Geesh...Religion..

[Armistead]

As you know my mother-in-law passed. Her grandfather started the Jehovah Witness movement/church here, so obvious she was indoctrinated with that from birth and stuck to it, although I would call her witness lite. My wife has two sisters, both hated growing up that way, as did my wife really, but my wife got involved in the methodist church in her teens...So a father that really doesn't care about religion, simply, says he can't understand it, one sister a fundy baptist, one an atheist, my wife just would say a person of faith.

Anyway, the mother of course on her death had planned a JW funeral at the Kingdom Hall. My wifes two sisters decided to go against that, because they would turn her funeral into a JW salvation meeting. The father simply wants to honor the wife's wishes. It was finally decided the service would be held at the funeral home chapel with the JW pastor speaking, along with other family members. One nephew married a female Methodist minister, she was going to do a few prayers and speak for the family. They also did a video using some nice loving secular music. Well the JW elders showed up at the house to discuss the service, first they demanded that all music had to be JW music. Then they found out about the female minister and said they couldn't allow that or simply would not be involved if she spoke. If the family used another male pastor, they would have to approve his speech.
This sent the atheist daughter into a fit.....

Anyway, they tried to come to a truce, find a way to have a service with the JW leading it. This is what the mother wanted, the father wanted to fulfill her wishes, my wife trying to calm things with her two sisters. The female minister agreed to speak only as a family member, no prayers, etc...The atheist daughter made the video and said she was playing it with her secular music, the JW elders not giving at all. I had no say, but IMO, give her the funeral she asked for in her faith, everybody accept it and be happy and that's that.

Well, it ended, the JW saying all their way or no way, so the father finally told them to go and he would let his family do it.....The sad thing, is in his heart he feels he let her down.

The other night, such a wonderful death, now a funeral all stressed out over religion.....

[Skybird]

From your telling your father did the only right thing to do, me thinks. Funerals are for the living, not for the dead. When the living start politics about funerals, they show they are about power, and nothing else. Show them the door then, else they rape anyone else who maybe already struggles anyway with trying to find his personal way to accept the loss and cope with the sadness.

Even an anti-religious guy like me would not go to other people's funerals and tell them what to do and what not.

[Armistead]

Well, tough call for me, if a person has a certain faith and ask to have a funeral in that faith, you deal with it and move on. I've basically agnostic, but I've been to funerals of many faiths, most goes in and out my ear....

Anyway, I'm glad the father gave and let the sisters do it.....The JW's were just too demanding to leave the family out of the service.

[u crank]

The other night, such a wonderful death, now a funeral all stressed out over religion.....

That's really a shame. I don't mean to offend any one but I think a dead person's wishes should be carried out regardless of how we, the mourners feel. It's the least we can do to honor them. In this case the politics of religion get in the way of that. I can't stand those types. As I said, it's a shame.

Hope you are doing okay Armistead.

[Wolferz]

Sounds like some folks down your way need to put a little love in their hearts.:hmmm: God doesn't quibble about such things nor should those who profess to be his servants.:nope:

Again, condolences on the loss.

[Oberon]

JW's can be a particular group at times, some nice people in the group, but as a collective, well I guess that's the politics of the organisation of the group coming through. Rest assured though, that your Mother is out of all the earthly worries and politics, and she'll know what took place and why things happened as they did. As Skybird put it, funerals are for the living, not the dead.
My Grandfather was a spiritually curious person, he met with various groups, even scientologists but at the end of the day he was more of an agnostic than a devout believer in any one religion. His funeral had the whole preacher spiel, going on about this and that, I don't know precisely why it was a religious funeral, it was organised by my father and uncle, so I defer to them, but all through the ceremony, I could just see him leaning on the coffin, glasses perched on his forehead, pint glass mug of beer in one hand just shaking his head and chuckling at all the flowery descriptions that the vicar was giving, and that made me smile....and that, I think, is how he would have wanted it to be.

Sorry, if I rambled on a bit there, at the end of the day though, I would like to believe that when we die we gain an understanding of people that we could never have in this life, and we hold no grudges or misunderstandings against those we leave behind, even if they can't do the things we wanted them to do for what we left behind, which is at the end of the day, an empty shell. That's what I like to believe anyway, makes it a little easier to get by.

[mapuc]

condolences on the loss, my friend

I'm an artiest, nevertheless I would without no doubt fulfill the person I love last will on how he or she want his or her funeral.

If the person I love want, let say, a Celtic druid funeral, I will do everything I can to make it so.

I'm very well known to JW. Have relatives and friends that are deeply involved in their church, I almost know how they think.

Markus

[u crank]

...at the end of the day though, I would like to believe that when we die we gain an understanding of people that we could never have in this life, and we hold no grudges or misunderstandings against those we leave behind, even if they can't do the things we wanted them to do for what we left behind, which is at the end of the day, an empty shell. That's what I like to believe anyway, makes it a little easier to get by.

