the crush depth. The others didn't help.

Being a former Navy man, I'm sure you'll agree that real naval vessels don't go off of a hull integrity percentage, it goes off flooding alone correct? Isn't it true that ships that have been blown in half still need to flood to sink, am I right?
You're absolutely right. There are known cases of merchants breaking in half, with one end sinking and the other being towed to port for salvage. Unfortunately the game isn't designed to work that way. As I said before, an ending would be nice. If you've managed repairs but some part of the hull gave out it would feel better to have a cut scene, or at least be told that something somewhere gave out and there was no chance to stop it. Closure is everything.

I just get frustrated with it. It's a sim I know, but if it's gonna be a sim, then I would request this arcade feature be removed, and option to quit be left up to the player.
I agree to a point. Sometimes things just slip beyond your control, and there's nothing more to be done. What would be good would be some variety.

[gi_dan2987]

Closure is everything yes. You would think Ubi would've added a cutscene or option-to-quit feature, but then again they have to appeal to a mass market to satisfy all palates I suppose.

I still really enjoy SH3, even with all the issues. It's a love/hate relationship.

So in theory, with a cracked pressure hull and sinking sub, there's no telling what the crush depth would be until it happens?

I suppose the death screen is hard-coded, so there would be no way to mod that.

In GWX3, the hull integrity indicator is removed, but does it still have effect on the sub? If your crush depth is 250, and you have 50% hull remaining, then your new crush depth is 125? I never understood what the percentage indicator was all about.

Also, when I dive to the point where glass is busting and I'm getting yelled at by my chief, I also notice this starts to tax the hull integrity in stock SH3. Does this mean you're below crush depth, or nearing crush depth? Please explain, I'm kind of confused about the numbers and what they mean.

[Sailor Steve]

So in theory, with a cracked pressure hull and sinking sub, there's no telling what the crush depth would be until it happens?
Not just in theory, but in reality. Any given boat might have its own quirks, and actual crush depths varied. People tell stories of going far below crush depth and surviving, but of the ones that didn't return we can only guess. Was the boat killed by a depth charge going off very close? Was it dragged down by flooding? Did they think they had it licked and then something they missed gave out? We just have no way of knowing.

In GWX3, the hull integrity indicator is removed, but does it still have effect on the sub? If your crush depth is 250, and you have 50% hull remaining, then your new crush depth is 125? I never understood what the percentage indicator was all about.
I'm not sure exactly how it works either, but one of the wonderful functions of SH3 Commander is the ability to turn it back on at your discretion. I also use h.sie's Colored Hull Integrity Indicator, which replaces the numbers with a color-code: Green for good, Yellow for "who knows?" and Red for "Oh god we're all gonna die!"

Also, when I dive to the point where glass is busting and I'm getting yelled at by my chief, I also notice this starts to tax the hull integrity in stock SH3. Does this mean you're below crush depth, or nearing crush depth? Please explain, I'm kind of confused about the numbers and what they mean.
I do know that if you're below crush depth things will start to fall apart, and quickly. Another function of SH3 Commander is to vary the crush depth so you're never quite sure.

[gi_dan2987]

Well I guess when I die next time I'll just chalk it up as a lesson learned and try again.

I've also read stories of guys being far below crush depth and living to tell the tale. From what I've read, those guys did not have a good time down there. I've read some chilling personal accounts, and usually the survivors come back screwed up in the head to say the least. Sitting in the pitch black, sunk totally to the bottom, far below crush depth. Some guys were praying, others were crying, some saying they just wanted to go home and hug their moms. Oh man, that's one thing a simulator will never ever simulate. All to get the boat fixed and pop back to the surface. I can't even imagine the mental torture.

I've only known one bubble-head in my time, and that boy was not right. He said they spent up to 6 months without surfacing at times, sometimes more. He was a technician on one of the weapons systems of a Los Angeles class, but I can't remember the name.

So what job aboard a surface vessel would be an exciting experience?

