"Affluenza" as a DUI defense...

[vienna]

They should have charged him with murder and dealt with him "Texas Style" :nope: :


http://www.ajc.com/news/news/national/outrage-over-rich-teens-affluenza-defense-4-deaths/ncJXL/


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/12/affluenza-dwi-dui-texas/3999487/


http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/12/the-affluenza-defense-judge-rules-rich-kids-rich-kid-ness-makes-him-not-liable-for-deadly-drunk-driving-accident/



<O>

[Buddahaid]

I smell a payoff. This is disgusting to say the least.

[Jimbuna]

Sadly, money still speaks louder than everything else in some instances.

[GoldenRivet]

shameful.

[eddie]

Sadly, money still speaks louder than everything else in some instances.

Especially in court!

[Bubblehead1980]

Terrible incident but a creative defense and it worked.Also, what good would have been accomplished by sending a teenager to prison? This guy had no intent to kill, he made a mistake and will pay for it, but sending him to prison will do nothing but satisfy the natural urge for revenge, which is one reason the recidivism rate is so high in this country, we focus too much on punishment and revenge, instead of rehabilitation .Sure, it sounds bleeding heart but it makes sense because what are doing and have been, revenge/punishment, has not worked.

Bravo to the attorney for doing his job well:rock:

[August]

I guess if money caused this problem maybe taking all of it away from him and his parents via civil suit is the best thing to do.

[Buddahaid]

Terrible incident but a creative defense and it worked.Also, what good would have been accomplished by sending a teenager to prison? This guy had no intent to kill, he made a mistake and will pay for it, but sending him to prison will do nothing but satisfy the natural urge for revenge, which is one reason the recidivism rate is so high in this country, we focus too much on punishment and revenge, instead of rehabilitation .Sure, it sounds bleeding heart but it makes sense because what are doing and have been, revenge/punishment, has not worked.

Bravo to the attorney for doing his job well:rock:

Four dead and a slap on the wrist. Just what is being paid for?

[Tchocky]

Bravo

:roll:

[Bubblehead1980]

Four dead and a slap on the wrist. Just what is being paid for?


Ten years of probation is no slap on the wrist and I am sure if he screws up, he will be violated pretty fast.Living under the thumb of a probation officer for a decade, can not imagine that.I am sure no alcohol is part his probation.I am sure he will, especially once off in college and will likely get caught. I have not lived under probation but heard stories and seen it, I shadowed a probation officer for a week in college, she was tough, esp when ti came to those on felony probation.Not the joke everyone thinks it is.

[CaptainHaplo]

4 people are dead because of his idiocy.

If it was a kid that age whose parents were making 50k between them and living paycheck to paycheck - do you think that he would have gotten the same outcome?

You can't say he would. Thus - blind lady justice wasn't so blind - therefore the system didn't work.

Equal punishment for equal crime. While the defense may have been "creative" - the outcome is a travesty of justice.

[Bubblehead1980]

4 people are dead because of his idiocy.

If it was a kid that age whose parents were making 50k between them and living paycheck to paycheck - do you think that he would have gotten the same outcome?

You can't say he would. Thus - blind lady justice wasn't so blind - therefore the system didn't work.

Equal punishment for equal crime. While the defense may have been "creative" - the outcome is a travesty of justice.


Depends on his lawyer, if they managed to get him a good one and not a public pretender etc, possible. No evidence to suggest Judge was paid off and went easy because kid comes from a well off family. Not a travesty of justice, kid made a stupid, costly mistake and will pay for it with a decade of his life under the thumb of a PO.

[Buddahaid]

At least he has a life still. I feel so sorry for him.

[Tribesman]

Drunk drivers:nope:

[TarJak]

I hope that the deaths he caused haunt him for the rest of his life.

The damage he has caused cannot be repaired but the sentence seems to have been very lenient no matter how tough his probation officers are.

[Aktungbby]

Right up there with my favorite: the Harvey Milk/Dan White 'twinkie' defense in San Francisco!:down:

[Stealhead]

My defense will be that it was Wilson's fault which in turn was Harding's fault which in turn was Coolidge's fault which in turn was Hoover's fault which in turn was Roosevelt's fault which in turn was Truman's fault which in turn was Eisenhower's fault which in turn was Kennedy's fault which in turn was Nixon's fault which in turn was Ford's fault(only partly because he never got elected to office) which in turn was Carter's fault which in turn was Regan's fault which in turn was Bush's fault which in turn was Clinton's fault which in turn was Bush's fault(son not the father) which in turn it is Obama's fault that I ate too any Twinkies and beat the crap out of the kid that got off for having Affluenza.

[Father Goose]

Terrible incident but a creative defense and it worked.Also, what good would have been accomplished by sending a teenager to prison? This guy had no intent to kill, he made a mistake and will pay for it, but sending him to prison will do nothing but satisfy the natural urge for revenge, which is one reason the recidivism rate is so high in this country, we focus too much on punishment and revenge, instead of rehabilitation .Sure, it sounds bleeding heart but it makes sense because what are doing and have been, revenge/punishment, has not worked.

Bravo to the attorney for doing his job well:rock:

:har:
Who are you? And what did you do with Bubblehead?!!!

This can't be the same person that wanted to hang the illegal Honduran by his thumbs! :D

[Bubblehead1980]

:har:
Who are you? And what did you do with Bubblehead?!!!

This can't be the same person that wanted to hang the illegal Honduran by his thumbs! :D


Completely different case, the Honduran who crashed into us is an illegal immigrant, with no right to even be present in the united states nor was he a 16 year old kid. Sure, not happy he had been drinking and I never said hang him by his thumbs or any crazy punishment.I want him punished according to the law for his crimes, which means needs to be punished for the DUI crash, then deported after serving sentence.

[TorpX]

Terrible incident but a creative defense and it worked.Also, what good would have been accomplished by sending a teenager to prison? This guy had no intent to kill, he made a mistake and will pay for it, but sending him to prison will do nothing but satisfy the natural urge for revenge, which is one reason the recidivism rate is so high in this country, we focus too much on punishment and revenge, instead of rehabilitation .Sure, it sounds bleeding heart but it makes sense because what are doing and have been, revenge/punishment, has not worked.

Bravo to the attorney for doing his job well:rock:

Gawd!

Drunk drivers never intend to hurt anyone, so should we not punish any of them?

If "revenge" or "punishment" is such a failure, do you think we should close the prisons and let the inmates go?

I think there should be consequences for crimes, and it this case some prison time is called for.

I'm not surprised that some defense attorneys would try to peddle that nonsense, but I find it truly alarming that a judge would fall for such garbage. :nope:

[Armistead]

His rehab is like a 5 star hotel on the beach. Just a case if you have money, you can get rehab while others go to prison. If he got rehab, it should've been working a soup kitchen and sleeping on a cot. Sure he'll leave rehab feeling more entitled and will kill someone else down the road...

The only message this sends, the more spoiled you are, the more entitled you become and can get away with murder.

[Father Goose]

Completely different case...

I don't know...I think Tribesman will be here shortly to exploit this gaffe.

Your poor illegal Honduran is sitting in jail. How old is he?
This rich kid killed four people! That's four lives terminated, gone forever. He's free.
All the Honduran did differently was enter the country illegally and NOT kill four people.

Are you therefore saying that entering the country illegally is worse than killing four people?

[TarJak]

I don't know...I think Tribesman will be here shortly to exploit this gaffe.

Your poor illegal Honduran is sitting in jail. How old is he?
This rich kid killed four people! That's four lives terminated, gone forever. He's free.
All the Honduran did differently was enter the country illegally and NOT kill four people.

Are you therefore saying that entering the country illegally is worse than killing four people?

You've forgotten that the rich kid is rich and the Honduran is most likely not. But don't more importantly the key issue is that it was bubbles girlfriend's car that got slightly damaged so that demands punishment. /sarcasm /parody

[Tribesman]

I don't know...I think Tribesman will be here shortly to exploit this gaffe.

No, I think you and Tarjak have it thoroughly nailed down already:up:

[TarJak]

More seriously, what happens in Texas with victims compensation? Do the families of the dead have to run a civil claim or does the State look after that? I'm interested in the jurisdictional differences. Id assume that would have a civil suit given there was an offence recorded.

[Jimbuna]

I'm getting a strong sense of double standards and a fair amount of hypocrisy here.

[Tribesman]

I'm getting a strong sense of double standards and a fair amount of hypocrisy here.

no hypocrisy, drink driving laws are unfair, unjust and are only a money racket:woot:

[Oberon]

See, what we need is a President that will turn all these FEMA death camps into illegal immigrant death camps, and then repeal all the Obamacare laws so that only the rich can live. Then things will be better. :yep:

[swamprat69er]

At least he has a life still. I feel so sorry for him.
He will remember what he did for the rest of his life. I hope he has a long one.

[AVGWarhawk]

See, what we need is a President that will turn all these FEMA death camps into illegal immigrant death camps, and then repeal all the Obamacare laws so that only the rich can live. Then things will be better. :yep:

Finally, someone who sees the light. :yep:
:O:

But seriously, I do not understand some judges decisions. This judgement is horrible.

[August]

He will remember what he did for the rest of his life. I hope he has a long one.

Unfortunately that only works if he has a conscience. Maybe he'll grow one someday. Maybe.

[swamprat69er]

Unfortunately that only works if he has a conscience. Maybe he'll grow one someday. Maybe.
Maybe he wil screw up again while under probation and he might get lucky and get a judge that will actually punish him for all of his crimes.
We can only hope.

[Tribesman]

Unfortunately that only works if he has a conscience. Maybe he'll grow one someday. Maybe.

Yep, it would look like his sense of entitlement has eroded anything resembling a conscience.

[Bubblehead1980]

I'm getting a strong sense of double standards and a fair amount of hypocrisy here.


Well, your senses are off then.There is a huge difference between a US citizen, a teenager at that, making a stupid decision vast majority of us have made at one point or another, to drive after consuming alcohol.Unfortunately, his stupid decision resulted in the tragedy of four people losing their lives.Now, the kid was 16 at time of incident and this specific case leads into the big picture issue of our flawed and failed justice/corrections(prison) system.Our system is focused on punishment and satisfying the human need for revenge in lieu of punishment and rehabilitation.Sure, some violent offenders are beyond help but the US has 2 million plus people in prison and an extremely high recidivism rate.People usually learn how to be "better" criminals in prison and once out, due to the stigma, are excluded from society in many ways and end up right back in prison.I am certainly no bleeding heart but I am for what works here, and how things are now, do not work.I believe that was part of the judge's thinking, prison is no place for a 16 year old kid who simply made an idiotic mistake that lead to tragedy.Dislike him all you want because is wealthy(seems a lot of hate, kid can't help if he is wealthy anymore than a kid who is poor can) but he is still a kid who made a stupid mistake, he deserves punishment sure but being removed from society and put in prison for many years? Ten years of felony probation is not a slap on the wrist, eps if he ends up with a hard nosed Probation Officer.Imagine trying to finish high school with all these special restrictions? Imagine trying to go to college? Imagine having to ask permission to leave the county, the state, the country? This kid is under the thumb of the government for ten years and I find it highly likely if he does not obey the terms, he will end up in prison.

The illegal immigrant who hit me is a different situation.First, he had no right whatsoever to be in the country.Second, he is not a 16 year old who made a stupid mistake but a criminal already illegally in the country who made matters worse with his dangerous behavior.Since an illegal, would not deserve the same consideration in my opinion, even if legally entitled.I seek no revenge, simply for him to be punished and deported, all within the law.The 16 year old in Texas was punished and sentenced within the law. I tried to put myself in the families of the victim's shoes, I would be angry as well and want revenge but once the initial anger and emotion calm down, 90 percent sure I would still not want him in prison. I think of a DUI manslaughter incident that occurred in my hometown a few years ago.17 year old kid was drinking and driving, hit a car and it killed a 16 year old girl.The victim's parents urged the judge NOT to sentence the boy to prison but to give probation, I believe he got a heft probation sentence along with other things.That is the definition of having evolved beyond the natural, gut reaction instinct of revenge and letting sense prevail. I like to think if it were me, I could do the same, 90% sure I could eventually but yet, just a a big thing to do.

[Bubblehead1980]

I don't know...I think Tribesman will be here shortly to exploit this gaffe.

Your poor illegal Honduran is sitting in jail. How old is he?
This rich kid killed four people! That's four lives terminated, gone forever. He's free.
All the Honduran did differently was enter the country illegally and NOT kill four people.

Are you therefore saying that entering the country illegally is worse than killing four people?

I believe is in his early 30's, old enough to know better.Yes, he is sitting in jail where he belongs, because would likely flee and never be held accountable for what he did or would be roaming around as an illegal elsewhere.

The Honduran being illegal makes a big difference.The kid in texas had a right to be here, he screwed up, it happens but it's much more tragic if become the victim of someone who is in no way entitled to be even standing on the same land you are. The guy is a criminal anyways, multiple arrests, deported before etc and old enough to know better.

Worse than driving drunk and killing four people? No, but again it's apples and oranges, different situations.

[Father Goose]

I believe is in his early 30's, old enough to know better.Yes, he is sitting in jail where he belongs, because would likely flee and never be held accountable for what he did or would be roaming around as an illegal elsewhere.

The Honduran being illegal makes a big difference.The kid in texas had a right to be here, he screwed up, it happens but it's much more tragic if become the victim of someone who is in no way entitled to be even standing on the same land you are. The guy is a criminal anyways, multiple arrests, deported before etc and old enough to know better.

Worse than driving drunk and killing four people? No, but again it's apples and oranges, different situations.

Fair enough. That is your opinion and I respect that. Thank you for your explanation. :up:

[Buddahaid]

Well, your senses are off then.There is a huge difference between a US citizen, a teenager at that, making a stupid decision vast majority of us have made at one point or another, to drive after consuming alcohol.Unfortunately, his stupid decision resulted in the tragedy of four people losing their lives.Now, the kid was 16 at time of incident and this specific case leads into the big picture issue of our flawed and failed justice/corrections(prison) system.Our system is focused on punishment and satisfying the human need for revenge in lieu of punishment and rehabilitation.Sure, some violent offenders are beyond help but the US has 2 million plus people in prison and an extremely high recidivism rate.People usually learn how to be "better" criminals in prison and once out, due to the stigma, are excluded from society in many ways and end up right back in prison.I am certainly no bleeding heart but I am for what works here, and how things are now, do not work.I believe that was part of the judge's thinking, prison is no place for a 16 year old kid who simply made an idiotic mistake that lead to tragedy.Dislike him all you want because is wealthy(seems a lot of hate, kid can't help if he is wealthy anymore than a kid who is poor can) but he is still a kid who made a stupid mistake, he deserves punishment sure but being removed from society and put in prison for many years? Ten years of felony probation is not a slap on the wrist, eps if he ends up with a hard nosed Probation Officer.Imagine trying to finish high school with all these special restrictions? Imagine trying to go to college? Imagine having to ask permission to leave the county, the state, the country? This kid is under the thumb of the government for ten years and I find it highly likely if he does not obey the terms, he will end up in prison........



A valid point I'll agree. That view, however, doesn't fit with the defense of "Afluenza" which reads something like "I never had to be responsible ever before so what's the problem".

[August]

Maybe he wil screw up again while under probation and he might get lucky and get a judge that will actually punish him for all of his crimes.
We can only hope.


Dig it. :yep:

[Stealhead]

Yeah but then he has A**fulenza I mean Afluenza so he'll just say "I can not be held responsible for for violating my probation because like I have Afluenza."

[vienna]

In case you are wondering where that waste of life named Etahn Crouch is likely to end up to serve his "gruelling punishment", here is a link to the rehab center's website:


http://www.newportacademy.com/facilities/boys-residential-campus/


Altogether now: "Nobody knows da trubble I's seen..."



<O>

[TarJak]

Well, your senses are off then.There is a huge difference between a US citizen, a teenager at that, making a stupid decision vast majority of us have made at one point or another, to drive after consuming alcohol.Unfortunately, his stupid decision resulted in the tragedy of four people losing their lives.Now, the kid was 16 at time of incident and this specific case leads into the big picture issue of our flawed and failed justice/corrections(prison) system.Our system is focused on punishment and satisfying the human need for revenge in lieu of punishment and rehabilitation.Sure, some violent offenders are beyond help but the US has 2 million plus people in prison and an extremely high recidivism rate.People usually learn how to be "better" criminals in prison and once out, due to the stigma, are excluded from society in many ways and end up right back in prison.I am certainly no bleeding heart but I am for what works here, and how things are now, do not work.I believe that was part of the judge's thinking, prison is no place for a 16 year old kid who simply made an idiotic mistake that lead to tragedy.Dislike him all you want because is wealthy(seems a lot of hate, kid can't help if he is wealthy anymore than a kid who is poor can) but he is still a kid who made a stupid mistake, he deserves punishment sure but being removed from society and put in prison for many years? Ten years of felony probation is not a slap on the wrist, eps if he ends up with a hard nosed Probation Officer.Imagine trying to finish high school with all these special restrictions? Imagine trying to go to college? Imagine having to ask permission to leave the county, the state, the country? This kid is under the thumb of the government for ten years and I find it highly likely if he does not obey the terms, he will end up in prison.


Interesting how your tune changes depending on the situation. I'd say Jim's senses are spot on:

Someone causes a wreck and is actually drunk, okay they deserve punishment,

How about if they kill someone? Particularly whilst both drunk and on drugs?

In case you are wondering where that waste of life named Etahn Crouch is likely to end up to serve his "gruelling punishment", here is a link to the rehab center's website:


http://www.newportacademy.com/facilities/boys-residential-campus/



Altogether now: "Nobody knows da trubble I's seen..."



<O>
Shawshank redemption it aint.:nope:

[vienna]

Shawshank redemption it aint.:nope:



Also consider these are not like jails; they are not strict lockdown facilities and can be left easily. This place is similar to the "rehab" resort facilities in Malibu and other near by resort beach areas nearby where people like Lindsay Lohan, Chris Brown go and we've all seen how well they've done with their "problems"...


I expect to hear he's gotten out and done some more damage here in California. If he does, he's SOL because the voters of California eliminated 'diminished capacity' as a defense after ther Dan White "twinkie defense" debacle...



<O>

[Tribesman]

Interesting how your tune changes depending on the situation. I'd say Jim's senses are spot on:



How about if they kill someone? Particularly whilst both drunk and on drugs?

what struck me about that post you responded to is the claim that the vast majority of people are drunk drivers. It seems a hell of a stretch, possibly influenced by the persons own perceptions based on their own actions.
But on the specifics, how many drivers have driven at high speed while ****faced on drink and drugs, after consuming alcohol while underage which they had stolen?

[TarJak]

what struck me about that post you responded to is the claim that the vast majority of people are drunk drivers. It seems a hell of a stretch, possibly influenced by the persons own perceptions based on their own actions.
But on the specifics, how many drivers have driven at high speed while ****faced on drink and drugs, after consuming alcohol while underage which they had stolen?

I noticed that. He tried covering himself by saying consume alcohol and not drunk. Which actually is another contradiction on previous posts in the same thread my 2nd quote comes from.

[Bubblehead1980]

Interesting how your tune changes depending on the situation. I'd say Jim's senses are spot on:



How about if they kill someone? Particularly whilst both drunk and on drugs?


Shawshank redemption it aint.:nope:


I explained why Jim's sense are invalid and why there is a difference between the illegal immigrant who crashed into us and the 16 year old in Texas.

[Tribesman]

I explained why Jim's sense are invalid and why there is a difference between the illegal immigrant who crashed into us and the 16 year old in Texas.
The difference being that the 16 year old thief was also on drugs and ended up killing 4 innocent people:doh:

[Bubblehead1980]

what struck me about that post you responded to is the claim that the vast majority of people are drunk drivers. It seems a hell of a stretch, possibly influenced by the persons own perceptions based on their own actions.
But on the specifics, how many drivers have driven at high speed while ****faced on drink and drugs, after consuming alcohol while underage which they had stolen?


Tribes, nearly everyone has driven after consuming some alcohol at some point in their livf.Particularly when younger, as it is when most people tend to engage in high rick behaviors, maybe you are a hardcore "square" choir boy type or one who likes to pretend to be, everyone makes mistakes.DUI is a very common crime in the US, particularly among young people.

Of course, you guys are dragging us away from the topic.I admire the defense employed by his attorney, it's rather clever, one a lot of attorneys would not have the guts to go for.Also, while a light punishment compared prison, I must maintain it is an appropriate one not putting a 16 year old kid into our ineffective and rather brutal prison system.Being a young kid, he is likely to be bullied, sexually assaulted etc and come out more screwed up than he is now, likely to abuse alcohol and drugs even more and do this again or something worse, cushioned by his parent's money until he really screws up.Ten years under felony probation, living in a facility, while comfortable, is still not exactly a vacation spot.This young man will be under the thumb of the staff, not have privileges such as xbox etc(seems minor but often means to the world to people that age) and will not be allowed the usual freedom he would have on the outside.The Judge made the right decision here and admire her for doing so.

I am so sick of majority of people in my country on issues such as this, we have to evolve to solve problems such as the prison crisis and flawed criminal justice system but we can't as a long as people hold the "hang em high" mentality in every case, it's just ignorant and wrong.Much how we look back at "justice" in the old west and even for most of the 20th century as ignorant, and primitive, we may live long enough to look back on this time and think, wow what were we thinking? Or those who come after us will. Like I said, we must move from the punishment/revenge mentality into a punishment but rehabilitation mindset for prisons, if we do, we will see a sharp decline in recidivism rate and elimination of the permanent criminal underclass.

[Tribesman]

Only a drunk driver would defend drunk driving as "normal" behaviour which "everyone" does:nope:

[Bubblehead1980]

The difference being that the 16 year old thief was also on drugs and ended up killing 4 innocent people:doh:


No, the difference is he is a 16 year old kid who had no real concept of the possible consequences of his actions.The illegal immigrant who hit us is a 30 something man, who was not even supposed to be in the same country as me, had no right to do so, who chose to disrespect every us citizen, our way of life etc but even being here.Then, he proceeded to illegally operate a motor vehicle, with no license, no insurance, and while heavily intoxicated.Then he crashed into us and attempted the flee the scene, fortunately I was able to stop him from doing so.

The key difference here is one was a 16 year old kid who was an actual US citizen, who made a mistake the lead to terrible consequences.Four people are dead, putting him in prison will not bring them back.All it will do is satisfy some misguided, outdated notion of "justice" based on the human need for vengeance.Putting this kid in prison solves nothing, but with probation etc, he can serve his time and make a change if he wants, if not, he will end up in prison.

The illegal immigrant who hit me, knew better(as I said) and while I was he would be in a system focused on punishment and rehabilitation then deported, and not able to come back due to a properly secured border, he will likely get some time in local jail then be deported, may or may not make it back but he deserves nothing from us because he does not belong in our society.

Personally, I would like to see the US government use a island they own somewhere(sure they do) that is no inhabited and turn it into a penal colony for illegal immigrants caught reentering the country for a second time or those who commit serious offenses or repeat offenses.One time, they are merely deported, second time, they serve minimum 10 years hard labor on the island, then deported.

Yes, this is more centered on punishment but as they are not members of our society, they are not entitled to rehabilitation.Between a heavily secured border and real consequences for being here illegally, whether its crossing the border or purposely overstaying a visa etc, it would dramatically cut down on the illegal problem.

[Tribesman]

No, the difference is he is a 16 year old kid who had no real concept of the possible consequences of his actions.
Do you believe in the Easter Bunny? the story is just as plausible as the one you are trying to sell:doh:

[Jimbuna]

No, the difference is he is a 16 year old kid who had no real concept of the possible consequences of his actions.The illegal immigrant who hit us is a 30 something man, who was not even supposed to be in the same country as me, had no right to do so, who chose to disrespect every us citizen, our way of life etc but even being here.Then, he proceeded to illegally operate a motor vehicle, with no license, no insurance, and while heavily intoxicated.Then he crashed into us and attempted the flee the scene, fortunately I was able to stop him from doing so.

The key difference here is one was a 16 year old kid who was an actual US citizen, who made a mistake the lead to terrible consequences.Four people are dead, putting him in prison will not bring them back.All it will do is satisfy some misguided, outdated notion of "justice" based on the human need for vengeance.Putting this kid in prison solves nothing, but with probation etc, he can serve his time and make a change if he wants, if not, he will end up in prison.

The illegal immigrant who hit me, knew better(as I said) and while I was he would be in a system focused on punishment and rehabilitation then deported, and not able to come back due to a properly secured border, he will likely get some time in local jail then be deported, may or may not make it back but he deserves nothing from us because he does not belong in our society.

Personally, I would like to see the US government use a island they own somewhere(sure they do) that is no inhabited and turn it into a penal colony for illegal immigrants caught reentering the country for a second time or those who commit serious offenses or repeat offenses.One time, they are merely deported, second time, they serve minimum 10 years hard labor on the island, then deported.

Yes, this is more centered on punishment but as they are not members of our society, they are not entitled to rehabilitation.Between a heavily secured border and real consequences for being here illegally, whether its crossing the border or purposely overstaying a visa etc, it would dramatically cut down on the illegal problem.

What in the US judicial system is the age of criminal responsibility?

Here in the UK it is ten years of age.

Have you ever been in the front line of the consequences of the above because FYI I have and on more occasions than my stomach would like to remember.

As far as I am concerned your remarks are based in the main on what I believe to be on your racist beliefs.

Go tell the families of the four dearly departed what your views are.

Once more I'm informing you publicly that your posts are contentious and in violation of the rules of this forum.

[Bubblehead1980]

Only a drunk driver would defend drunk driving as "normal" behaviour which "everyone" does:nope:


No, I am acknowledging a problem here that is well known.Of course you will try to find a way to turn it on me, but it's the truth most people, at some point, have consumed alcohol then operated a motor vehicle.Drunk? no but technically DUI? Yes, in many cases.Calling someone a drunk driver for a past mistake is bs by the way, but would expect nothing less from you.I have tried to offer the olive branch before but you seem to enjoy getting personal because you have nothing else to offer.Sad little man you are.I would love to meet you one day, just to see if you fit the mental image I have formed of you.

[Bubblehead1980]

What in the US judicial system is the age of criminal responsibility?

Here in the UK it is ten years of age.

Have you ever been in the front line of the consequences of the above because FYI I have and on more occasions than my stomach would like to remember.

As far as I am concerned your remarks are based in the main on what I believe to be on your racist beliefs.

Go tell the families of the four dearly departed what your views are.

Once more I'm informing you publicly that your posts are contentious and in violation of the rules of this forum.


Age of responsibility varies state to state.Most states it is 12-14 but even then.10? wow that is young. Even a 16 year old though does not have the full capacity to recognize consequences of their actions, whatever the law is set at.Issue is not black and white, sorry.

I would tell the families my views if had to, they are based on logic and rationality toward solving a problem, not emotion.

Yes, I have seen the consequences of drunk driving crashes, seen a few when on ride a longs with law enforcement.I lost a friend in college to a drunk driving accident.Still though, no punishment will bring it back, big picture is solving the problem, not getting revenge.


Your views on my "racist beliefs" are incorrect, my views on illegal immigration applies to white european immigrants as much as it would one of hispanic origins. I ask that you remain fair and not censor me on your incorrect perception of beliefs, simply because you disagree.I sent you a PM to discuss this further.

[Tribesman]

:har:

[Mr Quatro]

The 16 year old was driving drunk and on pills too and kills four (4) people and gets 10 years probation instead of a ten year jail sentence.

If he was a poor white teenager would he had of received the same sentence? No! Simply because he was well represented by very expensive professional attorney's. Heck if he was a rich black teenager they would've thrown the book at him.

It was the end of the conversation on NBC this morning, but I could've sworn they said he had to go to a drug rehab treatment center in California every year now for the next ten years and then I heard that the cost was $450,000 a year. That adds up to 4 and 1/2 million dollars ... :o

It should not be legal to be rich and get away with murder :hmmm:

[Bubblehead1980]

The 16 year old was driving drunk and on pills too and kills four (4) people and gets 10 years probation instead of a ten year jail sentence.

If he was a poor white teenager would he had of received the same sentence? No! Simply because he was well represented by very expensive professional attorney's. Heck if he was a rich black teenager they would've thrown the book at him.

It was the end of the conversation on NBC this morning, but I could've sworn they said he had to go to a drug rehab treatment center in California every year now for the next ten years and then I heard that the cost was $450,000 a year. That adds up to 4 and 1/2 million dollars ... :o

It should not be legal to be rich and get away with murder :hmmm:

That is garbage, sorry.There is no evidence to support this and the only thing his family's wealth had to do with his sentence was yes, they could afford a top notch lawyer who employed a rather ingenious defense, and it worked.Even some top notch lawyers would not have thought to employ that defense and may not have had the outcome.The amount of knee jerk reaction class warfare on here is just total nonsense. Then you pulled the race card lol, I believe with a black client and same lawyer, would have had the same outcome.Judge's have discretion in most cases and it is a good thing, not every case is the same, uniform laws such as mandatory minimums are garbage for this reason.

Should not be legal to get away with murder? lol first thing, it was not murder, it was DWI manslaughter.Just bugs me when people use the term murder in a generic manner, it's legally and factually incorrect.There are elements that must be met to be a murder.This was manslaughter and he was given a sentence the judge deemed appropriate, likely for many reasons I have described.Nothing to do with his wealth, race etc.

Yes, his rehab facility is 450k a year but so what? That is no one's business, his family has money, good for them, he won't be burden on the state other than paying for his PO to keep tabs on him.

This kid screwed up, his actions caused the death of four people, injured nine others I believe, it's sad and unfortunate but again, sending him to prison, accomplishes nothing.

I often wish I lived in a more evolved time, this country is still stuck in the dark ages when it comes to certain matters, makes me disgusted and sad to be an american.

[Buddahaid]

He could just as well decided it would have been fun to start shooting randomly in the air. If four people were killed as a result of that would it be any different. The car was a deadly weapon in his hands and I see no difference.

[Bubblehead1980]

He could just as well decided it would have been fun to start shooting randomly in the air. If four people were killed as a result of that would it be any different. The car was a deadly weapon in his hands and I see no difference.


Ugh, there is a difference, that is a simplistic, and inaccurate comparison. Intent is one thing, ever here of malice aforethought? Elements of murder, they don't exist in DUI manslaughter. The kid made a mistake, and will pay for it in the legal sense and sure the fact he killed 4 people will haunt him the rest of his life.

[Buddahaid]

No difference. No intent to harm just shooting in the air like a drunken New Years Eve reveler. A car driven by a drunk is no different in my eyes. It's a deadly weapon.

[August]

the fact he killed 4 people will haunt him the rest of his life.

What makes you think that? The affluence that he claimed was responsible for the incident has limited his punishment to a slap on the wrist.

[Tribesman]

Ugh, there is a difference, that is a simplistic, and inaccurate comparison. Intent is one thing, ever here of malice aforethought?
malice aforethought?
that's what he had when he chose to put the key in the ignition.

the fact he killed 4 people will haunt him the rest of his life.
Why? they were only peasants and his defence is that he doesn't think he was doing anything wrong.

[TarJak]

Someone causes a wreck and is actually drunk, okay they deserve punishment,
The difference bubbles is how much money his parents have. That's his defence.

[Wolferz]

With a vest made of mommy and daddy's money.
I suspect the judge was paid a sum handsome enough to retire on.:-?

It just goes to show that life isn't fair. Especially if you're a peon with no money. The victims of this wealthy "Brat" will just have to sue the insurance company and wait ten years for a decision. The only winners in this will be the blood sucking attorneys.:down:
IMHO, the parents should have been the ones on trial for the kid's stupidity.

[vienna]

This article about Judge Jean Boyd, who sentenced Ethan Crouch, is interesting:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/judge-who-gave-rich-drunk-teen-plush-probation-for-reckless-crash-that-killed-4-sent-14-y-o-black-boy-to-prison-for-punching-death-in-2012-110746/


Also, interesting is the fact Boyd had already spoken of her intention to retire before the sentencing; did she have a sudden addition to her retirement "nest egg"?; or, perhaps, she will now go on to a non-judicial elective office with the suport of some deep pocket "contributor"? This fish smells from the head down...


<O>

[Father Goose]

This article about Judge Jean Boyd, who sentenced Ethan Crouch, is interesting:

Also, interesting is the fact Boyd had already spoken of her attention to retire before the sentencing; did she have a sudden addition to her retirement "nest egg"?; or, perhaps, she will now go on to a non-judicial elective office with the suport of some deep pocket "contributor"? This fish smells from the head down...

Some form of a "retirement gift" probably has/will occur.
Investigators should follow up on this. Pretty bad smell. :Kaleun_Sick:

[Jimbuna]

I ask that you remain fair and not censor me on your incorrect perception of beliefs, simply because you disagree.I sent you a PM to discuss this further.

I have responded to your PM as has the site owner also...a formal ending of the matter.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Recent developments: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53859166#.UrHPPU2A2Ah

[TarJak]

Recent developments: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53859166#.UrHPPU2A2Ah

It would add insult to injury if he escaped jail for pa second time on the same defense.

[Bubblehead1980]

Recent developments: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53859166#.UrHPPU2A2Ah


Okay, that is absolute garbage.The case has been closed, he has been sentenced.The DA is just pandering to outrage now, abuse of power.Luckily, this boy's family has the money to fight it and will likely be able to stop this abuse of power.Amazes me how sheeple go along with government abuse of power when it suits them.

[Buddahaid]

Call me a sheeple if you want to but justice was not blind in this case due to family wealth.
http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/18564188/2/stock-photo-18564188-justice-is-blind-or-maybe-not.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Amazes me how sheeple go along with government abuse of power when it suits them.
It amazes me how you always manage to fall into the same rut.

Four people are dead. Forever. Their families will never know their love again. This "boy" gets sent to summer camp as punishment. That's okay with you because he's rich. Being rich made him do it, so it's not his fault. He didn't know he was too young to be drinking, period. He didn't know that it's illegal to take certain drugs, period. It's not his fault, because daddy has enough money to say it's not his fault.

Don't forget that this "innocent child" is only one year younger than that "thug" Trayvon Martin. Of course you'll jump onto the "no comparison" bandwagon, but my point is not to compare them. My point is to point out that you condemn one and defend the other not because of any difference, but because your opinion of one is different from your opinion of the other. The problem is that you continue to see your opinion as fact, and it's not.

The article you condemn is about whether the judge may or may not have been bought. That remains to be seen. What is obvious is that you will scream to the high heavens over something that you think is wrong, but will defend to the death something you agree with. There would be nothing wrong with that if you were capable of having an actual discussion, but anything you disagree with is "absolute nonsense". When are you finally going to learn that actual fact and your opinion are not the same thing?

[Mr Quatro]

Recent developments: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53859166#.UrHPPU2A2Ah

Thanks for the link ...


If Couch violates the terms of his probation, he could be sent to prison for 10 years.

Under Texas juvenile law, the maximum allowable sentence in Couch's intoxication assault case would be three years in a Texas Juvenile Justice Department facility; he would be released no later than his 19th birthday.

[Jimbuna]

I'll come back to this tomorrow (should I feel it appropriate) but it is beginning to look like reasonable advice and guidance/suggestions are yet again going unheeded.

http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/img233/1673/adminwatch2af0.gif

[August]

Okay, that is absolute garbage.The case has been closed, he has been sentenced.The DA is just pandering to outrage now, abuse of power.Luckily, this boy's family has the money to fight it and will likely be able to stop this abuse of power.Amazes me how sheeple go along with government abuse of power when it suits them.

I don't understand. You claim to be training to become a lawyer so why didn't you notice that there were six people killed/injured in the incident? Your boy has only stood trial for four of them.

What about the other two?

[Bubblehead1980]

It amazes me how you always manage to fall into the same rut.

Four people are dead. Forever. Their families will never know their love again. This "boy" gets sent to summer camp as punishment. That's okay with you because he's rich. Being rich made him do it, so it's not his fault. He didn't know he was too young to be drinking, period. He didn't know that it's illegal to take certain drugs, period. It's not his fault, because daddy has enough money to say it's not his fault.

Don't forget that this "innocent child" is only one year younger than that "thug" Trayvon Martin. Of course you'll jump onto the "no comparison" bandwagon, but my point is not to compare them. My point is to point out that you condemn one and defend the other not because of any difference, but because your opinion of one is different from your opinion of the other. The problem is that you continue to see your opinion as fact, and it's not.

The article you condemn is about whether the judge may or may not have been bought. That remains to be seen. What is obvious is that you will scream to the high heavens over something that you think is wrong, but will defend to the death something you agree with. There would be nothing wrong with that if you were capable of having an actual discussion, but anything you disagree with is "absolute nonsense". When are you finally going to learn that actual fact and your opinion are not the same thing?


I am not defending him or his actions, but defending the sentence against the tide of emotional knee jerk responses that have been put forth to his sentence.Also, disgusted by the "class warfare" crap hearing on here, oh he's rich blah blah.

Being spoiled, entitled etc certainly played a role in things, but being a 16 year old, who like most do no fully understand the consequences etc of their actions.Does it excuse him? No, but should he go to prison for 20 years? Absolutely not.I explained why, that our prisons are about revenge and punishment, not punishment and rehabilitation and that no good would come out of him going to prison.

Show me evidence the judge was paid off? That is all "rich hatred" fueled speculation.

I recall saying that Martin case was sad because he was young, and did not know any better, but that does no change the fact he was bashing zimmerman's head in and Zimmerman defended himself with his firearm, that is what the evidence shows.Martin was trying to be a thug, he used a racist term according to his girlfriend.Shame he did not survive the incident and grow from it, but that is what happens.Ethan Couch made a dumb mistake as well, that cost four people their lives and is being punished accordingly and reasonably for someone his age.

[Bubblehead1980]

I don't understand. You claim to be training to become a lawyer so why didn't you notice that there were six people killed/injured in the incident? Your boy has only stood trial for four of them.

What about the other two?


First of all, there is no claim, I am.Nice thinly veiled insult though.Second, my understanding was those charges were not being pursued, not it seems since didn't get the sentence they wanted, they are trying to pile it on.Third, he is not my boy.Like I just told Steve, just defending him against the knee jerk emotion based reaction to a perceived slap on the wrist.

[August]

First of all, there is no claim, I am.Nice thinly veiled insult though.Second, my understanding was those charges were not being pursued, not it seems since didn't get the sentence they wanted, they are trying to pile it on.Third, he is not my boy.Like I just told Steve, just defending him against the knee jerk emotion based reaction to a perceived slap on the wrist.

No thinly veiled insult Bub. I have absolutely no proof that you are what you claim to be, but I can't fail to notice that you seem completely blindsided by a rather obvious possibility.

Now i'm nothing but an old shop teacher however even I know that just because those lesser charges weren't being pursued at the time it doesn't mean they wouldn't be taken up later on.

If you were this kids lawyer would you have been prepared for it?

[Wolferz]

Prosecutors are sneaky fellows.:shifty:
They are just playing CYOA in response to the public outrage of a questionable sentence of what appears to be a shady judge.
She's not the first and definitely not the last.:hmmm:
Money talks and BS walks and all that rot.
Unless we are citizens of that jurisdiction, there's not much we can do about it.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Being spoiled, entitled etc certainly played a role in things, but being a 16 year old, who like most do no fully understand the consequences etc of their actions.Does it excuse him? No, but should he go to prison for 20 years? Absolutely not.I explained why, that our prisons are about revenge and punishment, not punishment and rehabilitation and that no good would come out of him going to prison.
My understanding is that a person from the age of 13 is supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. So if a 16 year old who shouldn't be drinking in the first place gets himself stone dead drunk, kills four people, two more people are seriously injured as a result of his actions and he gets what can be considered a slap on the wrist for said actions how would you expect people to respond?

Chances are if this had happened with your "average joe", that person would of maybe gotten 3 days to 2 years or more in prison depending on the offence and the charges and that would of been the end of it, and in this case where a 16 year old is given 10 years probation and sent to a "rehab center" in California. The punishment doesn't fit the crime. Now I would agree that sending him to prison wouldn't do any good, the prison system in the country is broken and hasn't been fixed, and it probably won't be either. But instead of jail time shouldn't a different sentence of been handed down like community service?

These are the DUI laws of Texas according to DrivingLaws.org http://dui.drivinglaws.org/texas.php.
Now has Couch's driving license been revoked? As far as I know it has not.
Has he been placed imprisoned according to the State law? No, he has been sentenced to probation for 10 years.
Has he been fined according to State law? Not that I'm aware of.

[Sailor Steve]

just defending him against the knee jerk emotion based reaction to a perceived slap on the wrist.
That's the second time you've used the phrase "knee-jerk". The phrase means to react in a predictable and automatic manner. Do you deny that this describes the vast majority of your own posts?

[Tribesman]

Absolutely not.I explained why, that our prisons are about revenge and punishment, not punishment and rehabilitation and that no good would come out of him going to prison.



You explained why you think so, that doesn't make it so.

Show me evidence the judge was paid off? That is all "rich hatred" fueled speculation.

Now that is over an allegation of corruption, your denial without evidence carries no weight in regards that matter.
As for "rich hatred", that makes a huge blind assumption about a lot of peoples wealth.
I think part of your problem is your perception, you have this flawed view that the vast majority of people don't really see much wrong with drunk driving, I think you will find the vast majority of people think drunk drivers are stupid selfish criminal scum.

[TarJak]

Like I just told Steve, just defending him against the knee jerk emotion based reaction to a perceived slap on the wrist.

Was your comment that a drunk driver who caused a wreck should be punished, which I quoted a while back, an emotional knee jerk reaction from you?

[Bubblehead1980]

Was your comment that a drunk driver who caused a wreck should be punished, which I quoted a while back, an emotional knee jerk reaction from you?


No, my reaction was not knee jerk nor emotional, the facts of the incident were much simpler than the Couch case.Illegal immigrant, already breaking law by being here, illegally operated a motor vehicle, no license, no insurance, plus he was heavily intoxicated, crashed into my girlfriends vehicle, which we were in.Luckily, no one was seriously injured and her car will be ready tomorrow.

I was actually more angry about that fact it was an illegal who had no right to even be in this country.A lot of people drink and drive, some even when they are actually intoxicated, it's a risk you run getting on the road unfortunately but it angered me even more fact it was an illegal immigrant who put us at risk since if we had proper boarder security and immigration enforcement, he would not have been there to hit us.I would push for punishment etc if he was not an illegal but the illegal immigrant aspect is the part that grinds my gears.

[TarJak]

No, my reaction was not knee jerk nor emotional, the facts of the incident were much simpler than the Couch case.Illegal immigrant, already breaking law by being here, illegally operated a motor vehicle, no license, no insurance, plus he was heavily intoxicated, crashed into my girlfriends vehicle, which we were in.Luckily, no one was seriously injured and her car will be ready tomorrow.

I was actually more angry about that fact it was an illegal who had no right to even be in this country.A lot of people drink and drive, some even when they are actually intoxicated, it's a risk you run getting on the road unfortunately but it angered me even more fact it was an illegal immigrant who put us at risk since if we had proper boarder security and immigration enforcement, he would not have been there to hit us.I would push for punishment etc if he was not an illegal but the illegal immigrant aspect is the part that grinds my gears.
Interesting, because the quote I'm talking about was posted a full month prior to the thread on your illegal immigrant incident was started. Remember the one where you said drivers should be able to drink and drive with impunity unless they actually cause a wreck?

Here is the quote again:
Someone causes a wreck and is actually drunk, okay they deserve punishment,

Your responses appear to be inconsistent.

[Tribesman]

Interesting, because the quote I'm talking about was posted a full month prior to the thread on your illegal immigrant incident was started. Remember the one where you said drivers should be able to drink and drive with impunity unless they actually cause a wreck?

Here is the quote again:


Your responses appear to be inconsistent.
Now that's just sneaky:rotfl2:

Bubbles how can you say you were not emotional when you say you were angry?

[TarJak]

Now that's just sneaky:rotfl2:

Bubbles how can you say you were not emotional when you say you were angry?
Nothing sneaky at all. I've already posted the same quote twice in this thread so I assumed it would be superredundant posting a 3rd time.

I'm more interested in what's wrong with being emotional? I know I am. IMHO its a major part of being human. It certainly doesn't mean that I don't think about my responses.

[Bubblehead1980]

Now that's just sneaky:rotfl2:

Bubbles how can you say you were not emotional when you say you were angry?


Lol you guys amuse me, you are true liberals, love to take things out of context and try to muddy the waters of the argument. Initially I was angry, sure, like most would be, but the anger has subsided mostly, it creeps in now and then but overall not emotional over this.Now, the concern is over the broken immigration system and how it is a danger to us all, it just happened to hit close to home this time. The knee jerk emotional reaction to the couch case is the "hang em high" attitude so many have demonstrated, claiming he should go to prison, invoking the tired old "what about the victims families?" line.While I absolutely feel for them, their need for vengeance does not outweigh the appropriate punishment for Couch. Like I have said, sending him to prison accomplishes nothing and in the long run, will just cause more harm than good.

[Madox58]

more harm than good
I'm all for that after haveing a home invasion that sent my Step son and his friend to hospitals.
Put this chunk of crap away!

As a side comment............
I also only have your word (bubbles) as to the Lawyer stuff.
I can say You shift your views like all the ones I did work very closely with back a few years ago.

[Sailor Steve]

Lol you guys amuse me, you are true liberals, love to take things out of context and try to muddy the waters of the argument.
I notice you completely ignored my little post. Am I a true liberal?

[TarJak]

Lol you guys amuse me, you are true liberals, love to take things out of context and try to muddy the waters of the argument.
:har: Can't help it if you are tripping over your own words. The mud is coming from your own shoes.

[Platapus]

Why do you guys even bother responding to him?:/\\!!

[TarJak]

Largely for fun. But occasionally for more serious reasons

[Madox58]

I'm afraid it's becomeing a hobby of sorts, now that you mention it?
:hmmm:
Kind of like pokeing a stick into the side of a possom to see if it moves or not.

[Father Goose]

I don't know...I think Tribesman will be here shortly to exploit this gaffe.

No, I think you and Tarjak have it thoroughly nailed down already:up:

Why do you guys even bother responding to him?:/\\!!

They try to stay away but it's an addiction. They just can't resist. :har:

[vienna]

Sometimes Bubble reminds me of the Black Knight in the Monty Python "Holy Grail" film: he gets hacked away at by the forum members until he and his arguments are stumps and the he tries to bite you as a final resort...


<O>

[Madox58]

Sometimes Bubble reminds me of the Black Knight in the Monty Python "Holy Grail" film: he gets hacked away at by the forum members until he and his arguments are stumps and the he tries to bite you as a final resort...


<O>

How DARE you insult Monty Python like this!
:stare:

[Jimbuna]

Why do you guys even bother responding to him?:/\\!!

The simple fact of the matter is....some can't resist the temptation.

[Jimbuna]

Now I'm being watched....again!! :)

[Madox58]

Now I'm being watched....again!! :)

Kick him in the knee! It's a soft spot from what I hear.
:haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Kick him in the knee! It's a soft spot from what I hear.
:haha:
Thanks for reminding me of the cheer I learned in elementary school, fifty years ago:

"Ra, ra ree! Kick him in the knee! Ra, ra, rass! Kick him in the other knee!" :O:

[magic452]

Thanks for reminding me of the cheer I learned in elementary school, fifty years ago:

"Ra, ra ree! Kick him in the knee! Ra, ra, rass! Kick him in the other knee!" :O:


Did we go to the same school? :hmm2:
I was just thinking of the very same cheer. :har:

Magic

[Wolferz]

Did we go to the same school? :hmm2:
I was just thinking of the very same cheer. :har:

Magic
I think we all went to that school.:haha:
That chant is right up there with nana nana boo boo...

Don't pick on Bubblehead please. It's unprofessional.:03:
He probably subscribes to the same mantra I do...
It's ok if we disagree, I can't force you to be right.:arrgh!:

[Bubblehead1980]

Ah, where to begin. I've explained my position on things pretty clear.Instead of responding, my usual opponents/detractors on here choose to TRY and take remarks I have made out of context and use them against me.Funny thing is, they proved nothing, was not a touche moment or anything, simply try to make things I have said mean something completely different than what I meant.I have clarified and explained, but for several of them, I could say something they totally agree with but they would disagree, because it is personal for them and that is fine.This is not personal for me as far as members on this board, exception maybe being tribesman but have learned to just treat him like the goober from Duck Dynasty, just ignore and try to be understanding.Actually, I recall we did agree on something once lol.

The Ethan Couch sentencing is an argument where I do not mind being in the minority because the mob, the majority want him in prison, those of us who have thought it over, understand this was not murder, understand the elements of murder, the legal reasoning behind the sentence etc ,see that probation is appropriate in this case, for this defendant.

[Sailor Steve]

Instead of responding, my usual opponents/detractors on here choose to TRY and take remarks I have made out of context and use them against me.
I responded, and you ignored. You still choose to ignore.

I have clarified and explained, but for several of them, I could say something they totally agree with but they would disagree, because it is personal for them and that is fine.
Why is it personal? Do they disagree with your views and make it personal? They don't do that to others. Why you? Is there something special about you that they just have to hate? Or do the things you say and the way you say them lack credibility, which prompts people who also really to think for themselves to see that whatever your opinions, your arguments are consistently lacking?

I've tried to point out to you many times that the latter is at least as likely as the former, but you still don't get it. Nobody makes it personal. Nobody even cares. It's your failed arguments that they attack. Of course people slip into humor, because when you express yourself poorly they can't take you seriously.

The Ethan Couch sentencing is an argument where I do not mind being in the minority because the mob, the majority want him in prison, those of us who have thought it over, understand this was not murder, understand the elements of murder, the legal reasoning behind the sentence etc ,see that probation is appropriate in this case, for this defendant.
And there's where you do it again. You don't mind being in the minority, because anyone who disagrees with you is "the mob". You accuse others of insulting you, yet you smear anyone and everyone with the same huge brush. Unlike you, "The Mob" doesn't think for itself. That sounds nice on broadband, but you are also saying Tarjak doesn't think for himself. Tribesman doesn't think for himself. Do I think for myself? Am I "The Mob"?

You have stated your opinion, which is good. The problem is that as usual you don't see that the way you state it is everything. The problem is that you don't sound like you have a trained legal mind. Most of your posts make you sound extremely opinionated, somewhat in the vein of Archie Bunker. People who are capable of arguing properly are aware that they might be wrong, and are actually willing to be swayed by proper arguments. That you don't sway anyone is due to the fact that you come across as convinced of your own rightness, therefore anything you say tends to be condescending. You act as though you believe your are right in everything you say, therefore people should sit up and listen to you. The problem there is that you rarely say anything in a manner that makes people want to listen to you. You may dismiss that as not your problem, but in fact that is the problem you have here, every single time.

Maybe others are right. Maybe you need to find a political forum where everybody is like you - shouting about their own rightness and blaming everybody else but themselves.

[Tribesman]

Pile of tripe
However.
Bubbles, can you point out the people who want him tried for murder
?
You say that you in your wisdom can see it was not murder, where are these people who cannot see the light which you see.

Once again your own words screw you, you introduced murder because as a "legal expert" you didn't understand the valid reckless endangerment comparison which someone else introduced:doh:

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I'm getting a strong sense of double standards and a fair amount of hypocrisy here.

Has anyone brought up the case of the black kid who was two years younger who got sentenced to 10 years by the same judge for killing one person, yet?

[Sailor Steve]

Has anyone brought up the case of the black kid who was two years younger who got sentenced to 10 years by the same judge for killing one person, yet?
I'm not sure if anyone has brought it up here, but I noted that one of the articles says she tried to keep him out of prison too, but no facility would have him as he had no resources to pay the prices they demanded. :dead:

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I'm not sure if anyone has brought it up here, but I noted that one of the articles says she tried to keep him out of prison too, but no facility would have him as he had no resources to pay the prices they demanded. :dead:

My original post was horribly written.

[Sailor Steve]

My original post was horribly written.
I understood it.

Unless I didn't and only thought I did. :sunny:

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I understood it.

Unless I didn't and only thought I did. :sunny:
Well, I guess I thought it was a bit inelegant.

Here's an amusing "what if":

What if the judge were black, the kid were black, the kid's dad was a known liberal and supporter of Obama, and everything else was identical? You think Bubblehead's reaction to the judgement would also be identical?

[Sailor Steve]

I'm sure he would say otherwise, but it's not for me to second-guess anybody, especially when they haven't posted for awhile.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

I'm sure he would say otherwise, but it's not for me to second-guess anybody, especially when they haven't posted for awhile.

I wasn't really expecting an answer, was just trying to spotlight something.

[Sailor Steve]

I wasn't really expecting an answer, was just trying to spotlight something.
I know. I just see no point in doing so if he's not part of the conversation anymore.