Very well said, Sir. :up:

[Father Goose]

That's really a shame. I don't mean to offend any one but I think a dead person's wishes should be carried out regardless of how we, the mourners feel. It's the least we can do to honor them.

I agree.
Fortunately Armistead you have a background in the Civil War...as you were on the brink of one. :timeout: Although I would not agree with the father's decision in and of itself, it was the best decision for the family...and that his wife would have been pleased.

[nikimcbee]

Let's us the wisdom of Solomon. I think you should go on vacation that weekend and totally steer clear of the family minefield.

If you're totally trapped in it, I wouldn't let the JW push you around, but that is just me.

I re-read your original post, and I wish you the best of luck. Sorry about your loss. Too many faiths involved for me.

[CaptainHaplo]

Having presided over a few of these and thus having had to deal with the "politics" of differing family desires, let me offer a suggestion if possible..

It is something very common around here. 2 services. One at either the church or funeral home chapel, the other graveside. If everyone is ok with 2 services - then the JW's can have one and the family can have one. The deceased's wishes are honored, and the family has a service that they can celebrate the life and memory of the deceased as well.

One other option is multiple services "indoors" as well.

[Buddahaid]

I dearly hope this turns out well and I'm sorry for your loss. That's all I'll say as the rest would be unprintable.

[Sailor Steve]

It sounds to me like everybody is being selfish and demanding and everybody is wrong. I think Haplo has come up with the best compromise. :sunny:

[Aktungbby]

Having presided over a few of these and thus having had to deal with the "politics" of differing family desires, let me offer a suggestion if possible..

It is something very common around here. 2 services. One at either the church or funeral home chapel, the other graveside. If everyone is ok with 2 services - then the JW's can have one and the family can have one. The deceased's wishes are honored, and the family has a service that they can celebrate the life and memory of the deceased as wellOne other option is multiple services "indoors" as well.
Ditto that: with Jewish, Catholic, Methodist, and one aunt that just donated her corpus non delecti to science, in my family; and 93 year old mom about to pass over, go with the formal expressed wishes of the deceased first(JW) and a multi-deistic graveside service for the family(well catered of of course!) We do fabu Irish wakes and I'm tempted to throw one for myself so I can enjoy my own party. As with Skybird: funerals are for the living; so do both and cover all bases! As with my PM: blessings and condolences.

[Buddahaid]

A most rational approach from cooler heads than mine.

It's so high ya can't get over it, but it's not so wide ya can't get around it. :woot:

[Armistead]

Having presided over a few of these and thus having had to deal with the "politics" of differing family desires, let me offer a suggestion if possible..

It is something very common around here. 2 services. One at either the church or funeral home chapel, the other graveside. If everyone is ok with 2 services - then the JW's can have one and the family can have one. The deceased's wishes are honored, and the family has a service that they can celebrate the life and memory of the deceased as well.

One other option is multiple services "indoors" as well.

My wife actually floated that idea and it almost worked. I think the oldest sister that is atheist dealt with a harder JW church, because the grandfather still ran it, by the time my wife was around 8 he died. The older sister states how badly the church treated her as a teen. She is not only an atheist, but truly hates any and all religion and faith. Anyway, my wife got the JW church to agree to do a small service for her mom next church, when her sister found out, she called the JW pastor and said she would be there and it had to be so and so. Anyway, the pastor told her they simply wouldn't hold any service. My wife called him and he did say that they would honor her in time and he would see the father next week and talk to him.

Anyway, the father too old and weak to fight the two sisters that are bound to have it their way and put on a big show for everyone. Lets hope it all runs smoothly for his sake....

[Buddahaid]

It sounds to me like everybody is being selfish and demanding and everybody is wrong. I think Haplo has come up with the best compromise. :sunny:

It seems that that still presents a problem which is sad for the father. The sisters are indeed proving Sky's point about funerals in a mean way. They should bury the hatchet long enough to bury mom. Hoping for the best.

[Father Goose]

Anyway, the father too old and weak to fight the two sisters that are bound to have it their way and put on a big show for everyone. Lets hope it all runs smoothly for his sake....

Is all this taking place in a ice storm? :eek:

[Armistead]

Is all this taking place in a ice storm? :eek:

Suppose to hit tomorrow night....., but we don't start until 5.. Will be interesting, family doing service with a methodist female, but a fundy baptist the first prayer. Certainly, many of her JW friends will be there....then the big mouth atheist sister...One of the grandsons is a concert saxophonist, look forward to him, he's amazing...

I think once it's start and everyones there, hopefully religion will be put aside and maturity will win and we can celebrate her life.

[Jimbuna]

Always carry out the wishes of the deceased wherever possible.

Family conflicts can come at the most inappropriate times unfortunately.

