I've got a question about 60mm Mortars

[Red October1984]

Anybody who happens to know:

I watched Saving Private Ryan tonight. Now the scene where they tap mortars on the plate and throw them I called BS on....but apparently, my Dad says, my artilleryman Grandfather said it was doable.

Where is the propellent charge in that scene? Is the scene BS?

I don't know who to believe here, because my grandfather went through West Point and the guy was very smart. I would take anything he says to be the truth...but mortars are set off by a firing pin that hits the base charge that propels it out of the tube right?

Where is the propellent charge when you hit it against a metal plate? :hmmm:

[Stealhead]

Yes you could with the old 60mm rounds in fact two Medals of Honor where awarded where the recipient smacked them against a rock and then tossed them one in WWII and one in Korea.Saving Private Ryan is actually accurate in that part though I think they just smacked in real life there was a safety pin that had to be removed before the round was used in any way.

The propellant is not relevant all it does is send the round a certain distance it does not arm the round.If you are going to toss the thing by hand you have no need for a propellent charge.


By the way I did not know any of this until I typed "Can a Mortar round be used like they do in Saving Private Ryan" into Google the 4th item gave me the correct answer.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?249766-a-mortar-question

8th post.

[Red October1984]

The propellant is not relevant all it does is send the round a certain distance it does not arm the round.If you are going to toss the thing by hand you have no need for a propellent charge.

I am just wondering where the propellent goes when you smack it against a rock. Does the shell just arm after 3 seconds?

The link that has the design of the fuse shows the booster charge. I'm assuming that is what actually fired the shell from the tube. There's also a time delay that arms it 3 seconds after it leaves the muzzle.

It'd be interesting to see this happen on a high speed camera or something.

Now that I know it's doable to throw these things, I'd like to see it. :hmm2:

[Stealhead]

It seems logical to me that any shell would need some amount of propellant change to send it free from the tube.When they get a call they know the approximate range and of course adjusting the angle of the tube has an effect.With no charge it might just be able to clear the tube.

So my guess would be that there must be a full size bag and when the range is lower than maximum you remove a section of the bag.Usually on more modern rounds they are ring shaped and you remove a certain amount.It must be fairly easy because you need to be able to do it in a few seconds.

Just like other artillery they usually test fire a few rounds a day at different ranges and usually in the pit key points of interest will have there own mark.A unit in the field might also find a position that looks useful to the enemy so they'll call it in have a test round dropped in and the crew notes the location.

According to this guy it works like this he thinks it is different with WWII rounds but I think it was the same only the charge was an actual small bag that had sections in it so you could tear them off and I think in Vietnam it was the same.

That trick may have only worked with the 60mm round anyway being smaller it looks like it might have a different arming method.With more modern rounds I doubt that simply smacking them against something would arm them.Obviously they came with the max charge which would first have to be removed so SPR is wrong to some extent because they just grabbed them with no charge and that would not happen as with normal use no charge would make the round useless via a tube.


"There is no propellant in the mortar round itself, just the explosive charge. The propellant is a thin square piece of plastic like material with a hole in the middle. There is a cut from the outside of the square to the hold. The end of the mortar where the fins are located has a thin tube area, kind of like the neck of a bowling pin. Around this neck is where the squares of the propellant are placed. The more squares, the further the round will go. They are about the size of a slice of American cheese, hence the name "cheese charge" as the previous poster pointed out. Looking at them, you wouldn't realize that they were extremely volatile. But at the end of a training day, you will have a whole bunch of these things left over, because most rounds aren't fired for maximum distance. They are piled up at a safe distance and then some type of chain of propellant is built up. When these things are lit they go up is a blaze of glory."


WWII 60MM charges went on the fins
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/M49A2_zps0453aedc.gif~original (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/datsun260zyojimbo/media/M49A2_zps0453aedc.gif.html)

Vietnam 81mm charges go around the the lower body(would have been the same for larger WWII era rounds) the charges are white.
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/Mortars-11_zps9d6fcfc2.jpg~original (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/datsun260zyojimbo/media/Mortars-11_zps9d6fcfc2.jpg.html)

Modern same as Vietnam era just a more modern type of charge.
http://i1162.photobucket.com/albums/q527/datsun260zyojimbo/mortar_m224_60mm_2_800_zpse02b7787.jpg~original (http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/datsun260zyojimbo/media/mortar_m224_60mm_2_800_zpse02b7787.jpg.html)

[Red October1984]

Okay...then how come I have never seen these "cheese charges."

Maybe I have and it just never clicked that that's what it is. :hmmm:

TO GOOGLE! AWAY!!!

[GoldenRivet]

http://90thidpg.us/Equipment/Weapons/Increments/

some info on the propellant

[Stealhead]

Okay...then how come I have never seen these "cheese charges."

Maybe I have and it just never clicked that that's what it is. :hmmm:

TO GOOGLE! AWAY!!!


Well these "Cheese Charge" is the modern propellant before that it was a bag even though it does look like a bag in the Vietnam photo it is a bag that can be removed in section to reduce the range.

In the case of the WWII 60mm those bags at the bottom of the page that GoldenRivet linked they would have been attached to the fins and out of the box it would have had the full load of propellent bags.So to use one "chuck and duck" style you'd first need to remove the bags cause they might get set of by your vigorous smacking which would be doing the enemy a favor.

Unless you where a mortar man it really would not be common knowledge.

I have a friend who was a mortar man in the Canadian Army the only reason I knew about some of that information was from him talking about tubes.

[TorpX]

I am just wondering where the propellent goes when you smack it against a rock. Does the shell just arm after 3 seconds?




The main charge would remain in the tail of the shell. It really doesn't matter; you would not want to set it off by hitting it against a rock. You would likely get your hand burnt.

The link that has the design of the fuse shows the booster charge. I'm assuming that is what actually fired the shell from the tube. There's also a time delay that arms it 3 seconds after it leaves the muzzle.

The term "booster" usually refers to an explosive charge that detonates the main bursting charge. Some explosives require a booster to properly detonate them, a small detonator not being sufficient.

There wasn't a time delay for these rounds. A mortar shell fired could be set off by tree branches, for example.

From post #4:

US mortars had/have a tranverse, bore-riding safety pin, that is released by set-back upon firing. The pin is spring-loaded and flies away when the round leaves the tube - and until it does, the fuze is prevented from functioning. US mortar rounds are armed IMMEDIATELY upon that pin springing free (just as the round leaves the muzzle of the tube) and the fuzes are very sensitive - a small branch (say = pencil-sized) is adequate to initiate one. I am aware of a training accident (one that killed part of and inujred others in the firing crew and caused an NCO and officer to receive Article 15s) when an 81mm was set up too close to a tree (for concealment) and when fired - hitting a branch set off the round.



In WWII the propellant increments were contained in cloth bags. In the Pacific, this lead to problems when the propellant became damp. The rounds internally were ok, and would fire, but because the increments were damp, they would have short rounds. I'm not sure when this problem was solved, but the systems described in the recent sources seem to have eliminated such concerns.

[Stealhead]

The main charge would remain in the tail of the shell. It really doesn't matter; you would not want to set it off by hitting it against a rock. You would likely get your hand burnt.
Under normal circumstances that would be true but in a "crap has hit the fan enemy is over running you and your possibly going to die anyway take as many down as you can" situation you could smack an old 60mm against a rock or other solid object and chuck them at the enemy.

Here are two MOH recipients that did just this.It does not say if they removed the charges or not but in a dire situation I doubt getting your hands burned is the most urgent concern.Use of 60mm rounds as seen in Saving Private Ryan is described in the award citation.

I'm sure it must have been done in other close shave situations where no medal was awarded.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauford_T._Anderson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_E._Kelly

[Aktungbby]

Great question Red October, and superb research and info Stealhead & GoldenRivet; especially on the MOH guys! Thanks Kaleuns!:salute:

[Red October1984]

The main charge would remain in the tail of the shell. It really doesn't matter; you would not want to set it off by hitting it against a rock. You would likely get your hand burnt.

That's what I was thinking. Somebody's hand would get burnt here. I looked through different ways they used as the "primer" I guess...

The 12G shotgun shell type of deals that stuck in the back end. Clarifies things a bit.

In WWII the propellant increments were contained in cloth bags. In the Pacific, this lead to problems when the propellant became damp. The rounds internally were ok, and would fire, but because the increments were damp, they would have short rounds. I'm not sure when this problem was solved, but the systems described in the recent sources seem to have eliminated such concerns.

I remember that being in With The Old Breed. I can't remember exactly what they did...it's been a little bit since I read that.

Makes sense now.

I just want to know....what do these bags look like and surely they don't just dangle from the shell when you pull one from the box. :hmmm: That might be a bit dangerous.

If my Grandfather was still around, I'd ask him. But...sadly...he died in 2006.

Artillery is one of the family traditions it seems like...Dad, Grandfather, Great-Grandfather... :hmmm:

[Stealhead]

I just want to know....what do these bags look like and surely they don't just dangle from the shell when you pull one from the box. :hmmm: That might be a bit dangerous.



Refer to post #4 middle photo the bags looked like that on larger rounds and on the 60mm they fit into slots on the fins to see what the bag looked like refer to the bottom of the page that GoldenRivet linked there is a photo of the T.O. for the 60mm showing a drawing of the bags.

The only time you pull a round from a box is when it is going to be used in the not to distant future so as long as your not jabbing the thing with a hammer it would be some what safe.Remember that there was also at least one safety pin that must be removed before the round is armed.Remember also that a mortar is a tube based weapon and has a fairly loose bore and also is a low velocity round therefore it dose not need a as large an amount of pressure to propel it away and to its target in fact it only needs enough energy to reach a little past the apex after that it is free falling and gravity is actually the friend of a mortar round.

In comparison an 81mm mortar would need a substantial amount less pressure than a comparable size shell for a gun would need a 75mm or 88mm gun who both taking an educated guess need at least 3 or 4 times the powder to propel a round.

[Red October1984]

Refer to post #4 middle photo the bags looked like that on larger rounds and on the 60mm they fit into slots on the fins to see what the bag looked like refer to the bottom of the page that GoldenRivet linked there is a photo of the T.O. for the 60mm showing a drawing of the bags.

The only time you pull a round from a box is when it is going to be used in the not to distant future so as long as your not jabbing the thing with a hammer it would be some what safe.Remember that there was also at least one safety pin that must be removed before the round is armed.Remember also that a mortar is a tube based weapon and has a fairly loose bore and also is a low velocity round therefore it dose not need a as large an amount of pressure to propel it away and to its target in fact it only needs enough energy to reach the apex after that it is free falling.

In comparison an 81mm mortar would need a substantial amount less pressure than a comparable size shell for a gun would need a 75mm or 88mm gun who both taking an educated guess need at least 3 or 4 times the powder to propel a round.

I see now...

:up: Thanks :salute:

[Stealhead]

To give you an idea how low the velocity is on the far end it is not uncommon for people to have mortar round hit their body and fail to explode and only cause minor injury because it lacked the velocity to do much more than become embedded in the subcutaneous tissue.Most likely body tissue has enough give not set off the round.

A rather hairy operation to remove the round but it has occurred enough times not to be an extremely rare occurrence.

In Iraq there was at least one occurrence where a person was hit by a dud RPG round and survived.In that case I'd guess that either the round was a dud and also had a weak motor and did not reach full velocity.Normally an RPG round is fast enough to be fatal even when it fails to explode.Or the rocket might have been fired from extreme range and lot enough velocity to not be fatal all though the person was fairly seriously injured.I say that because RPG have penetrated vehicle and gone through the bodies and limbs of several people killing those unlucky enough to take a body hit and removing the limbs of others just the rocket body not from the warhead going off.I think with an RPG you'd also need the luck that the round was a HEAT round and not an anti-personal round.HEAT has a delay fuse the later does not.

[TorpX]

Under normal circumstances that would be true but in a "crap has hit the fan enemy is over running you and your possibly going to die anyway take as many down as you can" situation you could smack an old 60mm against a rock or other solid object and chuck them at the enemy.

Here are two MOH recipients that did just this.It does not say if they removed the charges or not but in a dire situation I doubt getting your hands burned is the most urgent concern.Use of 60mm rounds as seen in Saving Private Ryan is described in the award citation.

I'm sure it must have been done in other close shave situations where no medal was awarded.




I'm not doubting you. What I meant to say is that hitting the shell against a plate or rock to use ala Private Ryan would not fire the propellant, and that firing the propellant isn't required to arm the shell.

I think the hardest part of all that would be getting the shell to hit hard against something nose first so it would explode (being in a big hurry and with krauts shooting at you and all).

[Red October1984]

In Iraq there was at least one occurrence where a person was hit by a dud RPG round and survived.In that case I'd guess that either the round was a dud and also had a weak motor and did not reach full velocity.Normally an RPG round is fast enough to be fatal even when it fails to explode.Or the rocket might have been fired from extreme range and lot enough velocity to not be fatal all though the person was fairly seriously injured.I say that because RPG have penetrated vehicle and gone through the bodies and limbs of several people killing those unlucky enough to take a body hit and removing the limbs of others just the rocket body not from the warhead going off.I think with an RPG you'd also need the luck that the round was a HEAT round and not an anti-personal round.HEAT has a delay fuse the later does not.

I read a story about that one where they removed the RPG. I remember reading that SOP at the time was to just stick the guy behind sandbags until he died and then they can get it removed.

This doctor said "NO! Bring him in here" and they successfully operated on him and removed it.

It would really really suck to know that if I got an RPG stuck in me that all they're going to do is put me behind sandbags til I die.

I think the hardest part of all that would be getting the shell to hit hard against something nose first so it would explode (being in a big hurry and with krauts shooting at you and all).


It's top-heavy right? Throw it with your hand on the tail. It'll fly straight and probably land on it's nose. :hmmm:

[vanjast]

This doctor said "NO! Bring him in here" and they successfully operated on him and removed it.
I hope that the doctor and the medical team got medals (for what these are worth) for that - Did the guy live ?

[Red October1984]

I hope that the doctor and the medical team got medals (for what these are worth) for that - Did the guy live ?

IIRC the doctor and medical team were decorated and the guy did live.

[Stealhead]

He did live he lives in Georgia now.What they did was have an EOD specialist assist in the procedure.I first heard about this on a NatGeo Show "Inside the War in Afghanistan" which was first aired in 2010 or 2011.

Tells the story fairly well.Compare what he looks like in the top photo and some of the others to the one taken a few months after the RPG removal (7th photo).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392699/Incredible-story-Channing-Moss-soldier-survived-impaled-unexploded-bomb-Afghanistan.html

Video of the operation (graphic) http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=19c_1222920596

@vanjast you'll find that most truly honorable people would do what they did even if they received no accolades for their actions.