[BigWalleye]

Once upon a time, I had the great fun of riding in the Shuttle Simulator at Johnson. The cab rocked back into launch attitude, the rumblers kicked on, and we watched the “Earth view” recede through the windows, while flipping switches in response to prompts from Mission Control. Then, as we passed through 100,000 feet, alarms went off and red lights started flashing, as the Voice informed us that we had lost Number 3 Main. For seconds which seemed like hours, we punched switches, desperately trying to remember from our briefing what we were supposed to do. Suddenly, the alarms stopped, the MPDs froze, the lights stopped flashing, and the Voice said: “Sorry, guys, but you’re dead.” If we had been astronauts in training, we would have been debriefed about what we had and had not done right, but we were just guests along for the ride on an MCR crew training sim. Game over.

R/L, when the fertilizer hits the ventilation system, there is seldom feedback about how you are doing. SH3, while not a perfect sim, is like that when things go bad. Hull at 25%? Does that mean that you can take 25% more damage before your hull collapses, or that you have only a 25% chance of not collapsing every time the program checks? Got her headed back up? Well, sorry, but you are already way below the safe depth for your damaged hull and you may not make it to a safe depth. Either you make it or you don’t, and it’s up to you to figure out why. There’s not a lot of heuristic feedback. In the situation the OP described, it is possible to be "doomed" for a while before you are "dead". You just don't know and you have to keep trying. (Or hit ESC and load your last save. It IS a game, thank Heaven!:))

[gi_dan2987]

Yes if you play it like a game. I prefer to play it like a sim, as it was designed to be. I have games, but when I want a taste of something a little more challenging for my brain, I go for sims. To me, a sim is something that should be continuously improved upon to get as close to virtual reality as possible.

But yes you're correct, and I sometimes reload my last save and try again, especially in cases where I feel I've been killed off unrealistically. However, I am a hardcore player, 100% realism, the works. When I die in what I feel was a legitimate circumstance, I restart my career. Perhaps you and I just have a different intensity of play.

[Marcello]

This (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a232543.pdf) paper can give an idea of the difficulty in predicting when a submarine pressure hull will give up.

[CTU_Clay]

Did you ever use your emergency surface key ("E" on the keyboard) to get you back above a serious crush depth? I have used it in many occassions where my repair crew could not get flooding under control in a timely manner. But you need to monitor your rise. You do not want to pop up on the surface at the enemy feeding table. I watch my rise and stop the rise my selecting a new depth during the blow. This maneuver has saved my butt several times.

[gi_dan2987]

All emergency procedures were underway, all crew was at action stations, damage control team was making headway. I blew ballast and gunned the engines, and she began to reverse sinking and began to rise, then shortly after passing about 75m I got the "Crew Quarters repaired sir!" message, then the black screen of death.

[BigWalleye]

Perhaps you and I just have a different intensity of play.

No. I don't think so. I use NYGM at 100%, with Hitman's optics, and do approach calculations and TVR inputs on a couple of DIY hand-held circular calculators. I usually go DID, unless I do something so stoopid (sic) I can't stand it.

But that's my point: Accurate simulation of a mission-critical situation demands that you not know for sure how you are doing, what you did wrong, and what you did right (assuming you "survive"). As it is, we ALWAYS survive, including when we "die", and therefore can learn from mistakes in a wholly inappropriate fashion. ("Next time, I'll do X first, and maybe we'll survive.") A death screen with no explanation was, I suspect, what a lot of R/L submariners got.

BTW, since you like a realistic sim, I strongly recommend NYGM (and Hitman's optics, too). As Ligne Maginot wrote: "NYGM doesn't have the best graphics, but it gives you a really accurate death." Also, I use voice command (Eric Knepfler's sh3Speech) exclusively. It provides a sense of actually directing a crew instead of a single-seat underwater fighter plane. You TELL the crew what to do, you don't push buttons. If you are looking for a more authentic feel, IMO voice command improves any subsim.

[Sailor Steve]

This (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a232543.pdf) paper can give an idea of the difficulty in predicting when a submarine pressure hull will give up.
That paper is brilliant! Thanks for the link. :rock:

[gi_dan2987]

I've never heard of voice command. I do have headphones with a mic for my flight sims, but I don't know how to even set that up for SH3. Would you be able to assist me?