[fireftr18]

Armistead, first, condolences on the loss.

The title you gave, I originally thought it was going to be some senseless rant against religion in general. Curiosity got the best of me and I read the post. I worked with many JW's and they are that way. Their belief system is so tight, that they honestly believe that their's is the only way. There is no room for discussion, nor admitting wrong. It's a shame that family members argued over how a funeral should be done. To me, the father should have had any all authority to make the decision. JW's church elders should not even have been there, then again, I have no respect for the JW church anyway. I'll add the family to my prayer list that they learn to get along better and all goes well for the services.

[BrucePartington]

First of all, my condolences.

Anything I thought about the conflict you described has already been said.
I thought about quoting the ones I liked best, but then realized I'd have to quote *all* previous posts :D
I'd think you have two options:
a) let them sort it out;
b) play Ambassador, try and mediate a compromise. The "two separate services" concept *should* please everyone. If anyone will not take it, then they do not deserve to be there, period

From personal experience, JWs perceive their members as actual family, more so than actual blood family, hence the "ferocity" shown trying to have the service their way. They consider their faith far more relevant than actual family ties. They do not allow life saving blood transfusions, so I imagine they scorn DNA ties.
And the atheist sister, I'm willing to bet the reason she's an atheist and fended the JWs off, is precisely because of knowing them so well. If I hadn't had a JW grandfather, I would probably be a Catholic today.

I know this first hand because of my early life.
Since and because my father died in 1968, I lived with my mother and maternal grandparents in their house.
My grandmother was a true Catholic, but, my grandfather, during my mother's teenage years, converted to JW.
Because my GM refused to join him in his new found faith, they immediately moved to separate bedrooms, such was my GF religious inflexibility, so typical of JW.

[d@rk51d3]

Condolences for your loss Arimstead. I'm sure it will all work out in the end. There's no reason why both parties can't "have their cake and eat it too", as highlighted in prevoius posts. The stresses felt by all probably exaggerate their emotions too, and make for tensions that wouldn't normally exist.

Thoughts and prayers with you and your family.



Family conflicts can come at the most inappropriate times unfortunately.

Sounds like Christmas, eh?

[swamprat69er]

I'm sorry for your loss.

[Armistead]

As hoped, the service went very well. My wife's nephew married the Methodist female minister, a Hatfield from W. Va, direct great great granddaughter of old Devil Anse himself. She was great, simply country girl, but so skilled with words...

We were able to plan with the JW's to do another memorial and not telling my wife's two sisters....

[d@rk51d3]

That's great news, and I'm sure it takes a load off.

Don't sweat it over the next service either. Despite all the online "artistic licence" you get with peoples "experiences" with JW's, most people come out pleasantly surprised when they find out it ain't the kook-fest they were expecting. :know:

[Father Goose]

As hoped, the service went very well. My wife's nephew married the Methodist female minister, a Hatfield from W. Va, direct great great granddaughter of old Devil Anse himself. She was great, simply country girl, but so skilled with words...

I'm glad everything worked out.
The Methodist female minister...a good ol' Confederate gal. Can't beat that! :yeah:

[Jimbuna]

As hoped, the service went very well. My wife's nephew married the Methodist female minister, a Hatfield from W. Va, direct great great granddaughter of old Devil Anse himself. She was great, simply country girl, but so skilled with words...

We were able to plan with the JW's to do another memorial and not telling my wife's two sisters....

Pleased it went well :cool:

[Armistead]

I'm glad everything worked out.
The Methodist female minister...a good ol' Confederate gal. Can't beat that! :yeah:

She was good, she did a story about how the world revolved around Grandmas
recliner every Sunday. Her grandmother inherited the Hatfield property that is the museum today, but you still have to walk to get to it. My wife's nephew that married her did a great job on the sax. Grandma bought him first one and got him into music.

[AVGWarhawk]

At the end of the day we are all naked before the Lord. Religion and faith. Two different things in my book. But, the husband has the ultimate say IMO. If his wife of some odd years wanted a JW service then that is what she should have received. Her husband to assure it was followed out. Just as he was her cover in life it does not stop there in death. For those that disagree can go to the movies instead.

[BrucePartington]

As hoped, the service went very well. My wife's nephew married the Methodist female minister, a Hatfield from W. Va, direct great great granddaughter of old Devil Anse himself. She was great, simply country girl, but so skilled with words...

We were able to plan with the JW's to do another memorial and not telling my wife's two sisters....
:yeah: Glad things seem to be working out nicely.

[em2nought]

The living can bugger off, I'd give her the funeral she wanted even if I didn't personally care for it. Hmm, jeez hope I don't have to deal with something like this coming from my sisters, both of whom I'm pretty well fed up with already. :nope:

[em2nought]

We were able to plan with the JW's to do another memorial and not telling my wife's two sisters....

Cool! :yeah: