Remember Pearl Harbor

[August]

Annual salute to our honored dead. May they rest in peace.

[Dread Knot]

Salute!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bX1ointskBw/TuBtTOo1W4I/AAAAAAAADDQ/PfrfzySkWt0/s1600/USS%2BArizona%2BMemorial%2BPearl%2BHarbor.jpg

[BossMark]

:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

:salute: Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK8gYGg0dkE

[Jimbuna]

A date I'll never forget for two reasons...it is also the date of my fathers passing.

RIP to them all.

[fireftr18]

:Kaleun_Salute:

[u crank]

A date I'll never forget for two reasons...it is also the date of my fathers passing.

My daughter's birthday.

To the fallen, R.I.P.

:salute:

[Bubblehead1980]

Went to a memorial service this morning with my grandfather.Cold morning and at 94, he still made it out.Seeing the few old vets there from various branches, always allows you to pick up on the emotion, quite moving.

[Red October1984]

Salute to all those who died and those who died in the war.

:salute: :salute: :salute:

[Wolferz]

RIP:salute:

[Oberon]

One cannot help but be impressed at the level of planning and care that went into this attack, however ultimately it was a foolhardy endeavour. As Admiral Hara Tadaichi put it "We won a great tactical victory at Pearl Harbor and thereby lost the war."

A salute to the fallen.

[Jimbuna]

One cannot help but be impressed at the level of planning and care that went into this attack, however ultimately it was a foolhardy endeavour. As Admiral Hara Tadaichi put it "We won a great tactical victory at Pearl Harbor and thereby lost the war."

A salute to the fallen.

The attack would have been a much bigger success had the flat tops been there but that still wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war, maybe lengthen it a bit.

[Oberon]

The attack would have been a much bigger success had the flat tops been there but that still wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war, maybe lengthen it a bit.

A year or two at most I would wager, likewise any attack on the oil and repair facilities in a third wave (although any advantages of having destroyed the oil and repair facilities in a third wave would have been offset by the heavy loss of aircraft and experienced pilots now that the AAA crews were wide awake and very angry). Although to be honest, even if the flat-tops had been in Pearl, it's questionable how much priority would have been placed on them over the battleships by the Japanese Naval Command, since at that time it was believed that any major battle between the USN and IJN would be between battleships and the carrier and aircraft would play a secondary supportive role. The US was coming to terms with the growth of carrier operations when Pearl took place (thanks to General Billy Mitchell and his air power demonstration) and the loss of a chunk of their battleships, plus their slow speed, accelerated their carrier strategy which is still in place today to some extent.

[Kptlt. Neuerburg]

Found this on YT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyQDT3EZQ2k I remember that somewhere I had a cd with that song and a few others.

[Sailor Steve]

Although to be honest, even if the flat-tops had been in Pearl, it's questionable how much priority would have been placed on them over the battleships by the Japanese Naval Command, since at that time it was believed that any major battle between the USN and IJN would be between battleships and the carrier and aircraft would play a secondary supportive role.
An excellent point. Despite the British attack on Taranto the previous year, it was still assumed by both sides that battleships were the ultimate seagoing war machine, and seaborne aircraft were just a side show. It was Pearl Harbor that made the first step toward disproving that belief, so you could very well be right that the carriers may have been a low priority anyway.

On the other hand I've never studied the actual Japanese battle plan, so those documents may say otherwise.

[Admiral Von Gerlach]

I am glad to see this thread and the kind comments and respectful rememberance.

My cousin Franklin Van Valkenberg woke that morning on his ship, and went to early chow and then to the flag raising as was his usual routine on such mornings, some were ashore on leave and it was a clear sunny day in Pearl. He then went to the bridge and was there when strange air craft were sighted and he sounded an early alarm and call for All Hands to man battle stations, he was one of the first to so command his crew to prepare.

http://gonebutnotforgotten.homestead.com/files/Kirkpatrick.jpg

He loved his command and it was the pinnacle of a long dedicated naval career and he had encouraged his son also to enter the service. Both were dedicated naval men and loved the service and the sea.

The events of the next few minutes I am sure seemed like hours and yet were over very fast. All efforts to fight the ship and to get underway to move into the main channel were to no avail for powder had been stored in the forward magazine for the signal gun that was un secured and it was detonated by a large bomb that fell almost exactly in the right/wrong place and the magazine detonated and took with it the ship. The ship was the BB 39, and she remains largely in location and he remains at his post tho divers did recover his sword for the family which we still have from his day cabin not too far from the bridge.

His son served aboard the DD named for his father, and served a long career. We always remember him on this day, and the others who so served and many who remain at their posts or in the memorial graveyards there and in the US.

http://gonebutnotforgotten.homestead.com/VanValkenburgh.html

The Japanese had goals and aims for their destiny as did any nation and I have come to respect and admire their culture and in fact work a lot with people form Japan in some of my current work and have the highest regard for them as a nation, one of the finest and most civilized modern cultures. that war was unfortunate and a clash in both ecomonic terms as well as military, and the events of that early stage of the war were unfortunate. In my research and life of study of naval history and matters, I have learned that the Japanese did indeed intend to have a suprirse but not a undeclared one. The offical declaration of war was supposed to be delivered in adavance of the actual attack, but the two highest ranking officals in the Japanese embassy in Washington DC were career men and insisted on doing the decoding of the message and the typiing of the Declaration themselves and refused the help of the trained staff and delayed the delivery of the Declaration by quite a bit of time. It was an unfortunate event and had serious and grave results. It caused a lot of hate and rancor that was a sad aspect of that war. War is never a kind thing or an easy one and the last resort for civlized nations.

Both sides served with honour for that one, and much effort was given and much loss incurred. For now, all these years later, we can and should honour the memory of those who served and who gave their lives at the outset of that four years of trial and tragedy.

Happily all these years later, Japan is a much transformed nation and a good and strong ally of the US and we of them. Our nation is also transformed and not all to the better but regardless of that, I am proud to have these memories and to see others remember all these years later.

God Bless them all.

[Dread Knot]

A year or two at most I would wager, likewise any attack on the oil and repair facilities in a third wave (although any advantages of having destroyed the oil and repair facilities in a third wave would have been offset by the heavy loss of aircraft and experienced pilots now that the AAA crews were wide awake and very angry).


Regarding a third wave, there really wasn't anything in the Japanese carrier fleet's onboard ammo inventory sufficient to destroy the oil tanks at Pearl. First of all, there weren't merely a couple of them, but rather about forty of them. Each was a double-walled tank surrounded by its own individual 16-foot high berm. The catchment for each berm was sufficient to hold all the fuel in each tank in the event of a total rupture. So the idea of starting some conflagration that would spread from tank to tank with chains of pyrotechnics (like we see in the movies) is a complete non-starter. The Japanese would have to hit each tank. Kates would not have been very useful for the job because they were about as accurate at level bombing as a badly-flown B-17. Vals as a dive bomber more useful.

The other problem is that starting the tanks on fire and destroying the fuel was the sort of thing that would require several hits. A couple of high explosive hits to sufficiently rupture the fuel tank. Some incendiaries to start it burning. The contents of those tanks would be almost impossible to alight using HE. At usual atmospheric temperature, bunker oil has the consistency of thick caramel, and the burnability of wet wood. Each of those tanks had their own coil heater to make the fuel pumpable because of the viscosity. Each also had its own irrigation system, so getting it alight and getting it to stay alight would have been problematic.

Could the Japanese have done it? IMO, with a careful prior study of the problem, the right mix of ordnance (most of which Japanese never carried operationally) and singular dedication to that ONE purpose, they might have been able to destroy half the fuel in the PH Pacific Fleet fuel reserve.

And as you noted, elite Japanese pilot losses would start to bite for little return.

Of course I've always found the "missed Japanese opportunity to destroy the base" at Pearl something of a myth. :D

[Oberon]

Regarding a third wave, there really wasn't anything in the Japanese carrier fleet's onboard ammo inventory sufficient to destroy the oil tanks at Pearl. First of all, there weren't merely a couple of them, but rather about forty of them. Each was a double-walled tank surrounded by its own individual 16-foot high berm. The catchment for each berm was sufficient to hold all the fuel in each tank in the event of a total rupture. So the idea of starting some conflagration that would spread from tank to tank with chains of pyrotechnics (like we see in the movies) is a complete non-starter. The Japanese would have to hit each tank. Kates would not have been very useful for the job because they were about as accurate at level bombing as a badly-flown B-17. Vals as a dive bomber more useful.

The other problem is that starting the tanks on fire and destroying the fuel was the sort of thing that would require several hits. A couple of high explosive hits to sufficiently rupture the fuel tank. Some incendiaries to start it burning. The contents of those tanks would be almost impossible to alight using HE. At usual atmospheric temperature, bunker oil has the consistency of thick caramel, and the burnability of wet wood. Each of those tanks had their own coil heater to make the fuel pumpable because of the viscosity. Each also had its own irrigation system, so getting it alight and getting it to stay alight would have been problematic.

Could the Japanese have done it? IMO, with a careful prior study of the problem, the right mix of ordnance (most of which Japanese never carried operationally) and singular dedication to that ONE purpose, they might have been able to destroy half the fuel in the PH Pacific Fleet fuel reserve.

And as you noted, elite Japanese pilot losses would start to bite for little return.

Of course I've always found the "missed Japanese opportunity to destroy the base" at Pearl something of a myth. :D

I would concur, Nagumo made the right decision. I tried wargaming a third wave once back when we were playing 'A World At War' (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=233) it netted me a couple of more battleships but ultimately hurt me more through the loss of the pilots than it hurt Raptor who was able to salvage a good portion of the ships I hit.

Von Gerlach, massive respect to your cousin and to yourself, for although you lost a relative on that fateful day, you (unlike many who were never even born at the time) do not hold a grudge against the nation who conducted the act. I salute you for this. :salute:

[Admiral Von Gerlach]

Thank you, he was a fine man, and a real gentleman, One of his men observed: "It didn't take and act of Congress to make him a gentleman."

My grandfather who was a career USN naval officer as well and retied one of our last Commodores also served in the same way and when they coaled ship, (this was back when the fleet was coal burining) he donned a boiler suit and heaved coal with everyone else including all of his officers and even the ships dog, his Airdale terrier whose name was Anchor.

i had a number of other relatives in the war on both sides and many of them respected their opponents...and had the greatest respect for their courage and dedication to duty. In the aftermath of that war, the world matured and entire nations became more responsible and concerned with the individual as well as with national goals. Japan went thru a tremendous metamoprhosis but kept its inner original culture and combined it with a new resolve to advance and to improve life for everyone. We in the US did as well, and i see great progress round the world, we have still things to work on but the lives of those who died in the war and at Pearl were not spent in vain, and I think they would be proud of what we have all become.

[Highbury]

:Kaleun_Salute:

[Father Goose]

I watched Tora Tora Tora this afternoon in memory of Pearl Harbor.

I salute all that were at Pearl Harbor that fateful day and who served in WWII. :salute:

[Cybermat47]

R.I.P. all the Americans and Japanese who died in the attack.

[TorpX]

For all who suffered. :salute:







A year or two at most I would wager, likewise any attack on the oil and repair facilities in a third wave (although any advantages of having destroyed the oil and repair facilities in a third wave would have been offset by the heavy loss of aircraft and experienced pilots now that the AAA crews were wide awake and very angry). Although to be honest, even if the flat-tops had been in Pearl, it's questionable how much priority would have been placed on them over the battleships by the Japanese Naval Command, since at that time it was believed that any major battle between the USN and IJN would be between battleships and the carrier and aircraft would play a secondary supportive role.


I disagree completely. First, it doesn't matter what the Japanese Naval Command thought, Yamamoto was in command, and he knew better. I have no doubt but that if our carriers had been within his grasp, he would have hit them. They had the muscle to hit both the battleships and the carriers.

As Dread Knot pointed out, the vulnerability of POL targets isn't nearly as great as people imagine them to be. US efforts to damage Ploesti demonstrated that. Besides, if you could sink both the battleships and the carriers, it almost doesn't matter about the fuel tanks. The fuel tanks could be replaced in much less time than the BB's and CV's.

If they had sunk the aircraft carriers, the US would be forced to adopt an ineffective defensive strategy until the Essex class was up and running. The KB would be able to run wild, unopposed, for all practical purposes. Even after 1943, with 3 or 4 Essex-class ready, they would still be facing an undiminished, fully effective and confident IJN. The Essex air groups would be inexperienced and at best, "almost as good" as the opposition. And if the next big battle goes in Japan's favor, what then? The mind boggles. At some point people would want to cut their losses. No nation has the resources to sacrifice ships and sailors by the bunch, indefinitely, without blinking. It might have come down to a choice of abandoning the Pacific to continue the war in Europe, or maybe vice-versa.

[TarJak]

:salute: to all who served.

[August]

Loosing our carriers at Pearl would mean the Japanese likely capture Port Moresby and Midway Island. That would have been a major blow to our war effort.

[Jimbuna]

Loosing our carriers at Pearl would mean the Japanese likely capture Port Moresby and Midway Island. That would have been a major blow to our war effort.

Good to see someone following up on my theory :salute:

[Admiral Von Gerlach]

It seems fitting to post this thread for a wonderful home movie of the victory day in Honolulu on Hotel Street, vets will know that name...and it is marvelous to see actual images of people of that time, the oridinary people who fought the war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=CZ85j6U2Fvs

[Bilge_Rat]

the U.S.N. had 6 fast carriers in dec. 41: Lexington, Saratoga, Yorktown, Enterprise, Wasp, Hornet.

The most the IJN expected to sink were 2. The USN would never have had all 3 in port, not given the tensions in dec. 41. That would have left 4.

As it was, the USN lost 4 before 43: Lexington, Yorktown, Wasp, Hornet.

I doubt losing 2 at PH would have had a significant impact. CVs were the primadonnas of the Pacific War, but most of the real grunt work was carried out from land bases (and by U.S. submarines :ping:).

P.S. - salute to the dead of Pearl Harbour. :salute:

[August]

Good to see someone following up on my theory :salute:

Yep, Japanese Land based bombers in Port Moresby threatens Northern Australia and from Midway they can hit the Hawaiian islands. And that's just the offensives they tried with the American carriers still afloat. Imagine how bold the Japanese would have been if they were all sitting on the bottom of Pearl Harbor along with our battlewagons.

[Jimbuna]

It seems fitting to post this thread for a wonderful home movie of the victory day in Honolulu on Hotel Street, vets will know that name...and it is marvelous to see actual images of people of that time, the oridinary people who fought the war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=CZ85j6U2Fvs

Great link :cool:

Yep, Japanese Land based bombers in Port Moresby threatens Northern Australia and from Midway they can hit the Hawaiian islands. And that's just the offensives they tried with the American carriers still afloat. Imagine how bold the Japanese would have been if they were all sitting on the bottom of Pearl Harbor along with our battlewagons.

Rgr that.

[Dread Knot]

and from Midway they can hit the Hawaiian islands.

I think Midway in Japanese hands would have made for a lousy advanced base. It is less than three square miles of land, had zero fresh water, is possessed of only a relatively small harbor, and has room for but one small airfield. At best it could operate an air contingent of about 90-100 aircraft. In other words, there was absolutely no chance of using Midway as the sort of major logistics center (think Truk or Rabaul) for further operations down the Hawaiian chain. Midway was, at best, an outpost.

Second, Midway is too far from Hawaii. Even if the Japanese had been able to install an airgroup at Midway, and keep it supplied, it had no chance of exerting a powerful influence on Hawaii, since it is nearly 1,300 miles from Oahu. During the later Solomons campaign, the Japanese (who had the longest-ranged fighter in the Pacific in the A6M5 Zero) found it nearly impossible to exert air power from Rabaul to Guadalcanal, which was 650 miles away. If seized by the Japanese it likely would have shared the fate of that other US outpost, Wake Island. Isolated and bypassed by war's end with a starving garrison. Even Nimitz didn't use Midway as a base in his Central Pacific Offensive. He usually staged out of Pearl harbor.

Later in the war the US was able to build up Midway into a respectable submarine fueling depot, but only by investing the sort of heavy engineering resources, (bulldozers, dredgers, steamshovels ) that Japan always sorely lacked.

[August]

I think Midway in Japanese hands would have made for a lousy advanced base. It is less than three square miles of land, had zero fresh water, is possessed of only a relatively small harbor, and has room for but one small airfield. At best it could operate an air contingent of about 90-100 aircraft. In other words, there was absolutely no chance of using Midway as the sort of major logistics center (think Truk or Rabaul) for further operations down the Hawaiian chain. Midway was, at best, an outpost.

Second, Midway is too far from Hawaii. Even if the Japanese had been able to install an airgroup at Midway, and keep it supplied, it had no chance of exerting a powerful influence on Hawaii, since it is nearly 1,300 miles from Oahu. During the later Solomons campaign, the Japanese (who had the longest-ranged fighter in the Pacific in the A6M5 Zero) found it nearly impossible to exert air power from Rabaul to Guadalcanal, which was 650 miles away. If seized by the Japanese it likely would have shared the fate of that other US outpost, Wake Island. Isolated and bypassed by war's end with a starving garrison. Even Nimitz didn't use Midway as a base in his Central Pacific Offensive. He usually staged out of Pearl harbor.

Later in the war the US was able to build up Midway into a respectable submarine fueling depot, but only by investing the sort of heavy engineering resources, (bulldozers, dredgers, steamshovels ) that Japan always sorely lacked.

I would think that Midway would have been a good place to base bombers which would be used to strike at shipping and possibly support landings on the Hawaiian islands themselves, not as a substitute for Rabaul.

I do agree that it would have been difficult to support this base. Certainly easier though if the US carriers were sitting at the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

[Dread Knot]

I do agree that it would have been difficult to support this base. Certainly easier though if the US carriers were sitting at the bottom of Pearl Harbor.

One of the many objections the Japanese General Naval Staff raised to Yamamoto's 1942 plan to capture the atoll were logistical. The Japanese merchant marine was already overtaxed. Given that there were no resources on Midway even vaguely worth transporting home, those merchant ships supplying Midway would have to return home empty in ballast. Every mile traveled in ballast, of course, lowers the overall efficiency of Japan's merchant fleet further. Even if US carriers were sunk and gone, US submarines will still be present, so such a long supply line would require escort as well.

Another objection raised was the island's vulnerability to US 4-engined bombers operating out of Hawaii. Midway was so small that dispersing aircraft on the ground would be difficult and Zeros later in the war found the up-gunned B-17s a tough nut to crack in the air. This raised the specter of suffering outsized aircraft losses on the ground in the event of US bombing.

In short, I think Midway would have had some propaganda value for a time had the Japanese captured it. But then so did the Aleutians for a short while, until the Japanese gave up the venture there.