The immersion factor in flight sims with my headphones is amazing, especially with TrackIR. If I could simply tell my sub crew what to do instead of hurrying to find the right button, my odds might improve a little, just like with flight sim.

I run GWX3 and of all the mods and ala carte items, I've found this to be the most well-rounded in terms of immersion, realism, and eye candy.

I heard NYGM is partly influenced by GWX3 or is it the other way around? Are they even similar?

[VONHARRIS]

This (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a232543.pdf) paper can give an idea of the difficulty in predicting when a submarine pressure hull will give up.

Exellent!
Thank you.
Lots of brainfood here.

[BigWalleye]

I've never heard of voice command. I do have headphones with a mic for my flight sims, but I don't know how to even set that up for SH3. Would you be able to assist me?

Happy to help. Might have to wait until after Christmas Day, 'cuz I'm busy preparing. Meanwhile, if you're interested, try googling "shspeech". There is a certain amount of hand tailoring that has to be done, but it's not bad and I can walk you through it. (If you use GWX with OLC GUI, maybe none needed.)

The immersion factor in flight sims with my headphones is amazing, especially with TrackIR. If I could simply tell my sub crew what to do instead of hurrying to find the right button, my odds might improve a little, just like with flight sim. Absolutely! 'Course, the response is a little slower, about what you would expect from a crewman reacting to your spoken order. And if you get tongue-tied or stutter under pressure....

I run GWX3 and of all the mods and ala carte items, I've found this to be the most well-rounded in terms of immersion, realism, and eye candy. GWX is the best balanced, without question. The balance is what the modders were aiming for, and they nailed it.

I heard NYGM is partly influenced by GWX3 or is it the other way around? Are they even similar? I'm sure NYGM and GWX incorporate the work of some of the same modders. But I don't think either was a precursor of the other. NYGM by intent strives for realism first. Some of the eye candy of GWX isn't there. But IMO it's visually accurate where that accuracy is needed for sim fidelity. And a lot of visual mods can be added to NYGM to improve the look.

Here's my mod list:

NYGM Tonnage War V2.5 – Stand Alone Version
NYGM3_New
NYGM3_6C
NYGM Tonnage War Minefield Mod
NYGM HiRes Submarines
IABLShipsforNYGM_New
Single Merchant Contact Mod
TMT mod(NYGM version)
Harbor Traffic Add-In
1500 meter bearing overlay
Alternate Dial Faces
AllAirTorpedoes
Scirè-Tikigod- repeated order
SHIII Internal Life Mod v1.2
BritishAsdicMkIFinal
EAX_Sound_Sim_SH3
FM_NewInterior v2.1D
Carotio_SH3_ClothesHatsFacesSkilledCrew
NeuUZO&PeriV.2
Capt. Teach's SH3 Color Icons for GWX 3.0 (Standard)
TorpedoTubesFfireFinal vStock
SH-5 Water for SH-3 20 Km V84
Spirit of machines
Supplement to V16B1 - NYGM
Stiebler4B_Addon_for_V16B1 - NYGM
O2-Gauges v2
Hitman Optics NYGM 3.6 (Fixed)
BW On-Top Mod NYGM-Hitman's Optics v1.0

That last one is a home-brew clean-up that merges any files that were over-written by h.sie, Stiebler, and Hitman optics. All others as-downloaded. BTW, if you like sim fidelity, you should check out h.sie's and stiebler's patchers. Significantly improve fidelity no matter which megamod you use.

[gi_dan2987]

I really haven't been playing much recently, mostly just researching mods and helping out on the forums. A little office duty I suppose :D

I decided that I've had enough of GWX and want to stick my feelers out there again for another mod.

I'm thinking about LSH3 V5.1? I like your home brew list. Give me something that will blow my mind realistically, but also be accurate visually, with the eye candy where it matters. You know what I'm looking for I'm sure. I'm doing a clean install of SH3 from Steam as we speak. That should give you enough time to cook something up :yeah: